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timholt
03-20-2011, 03:00 AM
Pardon my ignorance but; I have just pre-ordered the collectors version to get all the goodies as well as the game. As I (don't) understand from what I have read (but unable to find an answer to this question), will I have to down load and use Steam to access the updates to COD?

Also, I am assuming because the game can be downloaded - once installed from the disc it will not be necessary to use the disc again after the initial installation?

602Sqn.McLean
03-20-2011, 03:15 AM
I too purchased the collectors version. After reading your post, timholt, I'm now wondering the same thing. Only a few days to go and I guess we'll find out. Can't wait.

Space Communist
03-20-2011, 04:32 AM
Well there's nothing about the game being on steam that prevents it from being patched manually. The only question is whether or not Oleg and crew decide to release patches as file downloads as well as updates through steam. Certainly that was the case in IL-2, but obviously it was only added to steam much later. It's not clear whether or not running the disc version through steam would need the disc in the drive. Generally steam would not require it, however this game does not use steam DRM, but this solidshield business, so I really don't know how that works. Oh and most likely you will need to use steam to register the game to play it at all, though after that you could possibly play without loading it. Certainly you can play without being online

Anyway once it's on steam there isn't much reason to patch anything manually. If for some reason you really don't want an update you can disable automatic downloads.

timholt
03-20-2011, 05:17 AM
Thanks SC. I managed to find some more info and it definately looks like Steam is a requirement to run it, so I may as well go and register now I guess

Feuerfalke
03-20-2011, 07:11 AM
It seems that you need STEAM anyway. At least for playing online.

Les
03-20-2011, 05:08 PM
Pardon my ignorance but; I have just pre-ordered the collectors version to get all the goodies as well as the game. As I (don't) understand from what I have read (but unable to find an answer to this question), will I have to down load and use Steam to access the updates to COD?

Also, I am assuming because the game can be downloaded - once installed from the disc it will not be necessary to use the disc again after the initial installation?

Nobody knows. That's the most honest answer. Even the developers, the Steam users, and the publishers public relations people don't know all the ins and outs and possible results of the combination of elements being put together for this release.

While a lot of the answers flying around are correct in themselves, they're all still predicated on assumptions about what the final form of the released version of the game will be.

What that means is, the only definite answers that can be given to your questions must first be prefaced with 'if'. But hardly anyone's doing that. Sure, a lot of the assumptions being made might turn out to be correct, but they're still assumptions.

Under these circumstances, wait and see is, imo, the best advice. That's largely being ignored though because people want to make decisions about what version of the game to get before it comes out.

All that said, here are my opinions.

No you won't have to use the disk again after installing the game from there. I say this because, as far as I understand, neither Steam nor SolidShield use that DRM method, and for other more sort of circumstantial reasons (eg. it's generally not done nowadays and there's been no mention of it among other things.)

As for whether or not you'll need Steam for accessing updates to the boxed version of the game, based solely on what we've actually been told and not what we otherwise 'know', no, you won't. The only official statements that have been made (and which still have to be taken with a grain of salt for the reasons I mentioned in the first paragraph) state that the boxed version of the game only uses Steamworks for match-making.

Just to clarify that, Steamworks is a range of game development tools and features that game developers can incorporate into their games to enhance the functionality and usability of those games. 'Steam' is in effect a collective term for those separate features, and a term that's been co-opted by the end-users to refer in most cases to the DRM, online retail, publishing and community range of Steamworks tools.

So, again, going solely by what we've actually been told, while the downloadable version(s?) of the game will make greater use of the range of Steamworks features, and be what is generally known as a 'Steam game', the boxed version will only use a subset of the Steam tools that relate specificially to the online multiplayer matchmaking features of the game.

People are assuming you won't be able to use those built-in Steamworks matchmaking features without having a Steam account, and they may be right. And from the little I know of how it works, I'd say they probably are right. But they still don't know if it will be possible to play the game without using those Steamworks matchmaking features, either offline, or online using non-Steam third-party tools/programs.

