Should 1C/UBI make Steam optional?

[Les]

This is a deliberately biased poll to show 1C/UBISOFT/Maddox Games how many people here want Steam to be optional with the new release, and so perhaps help make it so.

The suggestion is, that the publishers include all the Steam features in the new series, but only make it compulsory to install Steam if you want to use those features, relying on SolidShield for DRM protection in the case of those users who choose not to install Steam and use third-party multi-player browsers and manual patching instead.

To quote myself from the other thread -

"They should release the game in such a form that it only requires SolidShield activation for online or off-line use.

But the default built-in multi-player browser should still be linked to Steam, so that you require a Steam account to use those default built-in multi-player features.

That way, anyone can play off-line with or without installing Steam, and play online with or without installing Steam, though not using Steam would require connecting to a server via direct ip or by using a third-party browser...

...SolidShield for DRM online activation, Steam registration for optional use of the default built-in multi-player browser.

Patches and extra content released through Steam and through the traditional channels..."

[DellBoy321]

I don't understand the hostility towards Steam- you don't even need to be online to use it, and you don't have to manually patch. Or you could set Steam to only log in when using the game.

[#402FOX]

The options seem a bit one sided. I bet you always join the team with the most players;)

[Strike]

Where is the alternative:

"I like steam, and I see no reason for it to be made optional"

It comes with options such as "Online" and "Offline" modes :)

I play a lot of games that require steam and pretty much all of them are playable in "offline" mode :) Only a few times I have accidently shut down my PC unknowing of a client update, it has required me to reconnect to the internet to complete the update!

Steam updates your games for you, you get EXCELLENT speeds when downloading (I usually download at around 1-1,5 mb/s). All steam-supported games are installable/un-installable from steam, and they remain in your library as "greyed out" to show that they are purchased games, but not installed. Games that aren't supported can still be added manually so that you can remove any eventual shortcuts from your desktop. Steam also provides a nice ingame chat/friends/community access feature, which allows you to single out players you enjoy socializing with and add them quickly to your friends list. Then you can choose to have steam alert you if your friend has started playing the same game as you, and you can simply click the "(FRIEND) is playing IL-2:Cliffs Of Dover" icon and select "join friend's game". At least that is the scope of steam.

And even if you are an offliner. Steam will simply be your "portal" to your games News, patches, updates, mods and servers if you should play online. Start steam in offline mode, and it lets you choose your game. Or better yet, have steam closed, click IL-2 CoD's desktop Icon, and it will start steam in offline mode first (takes a few secs) and then starts your game!

Steam is also a great thing to help you become aware of your gaming addiction. Such as checking stats:

"Empire: Total War - You have played it 90 hours in the past 3 weeks" :eek::!:

[AWL_Spinner]

I can only presume this poll is an attempt at humor.

What do you want for breakfast?

a) Cornflakes?
b) Flakes of Corn?
c) Flaked Corn?
d) Corn in Flakes?

[Strike]

Actually, some people are getting way too emotional about these things.

I've had steam since the early days of Half-life 2 etc, it had a bumpy start, but BOY has it improved over the years. Valve has done an excellent job here in creating a user experience that allows gaming and access to games, even old games, instantly available and never more than a click away from download. Stuff like this is going to be the future anyways. App stores, marketplaces, VOD and soon games on demand, even game streaming... generally the digital market is moving in this direction. Get your stuff at home, without mail, without lifting your ass to go to the shop, without entering your credit card details (cause they're already linked to your account). See, want, click and play! It's yours along with a receit in your inbox.

[Codex]

This is a deliberately biased poll to show 1C/UBISOFT/Maddox Games how many people here want Steam to be optional with the new release, and so perhaps help make it so.

The suggestion is, that the publishers include all the Steam features in the new series, but only make it compulsory to install Steam if you want to use those features, relying on SolidShield for DRM protection in the case of those users who choose not to install Steam and use third-party multi-player browsers and manual patching instead.

To quote myself from the other thread -

"They should release the game in such a form that it only requires SolidShield activation for online or off-line use.

But the default built-in multi-player browser should still be linked to Steam, so that you require a Steam account to use those default built-in multi-player features.

That way, anyone can play off-line with or without installing Steam, and play online with or without installing Steam, though not using Steam would require connecting to a server via direct ip or by using a third-party browser...

...SolidShield for DRM online activation, Steam registration for optional use of the default built-in multi-player browser.

Patches and extra content released through Steam and through the traditional channels..."

You've obviously got no idea how Steam works and how it is integrated into games. Steam can never be optional, if you want to use its features you need to install it.

[Fritz X]

^ Pretty much correct.

The only way to let owners of retail games (without Steamworks) and players with games bought the same game on Steam together is making use of an alternative matchmaking system, like Hyperlobby, Gamespy or something similar. So it's possible for retail owners of IL-2 1946 to play on the same servers as Steam users. In case of CoD it seems like they use Valve's matchmaking system, so Steam is (for some people unfortunately) a must.

An optional choice would be nice, of course.

[Biggs]

flat-out biased poll...

why was this even posted?

EDIT.. ROFL nice 'edit' OP... facepalm

[ElAurens]

ArmA II's own browser works just fine for both Steam and non-Steam users.

Cliffs of Dover would be better with a setup like that.

[Les]

flat-out biased poll...

why was this even posted?

EDIT.. ROFL nice 'edit' OP... facepalm

I stated clearly from the outset the poll is deliberately biased, editing it to clarify why it was posted as some people didn't seem to be getting it.

