Frankly, these lasers...

[ChrisDNT]

http://i56.tinypic.com/30jmzia.jpg

... I hope they will be switchable !

[Sven]

... I hope they will be switchable !

Old footage. New video.

[ChrisDNT]

This screenshot comes from the newest video on this Russian TV report.
Not so old so.

[T}{OR]

Cccccc... some people just can't wait for the game to come out.

This screenshot comes from the newest video on this Russian TV report.
Not so old so.

Which is showcasing the very same footage we see over and over in pretty much all videos posted.

To add to this - Oleg has mentioned that you will be able to change the shutter speed. End of story.

[BadAim]

So much whining, so little time.........

[choctaw111]

http://i56.tinypic.com/30jmzia.jpg

... I hope they will be switchable !

If you have actually seen tracers with your own eyes then your opinion is noted.
However, I have said in so many other threads that this is what tracers really look like.
I am happy beyond words that we finally get tracers that look real.
Please take my word for it as a Paratrooper who has seen plenty.

[Defender]

http://i56.tinypic.com/30jmzia.jpg

... I hope they will be switchable !

Still photo of a light source moving at a few thousand feet per second is going to streak my friend. You're thread is pointless as there are countless others just like it.

FYI lasers are Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation. THey are a continuous focused ray of light coming from the source, they're not what the picture is trying to prove.

:rolleyes:

[choctaw111]

http://i56.tinypic.com/30jmzia.jpg

... I hope they will be switchable !


One other thing.
These "laser" tracers are a vidcap from an in game movie, so they will appear as streaks.
If you hit the pause button in game and "freeze time", then the tracers will appear as a dot, much like real life.
If that dot is moving at nearly 3,000 feet per second as viewed from the perspective in the movie then yes, it will appear as a streak.

[fireflyerz]

Ive fired a 105mm howitzer from the hip , so there for Im a hardman army know it all, if I say the trcers are correct looking like starwars lazers then that is all there is to be said on the matter PERIOD , damn , did you see what I did there did ya , sometimes I amaze even myself. :rolleyes:

[TheGrunch]

Don't be a douche, if you want to see photos of choctaw from his time in the forces you're welcome to look at his previous posts from the Ubi forum.

[kimosabi]

WW2 Hurricane gun test at night:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v369/RedToo/Hurri-Gun-Test.jpg

Imma shooting mah lazor.

P-47 Ca. 1943:

http://www.corbisimages.com/images/67/390B0352-585B-48EA-8CEB-B9AD3CE560BE/IH021209.jpg

Moar lazorz pl0x!

[JG52Uther]

Don't be a douche, if you want to see photos of choctaw from his time in the forces you're welcome to look at his previous posts from the Ubi forum.
Exactly.

[fireflyerz]

Don't be a douche, if you want to see photos of choctaw from his time in the forces you're welcome to look at his previous posts from the Ubi forum.

No I dont want to see photo's of him or you or anyone else for that matter , im not remotly interested in anyones background or there biased opinions , I dont go around raming my opinion down other peoples throats , "let others have there opinion and there say"... do you get it.

[TheGrunch]

No, in fact I don't get why you had to make such a blatantly sarcastic post regarding someone's assertions about their military experience and then get upset when it was pointed out to you that they do in fact have said experience.

How is it biased to have had years of first-hand experience of something visual and then make visual comparisons based upon that experience? I could spend all day having the *opinion* that the vast majority of 109s had red paint on the nose during the Battle of Britain, but that doesn't mean it's either true or should be in the game.

[kimosabi]

Did you guys see my amazing lazor shots, or are you more interested in eachother?

[TheGrunch]

I liked your laz0rs, but I've seen those photos before. :)

[kimosabi]

Ok, cool. So why are we havin this thread still? Moar cowbell?

[TheGrunch]

Yeah, just another repeat-whine thread. Pew pew pew!
http://www.skymeister.com/Web%20Night%20Tracers.jpg

[fireflyerz]

No, in fact I don't get why you had to make such a blatantly sarcastic post regarding someone's assertions about their military experience and then get upset when it was pointed out to you that they do in fact have said experience.

How is it biased to have had years of first-hand experience of something visual and then make visual comparisons based upon that experience? I could spend all day having the *opinion* that the vast majority of 109s had red paint on the nose during the Battle of Britain, but that doesn't mean it's either true or should be in the game.

O for gods sake man , my post wasnt aimed at him personally it was aimed at the whole post and all the other threads that are just like it , the same statments keep getting made in ever increasing short tempered terms , every time somone starts a new thread here , I just cringe and wait for the backlashings to start.... its pathetic not personal , do you get it YET.

[TheGrunch]

No, because that has nothing to do with what happened in this thread. All of the replies were very reasonable, even-tempered explanations up until yours, although I admit it is easy to read whatever tone you want into them on the internet. Oh well, justify it however you want, I'm not bothered, there are other threads with actual content.

[minvid]

"I ´ve got my opinion, don´t confuse me with facts!!!!" :rolleyes:

[major_setback]

To be honest I think what is bothering people (me) most is the absolute perfect regularity of them.
Here they are straight too, but the edges are a bit irregular, and they appear to fade and even disappear in places (Big picture):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/Tracer_fire_at_MCB_Camp_Pendleton_DM-ST-89-00210.jpg

[Robert]

Imma shooting mah lazor.

P-47 Ca. 1943:

http://www.corbisimages.com/images/67/390B0352-585B-48EA-8CEB-B9AD3CE560BE/IH021209.jpg

Moar lazorz pl0x!


Oh, that's just beautiful. Is there a larger image of this somewhere. That just SCREAMS desktop.

[TheGrunch]

Warhol much? :)

[Robert]

Warhol much? :)


??

Not a huge fan of his, so I've never really looked at much of his work. Are you telling me Andy did this, Grunch? Or am I totally clueless to the reference? LOL

[TheGrunch]

It just looks as close as an unedited photo could get to pop art, that's all I mean. :)

[meplay]

i wanna see his pics, post link :)

[[RS]Boomer]

I for one, wont even be using any tracers. You wont even know Im firing at you until its too late.... ~S~ all:grin:

[kimosabi]

I'd like to be able to increase my tracers luminition pl0x. I'll pop in an ABBA tune and go all 1976 on yo a$$.

[choctaw111]

To be honest I think what is bothering people (me) most is the absolute perfect regularity of them.
Here they are straight too, but the edges are a bit irregular, and they appear to fade and even disappear in places (Big picture):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/Tracer_fire_at_MCB_Camp_Pendleton_DM-ST-89-00210.jpg

Ah yes. Good photos.
A tracer near the end of its burn will flicker sometimes and I had really hoped that this would be included in Cliffs of Dover.
I also hope that the ricochets will be included. Many times when a tracer hits something and bounces off, it will flicker a bit and even change direction in mid air.

[ChrisDNT]

Obviously, many here have only seen tracers on pictures or videos.

Basically, when you fire something with a tracer, you just see the shining ass of the bullet, some kind of a moving point, but again no "Star Wars" lasers.

[choctaw111]

This is the first I have asked this question and I may as well ask it here.
For those complaining about the "Star Wars Laser" look, ask yourself this.
Having never seen tracers in person, do you want them to look like what you think they should look like, or do you want them to look as they would appear in reality.
I am telling you all that the tracers I have seen in Cliffs of Dover are the most realistic I have seen in a game.

[KG26_Alpha]

Obviously, many here have only seen tracers on pictures or videos.

Basically, when you fire something with a tracer, you just see the shining ass of the bullet, some kind of a moving point, but again no "Star Wars" lasers.


This is the first I have asked this question and I may as well ask it here.
For those complaining about the "Star Wars Laser" look, ask yourself this.
Having never seen tracers in person, do you want them to look like what you think they should look like, or do you want them to look as they would appear in reality.
I am telling you all that the tracers I have seen in Cliffs of Dover are the most realistic I have seen in a game.

Agreed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-7geGhY0jY

[choctaw111]

Obviously, many here have only seen tracers on pictures or videos.

Basically, when you fire something with a tracer, you just see the shining ass of the bullet, some kind of a moving point, but again no "Star Wars" lasers.


You are right about the shining ass of a bullet but they very much do look like Star Wars.
Take a laser pointer and shine it at a wall.
You see a point of light but move it around quickly and it becomes a streak. The human eye can no longer see it as a point of light when it moves around at speed.

[Hunden]

This is the first I have asked this question and I may as well ask it here.
For those complaining about the "Star Wars Laser" look, ask yourself this.
Having never seen tracers in person, do you want them to look like what you think they should look like, or do you want them to look as they would appear in reality.
I am telling you all that the tracers I have seen in Cliffs of Dover are the most realistic I have seen in a game.

I have fired weapons with tracers and they do look like lasers until they hit a body then they dont look like lasers anymore.:confused: fisrt time i fired a 105 m from the tank commanders hatch it blew my helmet off that was fun:grin:

[choctaw111]

I have fired weapons with tracers and they do look like lasers until they hit a body then they dont look like lasers anymore.:confused: fisrt time i fired a 105 m from the tank commanders hatch it blew my helmet off that was fun:grin:

Of course I am referring to those that have never seen them in person. :)

[The Kraken]

It's certainly interesting that even people with real-life experience can't seem to agree on whether it's right or not, and that opinions cover the full range between "crap" and "perfect". I wonder if that also applies to other areas where people point out their expert opinion (like flight models, in-cockpit sound or grass colour ;)).

[major_setback]

It's certainly interesting that even people with real-life experience can't seem to agree on whether it's right or not, and that opinions cover the full range between "crap" and "perfect". I wonder if that also applies to other areas where people point out their expert opinion (like flight models, in-cockpit sound or grass colour ;)).

I don't think anyone even knows what a laser looks like, yet we are discussing just that!

[HenFre]

I have fired weapons with tracers and they do look like lasers until they hit a body then they dont look like lasers anymore.:confused: fisrt time i fired a 105 m from the tank commanders hatch it blew my helmet off that was fun:grin:

I was a tank commander in the danish army some years back and during live fire exercises we often used the turret machinegune in our Leopard 1A5 :cool:
From the commanders hatch it was easy to see the tracers fired each 5th shoot in the ammobelt and as I recall they actually looked like lasers from Star Wars. So I also think that the effect shown in COD is spot on.. :-P

Good job guys :grin:

PS: One time we loaded an entire 250 round belt with tracers and fired them in one salvo. This looked like one continious red line to the target.

[winny]

Obviously, many here have only seen tracers on pictures or videos.

Basically, when you fire something with a tracer, you just see the shining ass of the bullet, some kind of a moving point, but again no "Star Wars" lasers.

This is true only if you're looking down the sight of the gun that fired it.

If you're off to the side and slightly above (in the cockpit for example) then you'll see some degree of streaking.

I do think that the tracers are too fat though. I think I remember Oleg saying that they had to compromise them slightly in order to make them work though.

[Blackdog_kt]

I won't bore you all to tears with the exact details once again (i explained everything in a very recent thread here, post #26: http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?p=231087#post231087 ) but from my personal experience the summary is:

1) Tracers look like streaks when close to you because the closer distance exaggerates the effect of the angular offset between aimer's viewpoint and line of travel. Angle offset at close range translates to a lot of lateral displacement/apparent size during their motion, the eye/brain can't keep up and they seem to streak.

2) As they move out the same angle offset translates to less lateral displacement over longer ranges, so they change over from streaks to dots.

3) You can see this modeled perfectly in Oleg's fighting sequence video of last week's update during the attack on the Defiant, just pause frame by frame between 0:35 and 0:37 and you can't miss it. Or click on the link provided above, there's a relevant screenshot.

4) Possible improvements? Not many to be honest.
They look a bit too uniform overall and a little "fat" when they are close to the player's viewpoint (personally, my only criticisms), but very similar to real ones after just a second or less of travel.
I can't decide on how "fat" they should be since it depends on ambient light conditions. I would like to see ricochets modeled at some point. Otherwise they look spot on to me.

Finally, in-game camera shutter speed will be adjustable so if anyone wants cinematic tracers and propellers they'll be able to adjust it to their preference.

Overall conclusion: Almost everyone will be happy with what they see eventually.

I hope it helps :grin:

[GOA_Potenz]

i saw tracers with my bared eyes and yes it looks like in game, what you see in guncams is due to shaking camera and poor light caught

[LukeFF]

This is the first I have asked this question and I may as well ask it here.
For those complaining about the "Star Wars Laser" look, ask yourself this.
Having never seen tracers in person, do you want them to look like what you think they should look like, or do you want them to look as they would appear in reality.
I am telling you all that the tracers I have seen in Cliffs of Dover are the most realistic I have seen in a game.

Totally agreed. I've seen everything from 5.56mm to 25mm tracers from my time in the military, and IMO 1C got this one right.

[Heliocon]

These are not what you see in real life. You dont see a bar - you see a streak, its very bright but it doesnt look like what is in the picture. Yes it does have a laser like quality, but so does a sprinkler if you swish it fast enough, which is closer to what a tracer looks like. The problem for me with the picture itself is that the light/bar is even in its intensity which it shouldnt be. Front end should be alot brighter then the back. Its a residual image, not a bar.

[Voyager]

I have braved the deeps of TV Tropes to bring you This! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RealityIsUnrealistic) clutched in the hands of my battered being, time pouring from my wounds.

Use it, use it well!

[Robert]

It just looks as close as an unedited photo could get to pop art, that's all I mean. :)

Ahhhhhhhhh. I got you. I agree with your sentiments. I still love the pic, and have it as a desk top. It's not so bad blown up. It looks like CoD screen shots without AA. (JUST KIDDING!! LOL)

[gonk]

damn TV.... it has a lot to answer for... :grin:

nice music with that video...

Agreed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-7geGhY0jY

[ChrisDNT]

This is true only if you're looking down the sight of the gun that fired it.

If you're off to the side and slightly above (in the cockpit for example) then you'll see some degree of streaking.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


I was AA gunner on the Oerlikon54, basically an improved WWII design cannon.

I fired the cannon from the gunner seat and I saw the cannons firing away from the battery.

I never saw even a single time any "lasers".

The most realistic thing about tracers I evers saw in a sim is the latest mod for gunnery available for IL2 (I can't remember its name).

[JG52Uther]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6rE32Js6Go

[BigPickle]

I think the tracers both look real and not real at the same time.
A tracer used in aircraft has way more smoke trail from the phos on the bullet base (more phos to get a longer burn i would imagine)
So on screens the clean line without smoke trail emitting from the line isnt strictly right in my opinion, but the tracer itself is.
I think someone mentioned they look too clean, well the tracer itself should be clean, its the smoke trail from it that should twist and snake, and that smoke trail should be there for as long as the tracer is burning.

[ChrisDNT]

Nice VIDEO, Uther.


P.S. have you human eyes in your head or some kind of bionic video system for seeing ?

[winny]

I think the tracers both look real and not real at the same time.
A tracer used in aircraft has way more smoke trail from the phos on the bullet base (more phos to get a longer burn i would imagine)
So on screens the clean line without smoke trail emitting from the line isnt strictly right in my opinion, but the tracer itself is.
I think someone mentioned they look too clean, well the tracer itself should be clean, its the smoke trail from it that should twist and snake, and that smoke trail should be there for as long as the tracer is burning.

(This is RAF specific) The smoke trail tracers were not actually tracers they were Buckingham incendiaries. They ignited on firing and burned on their way to the target. No visible light. They had a small hole in the casing which let the smoke out (spiral tracer smoke). The acutal G Mk II type tracer round, a flaming tracer (visible light, source of the 'laser debate') was smokeless, as was the 'de-wilde'.

[JG52Uther]

Well some ex military people are stating that the tracers look unrealistic,and some ex military people are stating that the tracers look realistic.

[T}{OR]

Well some ex military people are stating that the tracers look unrealistic,and some ex military people are stating that the tracers look realistic.

I still haven't seen comments from 'ex military' people that are saying they don't look realistic.

Blackdog made a good comment that if anything they look a bit too thick.

[Baron]

I still haven't seen comments from 'ex military' people that are saying they don't look realistic.

Blackdog made a good comment that if anything they look a bit too thick.


Thats the funny thing, u dont even have to be ex military to understand that it looks "pretty much" how it should.

Every single clip/pic showing tracer fire shows different variations on the same theme.


The only thing i can think of is that Oleg is "representing" tracers the way filmcameras/pics show it and not the human eye when you are "there" so to speak, for dramatic effect. From personal experience a single shot with tracer does/did not produce that streak, at least not clearly or slowly enough for me to see it. (would however have done so if i filmed it and paused it at the exact right moment). High rate machingun fire is another thing as far as i know. I also think the "clarety" of the effect is more pronounced at night compared to daylight.

[Gribbers]

Had a lot of military training (but was never actually in the military)...fired and saw many different tracers from various platforms, and these look fine to me :grin: And based on some of the real WW2 gun cam footage I've seen I think the team have done a great job!

If I was going to be pernickety (which I will ;)), then:

a) I remember red tracer to be slightly front heavy, trailing off towards the rear of the streak...when viewing from the rear that is...
b) tracers were a lot brighter, even in day time...actually looked like fire and had the same brightness...but I don't think any game can represent that on a screen.


Then again, I don't have any experience viewing tracers at 2000ft, flying at 300mph+, so will assume that Oleg and team know better than I do. :grin:
Besides, when I'm firing all cannons/guns, I won't be judging the realism of the tracer, I'll desperately be trying to keep my sights on the target and hold the right angle and speed.

[T}{OR]

b) tracers were a lot brighter, even in day time...actually looked like fire and had the same brightness...but I don't think any game can represent that on a screen.

Hehe :)

This is one of the biggest 'complaint' from what I have read on various forums - people want them to be less bright in daylight. Good to have someone saying that they should be more brighter.

In engineer terms: Oleg made a compromise, not too bright and not too dark - just perfect. An interpolation. :-P

[Sternjaeger]

yes, maybe a bit too thick, but that's it :)

To be honest I'd rather remove them altogether: Leonard "Kit" Carson and his squadron used to fly without tracers, since they give a false impression of distance and expose your attacking position.

[TheGrunch]

You can do this in the armament screen. ;) One of the first things I'll try to get used to too.

[Gribbers]

Hehe :)

This is one of the biggest 'complaint' from what I have read on various forums - people want them to be less bright in daylight. Good to have someone saying that they should be more brighter.

In engineer terms: Oleg made a compromise, not too bright and not too dark - just perfect. An interpolation. :-P


Fair enough, and they still look good :grin:

[Robotic Pope]

Nice VIDEO, Uther.


P.S. have you human eyes in your head or some kind of bionic video system for seeing ?

lol. This is part of the problem huh, Some people think they should look as if some one is videoing the action complete with overexposure effects, while others think they sould be shown as they would look with our own eyes.

Another problem is that everyones brain and eyes aren't identical, one person could see tracers as long SW lasers while the other percieves them far shorter, just like you would get different results if you used two different makes of video camera to film the same gun firing tracers.

[swiss]

I fired the cannon from the gunner seat and I saw the cannons firing away from the battery.

I never saw even a single time any "lasers".


That's the point - it's a matter of projectile speed and observer angle.
If you watch the tracer from a 90° angle and 10ft distance you'll get lasers.
Decrease angle or increase distance and you'll get dot's again.

This laser effect is made by your brain.

Someone told me a dragonfly can process up to 300fps - if that's true they would never experience the laser effect.

[Blackdog_kt]

That's the point - it's a matter of projectile speed and observer angle.
If you watch the tracer from a 90° angle and 10ft distance you'll get lasers.
Decrease angle or increase distance and you'll get dot's again.

This laser effect is made by your brain.

Someone told me a dragonfly can process up to 300fps - if that's true they would never experience the laser effect.

Absolutely spot on and that's why i think the in-game tracers are realistic..it not only models exactly what you describe, but also the transition from one effect to the other :

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/attachment.php?attachmentid=4858&d=1299856407


Also, interesting bit of trivia on the dragonfly, damn insects in general have insane vision.

[swiss]

Also, interesting bit of trivia on the dragonfly, damn insects in general have insane vision.

I you think about it; that would put you in the position to see an incoming bullet virtually in slowmo - yet you can't dodge it.

[nearmiss]

Looks to me like the new tracers will probably make online play easier.

You won't have to spend much effort to find the enemy, especially when he shoots.

It may be the tracers will be easier to see at distance than the miniscule dots on the screen, representing the aircraft.

I'll trust Luthier on this one. Timelapse photos really don't tell the whole story do they?
:rolleyes:

[Necrobaron]

I've always thought it was humorous when people complain that these tracers look like Star Wars "lasers". What most don't consider is that the truth is the exact opposite. SW lasers look like tracers. It's no secret that the SW movies borrowed heavily from WWII aviation. Heck the cockpit of the Millenium Falcon is very similar to that of a B-29 and the famous TIE fighters are basically B-17/B-24 ballturrets with the MGs removed and vertical solar panels added. Most of the "space combat" sequences were inspired by or copied from old WWII aerial combat footage.

[choctaw111]

lol. This is part of the problem huh, Some people think they should look as if some one is videoing the action complete with overexposure effects, while others think they sould be shown as they would look with our own eyes.

Another problem is that everyones brain and eyes aren't identical, one person could see tracers as long SW lasers while the other percieves them far shorter, just like you would get different results if you used two different makes of video camera to film the same gun firing tracers.

I had given some thought to this.
It is very true that different people have different levels of visual acuity.
A good example of this is the famous baseball player Joe DiMagio.
He could actually see where his bat was making contact with the spinning baseball.
To be able to see things that happen that quickly can only mean that his eyes had a much higher "framerate" than mine.
When I saw tracers, I saw streaks. Someone like Joe DiMagio would probably not have.

[266_sqn_lloyd]

Ok here it is! I know exactly what he is referring to when he mentions these lasers.

Firstly, to those i know it all army gun ho gentlemen who say that this is all correct - then frankly your completely wrong - most of the time from the perspective of early Spitfires which did not use tracer rounds then you would not see anything apart from the actual hits i.e. smoke and maybe some combustion - only later models was there tracer and so on to point 2.

Secondly, tracer fire could be seen but because of the barrel twist all tracer round would be seen as a slight spiralling effect and not (straight elongated laser type effect.)

So point being yes he is correct that it looks wrong as they look like lasers, and two there would actually be vapour trails which they do not show.

And that’s final - no come back just do your research!!!!

[Necrobaron]

ok here it is! I know exactly what he is referring to when he mentions these lasers.

Firstly, to those i know it all army gun ho gentlemen who say that this is all correct - then frankly your completely wrong - most of the time from the perspective of early spitfires which did not use tracer rounds then you would not see anything apart from the actual hits i.e. Smoke and maybe some combustion - only later models was there tracer and so on to point 2.

Secondly, tracer fire could be seen but because of the barrel twist all tracer round would be seen as a slight spiralling effect and not (straight elongated laser type effect.)

so point being yes he is correct that it looks wrong as they look like lasers, and two there would actually be vapour trails which they do not show.

And that’s final - no come back just do your research!!!!

lol!

[kimosabi]

Pew pew pew! Lazors rawk!

[ATAG_Doc]

I wonder what it would be like to spend much of my time working on a product only to have nothing but complaining about it even though it isn't even available yet. Has to be very frustrating. My first reaction is to think well...go build your own.

[gonk]

Lets get Myth Busters on to it...LOL

[KG26_Alpha]

I've always thought it was humorous when people complain that these tracers look like Star Wars "lasers". What most don't consider is that the truth is the exact opposite. SW lasers look like tracers. It's no secret that the SW movies borrowed heavily from WWII aviation. Heck the cockpit of the Millenium Falcon is very similar to that of a B-29 and the famous TIE fighters are basically B-17/B-24 ballturrets with the MGs removed and vertical solar panels added. Most of the "space combat" sequences were inspired by or copied from old WWII aerial combat footage.

This is the whole point they don't get, if they are saying the tracers look like SW and CoD has them looking like SW which based them on WW2 tracer rounds then they are correct, the fact no one knows what a laser round looks like as they don't actually exist, the whole discussion is pointless.

I think they are more plasma looking :)



.

[Space Communist]

This is the whole point they don't get, if they are saying the tracers look like SW and CoD has them looking like SW which based them on WW2 tracer rounds then they are correct, the fact no one knows what a laser round looks like as they don't actually exist, the whole discussion is pointless.

I think they are more plasma looking :)



.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUXXGbNS8oY

Here is an example of what a laser weapon would look like. While this is much lower power than anything that could really be used as a weapon, the visual would be similar. Lasers, particularly high-powered ones, are not normally visible as a beam. This is because the whole point of a laser is that the light does not scatter, therefore the only way to see the beam would be for it to be shot into your eye.

When laser beams are visualized it's because there is particulate matter in the air that scatters the beam. The flash of light you see when this one fires comes entirely from incandescence of the target, and possibly a bit of ionization of the air.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtxwT6PQIw8

here is an actual laser weapon test, again even with this powerful beam you do not see the beam itself, but only a bright spot on the UAV as the laser burns it.

Also of course there is no (perceptible) travel time for a laser beam, even if you could see the beam itself it would just be a perfectly straight line from the weapon to the target for the duration of discharge.

So long story short: I agree Star Wars looks a lot more like WWII than sci-fi :p

[Skoshi Tiger]

One of the big problems with representing tracers on a computer monitor is that they just can't display the light intensities required to do it accurately. Its the same as being dazzled by the sun and bright light sources. Our monitors just can't do it.

The funny thing is to do it correctly we'll probably have to wait till they make a laser projector that draws the images directly onto our retinas!

Cheers!

[Heliocon]

Well I am not military, but have seen plenty of gunfire etc. Like I said in an earlier thread, its a perspective problem. When firing or getting shot at from straight on they look more like dots, when parallel they are bars. But as someone else mentioned, it may just be these problems:
1. Tracer is too thick for daytime, at night when there is a dark background the tracer would "glow" brighter (although they look very distinct when you see them) versus in day you would see it radiating light as much (so in the pics it looks too thick, whether thats is actual geometry or just bad lighting effects I do not know.
2. It just looks alittle weird to see a tracer frozen in mid air like in the photos, they move so fast, at close range you can even track them with your eye.

[Blackdog_kt]

Ok here it is! I know exactly what he is referring to when he mentions these lasers.

Firstly, to those i know it all army gun ho gentlemen who say that this is all correct - then frankly your completely wrong - most of the time from the perspective of early Spitfires which did not use tracer rounds then you would not see anything apart from the actual hits i.e. smoke and maybe some combustion - only later models was there tracer and so on to point 2.

Secondly, tracer fire could be seen but because of the barrel twist all tracer round would be seen as a slight spiralling effect and not (straight elongated laser type effect.)

So point being yes he is correct that it looks wrong as they look like lasers, and two there would actually be vapour trails which they do not show.

And that’s final - no come back just do your research!!!!

Since you're getting a bit aggressive here with not much more than a "take it or leave it" attitude to back up your assessment, let me just say that my "research" involved firing dual 20mm Rheinmentall cannons very similar to the ones found on many German fighters of WWII. They shake, they kick up dust, they have quite a few moving parts and quite a lot of wiggle room for the barrels to vibrate (it's very perceptible, you can just grab the end of the barrel, give it a shake and you can see and feel it moving inside its mount) and still the tracers appear straight as an arrow.

The first time we fired them in training there was about 200 soldiers all going "wow, so that's what they really look like? nothing like the movies!" all at once.

I wish i had their phone numbers available so you could call them and have them confirm it for you one by one. Care to share what YOUR research is? ;)

As for your comment on the Spitfires not using tracer ammo:
a) if it's not using tracers the point is already moot and
b) it's a load-out option in the game so you can do the same if you want to

You can like or not like the tracers, that's your opinion and i don't care enough to convince you otherwise. However, the same goes for my opinion and unless you're a qualified eye doctor who can prove me blind, i'll stand by what i saw with my own eyes in real life and not on some computer screen or TV.

It's perfectly fine to have your opinion and personal sense of taste in the matter, however that doesn't make your opinion somehow better, more realistic or factual unless you have some similar experience as a reference to compare to. No offence meant or taken either way, just trying to explain that if you want to convince those of us who've seen these things fly in real life you'll have to try much harder and provide some background of personal experience, a theory even loosely based on principles of physics/science or a credible reference.

[Magusfunk]

Hello,

As many others here i have also seen real tracers when i was under service at Finnish army. And one time when we got to shooting range at night really stuck to my mind. Lazers, red lazers everywhere. :D So to mee Olegs tracers arent far from the truth. Only thing is that in daylight they should not be as bright as they are in pictures imo. And they are little bit too thick for a machine gun rounds. Maybe for MK 108 or MG 151/20 those would be fine. But otherwise, fricking good job. And other thing what is bothering me is people fighting about them when the GAME has not even come out yet. So....

Magus

[The Kraken]

Well I am not military, but have seen plenty of gunfire etc.

Real-life or videos...?

2. It just looks alittle weird to see a tracer frozen in mid air like in the photos, they move so fast, at close range you can even track them with your eye.

Indeed, even people who do have military experience have most likely not seen WW2 tracer ammo fired perpendicularly to them at close range - and if they have, they probably had better things to do than an appearance analysis :-P

[winny]

Ok here it is! I know exactly what he is referring to when he mentions these lasers.

Firstly, to those i know it all army gun ho gentlemen who say that this is all correct - then frankly your completely wrong - most of the time from the perspective of early Spitfires which did not use tracer rounds then you would not see anything apart from the actual hits i.e. smoke and maybe some combustion - only later models was there tracer and so on to point 2.

Secondly, tracer fire could be seen but because of the barrel twist all tracer round would be seen as a slight spiralling effect and not (straight elongated laser type effect.)

So point being yes he is correct that it looks wrong as they look like lasers, and two there would actually be vapour trails which they do not show.

And that’s final - no come back just do your research!!!!


Bold statement, partly correct (as in the use of 'flame tracers' was limited in the BoB RAF wise)...

3 types of tracer were available (I keep repeating this sorry..)
2 were flame tracer one was smoke tracer. (is this what you're refering too when you say vapour trails?) I've never seen any footage of vapour trails being left by bullets.

Depending on your viewpoint the flame tracers would either look like bars of light (to the side) or dots of light (from directly behind).

If anyone would care to actually think about what they see every day they would soon realise that light from very bright objects streaks when moving. I can move an led torch in circles rapidly to make one continuous circle. In daylight. To say that bright objects moving fast don't streak is the exact opposite of what actually happens.

[badfinger]

So, the only reason the tracers look like lasers is that George Lucas decided this was how a laser shot would look, if you could see one?

This whole debate is an incredible waste of time.

binky9

[robtek]

So, the only reason the tracers look like lasers is that George Lucas decided this was how a laser shot would look, if you could see one?

This whole debate is an incredible waste of time.

binky9

Not entirely correct, real spacefights would be really uncool in a movie theatre, as would real laser beams be.
So George Lucas decided to use the cool flight mechanics and tracers from wwii combat footage, just replace the background with space and the corsairs with x-wings / zeros with tie-fighters -> voilá: a cool spacefight!

[LukeFF]

And to think we don't even have the Fw 190 yet... :rolleyes:

[nearmiss]

And to think we don't even have the Fw 190 yet... :rolleyes:

Yeah! that will open a whole new area of misconduct and rants.:rolleyes:

[nearmiss]

Agreed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-7geGhY0jY


Based on this video and many others I've seen...

Tracers don't follow a straight line, because the shooting aircraft never has complete fixed control. Flying aircraft are always bouncing and smoke trails definitely erratically accompany the tracers. It doesn't seem to matter what your vantage point is either.

So, if we get the full real tracers described we should also have erratic tracers and smoke trails.

Big straight bolts of light don't fit the picture of any full real viewing I've ever seen from any gun cam, or other outside views.

I recall first time I saw gun cam I thought to myself, what good are the tracers.

The tracers appear to be more efficient for targeting from a fixed platform like ground of ship mounted guns.

Regardless, we'll either work with them or raise so much stink we get what we think we should have. LOL

[Biggs]

Yeah! that will open a whole new area of misconduct and rants.:rolleyes:

Hey hey dont get ahead of yourselves now... Before any of that happens we will surely be buried in 'the 109/spit is porked' and or 'the 109/spit is overmodeled' threads...

Im building my whine-raid shelter as we speak!

[badfinger]

"So George Lucas decided to use the cool flight mechanics and tracers from wwii combat footage, just replace the background with space and the corsairs with x-wings / zeros with tie-fighters -> voilá: a cool spacefight!"

So, Lucas copied WWII tracers in StarWars, CoD is set in WWII, ergo, the tracers in CoD look right?

Still, a waste of time.

binky9

[JAMF]

"So George Lucas decided to use the cool flight mechanics and tracers from wwii combat footage, just replace the background with space and the corsairs with x-wings / zeros with tie-fighters -> voilá: a cool spacefight!"

So, Lucas copied WWII tracers in StarWars, CoD is set in WWII, ergo, the tracers in CoD look right?

Still, a waste of time.

binky9If Lucas had used visuals, that would have looked like lasers, it would have been less exciting. A laser would have been a straight line to the target, there one moment, gone the next. No streak that your eyes would be able to follow, so it would appear bland, like having no noise in a space movie.

A tracer we see, is a point of light at the end of a bullet, but as our eyes have their own "frame rate", they appear as streaks of certain length. Like twirling sparklers in a circle. So Lucas used streaks, as they are more exciting.

[Voyager]

Based on this video and many others I've seen...

Tracers don't follow a straight line, because the shooting aircraft never has complete fixed control. Flying aircraft are always bouncing and smoke trails definitely erratically accompany the tracers. It doesn't seem to matter what your vantage point is either.

So, if we get the full real tracers described we should also have erratic tracers and smoke trails.

Big straight bolts of light don't fit the picture of any full real viewing I've ever seen from any gun cam, or other outside views.

I recall first time I saw gun cam I thought to myself, what good are the tracers.

The tracers appear to be more efficient for targeting from a fixed platform like ground of ship mounted guns.

Regardless, we'll either work with them or raise so much stink we get what we think we should have. LOL

The erratic trails are because the camera is being violently shaken every time you shoot the gun. From what I am given the understand ( and have noticed in other contexts) people have exceptionally good built-in picture stabilization. Unless you're in a sensory illusion, you're going to perceive the final image as though it were shot from a stationary camera oriented with gravity down. Likewise, if you're caught in a sensory illusion, the final image is going to be stabilized to whatever you *think* is fixed down.

You can try this out for yourself by finding a reasonably open area, and spinning around a few dozen turns, the opening your eyes. Note how the world will still be spinning, even if you're flat on your back? That's a sensory illusion, and having your visual frame of reference disrupted is one of the effects of it.

This is, coincidentally, one of the big reasons blind flying is so dangerous for untrained pilots. It takes less than a minute for your internal sense of up and down to get scrambled to the point that what you think is up, happens to really be an inverted spiral dive into the ground.

[seb120]

Yea, im just going to leave this here........
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_YEkWG11gxYs/SwFYpMHqgvI/AAAAAAAAAM4/C5qPIqwQ9lM/s1600/beat_dead_horse2.jpg
No but seriously, the tracers are perfect. Videos that show the sperm like traces are made from camera's in the 40's......they don't show what a PERSON would actually see.

[Royraiden]

Based on this video and many others I've seen...

Tracers don't follow a straight line, because the shooting aircraft never has complete fixed control. Flying aircraft are always bouncing and smoke trails definitely erratically accompany the tracers. It doesn't seem to matter what your vantage point is either.

So, if we get the full real tracers described we should also have erratic tracers and smoke trails.

Big straight bolts of light don't fit the picture of any full real viewing I've ever seen from any gun cam, or other outside views.

I recall first time I saw gun cam I thought to myself, what good are the tracers.

The tracers appear to be more efficient for targeting from a fixed platform like ground of ship mounted guns.

Regardless, we'll either work with them or raise so much stink we get what we think we should have. LOL

You have a good point there.Climbing/diving/turning,banking all could affect how the tracers look to the pilot

[choctaw111]

You "complainers" seriously have no idea.

[WTE_Galway]

??

Not a huge fan of his, so I've never really looked at much of his work. Are you telling me Andy did this, Grunch? Or am I totally clueless to the reference? LOL

He was not huge on airplanes but did do a few.

This one was up for sale recently ...

http://www.artvalue.com/auctionresult--warhol-andy-1928-1987-usa-aeroplane-2056696.htm

http://www.artvalue.com/photos/auction/0/44/44372/warhol-andy-1928-1987-usa-aeroplane-2056696.jpg

[Jaws2002]

Damn. Even the taliban have lazors now.:mrgreen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DjqR6OucBc