The fact that Oleg has said you'll need Steam to play online does strongly suggest that even if you do use non-Steam third-party applications for online multiplayer gaming, you'll still need to install the Steam matchmaking features that are part and parcel of the games built-in multi-player functionality.

Even if that is the case though, it's still possible you'll be able to install the boxed version of the game (with it's built-in Steamworks matchmaking code) but not have to register with Steam or have a Steam account, or maybe (but I doubt it) have to install the rest of the Steam stuff until you're prompted to do so after trying to use the games default server browser.

I could be totally wrong, but I can't see why it can't be done like that. In that way it would be very similar to 'Yuplay' and 'Games For Windows Live'. Wherein you can play the game off-line without any interruptions, but as soon as you click in the menu screen to play the multiplayer online, you're prompted to sign up and make an account with 'Yuplay' or 'GFWL' before you can proceed.

The difference between that and what I'd ideally like to see (and in all likelihood won't), is that 'Yuplay' and 'GFWL' live install their little applications during the rest of your game's installation, whereas I'd like to be able to choose whether I install them or not. I'd rather be given a prompt when I try to play through the games built-in server browser, to re-insert the game disk and then install the 'Yuplay' or 'GFWL' or 'Steam' multi-player enabling software. I personally don't mind having the game install the version of the multiplayer code that must be there to make use of 'Yuplay' or 'GFWL' or 'Steam' should I decide to use them (if you can see the difference there), but I don't want those third party utilities being installed somewhere by default, just waiting for me to sign up with them.

Anyway, that's my take on it.

Nobody knows for sure. Just wait and see. And if you must speculate, make sure you have fun doing so.

Thee_oddball
03-20-2011, 06:12 PM
Even if that is the case though, it's still possible you'll be able to install the boxed version of the game (with it's built-in Steamworks matchmaking code) but not have to register with Steam or have a Steam account, or maybe (but I doubt it) have to install the rest of the Steam stuff until you're prompted to do so after trying to use the games default server browser.

.

Peer To Peer Multi-Player Authentication/Authorization verifies the unique ID of a user (their SteamID), determines if that user is allowed access to the game

https://partner.steamgames.com/documentation/api

Les
03-20-2011, 07:07 PM
Peer To Peer Multi-Player Authentication/Authorization verifies the unique ID of a user (their SteamID), determines if that user is allowed access to the game

https://partner.steamgames.com/documentation/api

Yes, that's quoted from the section pertaining to the peer to peer feature of Steamworks.

All we've been told though is "The game only uses SteamWorks for match-making..." The section pertaining to that Match-making feature is also listed on the page you linked to.

It seems highly likely one will require the other, and I have no doubt using any of these features will in fact require having a unique Steam ID.

But the question remains, in my mind at least, whether or not a boxed version of the game can be played offline, leaving the built-in multiplayer features effectively unavailable. Or put another way, the question remains whether setting up a Steam account will be required whether one decides to use the built-in multiplayer features or not. And I haven't seen an answer to that.

Which leads to the other question of, if an active Steam account isn't required until after you try to play using the built-in multiplayer browser, can you decide to never use the built-in (Steam integrated) multiplayer browser and use a third party application which lists game servers that don't require Steam ID's and which themselves aren't connected to the Steam service?

The Steam downloaded games I've played (offline only) in the past, haven't required me to sign up with the online services included in the game (Yuplay and Games For Windows Live) unless I want to use those services. They have installed themselves automatically along with the rest of the game, but they have remained unactivated and all their features have remained unused, beyond the pop-up that asks me to register with them and activate an account with them if I want to play online. The question remains whether or not the boxed versions of CloDo will work the same way. I haven't tried to play online with any of those other games by using separate third party server-browsers and by-passing the built-in ones, so I don't know anything about that.