Do I think this poll will be noticed and make a difference as to what 1C/UBI/Maddox do? Not really. Does that mean I shouldn't have tried? No, I don't think so. At least the numbers will be here for all to see, if people bother to contribute.

So, flame away, ignore it, whatever, there's an issue and I was trying to do something about it, by giving the potential customers of this product a way to show, in numbers, that they want a choice as to how they use it.

I don't know the ins and outs of Steam integration or whether the solution I suggested is possible, that's not the point. Where there's a will there's a way, of some kind or another.

Anyway, this is the last response I want to make about the subject. I've stated my position here and elsewhere. I'm not interested in arguing about it, the poll's here, people can make of it what they will.

[TheGrunch]

...but by creating a biased poll you have proved nothing because the people who don't want Steam to be optional won't vote and there's no way for anyone to estimate the numbers of these people as a proportion of the people who'd vote on the forum without messing about. If you'd just added another option it would actually show something.

[Falke]

Not a fan of anything intrusive, and I think Steam is, so yes, I think it should be optional. (Actually I don't even think it should nbe a choice)

Do I think it will be? No. To many people now a days are used to "intrusive" and don't really know what having a choice is, so they dismiss the idea and go with the flow. Call it collectivism or whatever. They've been so domesticated that they just don't know any better.

[Revvin]

You forgot a option to vote "I'm scared because a friends uncles sisters goldfish told me he once installed Steam and it blew his house up and ate his first born and a bloke down the pub said Steam stole all the internets once and wouldn't give them back so thats why I sit in a dark room with tin foil wrapped around my head"

[Skoshi Tiger]

By making it optional it would be a win-win situation for both sides. The steam camp can enjoy the all the benifits of using steam and non-steam users don't have to worry about any of the other issues raised.

If other games are functioning successfully in both steam and non-steam modes why is there such a big push to assimulate everyone into the collective? ;)


Edit- How about an poll option - I don't mind steam but I would not be able to use the software purchaced in the manner that I wish without viloating the terms of the agreement?

Cheers!

[Biggs]

this inst a poll at all... this is a poor attempt at a 'petition' of sorts...

but if it lets the angry people vent some steam.... *snicker*... then so be it.

[Vyper]

ArmA II's own browser works just fine for both Steam and non-Steam users.

Cliffs of Dover would be better with a setup like that.

Quoted for truth.

[Tacoma74]

The only explanation for thinking Steam is so intrusive is simple: Paranoia

[Kikuchiyo]

This thread is really odd for the simple fact that there is already a poll that has shown how important the STEAM issue is to most users. What's more is the loss of a couple of hundred "old timers" versus the number of newcomers they will get purchasing it through STEAM and like the STEAM MP service will moot this issue.

Also biased polls are for poloticians with a stupid agenda, or their pundits.

[Heliocon]

sorry - got to say it! Stupid thread.

And no it should not be optional, that will make it easier to pirate.

[ElAurens]

The piracy boogyman is a non issue, as everyone knows it will be pirated within the first week of release, if not sooner.

I don't like it, but that's the way it is.

And I'd really like to know where that totally speculative "couple hundred" number comes from.

There is no way to judge the numbers simply by looking at postings on the 3 main forums in the West. Most users never ever post on a forum, or even play online. Ergo, most users don't need Steam.

And I still think that the numbers of additional sales to be had from marketing on Steam, which, BTW has yet to happen, are being grossly exaggerated as well.

Sure there will be some additional sales, you cannot argue against that, but it simply is not going to be the tidal wave of cash rolling in that the Steam supporters say/think it will be. Once the word gets out that this title is actually difficult to master, and requires a fairly hefty investment in equipment and time to do properly, the vast majority of FPS and MMO players will skip right on by, just as they do now.

[Kikuchiyo]

The piracy boogyman is a non issue, as everyone knows it will be pirated within the first week of release, if not sooner.

I don't like it, but that's the way it is.

And I'd really like to know where that totally speculative "couple hundred" number comes from.

There is no way to judge the numbers simply by looking at postings on the 3 main forums in the West. Most users never ever post on a forum, or even play online. Ergo, most users don't need Steam.

And I still think that the numbers of additional sales to be had from marketing on Steam, which, BTW has yet to happen, are being grossly exaggerated as well.

Sure there will be some additional sales, you cannot argue against that, but it simply is not going to be the tidal wave of cash rolling in that the Steam supporters say/think it will be. Once the word gets out that this title is actually difficult to master, and requires a fairly hefty investment in equipment and time to do properly, the vast majority of FPS and MMO players will skip right on by, just as they do now.

Here we go again. Pretending that: a) only fps players, and mmo players use steam, and b) that there is no intersection where mmos, fps, and flight sims meet, and c) that anyone that plays fpses, or mmos can't handle a full switch flight sim. Have you seen the huge variety of titles offered on STEAM? It is surprisingly eclectic (i.e. represents every gaming genre). Also we know for a fact that Il-2 still has copies purchased on at very least a monthly basis. Can you guess where the purchasers are getting those copies? I'll give you a hint: it sure isn't box copies.

I started my gaming life as a flight simmer, and moved to fpses as the cfs genre died. I like fpses, I've played mmos (don't like them), and I fly full switch so take your strawman argument and put where your head is.

[ElAurens]

Yup, a few copies a month is sure an avalanche of sales.

:rolleyes:

In any case I will never convince you that CoD should be marketed with and without Steam, as you won't be happy until there is no other marketing channel than Steam, will you?

All that those of us that don't want to use Steam are asking for is choice.

That's all.

We are not saying you cannot buy it on Steam.

We just don't want it that way.

Why is this so hard for you to grasp?

And what is so wrong with that?

Oh, what is the largest selling game on Steam? Any idea?

[Kikuchiyo]

Yup, a few copies a month is sure an avalanche of sales.

:rolleyes:

In any case I will never convince you that CoD should be marketed with and without Steam, as you won't be happy until there is no other marketing channel than Steam, will you?

All that those of us that don't want to use Steam are asking for is choice.

That's all.

We are not saying you cannot buy it on Steam.

We just don't want it that way.

Why is this so hard for you to grasp?

And what is so wrong with that?

No, your assumption is incorrect. I have made that clear. I believe Valve's platform needs competition, but it needs to be just as easy and useful for the end user as STEAM is. What I dislike is your ridiculous arguments of why STEAM is bad. Don't put words in my mouth.

[ElAurens]

So, what about offering the option of a non-Steam version? As this is the crux of the matter.

Are you against that or not?

[Thee_oddball]

...but by creating a biased poll you have proved nothing because the people who don't want Steam to be optional won't vote and there's no way for anyone to estimate the numbers of these people as a proportion of the people who'd vote on the forum without messing about. If you'd just added another option it would actually show something.

but why would steam people care whether it is optional? how would it affect them? they can still buy it through steam install it through steam join servers through steam....a non steam version would have no affect on a steam version...as with the case of Arma II that some one else pointed out .

I have been doing some poking around over at steam and have been hard pressed to find many WW2 flight sims (save 1946 of course).
the one i did find is called wings of prey and i am not really sure it is a full fledged sim as all i saw in the preview was external mode and there forum is only 8 total pages spanning a year and it is rife with complaints...mostly about the DRM which i will discuss in more length at the end of this post because it affects us.

The other flight Sims i found were:

DCS black shark Meta score 82
IL2 1946 Meta score 86
top gun Meta score 0
F22 lighting 3 Meta score 0
F16 multi role fighter Meta score 0
MiG-29 fulcrum Meta score 0
Combat wings : battle of Britain Meta score 0

Almost half of them did not have there own forum on top of the 0 metascore that alone does not tell the whole story...the number 2 most played game (as of this post) Counter-Strike: Source and there forum has 14 total pages from the last month alone...1946 has 4 pages over the last YEAR! and add the fact that the top 100 games (2 million players )being played right now on steam there is not 1 ww 2 flight sim in the group.
http://store.steampowered.com/stats/

What this tells me is there really is no interest in flight sims by the majority of Steam user's especially ww2 flight sims and unfortunately the flight sim market is not what it used tobe.

Why did the flight-sim disappear? Most likely because the development costs were not being balanced by revenue, a basic economic model that spells doom for anything, not just flight-simulators. More importantly, the taste of gamers went through a dramatic change in the late 90s with a heavy focus on First Person Shooters like Quake, Half-Life and Counter-Strike. Add the rise of console domination and PC players were soon marginalized, unable to deliver the a sizable amount of consumers required to turn a profit on a flight-sim.

http://www.infoaddict.com/the-current-state-of-pc-based-flight-simulators-2010-edition

I dont see steam as a way to save the flight sim genre or CoD but a way to distribute it and maybe give oleg a few more dollars...but what might become a problem is the propsed DRM...in that Wings of Prey forum the biggest complaint was the type of DRM they were using...its the same one oleg is planing on using
http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1673848

now maybe 224 posts and9000 views does not mean alot but how many people did not bother to post but just decided not to buy the game....How many will do that with CoD if they are not given the option to not use steam if they choose.

[Kikuchiyo]

So, what about offering the option of a non-Steam version? As this is the crux of the matter.

Are you against that or not?

Personally I don't see the issue. The original game was in woeful need of a easy to use and more widely known MP server browser (I'd argue that HL met these requirments) and Steamworks provides that while simultaneously (although not preventing all together) deterring piracy. It also already has a massive market penetration and prevents 1C Maddox from having to build a MP service. I am totally ambivalent towards using STEAM or not.

[Kikuchiyo]

but why would steam people care whether it is optional? how would it affect them? they can still buy it through steam install it through steam join servers through steam....a non steam version would have no affect on a steam version...as with the case of Arma II that some one else pointed out .

A game has to use Steamworks for a STEAM user to join a server with it. I've never in all my days seen a MP platform that makes finding and joining a server easier than the Steamworks platform.

and add the fact that the top 100 games (2 million players )being played right now on steam there is not 1 ww 2 flight sim in the group.

I know for a fact that there is at least 1 as I part of it.

The no metacrictic score is not the same as a 0 metacritic score. I never claimed that flight sims were popular. I said that it being available on STEAM gives it a wider audience. I am sure flight sims in general don't have near the audience of fpses. I also think that the reemergence of flight sims is coming. It was a genre that died off, but we have seen a number of recent flight sims do well, and not just with old die hard simmers either. My group as recruited, trained, and helped several new people (mind you there are only about 20 of us) discover the genre. I personally have brought a few people in myself to the genre. You haven't invalidated my arguments.

[Voyager]

"They should release the game in such a form that it only requires SolidShield activation for online or off-line use."

Let me get this straight, you really think only being able to install the game five times is better than having to deal with Steam?

I may not care much about install limits on an FPS I'm going to dumpster in two months, but I was kind of planning on playing CoD for a while. Maybe you're not?

[Kikuchiyo]

Let me get this straight, you really think only being able to install the game five times is better than having to deal with Steam?

I may not care much about install limits on an FPS I'm going to dumpster in two months, but I was kind of planning on playing CoD for a while. Maybe you're not?

I agree with you. Personally I would rather see the reverse of what Les said. I am honestly hoping the DD version doesn't have the stupid TAGES DRM, especially considering all the past issues TAGES has had.

[Blackdog_kt]

Guys, read what the guy wrote

This is a deliberately biased poll

;)

The meaning of the poll is simple:
a) there are people who like and use Steam that still think it's a good idea to make it optional so others can choose not to use it
b) not everyone who doesn't want to use Steam is foam-at-the-mouth raving mad

It's a break-down of the "let's make it optional" people into different categories, to show the Steam fans that not all of us hate Steam. We just want a choice and as long it doesn't interfere with the choice of Steam fans all is well.

Finally, i guess it's also one sided because i fully trust and expect a lot among the posters here to answer "no, i want this to be forced on everyone just because i like it" if they had the choice to do so :-P





If other games are functioning successfully in both steam and non-steam modes why is there such a big push to assimulate everyone into the collective? ;)


Edit- How about an poll option - I don't mind steam but I would not be able to use the software purchaced in the manner that I wish without viloating the terms of the agreement?

Cheers!

Exactly. We want you to have the choice of using your favorite platform. It's just that some of you are loathe to recognize a similar benefit for those of us with a different opinion. Get real guys, we don't have to like it and this forced assimilation is making us dislike it even more.

Also, what Skoshi said above about the extra poll option is very good...it would give an indication about how many people would go to the trouble of cracking their legally bought game to bypass steam.

Bottom line is we don't want you to like our ways and habits, it's some of you that want to make everyone else like yours. Sorry, it doesn't work that way.


sorry - got to say it! Stupid thread.

And no it should not be optional, that will make it easier to pirate.

Shogun 2 total war is already up on the torrents, plus CoD already has another DRM scheme, so i'm calling bogus on this assessment. You want to use it, fine, go ahead. You want to make me use it when i have no use for it, not fine at all.


That's the bottom line really and the reason the poll is deliberately biased: some people think they have the right to forcibly convert everyone to their personal set of preferences. However, you can easily see that there are also reasonable people among the Steam fans, those who answered "i like it but it should be optional".

I'm repeating myself here but it's not my fault that the same repetitive "arguments" in favor of assimilation are still getting used anyway. If you ask the same question or provide the same reasoning that was already discounted in the past you'll still get the same answer, so here it goes again: the poll is not meant to show support or dislike for Steam, it's meant to provide a breakdown of the different groups of people who think it should be optional, in order to show that even among Steam fans there are people who share this opinion and consider it more beneficial to the community, developers and title's long term life as a whole, than what we are currently getting.



Let me get this straight, you really think only being able to install the game five times is better than having to deal with Steam?

I may not care much about install limits on an FPS I'm going to dumpster in two months, but I was kind of planning on playing CoD for a while. Maybe you're not?

I'm not much of a DRM fan in general, but it seems their system is very similar to the one used in DCS: A10.
Install on up to 3 PCs the moment you get the game, get one activation per month re-credited to you to install on another one. If you still manage to run out, email your cd-key to tech support as proof of purchase and receive 3 activations. I don't think there's many people who will install on 3 PCs right away and then on more than a new PC each month, so it's reasonable.

If they really want to go "portable" they will choose Steam, otherwise they'll stay with Solidshield, that is IF a steam-only version is released.

You see, a lot of steam fans don't seem to realize that just because it's on Steam doesn't mean it won't have Solidshield DRM on top of that. It's been clearly stated that it will require both so no, you can't do away with Solidshield just because it uses Steam (at least from what we currently know from official sources). What does this mean?

As of current knowledge, no matter which version you buy you will still be limited to a pool of 3 initial activations plus a replenishment activation getting credited to the pool once per month. So no, you can't go on and install it on more than 3 PCs on release day just because it uses steam and you have an account there.

Not directed at you personally, but once this bit of information sets in i am fully expecting epic whinning about lack of choice and redundant multi-layered DRM to commence from the same posters who've been poking fun at us for saying the exact same thing the past week or so :-P

[machoo]

I havent been reading much about the steam posts , I cant see what is the big deal though. I use steam , i'd rather download a game then have to use a cd crack , it's the same game as a cd version , who cares if it has some protection on it. It still works , who gives a crap.

[Heliocon]

Guys, read what the guy wrote



;)

The meaning of the poll is simple:
a) there are people who like and use Steam that still think it's a good idea to make it optional so others can choose not to use it
b) not everyone who doesn't want to use Steam is foam-at-the-mouth raving mad

It's a break-down of the "let's make it optional" people into different categories, to show the Steam fans that not all of us hate Steam. We just want a choice and as long it doesn't interfere with the choice of Steam fans all is well.

Finally, i guess it's also one sided because i fully trust and expect a lot among the posters here to answer "no, i want this to be forced on everyone just because i like it" if they had the choice to do so :-P





Exactly. We want you to have the choice of using your favorite platform. It's just that some of you are loathe to recognize a similar benefit for those of us with a different opinion. Get real guys, we don't have to like it and this forced assimilation is making us dislike it even more.

Also, what Skoshi said above about the extra poll option is very good...it would give an indication about how many people would go to the trouble of cracking their legally bought game to bypass steam.

Bottom line is we don't want you to like our ways and habits, it's some of you that want to make everyone else like yours. Sorry, it doesn't work that way.




Shogun 2 total war is already up on the torrents, plus CoD already has another DRM scheme, so i'm calling bogus on this assessment. You want to use it, fine, go ahead. You want to make me use it when i have no use for it, not fine at all.


That's the bottom line really and the reason the poll is deliberately biased: some people think they have the right to forcibly convert everyone to their personal set of preferences. However, you can easily see that there are also reasonable people among the Steam fans, those who answered "i like it but it should be optional".

I'm repeating myself here but it's not my fault that the same repetitive "arguments" in favor of assimilation are still getting used anyway. If you ask the same question or provide the same reasoning that was already discounted in the past you'll still get the same answer, so here it goes again: the poll is not meant to show support or dislike for Steam, it's meant to provide a breakdown of the different groups of people who think it should be optional, in order to show that even among Steam fans there are people who share this opinion and consider it more beneficial to the community, developers and title's long term life as a whole, than what we are currently getting.





I'm not much of a DRM fan in general, but it seems their system is very similar to the one used in DCS: A10.
Install on up to 3 PCs the moment you get the game, get one activation per month re-credited to you to install on another one. If you still manage to run out, email your cd-key to tech support as proof of purchase and receive 3 activations. I don't think there's many people who will install on 3 PCs right away and then on more than a new PC each month, so it's reasonable.

If they really want to go "portable" they will choose Steam, otherwise they'll stay with Solidshield, that is IF a steam-only version is released.

You see, a lot of steam fans don't seem to realize that just because it's on Steam doesn't mean it won't have Solidshield DRM on top of that. It's been clearly stated that it will require both so no, you can't do away with Solidshield just because it uses Steam (at least from what we currently know from official sources). What does this mean?

As of current knowledge, no matter which version you buy you will still be limited to a pool of 3 initial activations plus a replenishment activation getting credited to the pool once per month. So no, you can't go on and install it on more than 3 PCs on release day just because it uses steam and you have an account there.

Not directed at you personally, but once this bit of information sets in i am fully expecting epic whinning about lack of choice and redundant multi-layered DRM to commence from the same posters who've been poking fun at us for saying the exact same thing the past week or so :-P

I never said steam would make it impossible to pirate - just that not having steam on all compies would make it overall easier to pirate.

No one is forcing you to buy the game if it uses steam, dont say we are. Also I never said I was against having non steam versions/alternatives (which I am), just that the thread and poll were silly and it does nothing to advance the debate / discussion. Also if everyone has to have steam so we dont get yuplay, yes I will force you to use steam ;)

Did the pirates also patch in dx10/dx11/AA into shogun 2?

[Untamo]

Many times people ask, why does someone dislike Steam?

Rant mode on.

Here's my bit, directly from Steam EULA:
Valve hereby grants, and you accept, a limited, terminable, non-exclusive license and right to use the Software for your personal use

Meaning: Valve can take any game off their servers anyday, and you don't have any say in it. No more of that game for you.

This, combined with the fact that no company lasts forever, is why I'm against Steam. I like to play old games, something of a nostalgic I am.

Let's say, that after 20 years from now I'd like, in a whim of nostalgia, to play a little bit of that old flight sim, IL-2 CoD. But wait... oh.. they have taken it off from their servers as it was played so little.. OR .. oh.. Valve went bankrupt 10 years ago. Nostalgia moment ruined.

Optimist would say: 1C would likely to make a non-Steam patch for it.

I ask: Would they, for a 20 year old, (almost)forgotten game?

I would like to like Steam. It's a great idea (apart from the license part), it works great, but for how long?

Thusfar I have dared to buy one license(you don't own the game), ArmA2, from Steam, as it was so cheap on the Xmas sale, and I'm not so emotionally attached to it as I am to the IL-2 series. So, if the Steam servers would be shut down tomorrow, it wouldn't ruin my life.

Rant mode off.

-Untamo

[machoo]

You don't need to be on the steam servers to play the game , you can launch it from your games folder , it's installed on your HDD. Games will always work from steam. Online play might be another story but that is fair enough.

[Untamo]

You don't need to be on the steam servers to play the game , you can launch it from your games folder , it's installed on your HDD. Games will always work from steam. Online play might be another story but that is fair enough.

Infact, yes you have to, just not continuously. Atleast once for every few months if I remember correctly, or your installation goes disabled and you have to reinstall it.

-Untamo

[Blackdog_kt]

I never said steam would make it impossible to pirate - just that not having steam on all compies would make it overall easier to pirate.

No one is forcing you to buy the game if it uses steam, dont say we are. Also I never said I was against having non steam versions/alternatives (which I am), just that the thread and poll were silly and it does nothing to advance the debate / discussion. Also if everyone has to have steam so we dont get yuplay, yes I will force you to use steam ;)

Did the pirates also patch in dx10/dx11/AA into shogun 2?

You really are a narrow-minded fellow, aren't you? I'm not eager to use something that has no benefit to me, deal with it, move on and let us argue our case to the developer to have a friggin' option that doesn't affect the rest of you in the slightest. Some of you guys are worse than certain asian communist regimes of the 60s-70s with your forced indoctrination.

I know what you'll say, "nobody is forcing you to buy the game", but i have a better idea. I'll buy the game so that my say carries some weight as a legitimate customer and not a bystander, then i'll keep complaining about the lack of an alternative in the same way you constantly complain about lack of DX11 support. And guess what, their track record shows that whenever something persists for a long time they do eventually provide the option:
1) trim changes
2) various FM changes over the years
3) they had the ability to make mods incompatible with the TD patches but they didn't because a lot of people in the community use them

...and so on. So yes, we might still be forced to use this and have you basking in your snobbishness for the first release, but if there's not a long term contractual agreement i wouldn't be surprised to see the sequels coming in two different versions.

Maybe the modding community will come up with a workaround that disables it (it's not exactly hard to for someone who knows what he's doing, if you visit the pirate torrent trackers and run a small search you'll see that 90% of the steam games are pirated) without disabling the solidshield DRM.

Bottom line is, there is a minority but significant demand for a no-steam version and if it's not done through official means it will be done through unofficial ones down the line and you can't do much about it. I don't want to be a part of your group, buddy list or whatever, i just want to play the game, so forcing me to use Steam will still not get you what you expect to get from it because i won't use any of its features apart from the "join server" function. Get it? ;)

Also, your Uplay argument is a red herring because
a) after the initial fiasco Ubi abandoned it and uses steam but
b) the intellectual property of CoD lies with 1c and not Ubi and
c) there is already another DRM scheme in place which, based on your "my way or the highway" approach, i really hope you will be forced to use on top of steam as it seems to be the case.

Despite it being based on a false premise, if you say that "in order not to get Uplay i'll force you to use Steam" i can just say that in order to have complex engine management and FM/DM improvements i'll force you not to have DX11 support and if you don't like it then haha, deal with it because this is a game about aircraft and mechanics are more important than visuals because i say so :cool:
This is exactly the attitude you guys have been displaying and it doesn't make Steam any friends to have a select few going around like a bunch of self-flogging zealots aggressively trying to convert everyone to their views. The more you rant about it, the more averse to it you make the rest of us.

Finally, the poll clearly shows thus far that the majority of people who want it to be optional either have it and like it or are neutrally predisposed to it. Maybe that's why you lot didn't like this poll, because it clearly nullifies your "let's lump everyone together for ease of discrediting" false argument that everyone who wants the option to opt out is an ill-informed hater with no personal experience. Well, think again because as of now 35% of the people who want it to be optional are steam fans and another 40% are neutral to it.

[Skoshi Tiger]

I just want to know why they wont let me buy and run two copies of the game without having to go to the length of getting different emails and accounts.

Licence management programs are old tech, We've been running one at work for years. It knows how many licences you've bought and only lets that many copies of the program run? Crikey how hard can it be?

[TheGrunch]

Despite it being based on a false premise, if you say that "in order not to get Uplay i'll force you to use Steam" i can just say that in order to have complex engine management and FM/DM improvements i'll force you not to have DX11 support and if you don't like it then haha, deal with it because this is a game about aircraft and mechanics are more important than visuals because i say so :cool:

:lol:

[kingpinda]

I can't answer the poll because my answer isnt in there.

I have no problems whatsoever to have to use steam without it being optional.

[ATAG_Dutch]

I can't answer the poll because my answer isnt in there.

I have no problems whatsoever to have to use steam without it being optional.

I agree completely. Consequently I haven't voted.

[robtek]

Bad decision!
It outs you as a supporter of oppression!
Or is it dangerous to have a choice???

[Biggs]

Or is it dangerous to have a choice???

only if its the wrong one ;)

[ElAurens]

2+2=5 citizen.

[Heliocon]

You really are a narrow-minded fellow, aren't you? I'm not eager to use something that has no benefit to me, deal with it, move on and let us argue our case to the developer to have a friggin' option that doesn't affect the rest of you in the slightest. Some of you guys are worse than certain asian communist regimes of the 60s-70s with your forced indoctrination.

I know what you'll say, "nobody is forcing you to buy the game", but i have a better idea. I'll buy the game so that my say carries some weight as a legitimate customer and not a bystander, then i'll keep complaining about the lack of an alternative in the same way you constantly complain about lack of DX11 support. And guess what, their track record shows that whenever something persists for a long time they do eventually provide the option:
1) trim changes
2) various FM changes over the years
3) they had the ability to make mods incompatible with the TD patches but they didn't because a lot of people in the community use them

...and so on. So yes, we might still be forced to use this and have you basking in your snobbishness for the first release, but if there's not a long term contractual agreement i wouldn't be surprised to see the sequels coming in two different versions.

Maybe the modding community will come up with a workaround that disables it (it's not exactly hard to for someone who knows what he's doing, if you visit the pirate torrent trackers and run a small search you'll see that 90% of the steam games are pirated) without disabling the solidshield DRM.

Bottom line is, there is a minority but significant demand for a no-steam version and if it's not done through official means it will be done through unofficial ones down the line and you can't do much about it. I don't want to be a part of your group, buddy list or whatever, i just want to play the game, so forcing me to use Steam will still not get you what you expect to get from it because i won't use any of its features apart from the "join server" function. Get it? ;)

Also, your Uplay argument is a red herring because
a) after the initial fiasco Ubi abandoned it and uses steam but
b) the intellectual property of CoD lies with 1c and not Ubi and
c) there is already another DRM scheme in place which, based on your "my way or the highway" approach, i really hope you will be forced to use on top of steam as it seems to be the case.

Despite it being based on a false premise, if you say that "in order not to get Uplay i'll force you to use Steam" i can just say that in order to have complex engine management and FM/DM improvements i'll force you not to have DX11 support and if you don't like it then haha, deal with it because this is a game about aircraft and mechanics are more important than visuals because i say so :cool:
This is exactly the attitude you guys have been displaying and it doesn't make Steam any friends to have a select few going around like a bunch of self-flogging zealots aggressively trying to convert everyone to their views. The more you rant about it, the more averse to it you make the rest of us.

Finally, the poll clearly shows thus far that the majority of people who want it to be optional either have it and like it or are neutrally predisposed to it. Maybe that's why you lot didn't like this poll, because it clearly nullifies your "let's lump everyone together for ease of discrediting" false argument that everyone who wants the option to opt out is an ill-informed hater with no personal experience. Well, think again because as of now 35% of the people who want it to be optional are steam fans and another 40% are neutral to it.

1. When you compare forum posters to communists in the 60s and 70s it makes you look like an idiot.
2. It was a joke, grow up for christ sake. It was also a generalised statement about "alternative DRM" to steam, which is worse than steam imo. The the fact that you took it seriously even though I think it was clearly a joke, even including a emote/wink at the end of the line hints at something... but people who compare forum users talking about a game to communists/nazis etc dont have the brain power to understand and differentiate between a joke and a statement I guess.
Also I dont constantly complain about the lack of DX11 support, I complain that they contradict their own statements and sight problems that could be solved through DX11...

[vicinity]

Meaning: Valve can take any game off their servers anyday, and you don't have any say in it. No more of that game for you.
Sure they could, but unless they have a VERY good reason to, it's not going to happen. Pissing off your customers isn't good business practice.

This, combined with the fact that no company lasts forever, is why I'm against Steam. I like to play old games, something of a nostalgic I am.

Let's say, that after 20 years from now I'd like, in a whim of nostalgia, to play a little bit of that old flight sim, IL-2 CoD. But wait... oh.. they have taken it off from their servers as it was played so little.. OR .. oh.. Valve went bankrupt 10 years ago. Nostalgia moment ruined.

Optimist would say: 1C would likely to make a non-Steam patch for it.

I ask: Would they, for a 20 year old, (almost)forgotten game?Well in 20 years it's much more likely Steam will still be around than say 1c...You should be more worried about 1c going out of business because if that happens once your activations run out you'll no longer be able play any more.

I would like to like Steam. It's a great idea (apart from the license part), it works great, but for how long?

Thusfar I have dared to buy one license(you don't own the game), ArmA2, from Steam, as it was so cheap on the Xmas sale, and I'm not so emotionally attached to it as I am to the IL-2 series. So, if the Steam servers would be shut down tomorrow, it wouldn't ruin my life.
You know it doesn't matter where you buy a game from, you're still only buying the license to play that game, right?

Your steam version of Arma II will probably outlast my disc version of Arma II despite me not not even needing to ever remove it from it's case.

[Blackdog_kt]

1. When you compare forum posters to communists in the 60s and 70s it makes you look like an idiot.
2. It was a joke, grow up for christ sake. It was also a generalised statement about "alternative DRM" to steam, which is worse than steam imo. The the fact that you took it seriously even though I think it was clearly a joke, even including a emote/wink at the end of the line hints at something... but people who compare forum users talking about a game to communists/nazis etc dont have the brain power to understand and differentiate between a joke and a statement I guess.
Also I dont constantly complain about the lack of DX11 support, I complain that they contradict their own statements and sight problems that could be solved through DX11...

Well, if you really were posting in jest then my apologies are in order and i'll exclude you from the post's "target group". My comments still stand for whoever posts similar stuff and means it.

[Biggs]

It seems your prayers have been answered.

"Finally, if you buy the physical version of the game, there will be no need to download anything additional in order to play the game. An internet connection will be required to activate the game, and for online play, but that is it. The game only uses SteamWorks for match-making and not the Steam DRM."



no need to download steam client apparently.

[Cobra8472]

I just want to know why they wont let me buy and run two copies of the game without having to go to the length of getting different emails and accounts.

Licence management programs are old tech, We've been running one at work for years. It knows how many licences you've bought and only lets that many copies of the program run? Crikey how hard can it be?

Seriously, you want two copies of the game, on one account?

You can do that.

Why you'd want it, I have no ******* clue, but whatever. You can buy 2 copies and have them on the same account.

You can't log in to the account from two seperate PC's at the same time however, and I think it is logical why. If it is not for you.. well..

[Heliocon]

It seems your prayers have been answered.




no need to download steam client apparently.

Well technically you do because steamworks is in the steam client I believe. So you will have to register or link the exe in steam in order to play MP (I think).

Also for the record steam only requires internet for registration aswell, after that you can use offline mode.

[Thee_oddball]

Well technically you do because steamworks is in the steam client I believe. So you will have to register or link the exe in steam in order to play MP (I think).

Also for the record steam only requires internet for registration aswell, after that you can use offline mode.

Most of the tools and functionality included in Steamworks is intended to support games by including ancillary functions like cheat detection and DRM. Obviously, those things won't help you build a great game in the first place -- Steamworks is not intended as a game creation platform. If you're a Mod team, be sure to check out the Valve Developer Community. This site includes information on how to get the Source SDK, and is full of valuable information contributed by Valve and by teams using the Source Engine.

Steamworks, it should be noted, is not part of the Steam publishing/distribution arrangement. Steamworks is a free toolkit for game developers; distribution on Steam is handled through a separate deal with Valve.

:)
https://partner.steamgames.com/documentation/mod_team

[Heliocon]

:)
https://partner.steamgames.com/documentation/mod_team

Nice catch - didnt realise they seperated in this way. One thing I love about Valve is that they are so completely dedicated to PC games (except for l4d/p2 which is multi) with the source engine and all their free tools.

[Thee_oddball]

Nice catch - didnt realise they seperated in this way. One thing I love about Valve is that they are so completely dedicated to PC games (except for l4d/p2 which is multi) with the source engine and all their free tools.

thnx hel but here is something your not going to like, it sounds great till you get to the bottom..it almost contradicts what was written above.
https://partner.steamgames.com/documentation/api

Matchmaking allows users to find existing games via server listings, or to start new games with a group through a lobby. See Peer-to-Peer Matchmaking for more information on using lobby-based matchmaking.

There are both game server and game client components to matchmaking. A game server (which can be a dedicated server or any client that will accept connections to other users) can publish information about itself to a Steam server (called the Master Server). There are a set of details it can share - server name, player count, map/scenario name, IP address. This is detailed in the ISteamMasterServerUpdater interface. The game client then uses the ISteamMatchmakingServers interface to get the raw lists of these game servers and their details. It first requests a base list from the master server via one on the SteamMatchmakingServers()->Request*() functions for the source it wants.

There are a few different sets of servers that can be retrieved:

* Internet server list - game servers hosted on and accessible via the public Internet
* LAN server list - game servers found on the local class C network via UDP broadcast
* Friends server list - game servers where your friends are currently playing
* Favorites server list - game servers that the current user has explicitly marked as a favorite
* History server list - game servers that the current user has played on recently
* Spectator server list - game servers marked in a special 'spectate' mode, which means they are actually a proxy that allows the user to observe a different multi-player game via a relay.

The result is a (potentially huge) list of game servers. The game client receives a callback when the list is received. The initial result is a flat list of IP addresses to query, returned approximately in order of how close the game server is to the requesting client.

The client can then request more information on each of those servers, getting both more detailed server information and ping time to that game server. It can take a while to query the information from servers (typically 50-100 servers per second can be queried), so most games choose to start displaying the information as it arrives.

The Steam client's built-in server browser will display basic information about the game server and give the option the user to join, but the information it can show is fairly limited and should be considered a secondary means of joining games, with your own in-game server browser being the primary.

[Heliocon]

thnx hel but here is something your not going to like, it sounds great till you get to the bottom..it almost contradicts what was written above.
https://partner.steamgames.com/documentation/api

Contradictory to what I posted, or what you quoted steam as posting?

[JG27_brook]

flat-out biased poll...

why was this even posted?

EDIT.. ROFL nice 'edit' OP... facepalm

So Y do want me to have Stream so much ?
If i want to buy hard copy with my own cash and want to play at HL and u are wanting to stop me?

becauese u like Stream?

Hmmm

[Thee_oddball]

Contradictory to what I posted, or what you quoted steam as posting?

not what you posted :) but what was written on the steam page

[Gimpymoo]

No, it should not.

The Steam integration is there to keep the community together which is EXACTLY what this will achieve.

Look at Red Orchestra, Killing floor, CSS and TF2 to name a few, they use Steam exclusively for multiplayer and work fine.

Much better than having to install 3rd party hacks with everyone scattered everywhere.

For 128 player support, perfect matchmaking/lobbys are required and Stemworks integration will go someway to achieving that.

Also, Ubisoft could have insisted on their own DRM, then you would be really upset - lol

[Blackdog_kt]

I think this is leaning closer and closer to a compromise like the one used by the ArmA series (aka, steam comes with the version sold on steam, but it's not used by the boxed versions), which i find to be good news. Steam seems to be completely optional, depending on the kind of version you choose to buy (buying via Steam or getting a boxed edition). Keeping my fingers crossed :grin:

I like this because i don't think one can keep a community together by forcing standards on them. I know i wouldn't use any of Steam's community features for example, even if it was mandatory, because i really only engage in multiplayer with people i already know in real life or in a couple of public servers.

Look at the amount of anguish generated recently, simply by lack of clear information on how steam is implemented...
Imagine now that steam was mandatory for everyone and someone had a connection issue in the middle of a sortie, you'd be getting pro/anti-Steam flames not only on the forums but also while flying in multiplayer.
People would stop flying the mission and rather split up into steamers and non-steamers, mixed bag of Luftwaffe and RAF aircraft on both teams, trying to shoot down the "infidels". Maybe that's what the "renegade pilots" in the promotional material referred to :-P

[Les]

...you'd be getting pro/anti-Steam flames not only on the forums but also while flying in multiplayer. People would stop flying the mission and rather split up into steamers and non-steamers, mixed bag of Luftwaffe and RAF aircraft on both teams, trying to shoot down the "infidels"...

lol, that would be funny, they could form Steam and non-Steam based squads and engage in a never-ending battle to prove...nothing really.

Maybe it wouldn't be a good idea to let them fly together after all.:grin: