Okay, so the Western version can now have the epilepsy filter switched off.....but...

[Mysticpuma]

......does this mean that having an option to switch the Filter off will then switch off in-game details that were considered the reason for first introducing it?

So "Switch-on" Frame-rates suffer but all effects are enabled, "Switch-Off" and Epilepsy Filter is Disabled but so are lots of the effects?

Just asking if this is what the Option will mean?

Good news that it will be optional, but what does the option do to the game after switching it off?

Cheers, MP

Posted by Luthier for those who didn't see the announcement that the Filter will be optional;

From Luthier:

"Hello everyone,

Once again I want to point out that a lot of your earlier anger was misplaced. Actually, our colleagues at Ubisoft are extremely interested in making this game a success, they care about our opinion and yours, and everyone we work with there is understanding and cordial and more than willing to listen and change their mind.

Having said that, I'm glad to announce that the debacle has been resolved.

We will be making the filter optional, however turned on by default. And we will be adding a large epilepsy warning to our splash screen. "

[Tvrdi]

......does this mean that having an option to switch the Filter off will then switch off in-game details that were considered the reason for first introducing it?

So "Switch-on" Frame-rates suffer but all effects are enabled, "Switch-Off" and Epilepsy Filter is Disabled but so are lots of the effects?

Just asking if this is what the Option will mean?

Good news that it will be optional, but what does the option do to the game after switching it off?

Cheers, MP

As I understood, anti epilepsy filter reduces or shuts some effects (prop effects etc.)...with filter set to OFF those effects are back....

[Vevster]

As I understood, anti epilepsy filter reduces or shuts some effects (prop effects etc.)...with filter set to OFF those effects are back....

That's whatI understood too.

The team ddn't have time to work on those between the time the impact of the filter was announced & yesterday, imo.

[klem]

Does this also mean that 1C will not now be dumbing down those effects we would get when the filter is Off? Or is the long-game to dumb down the effects anyway?

Luthier?

[svanen]

Where did you read this, is it official somewhere?

[adonys]

Guys, you need the facts, first before anything, and the facts at this moment are the following:

- MG (Maddox Games) started to address epilepsy issues in IL2 at UBI's request
- they've put out of the game (previously announced as for good, as in forever) some of them (there's no list of this, just Luthier's statement, but it included the cockpit view propeller's arc) - in both IL2 CoD and BoB
- at the point MG understood there's no time to address them all before release, they've stopped addressing the effects individually and started to put up the full screen filter - in both IL2 CoD and BoB

- after we've found out, and due to rampage on the forums, Luthier said 1C version BoB will accept an optional filter (or even removing it for good) and stop individually addressing effects to meet epilepsy requirements, but the UBI version CoD will have the filter permanent (or at least until all effects will be addressed individually, making the filter obsolete)
- Luthier also said that it might re-add/un-cripple the list of individual effects already modified to meet the epilepsy requirement in the 1C's BoB version before turning to the filter solution (yet, it might not equals for sure)
- after more ranting UBI sais it will make the filter optional

BUT

- making the filter optional doesn't mean they won't further continue to address (read cripple) effects individually in order to meet epilepsy requirements
- and even if they stop further individually addressing the effects, it also doesn't mean they will re-add/un-cripple the already modified effects crippled to meet the epilepsy requirements


We need an official clarification of these two problems from UBI/Luthier in order to consider the CoD at par with BoB

Of course, all of the above assuming UBI is not just lying to us in order to not drop the launch sales. We can only check this in time, by comparing the visuals from the two different editions (Cod vs BoB)..

[adonys]

We already knew that statement, and it doesn't mean anything, please see my above post (and add it to your first one on this thread, to keep all the relevant info in the first post of the thread, as it might grow and people won't read it all).

[Mysticpuma]

As I understood, anti epilepsy filter reduces or shuts some effects (prop effects etc.)...with filter set to OFF those effects are back....

It gets more complex though as the Epilepsy Filter does (I read it the same way you did) 'smooth' the Epilepsy inducing effects, but switching it off would bring them back....with possibility of a huge lawsuit for Ubi/1C.

The reason it was there was that they were worried (we were told) of possible Lawsuits, but now a Splash Screen will suffice. Turning the Filter Off means that you agree to being affected?

Now, if it was such a huge issue before release and the filter had to be installed, then I worry that other measures may be needed to calm the lawyers and so disabling the Epilepsy Filter, I presume (note "I presume" as I don't know so asking for clarification) would mean that all effects are enabled including the ones that could induce the possible litigation for causing seizures.

So I just wonder if disabling the Filter will lead to a toning down of the effects (for litigation safety) but enabling the filter smooths the effects but in-a-way reduces them?

Confusing for me. So the OP is "does disabling the filter enable everything with particles, smoke, effects, lighting, propellers all left unmolested by the filter?"

Cheers, MP

[cato_larsen]

From the statement you can read on thing.... Well many words of course. One should be correct when talking to the majority here. One thing.....
Filter is optional and can be turned off. And optional setting means you have it on or off, sometimes it mean more as well, like a medium setting, but in this case, on or off.

A filter works as..... well. a filter, it filterate something in or out or on or off or things in that line... So with the filter ON some effects or issues or something will be filerated away, like pornographic filter for your kids machine or your machine, as I am sure some in here are not old enough to have such filter off.

Sometimes it is very important to have the correct info from developers or anyone who is selling stuff or whatever they do, but in this case the answer has been given.

With it turned off at default, and a message with warnings, and the way to turn it on is actually in the .INI itself, people would have to actually turn it on by altering a :INI file, in wich case they know what they are doing and have been given a warning to what can happen.

There is a warning on microwave ovens, atleast in USA, where it says you should not dry your pets in there as they will explode and die. If you by any chance still do it, you cannot file a lawsuit agains the developers. Same thing applies here.

[Vevster]

We already knew that statement, and it doesn't mean anything.


So an official statement that the filter will be optional for the western version doesn't mean anything, while a statement some days ago from the same person that the filter would be removed from the russian version and kept for the western version meant something?

Doesn't seem strange to you?

[PE_Tigar]

Yep, Cato seems to be right. But again, an explanation from Luthier would be in place.

[robtek]

Selective credibility! :-D

[adonys]

Oh god, nobody seems to really understand.. Ok, let's do it the hard way:

We have this awesome propeller blade arc visible from inside the cockpit, right?

As we've seen in WW2 footage, the propeller view is like a translucid (like in transparent, but not invisible) circle seen all the time while not at very low rpm, with some blurred propeller blades rotating at slower speeds inside/over the translucid arc, sometime even counter-rotating (an optical illusion seen at rpms which would have the propeller move just a little less than full 360 degrees during a single frame, hence the illusion of counter-rotating). Everyone with me until now?!

Now, UBI comes and says: we can't have these blurred propeller blades rotating, or even counter-rotating, inside the propeller's translucid arc, it will cause headache and might trigger epilepsy, remove it.

MG removed them from the game. Removed the blurred slowly rotating/counter-rorating propeller blades for good (like in removing them from the game, and deleting the resources needed to create them), and just kept only the translucid arc.

After 100 x above, they've decided is counterproductive to fix all the individual requests, and added an epilepsy filter.

Do you have the slightest idea what that (post-processing) filter is? it is NOT like a list of effects which are allowed when it is on, and not rendered when it is off. it is NOT a list of effectes rendered like this when it is on, and like that when it is off.

The filter just grabs the image which should go to the screen, and analysis it pixel by pixel with the previously image sent to the screen. if the difference between the luminosity of two pixels is too big, it will tone down it in the new image is preparing to send to the screen.

Do you understand now what "epilepsy filter removal means"? it means only it will stop analyse and modify the rendered image, and send it as it is to the screen.

That won't put back the already crippled effects in, as the already removed inside cockpit slowly rotating/counter-rotating blurred propeller's blades. That won't put back ANY of the individual already removed/toned down/crippled effects.

Even more, it won't mean UBI might not request to have other/more effects removed/crippled/toned down (in order to limit the worst of them if the epilepsy filter is taken off)..

Do you understand now?

[cato_larsen]

No, and explanation is in order :)


Ok, I take it you have info that it is like this and so I am sorry to have mis-informed other people with my scribble earlier.

Thank you for clearing this up.

[adonys]

Ti wasn't directed at you, cato. I just gave up trying to explain all over the place, while nobody seems to understand exactly what this filter is like.

I just made another thread, I really hope to clarify it once and for all.

And, of course, official UBI/Luthier answer to it would be good.

[Vevster]

Do you understand now?

Yes, a lot of might / might not in your post, and lot of assumptions


You say Ubi asked for individual effects to be taken of, assumption. They tested the game on standard seizure tests; failed, go back to dev.

You assume again that the dev team removed some effects, nothing from Luthier hints to that. He did say that they would have to do that in the future if Ubi didn't change its stance on the whole epilepsy thing.
Since Ubi changed it and said OK, make the removal of the filter an option, put a warning, no need to rework the effects.

Think: why would the filter stay, even as an option, if the effects had to be reworked? That would be a double barrier.

[robtek]

Oh god, nobody seems to really understand.. Ok, let's do it the hard way:

We have this awesome propeller blade arc visible from inside the cockpit, right?

As we've seen in WW2 footage, the propeller view is like a translucid (like in transparent, but not invisible) circle seen all the time while not at very low rpm, with some blurred propeller blades rotating at slower speeds inside/over the translucid arc, sometime even counter-rotating (an optical illusion seen at rpms which would have the propeller move just a little less than full 360 degrees during a single frame, hence the illusion of counter-rotating). Everyone with me until now?!

Now, UBI comes and says: we can't have these blurred propeller blades rotating, or even counter-rotating, inside the propeller's translucid arc, it will cause headache and might trigger epilepsy, remove it.

MG removed them from the game. Removed the blurred slowly rotating/counter-rorating propeller blades for good (like in removing them from the game, and deleting the resources needed to create them), and just kept only the translucid arc.

.....

Afaik it is you who doesnt understand.

In this simulation the real view is simulated!!!
Not the view of a camera!!
So no slow counterrotating props or such stuff!
Except maybe in a track where a camera is simulated.

[adonys]

Yes, a lot of might / might not in your post, and lot of assumptions


You say Ubi asked for individual effects to be taken of, assumption. They tested the game on standard seizure tests; failed, go back to dev.

You assume again that the dev team removed some effects, nothing from Luthier hints to that. He did say that they would have to do that in the future if Ubi didn't change its stance on the whole epilepsy thing.
Since Ubi changed it and said OK, make the removal of the filter an option, put a warning, no need to rework the effects.

Think: why would the filter stay, even as an option, if the effects had to be reworked? That would be a double barrier.

You can actually read Luthier's statements and explanations on this russian forum (http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=192). I haven't made up anything from this, they are Luthier's explanations. You are the one making assumptions in here, not me, sorry.

Also, you did not understand that after modifying the effects for a while, they saw can't address them all (as Luthier said, the whole damn game and almost everything from it could potentially cause epilepsy), they've left the already modified/removed ones as they were, and added a filter on the final rendered image, as a quick solution for launch (as UBI said there won't be any UBI launch without all the potential epilepsy causing effects removed from the game).

Luthier also said this filter will be removed once ALL epilepsy causing effects will be modified individually (after weeks/months of painful work). His words, not mine.

[adonys]

Afaik it is you who doesnt understand.

In this simulation the real view is simulated!!!
Not the view of a camera!!
So no slow counterrotating props or such stuff!
Except maybe in a track where a camera is simulated.

The effect is not visible only on camera, I just gave WW2 footage as an example, as most of us saw it in there, and not in real life. But the effect is perfectly observable by looking with your own eyes, and from Luthier's words, it was modeled into the game (and then removed as part of UBI's anti epilepsy requests).

The closest alike effect would be the one caused by the spikes from a car wheels' plastic protectors. At certain rotation speed, you'll have the optical illusion taht the wheel is actually rotating backwards.

You, sir, are wrong!

[Vevster]

The effect is not visible only on camera, I just gave WW2 footage as an example,

:grin::grin:

[klem]

Guys, you need the facts, first before anything, and the facts at this moment are the following:............
..............
BUT

- making the filter optional doesn't mean they won't further continue to address (read cripple) effects individually in order to meet epilepsy requirements
- and even if they stop further individually addressing the effects, it also doesn't mean they will re-add/un-cripple the already modified effects crippled to meet the epilepsy requirements


We need an official clarification of these two problems from UBI/Luthier in order to consider the CoD at par with BoB...............

Well the BUT's don't make sense and I don't mean you don't make sense adonys.

What is the point of having a filter if the effects are to be removed, thereby reducing the game graphically way below Oleg's and our desire for CoD to be the best that it can be (and was!)? In any case other posts have Luthier saying that it would be impossible to cover all epilepsy risks in the graphics effects and sequences.

The filter is an unfortunate necessity for those that may suffer fits due to epilepsy but I doubt if they would want the world to have less than it should due to their difficulties. Yes, it becomes a choice between treating everyone equally with a sub-standard product which would still possibly (probably?) pose a risk to epilepsy sufferers or letting it be what it is supposed to be. I have a relative who is disabled by severe back problems and cannot travel on a bus at even modest speeds. Should all buses be forced to run at 5mph just in case she gets on one? Of course not, we have to make our own arrangements and put up with it, just as she is excluded from enjoying the simple walks that most people do.

What are the graphical effects we would lose? Who knows? What are the effects and sequences that would cause a fit? Who can tell or predict it?

Too much has gone into this game to get it up and running at the level it is supposed to be, put it back where it belongs and keep the optional filter.

[Winger]

As I understood, anti epilepsy filter reduces or shuts some effects (prop effects etc.)...with filter set to OFF those effects are back....

Here is what i understood:

What has been stated is that the filter compares 2 frames for huge contrasting areas (potential flickering) and reduces the contrast in this areas. This comparisation process naturally takes up processing power and takes time thus causing latencies. With the filter turned off the game is just what it should be. No need to worry about missing visual effects that may have gone with the filter... Ubi (or rather 1C) simply decided to handle us customers as the marture beings that we are leaving the decision on to use or not to use this filter to us like they should have done in the first place.

Winger

[MD_Wild_Weasel]

so again this is pretty much ubi propaganda poppycock. Makes me laugh. :confused: The trouble is these days there is so much money involved in games these days that the consumer ends up with a box of twoddle. I Respect Oleg and gang for not rushing his masterpeice nor bowing to pressures of these numpties. Like the honourable gentlemen said before ,learn russian, that way you get COD how it was meant to be

[Vevster]

so again this is pretty much ubi propaganda poppycock. Makes me laugh. :confused:

More likely, this is pretty paranoia from some here.

[Tvrdi]

Here is what i understood:

What has been stated is that the filter compares 2 frames for huge contrasting areas (potential flickering) and reduces the contrast in this areas. This comparisation process naturally takes up processing power and takes time thus causing latencies. With the filter turned off the game is just what it should be. No need to worry about missing visual effects that may have gone with the filter... Ubi (or rather 1C) simply decided to handle us customers as the marture beings that we are leaving the decision on to use or not to use this filter to us like they should have done in the first place.

Winger

yes but like I said with filter ON your loosing some of the visual effects I (like prop effects)..they are less noticable or not noticable at all..

[Space Communist]

Oh god, nobody seems to really understand.. Ok, let's do it the hard way:

We have this awesome propeller blade arc visible from inside the cockpit, right?

As we've seen in WW2 footage, the propeller view is like a translucid (like in transparent, but not invisible) circle seen all the time while not at very low rpm, with some blurred propeller blades rotating at slower speeds inside/over the translucid arc, sometime even counter-rotating (an optical illusion seen at rpms which would have the propeller move just a little less than full 360 degrees during a single frame, hence the illusion of counter-rotating). Everyone with me until now?!

Now, UBI comes and says: we can't have these blurred propeller blades rotating, or even counter-rotating, inside the propeller's translucid arc, it will cause headache and might trigger epilepsy, remove it.

MG removed them from the game. Removed the blurred slowly rotating/counter-rorating propeller blades for good (like in removing them from the game, and deleting the resources needed to create them), and just kept only the translucid arc.

After 100 x above, they've decided is counterproductive to fix all the individual requests, and added an epilepsy filter.

Do you have the slightest idea what that (post-processing) filter is? it is NOT like a list of effects which are allowed when it is on, and not rendered when it is off. it is NOT a list of effectes rendered like this when it is on, and like that when it is off.

The filter just grabs the image which should go to the screen, and analysis it pixel by pixel with the previously image sent to the screen. if the difference between the luminosity of two pixels is too big, it will tone down it in the new image is preparing to send to the screen.

Do you understand now what "epilepsy filter removal means"? it means only it will stop analyse and modify the rendered image, and send it as it is to the screen.

That won't put back the already crippled effects in, as the already removed inside cockpit slowly rotating/counter-rotating blurred propeller's blades. That won't put back ANY of the individual already removed/toned down/crippled effects.

Even more, it won't mean UBI might not request to have other/more effects removed/crippled/toned down (in order to limit the worst of them if the epilepsy filter is taken off)..

Do you understand now?


I am sorry but you quite clearly do not understand. There were no effects removed (except possibly this prop effect?), they simply put on this filter, which has a blanket effect. Everything I have seen seems to indicate that even with the filter on there is almost no noticeable effect on the visuals. however it doesn't matter since we are going to be able to turn it off and have the game in its original format. Even if they did remove the prop effect there is no way it would be irreversible.

It boggles my mind how negative some people are. We have zero evidence that Ubi would want anything else at all done to the game in the name of epilepsy since they have agreed that having the filter on by default and a adding a splash screen are sufficient to avoid legal trouble. Seriously how do people with this bleak an outlook even get up in the morning?

[mazex]

Afaik it is you who doesnt understand.

In this simulation the real view is simulated!!!
Not the view of a camera!!
So no slow counterrotating props or such stuff!
Except maybe in a track where a camera is simulated.

+1

IRL you don't see the prop...

[Flying Pencil]

They tested the game on standard seizure tests;

Harding test?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harding_test
http://hardingtest.com/

[Vevster]

Harding test?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harding_test
http://hardingtest.com/


Probably, dunno

[Meek]

I reckon they should just keep in all the seizure-inducing effects and keep the optional filter, the 0.01% of people can bitch and moan about it until the world ends.