JAMF
03-20-2011, 07:25 PM
The Steam downloaded games I've played (offline only) in the past, haven't required me to sign up with the online services included in the game (Yuplay and Games For Windows Live) unless I want to use those services.
For Dirt, GfWL was needed, or else progress isn't saved.

Les
03-20-2011, 07:39 PM
For Dirt, GfWL was needed, or else progress isn't saved.

GFWL was included in GTA4 as well. With that, there were only some things that weren't saved. You could still do basic game saves and get through the game without GFWL, but you couldn't save the sorts of things that would have to be kept on the GFWL cloud service. (eg. you couldn't save a collection of stolen cars in a virtual garage in-game, only the car you were using at the time when you did a regular game save).

Steam also uses a cloud-type service, but I can't see why it would be essential, even for saving your progress through a campaign. If they've integrated Steam achievements and ranking up etc. you'd obviously need a Steam ID to have that data saved on the Steam cloud, but I can't see why it would be compulsory. And again, those Steamworks features are distinct from the match-making feature, which is the only Steamworks feature that's been confirmed as being part of the boxed version.

Fritz X
03-20-2011, 08:08 PM
Steam also uses a cloud-type service, but I can't see why it would be essential, even for saving your progress through a campaign.

I strongly have to disagree on this. Especially when it comes to a game like CoD with lots of setup options for controllers and graphical settings, I find Steam Cloud very helpful, since it also stores these setup files online, so if you ever switch your machine (or lose the content of your HD for whatever reason), your preferred settings are automatically applied again on the new computer.

You can of course deactivate this if you want to, but I wouldn't be able to think of a single reason to do so...

Les
03-20-2011, 08:33 PM
I strongly have to disagree on this. Especially when it comes to a game like CoD with lots of setup options for controllers and graphical settings, I find Steam Cloud very helpful, since it also stores these setup files online, so if you ever switch your machine (or lose the content of your HD for whatever reason), your preferred settings are automatically applied again on the new computer.

You can of course deactivate this if you want to, but I wouldn't be able to think of a single reason to do so...

I didn't know they did that.

Yes, I agree, under those circumstances it would be easier to not have to manually re-configure your settings or copy and paste config files (if you still have them).

Edit - Looks like not all games support Steam's cloud saving feature, here's hoping CloDo does.

Fritz X
03-20-2011, 09:05 PM
^ Yup, not all games do. According to CoD's Steam Store page however, the game will :)

JAMF
03-20-2011, 09:52 PM
GFWL was included in GTA4 as well. With that, there were only some things that weren't saved. You could still do basic game saves and get through the game without GFWL, but you couldn't save the sorts of things that would have to be kept on the GFWL cloud service. (eg. you couldn't save a collection of stolen cars in a virtual garage in-game, only the car you were using at the time when you did a regular game save).

IC. I was mainly pointing out that it depends what the game developers do with the options. GfWL in Dirt's case doesn't store any progress locally, so it doesn't compare and update online details, after connection has been re-established.

So it all depends on what the developers decide to do with a tool; limit/hamper offline enjoyment or improve online service and roaming freedom?

timholt
03-20-2011, 09:52 PM
Les,
thank you very much for your lengthy and informative response(s).

The swamp is getting shallower but still murky for the likes of me. I find it hard to comprehend why this is still so unclear this close to release.

Methinks the whole enchilada involved with this release is sadly lacking in marketing skills.

However, that aside, as a IL2 buff and offline player (with a brief unsatisfactory on line experience) since the original game was released, my hat goes off to Oleg and crew for what will be another creme de la creme of flight simulation for many years to come I would envisage.

Gimpymoo
03-21-2011, 01:00 AM
You will 100% DEFINITELY NOT require the disc to be in drive to play the game once it is installed.

GUARANTEED.

Also, your product key will also be saved onto Steam so you can lose the disc/product key and still be able to play the game and reinstall it as many times as you wish.

Regarding updates/patches, updates will be downloaded/installed automatically without you having to do anything :)

There has NEVER been a Steamworks title which requires you to install updates "manually".

Les
03-21-2011, 01:19 AM
Les,
thank you very much for your lengthy and informative response(s).

The swamp is getting shallower but still murky for the likes of me. I find it hard to comprehend why this is still so unclear this close to release.

Methinks the whole enchilada involved with this release is sadly lacking in marketing skills.

However, that aside, as a IL2 buff and offline player (with a brief unsatisfactory on line experience) since the original game was released, my hat goes off to Oleg and crew for what will be another creme de la creme of flight simulation for many years to come I would envisage.

No worries mate, it is hard to understand how the individual pieces work, how they'll work when combined, and why we haven't been told exactly what the individual pieces are and how they'll be combined.

It can be summed up as a lack of communication, for whatever reason/s, but I think too there are some aspects of all this that won't be known by anyone until the thing's released and in the hands of the end users.

I'm sure you're right though and that Oleg will come up with the goods. However, it might a bumpy ride for some of us, as individuals and as a community.

Blackdog_kt
03-21-2011, 02:57 AM
Lot's of stuff that made sense.

Pretty solid assessment in all your posts there.

I'm hoping it's like one of the options you described and the boxed editions won't have me installing anything extra if i don't try to access multiplayer.

I'm going to be late in getting the game anyway (a relative will bring me a collector's edition from the UK about two weeks or so after release) by which point i guess stuff like Hyperlobby will already support CoD, so if it works that way i may be able to completely sidestep steam.

Les
03-21-2011, 03:20 AM
Pretty solid assessment in all your posts there.

Thanks, just wish I knew more about how things like Hyperlobby and servers actually work (without having to gain first-hand experience or do proper research into it :grin:), that way I could make some more definite assumptions. As it is, there are too many things that I think should be possible, but which might not actually be possible at all.

I'm pretty sure there are people here who have set up dedicated servers with Il-2 and other games, and who probably also know all the ins and outs of Steam. They should be able to make more educated guesses as to what we're in for, but they're either keeping quiet about it, or we all really are being kept in the dark and even the experts don't have enough information to be able to say for sure what we can expect.

Gimpymoo
03-21-2011, 08:50 AM
You will need to use Steam, as a Steamworks title, Steam integration is within the game.

Hyperlobby support may well be possible post launch, but you will definitely still need to have Steam running REGARDLESS as it is part of the DRM.

The DVD will contain files which allready have Steam integrated into them so to speak.

I dont understand why soo many are soo opposed to running Steam yet will happily install hyperlobby? Crazy.

For those unfamliar with Steamworks titles, how it works is that the DVD will contain game files (.gcf files - http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/GCF) the Steam client and a Steam activated product key.

Steam will install and update as likely the client on the disc would well have been superceeded, then the files from the disc will be installed into the Steam folder.

You will need to create/sign into the Steam service and enter the product key which comes in the box.

This will permanently tie the game to your Steam account so it can be downloaded in the future as many times as you wish, without the need for disc or the product key.

By default, CoD will be installed to \Steam\Steamapps\CoD (I have made up the game folders name).

To backup the game, copy the "Cod" folder to your preferred backup device, job done.

If you format the computer, install Steam and restore the folder to its default location and Steam will upate as needed and the game will run.

No Steamworks title in my knowledge as ever had standalone "offline" patches released as they are all delivered through the Steam platform.

Fritz X
03-21-2011, 01:14 PM
^ Very well put, pretty much the same I've experienced so far in all the years I used Valve's service.

Honestly, I feel like the whole communication between the developer and us customers is a pretty big let down so far. Lot's of confusion and very few detailed information so far. Especially the whole statement about "The boxed version will only use Steam for match making" seems to be a major element of confusion.

In the 8 years the Steam platform already exists, there were those games that made use of it, and those that didn't. And with "making use of it" I mean making full use of it. There's no such thing as making "partly" use of Steam features so far. And I honestly doubt this will change just for CoD.

Blackdog_kt
03-21-2011, 03:24 PM
You will need to use Steam, as a Steamworks title, Steam integration is within the game.

Hyperlobby support may well be possible post launch, but you will definitely still need to have Steam running REGARDLESS as it is part of the DRM.

The DVD will contain files which allready have Steam integrated into them so to speak.

I dont understand why soo many are soo opposed to running Steam yet will happily install hyperlobby? Crazy.

For those unfamliar with Steamworks titles, how it works is that the DVD will contain game files (.gcf files - http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/GCF) the Steam client and a Steam activated product key.

Steam will install and update as likely the client on the disc would well have been superceeded, then the files from the disc will be installed into the Steam folder.

You will need to create/sign into the Steam service and enter the product key which comes in the box.

This will permanently tie the game to your Steam account so it can be downloaded in the future as many times as you wish, without the need for disc or the product key.

By default, CoD will be installed to \Steam\Steamapps\CoD (I have made up the game folders name).

To backup the game, copy the "Cod" folder to your preferred backup device, job done.

If you format the computer, install Steam and restore the folder to its default location and Steam will upate as needed and the game will run.

No Steamworks title in my knowledge as ever had standalone "offline" patches released as they are all delivered through the Steam platform.

Well, it may work well for you but that's exactly the kind of thing i'm trying to avoid. For example, i prefer to have a backup copy of the game disc and keep the individual patches saved on my hard drive, rather than making a backup of the entire decompressed game folder for each patch version i might want to revert to ;)

The reason i doubt it will be completely integrated is a few recent posts on the ubi forums. They said that the boxed versions don't require you to use Steam, other than if you want the matchmaker functions. Boxed editions won't use the steam DRM and steam is only there to give you a server browser.

Granted, this is Ubi and many things are still unclear, but if i don't need to register with Steam to activate my copy (which is the only thing that seems to be clear, that boxed editions don't use steam's DRM), there's no reason to hurry up and install the steam client: by the time my copy arrives and i finish mucking around in single player there will be alternative methods.

Les
03-21-2011, 04:48 PM
...Honestly, I feel like the whole communication between the developer and us customers is a pretty big let down so far. Lot's of confusion and very few detailed information so far. Especially the whole statement about "The boxed version will only use Steam for match making" seems to be a major element of confusion...

Abysmal communication.

However, the Ubisoft representative has again stated the physical (boxed) version of the game "only uses SteamWorks for match-making and not the Steam DRM."

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/8071032709/m/1751069519

She could be wrong, she could be right, she might not really know what she's actually saying, but she's quite clearly stating the boxed version doesn't use the Steam DRM, or require installing the Steam client. To me that means the game, when you first install it, doesn't have to be tied to an active Steam account.

If, however, you choose to use the games default server browser, which relies on using the Steamworks Match-making feature that's built into it, then yes you will need an active Steam account in order to do so (and will therefore need to have the Steam client, the program that is generally known as 'Steam', installed on your system.)

Going purely by what we've been told and taking it at face value, it does look like the boxed version of the game is a stand-alone program that can be integrated into Steam later on if you want it to be.

But this only makes sense if a distinction can be made between the Steam client, (the program the end-user installs and interfaces with and which is generally referred to as 'Steam'), and the Steamworks Match-making feature, which is essentially lines of game-code that will be included in the game whether it's a boxed or downloaded version.

Mick
03-22-2011, 09:56 AM
She could be wrong, she could be right, she might not really know what she's actually saying, but she's quite clearly stating the boxed version doesn't use the Steam DRM, or require installing the Steam client. To me that means the game, when you first install it, doesn't have to be tied to an active Steam account.

Going purely by what we've been told and taking it at face value, it does look like the boxed version of the game is a stand-alone program that can be integrated into Steam later on if you want it to be.



... if only you could be right .... :grin: