Poll regarding Steam users

[Biggs]

I just wanted to see what the community at large thinks of Steam, as it seems like there are quite a number of people that either don't have it or choose not to have it for various reasons...

Im trying not to start anything in the way of a argument over whether Steam is good or bad, just want to see its usage.

[JG53Frankyboy]

i have purchased only 3 games that needed STEAM in my PC life :D
i had with all three proplems, 2 of them i could not install.

I would prefer not to be forced to use STEAM at least during the install, i have already preordered a DVD version :D
in general, i have nothing against STEAM, and i have no expereince with its "server browser" system.
and, for people who have no proplems with the programm, IF CoD will be avaialble via STEAM, it can be much more easy for them to purchase the game too !

[Codex]

I use STEAM for all my games, including games that weren't published via STEAM , I link them into STEAM so I can access all my games from one app. It's great.

[rcmodels]

I buy most of my pc games through Steam, and have never had an issue. In terms of digital distribution, I think its the best out there.

[sfmadmax]

I honestly don't see what the big deal is, so many ppl bickering about steam. If you don't like it.. don't use it.

[Hecke]

I honestly don't see what the big deal is, so many ppl bickering about steam. If you don't like it.. don't use it.

Sure, but what if we have to use it if we want to play Cliffs of Dover...

[Darbo]

last game addon i bought on steam last week downloaded at 500-550k per second
its not bad
holds the games you purchase in its games library so you can just re download them if required
only time they really annoyed me was when i bought a game on ebay and when i tried to install said this code is not for your region bla bla so basically i wasted my money
didnt buy any games from steam for about 3 years after that
even now i let alot of games slide that i would of previously bought
i dont think it pays for companys to piss off the people that spend money with them

:)
Darbo

[Codex]

Sure, but what if we have to use it if we want to play Cliffs of Dover...

Then you'll need to install and use Steam, otherwise no CoD.

[Revvin]

I've not had any issues with Steam. I view the features it has as a bonus not a reason to not buy a game.

[ElAurens]

I've used it a couple of times in the past.

I had Red Orchestra, and a couple games I cannot even remember anymore.

I just don't like the idea of not having the disc in my hands. And I had issues with their login system all the time, and well, it does not matter really, as I won't use Steam ever again.

[Novotny]

That's a pity El Aurens, as I had thought you were looking forward to CoD. Il-2 will still be a fine game for many years to come, though.

[Codex]

You know you can make installable DVD backups of any steam game and you don't need to be connected to the net to play, only to activate the game.

[JG53Frankyboy]

just to make it clear again, this topic is because of this, not totaly clear :( , blog entry:
"We received many questions about the Digital Rights Management solution used in IL2 : COD. we understand it is an important subject for many of you, and we are a glad to tell you that IL2 Sturmovik: Cliff of Dover will use the SolidShield DRM solution. SolidShield features a flexible activation process and allows for up to 3 simultaneous game installs.

Please note that the game will also use the Steam platform for services such as matchmaking, anti-cheat etc… So you will need a Steam account to play the game."


http://il-2-sturmovik.ubi.com/cliffs-of-dovers/blog/uk/?p=1162

[Sven]

If Steam would sell CoD that's great, with all the benefits for users and developer. It would please all who like Steam's environment. However, why do we need Steam in order to play while we have a splendid protection system from the sounds of it? Isn't that enough?

Options are always nice, I hope it just means: You need a steam account if you buy it through Steam ( logical) , as I do not see the direct need for it. Why hassle the community up with yet another requirement?

[ElAurens]

That's a pity El Aurens, as I had thought you were looking forward to CoD. Il-2 will still be a fine game for many years to come, though.

Are you saying I have to use Steam to play the game?

:confused:

[Codex]

@JG53Frankyboy (http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/member.php?u=3402)

I think you need to be specific about why you're against Steam. Copying a section of text is fine but you need to specify what your main concern is about that section of text.

@Anyone
With Steam you need to set up an account in order to play games, otherwise you can only access the Steam web store. If you buy a game that requires Steam, as stated for CoD, then you need to set up an account.

If you're dead against Steam then I feel sorry for you because you wont be able to play CoD.

[Novotny]

That would seem to be what they're saying. There could be confusion, but the FAQ does say it is required.

[JG53Frankyboy]

the question is:
if you need STEAM only to play ONLINE or to use it in total..

as i said, the blog is not clear in that, at least not for me as a no native english speaker. more clarification from official side would be very nice. and this blog from 7.march is the first mention of STEAM in the CoD development ever!

[Codex]

No offence to anyone but I would have thought that last line in the text spells it out pretty clear: "So you will need a Steam account to play the game."

[ElAurens]

That would seem to be what they're saying. There could be confusion, but the FAQ does say it is required.

If this is true I am canceling all three of my current orders and walking away from the sim.

I had nothing but trouble with Steam when I was playing RO. And it was even harder to ferret all of it out to get it off my machine when I quit playing RO.

This really has ruined my day.

[JG53Frankyboy]

than thank you for clarification :)

EDIT:ups, thx to Codex

[Novotny]

If this is true I am canceling all three of my current orders and walking away from the sim.

I had nothing but trouble with Steam when I was playing RO. And it was even harder to ferret all of it out to get it off my machine when I quit playing RO.

This really has ruined my day.

El Aurens, there are 2.1 million people playing games on Steam at this very moment, and 30 million accounts in existence.

Are you really saying that you will refuse something that you are plainly looking forward to because you don't think it will work, disregarding the fact that it plainly does for so many?

[Codex]

than thank you for clarification :)

EDIT:ups, thx to Codex

And my work here is done ;)

I think I'll put together a community FAQ to clear up all of this mess, trouble is I can't access certain websites from work including Steam. This forum is the only freedom I've got :P

[ElAurens]

What I am saying is that I don't like Steam, and don't like being forced to use it.

I don't care really how many do use it, that is their prerogative.

It's another process (several really) running in the background, phoning home all the time. It's an unnecessary complication.

Damn, I was so looking forward to the new sim.

:(

[Novotny]

I admire the courage of your convictions. When so many others are having a damn fine time, but you stand apart, refusing to get involved must require a real strength of character.

Btw, I'm running Steam atm, as you'd probably guess. It's using 88mb of memory. By way of comparison Chrome, my browser, is using 217mb.

I have 4 gigs of ram. This footprint is not really killing me. As regards it phoning home - I don't think you have anything to worry about; unless, of course, you do have something to worry about.

Edit: I'd like to recognise the truth of El Auren noting it is a complication. But it is a very, very minor complication, and one that comes with many additional benefits. It's really worth weighing these up judiciously and without prejudice; but all I hear from the NOSTEAM crowd is prejudice and fear.

But hey! It's up to you. Some people just hate moving with the times. As said, IL-2 is a fine piece of software and whilst I regret leaving you back in the last decade, you gotta stay where you're happy. I wish you could come with us.

[WTE_Galway]

This is kind of a biased survey.

The sort of person that is online and posting on forums is most likely already using Steam. (Most of the real life people I know that play or have played IL2_1946 bought it in a store and have never played it online ever, those people obviously never come to this forum)

That is going to bias the results a bit.

[Novotny]

yes; the sort of person who embraces new technology is likely to be already using fairly old technology. They probably are biased as to its worth, as they established that a long time ago, hence their current use of said tech.

[Novotny]

This whole business reminds me of a discussion I had in 1995 regarding the internet. I was rather keen on it, and was telling my friend about all these great guitar tutorials on tunings I had found, without needing to buy expensive books.

I went on about it a bit too much probably, because eventually he exploded and and said that 'there was nothing on the internet you couldn't get in a good library!' and a great deal more I can't clearly recall. I was shocked at the vehemence of his response, though we were drinking and had certainly reached a level of refreshment almost commensurate with the horizontal. I never mentioned those interwebs again to him, and eventually we lost contact.

I'd be very surprised if he still held that view quite so dearly today.

[Fearfactor]

I've been looking forward to this sim for years and been on this forum for a good while too but sad to say I won't buy this som now. I'll buy ROF instead even though it doesn't have much for oflline players. At least they eventually stopped the constant online requirement. Something Oleg and crew apparently did not learn a lesson from. I really don't play online so I don't want to even have a connection up when I play a game.

[Fearfactor]

This is kind of a biased survey.

The sort of person that is online and posting on forums is most likely already using Steam. (Most of the real life people I know that play or have played IL2_1946 bought it in a store and have never played it online ever, those people obviously never come to this forum)

That is going to bias the results a bit.What are you talking about? I have always played Il2 offine, at least 99% of the time. And I have haunted all of the forums. Do you think that just because someone prefers to play a game in offline mode means they never get on a computer and get on the internet?? If that were true how would I have ever found out about new game updates or patches and such? Or get help with a game problem. Heck, if I played IL2 but never got online on a PC I'd probably still be playing the original title from 2001 with no patches at all, just the original game. Oh wait! I guess people like us get game patches from friends by having them snail mail them to us on a CDR!! NOT!!

[Ctrl E]

i really enjoy steam. it's simple and easy to use.

i don't see what the problem is.

it's the future chaps - deal with it.

[6S.Manu]

I've been looking forward to this sim for years and been on this forum for a good while too but sad to say I won't buy this som now. I'll buy ROF instead even though it doesn't have much for oflline players. At least they eventually stopped the constant online requirement. Something Oleg and crew apparently did not learn a lesson from. I really don't play online so I don't want to even have a connection up when I play a game.

You have to be online only for the activation. Games in Steam can be runned also in Offline Mode.

[Royraiden]

A lot of people have the wrong idea of Steam,thinking that games with it need a constant internet connection to work and that is not the case.Even more you can run games bought through Steam without actually using Steam.

[Blackdog_kt]

i have purchased only 3 games that needed STEAM in my PC life :D
i had with all three proplems, 2 of them i could not install.

I would prefer not to be forced to use STEAM at least during the install, i have already preordered a DVD version :D
in general, i have nothing against STEAM, and i have no expereince with its "server browser" system.
and, for people who have no proplems with the programm, IF CoD will be avaialble via STEAM, it can be much more easy for them to purchase the game too !

I have similar experience from working at a web cafe for about three years. It wasn't garbage but it wasn't great either. In any case, my experience with it didn't convince me to choose Steam for any of my gaming purchases.

I have no problem with it as long as it works offline, i can bypass auto-updates in favor of manual patching, can roll back to a previous version and have multiple installs. The final verdict is a tie, since i know you can do the first two easily, but the third requires a complete copy of the game folder and the fourth is said to be impossible.

The main advantages in using Steam are word of mouth advertisement by people who have other Steam games (i don't even have all of my real-life friends in my starcraft2 contact list and don't own any Steam games, so i wouldn't qualify as exactly helpful in this regard, but others might) in favor of the development team, plus the ability to download and install the game in case of a damaged disc as far as direct benefits to the customer are concerned. Everything else is stuff that's welcome but i really don't care much about or have any real need/use for.

I think i'm going to get the sim anyway, but i definitely don't want to install through Steam and i really hope Steam is only there as a server browser and not much else for those of us who purchase a hard copy version.
Then i'm going to mouth off on Ubi's support forums with the entitlement of a paying customer every time a problem arises in the hopes of making it optional for the next expansion in the series. :-P


If Steam would sell CoD that's great, with all the benefits for users and developer. It would please all who like Steam's environment. However, why do we need Steam in order to play while we have a splendid protection system from the sounds of it? Isn't that enough?

Options are always nice, I hope it just means: You need a steam account if you buy it through Steam ( logical) , as I do not see the direct need for it. Why hassle the community up with yet another requirement?

Exactly.


I've been looking forward to this sim for years and been on this forum for a good while too but sad to say I won't buy this som now. I'll buy ROF instead even though it doesn't have much for oflline players. At least they eventually stopped the constant online requirement. Something Oleg and crew apparently did not learn a lesson from. I really don't play online so I don't want to even have a connection up when I play a game.

No luck mate, they only dropped it for scripted campaigns. Their dynamic campaign still needs to download each mission from the master server. As for what their new dynamic campaign will work like, i have no idea.

To be fair though, Steam is actually much less severe than RoF's system, you can play offline with Steam just fine.
It's just the fact that copy protection is already handled by Solidshield and that we'll be getting perfectly good boxed editions that gets me puzzled about why having to integrate it in the first place.

[Kikuchiyo]

I'm against 1C Maddox increasing their profits through digital distribution, and for protecting their intellectual properties. I really hate any changes, and I don't understand this Steam at all. I am now going to give some anecdotal evidence that is extremely vague to back up my argument.

It honestly sounds like many of you never really gave Steam a shot. There are a number of threads on the first page of this forum. Read through them ask questions. Many of us it seems do use Steam, and have shown through out those threads that we are also knowledgeable about the service. There have been links showing that 1C Publishing really likes the service.

In the beginning when Steam was first introduced I really didn't like that concept of it, but it was easy enough to create an account and log it in. Literally logging in is either automatic at start up, you can choose to have to type your password in every time, or you can just set it to start in offline mode at start, or for it to not auto start at all. Please before you go boycotting this game that you've been looking forward to dare to ask those of us that are knowledgeable about the service questions.

If you've had trouble with it in the past be specific about what that trouble was. No one can help you out when you are extremely vague about the source of your woes.

[Novotny]

HERESY! APOSTASY! FLAPJACKS! You think you can come in here with your fancy reason and hoity-toity considered approach? Do you not know that this is a flight sim community, the proud residence of the most backward minds in PC Gaming? We don't care for you high-falutin' thoughtfulness round here. Where's my goddamn gun

[Codex]

I'm against 1C Maddox increasing their profits through digital distribution, and for protecting their intellectual properties...

You had me going for a minute then.

[speculum jockey]

I'm totally against this bullshit! I'd rather throw my family into a well and set it on fire before using Steam. Next they're going to want us to start using DSL and other broadband connections.

You'll have to pry my 56k modem from my cold dead hands!

[ElAurens]

My opposition to it is solely based on the less than stellar experience I had with it in the past.

I'm not saying it's the tool of the devil, or any other conspiracy theory that can be ascribed to it.

If I own a hard copy of the sim, purchased through a traditional retailer, that already has copy protection/DRM/anti-zombieware on it already, why should I or anyone else be forced into having yet another layer of complexity added to what is already a very CPU intensive piece of software?

I'm not saying that Maddox Games/1C/UBI should not market on Steam for those that like that approach.

I just don't understand forcing it on everyone, even if they do not buy their copy from Steam.

What is wrong with that?

[Novotny]

Ain't nothing wrong with that, and you're also entirely polite.

What would be a shame though, is not trying it for fear of not liking it. Maybe wait and see how the early adopters feel, but - what's that saying - cutting off your nose to spite your face seems a pity.

[Kikuchiyo]

Ain't nothing wrong with that, and you're also entirely polite.

What would be a shame though, is not trying it for fear of not liking it. Maybe wait and see how the early adopters feel, but - what's that saying - cutting off your nose to spite your face seems a pity.

This sounds a lot like the arguments I have with my kids about trying new foods.

Kid:"It looks yucky I want chicken nuggets"
Me:"Have you tried it?"
Kid:"NO, cuz I won't like it"
Me:"How can you know you won't like it if you don't try it. Now take a bight."
Kid:*nibbles at food, five minutes later the plate is cleared.
Me:"How was it?"
Kid:"Very yummy!"

[Novotny]

hehe. In fairness to El Aurens, and a few others, they have had bad experiences with Steam. I'm just willing to bet that Steam has improved, and/or their system may have played a part, or lastly but most definitely, our community can help iron out any issues that crop up for anyone.

[speculum jockey]

My opposition to it is solely based on the less than stellar experience I had with it in the past.

I'm not saying it's the tool of the devil, or any other conspiracy theory that can be ascribed to it.

If I own a hard copy of the sim, purchased through a traditional retailer, that already has copy protection/DRM/anti-zombieware on it already, why should I or anyone else be forced into having yet another layer of complexity added to what is already a very CPU intensive piece of software?

I'm not saying that Maddox Games/1C/UBI should not market on Steam for those that like that approach.

I just don't understand forcing it on everyone, even if they do not buy their copy from Steam.

What is wrong with that?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBXyB7niEc0&feature=player_detailpage#t=15s

[Razorhead]

I'm using Steam a few years now, Halflife, TF2, L4D2, Il2-1946 and it works perfect. Downloading goes with 2 - 3 mb/s.

[Les]

Anyone out there who doesn't know and is wondering what this Steam stuff is all about can install it and have a look for themselves -

http://store.steampowered.com/about/

I'm hoping they've just made the Steam requirement compulsory for using the game's built-in server-browsing features, and that we can still use third-party utilities like Hyperlobby, by-passing the in-game browser and Steam altogether if we want to, but I kind of doubt it. I thought the fact that they're effectively using two forms of DRM/activation, SolidShield's and Steam's, might make that so, but looking into it I see there are several other games out there that require both SolidShield and Steam activation. So...

While there is the slim possibility that Ubisoft's decision to require activation via SolidShield DRM means it may not be necessary to use Steam at all, the chances are, they've just added that in on top of Steam's built-in activation requirements.

Not enough information at this point to be absolutely sure about it. But, "Please note that the game will also use the Steam platform for services such as matchmaking, anti-cheat etc… So you will need a Steam account to play the game.", probably does mean, short of cracked versions, you will in fact need to download and install and make a Steam account in order to play online, and to activate your copy of the game even if you then just play off-line.

xxxx happens.

[The Kraken]

I've been looking forward to this sim for years and been on this forum for a good while too but sad to say I won't buy this som now. I'll buy ROF instead even though it doesn't have much for oflline players. At least they eventually stopped the constant online requirement. Something Oleg and crew apparently did not learn a lesson from. I really don't play online so I don't want to even have a connection up when I play a game.

I'm afraid you got that backwards - ROF still needs a constant connection to play the campaign, which will also apply to the coming overhauled campaign, while Steam has a pure offline mode. I've blocked Steam in the Firewall by default and it works just fine that way.

I can't really say I like Steam, as I don't consider the features it provides as substantial (auto-patching and re-downloading are nice but nothing I really need either). But I have to admit it works for me, looks like a solid piece of software that isn't very intrusive and mostly gets out of my way. As far as DRM goes it's about as much as I'm willing to accept - I'm still more worried about that SolidShield stuff because it's new and may have some drawbacks nobody's yet aware of.

[JG52Uther]

I'm hoping they've just made the Steam requirement compulsory for using the game's bulit-in server-browsing features, and that we can still use third-party utilities like Hyperlobby, by-passing the in-game browser and Steam altogether if we want to, but I kind of doubt it. I thought the fact that they're effectively using two forms of DRM/activation, SolidShield's and Steam's, might make that so, but looking into it I see there are several other games out there that require both SolidShield and Steam activation. So...

While there is the slim possibility that Ubisoft's decision to require activation via SolidShield DRM means it may not be necessary to use Steam at all, the chances are, they've just added that in on top of Steam's built-in activation requirements.

Not enough information at this point to be absolutely sure about it. But, "Please note that the game will also use the Steam platform for services such as matchmaking, anti-cheat etc… So you will need a Steam account to play the game.", probably does mean, short of cracked versions, you will in fact need to download and install and make a Steam account in order to play online, and to activate your copy of the game even if you then just play off-line.


My thoughts as well. The fact this was dropped on people 2 weeks before release of CoD is pretty amazing,and you can't even get a straight answer at UBI right now,with even their representative on the forum telling us different info to what is stated on their website!
I have not pre ordered CoD,and will not buy it yet,as there are still a lot of unanswered questions.Its been said many times by people,with UBI involved anything can happen.
I await the next bombshell with baited breath, 'cos I don't think this one will be the last...

[Erkki]

Anyone out there who doesn't know and is wondering what this Steam stuff is all about can install it and have a look for themselves -

http://store.steampowered.com/about/

I'm hoping they've just made the Steam requirement compulsory for using the game's bulit-in server-browsing features, and that we can still use third-party utilities like Hyperlobby, by-passing the in-game browser and Steam altogether if we want to, but I kind of doubt it. I thought the fact that they're effectively using two forms of DRM/activation, SolidShield's and Steam's, might make that so, but looking into it I see there are several other games out there that require both SolidShield and Steam activation. So...

While there is the slim possibility that Ubisoft's decision to require activation via SolidShield DRM means it may not be necessary to use Steam at all, the chances are, they've just added that in on top of Steam's built-in activation requirements.

Not enough information at this point to be absolutely sure about it. But, "Please note that the game will also use the Steam platform for services such as matchmaking, anti-cheat etc… So you will need a Steam account to play the game.", probably does mean, short of cracked versions, you will in fact need to download and install and make a Steam account in order to play online, and to activate your copy of the game even if you then just play off-line.

xxxx happens.

Ubi is really doing its EVERYTHING to make the game sell as little as possible!

I was ready to buy the game and be happy with it even with constant needed online connection. But Steam? I might as well throw the money away.

[Novotny]

Don't do that! I'll give you my paypal details.

[JG52Uther]

For people who are thinking its funny that some are now saying they will not buy CoD,really,its not.Lost sales are a tragedy for the future of CoD,because these are the very people who have been around for years,and could be relied upon to buy every expansion Oleg brings out.
The average gamer kiddie just wants the 'next big thing' all the time,and might buy CoD on steam,but within a few weeks will move on to something else without a backwards glance.
Thats not funny.

[Kikuchiyo]

My thoughts as well. The fact this was dropped on people 2 weeks before release of CoD is pretty amazing,and you can't even get a straight answer at UBI right now,with even their representative on the forum telling us different info to what is stated on their website!
I have not pre ordered CoD,and will not buy it yet,as there are still a lot of unanswered questions.Its been said many times by people,with UBI involved anything can happen.
I await the next bombshell with baited breath, 'cos I don't think this one will be the last...

I seem to recall a few months back it being mentioned that 1C Publishing was wanting to implement Steam, and then in the Igromir videos Steam implementation was quite obvious. They didn't just drop this on us. It's at very least been hinted at for awhile now.

I don't honestly think this is a Ubisoft decision I think this was 1C Publishings decision. That would also make sense why just a few days ago Ilya could say with such confidence that it would be available globally on 3/25. I am starting to think that Ubisoft is ONLY handling boxed copies, and if that is the case I will give as much of my money to 1C Maddox as possible by buying the Steam version of the game.

[Novotny]

Very few of them will actually not get it. Steam is fine, and eventually they will come to realise that. I've been through this before with recalcitrant gamers refusing to use it... until they did.

And Steam will ensure the game is seen by millions, without expensive advertising. Losing 6 sales on the banana forums but gaining several hundred thousand on Steam is a no-brainer.

I'm sorry to see anyone decide to miss out because they are afraid of what will be the standard way to buy games within the next 5 years, and the only way within 10, but if you don't like the future, you don't have to go there. Some people will never accept change. It's a pity.

[csThor]

Barking at Ubisoft (while not unreasonable in 99% of the cases ;) ) is wrong this time. 1C is the big proponent of STEAM and either Oleg or Ilya did drop hints a few weeks back that STEAM would be involved some way or another.

I'm somewhat ambivalent towards STEAM myself. I use it and never had issues, and quite frankly it made things a lot easier for me when I was seriously ill in 2008/2009 and only had a notebook to play with, but I also don't necessarily like having yet another software running in the background. I do not necessarily see advantages for CoD apart from the additional revenue for 1C, since I consider this "going online for playing offline" trend of late a major PITA of every honest customer.

[meshuggahs]

Very few of them will actually not get it. Steam is fine, and eventually they will come to realise that. I've been through this before with recalcitrant gamers refusing to use it... until they did.

And Steam will ensure the game is seen by millions, without expensive advertising. Losing 6 sales on the banana forums but gaining several hundred thousand on Steam is a no-brainer.

I'm sorry to see anyone decide to miss out because they are afraid of what will be the standard way to buy games within the next 5 years, and the only way within 10, but if you don't like the future, you don't have to go there. Some people will never accept change. It's a pity.

Amen.

[Breakfastmachine]

I purchased IL-2 on Steam and I launch it through Steam. Just like every other game I buy. I was a little worried that I wasn't going to be able to purchase CloD on Steam. I'm happy about the announcement. I recently purchased DCS A-10. It was the first game in a couple years that I didn't buy from the service. I really wish I could have gotten it on Steam. It would have made downloading and installing it much more convenient. I know most of the anti-steam crowd will just cover their ears and hum, but it really is the future. I'll be amazed if 5-10 years from now you'll still be able to buy physical copies of PC games and that's fine with me. I hope by then you will have joined us. IL-2 will probably be looking pretty old by then.

# of buyers because of Steam > # of boycotters.

[Kikuchiyo]

I purchased IL-2 on Steam and I launch it through Steam. Just like every other game I buy. I was a little worried that I wasn't going to be able to purchase CloD on Steam. I'm happy about the announcement. I recently purchased DCS A-10. It was the first game in a couple years that I didn't buy from the service. I really wish I could have gotten it on Steam. It would have made downloading and installing it much more convenient. I know most of the anti-steam crowd will just cover their ears and hum, but it really is the future. I'll be amazed if 5-10 years from now you'll still be able to buy physical copies of PC games and that's fine with me. I hope by then you will have joined us. IL-2 will probably be looking pretty old by then.

# of buyers because of Steam > # of boycotters.

But Breakfastmachine we are just kiddies buying the next big shiny thing! It's not like we over at SA have been playing IL-2 for years or anything. :smug:

@JG53Uther Inane gibberish assuming that someone who uses Steam is a kiddie that has no interest in flight sims beyond some toddler's attention span is asinine. Losing a few people that are unwilling to move forward while increasing 1C's profitability and opening it up to a market of 30 million user's day one is a fair trade. If you are going to mope and call foul because you can't face the future than it is your loss. Before you get offended remember you are the one that started the name calling here.

[jameson]

If you're required to have Steam to play offline then I'm not buying. What does it have to do with the game anyway? Why do I want to have a third party program running on my machine at all? The quiet acceptance of giving away your personal information to anyone who pays for it, which you agree to when you sign up to steam just beggars belief. Steam may be benign now but will it always be?

[Defender]

If you're required to have Steam to play offline then I'm not buying. What does it have to do with the game anyway? Why do I want to have a third party program running on my machine at all? The quiet acceptance of giving away your personal information to anyone who pays for it, which you agree to when you sign up to steam just beggars belief. Steam may be benign now but will it always be?

Yes it will, the growth has been beyond exponential and it allows developers to skip the whole physical distribution aspect. PC gaming = lower profit margins and for those looking for games more than a console port, higher output time. Look at movie rentals or music distribution, itunes, netflix.

Other services will come up and try to compete is my prediction, but steam is here to stay. What many are experiencing is a generational gap (i made it up). That moment where you begin to hate the way things have changed and liked it better before. "Today's music sucks, today's ADD console kids are spoiled, cartoons were better in the 80's etc etc.

In my limited experience with life, it's easier and more rewarding to accept technological change than it is to fight it.

[Kikuchiyo]

If you're required to have Steam to play offline then I'm not buying. What does it have to do with the game anyway? Why do I want to have a third party program running on my machine at all? The quiet acceptance of giving away your personal information to anyone who pays for it, which you agree to when you sign up to steam just beggars belief. Steam may be benign now but will it always be?

It says CLEARLY that they do not give away your personal information. Quit being melodramatic.

VVVVV Urp sorry about that JG52Uther. Yeah there are some young people, but it's not fair to assume that all young people are weak willed. VVVVVV

[JG52Uther]

@JG53Uther Inane gibberish assuming that someone who uses Steam is a kiddie that has no interest in flight sims beyond some toddler's attention span is asinine. Losing a few people that are unwilling to move forward while increasing 1C's profitability and opening it up to a market of 30 million user's day one is a fair trade. If you are going to mope and call foul because you can't face the future than it is your loss. Before you get offended remember you are the one that started the name calling here.
Not sure if this is aimed at me because thats not my name but: I have steam,use steam (for RO and DH) but stand by my view that steam is full of kiddies whose attention span only lasts until the next game is released...
:)

[Novotny]

Like that bunch who play Hearts of Iron? You can't scrub 1250 games across all genres as played only by kiddies.

[csThor]

That has nothing to do with STEAM, Uther. The world is full of of kiddies whose attention span only lasts until the next game is released ... ;)

[JG52Uther]

Very true!

[JG52Krupi]

Not sure if this is aimed at me because thats not my name but: I have steam,use steam (for RO and DH) but stand by my view that steam is full of kiddies whose attention span only lasts until the next game is released...
:)

WOW Uther/Everyone calm down Steam is a great tool.

I for one am happy that il2:COD and the total war games use steam. While TW Empire was rubbish broken game it wasn't steams fault this was proven by TW Napoleon which i have yet to experience any problems with, now i am just waiting for TW Shogun 2 brought at retail and then linked to my account, if the disk breaks i can just download it through steam :cool:

Steam is not full of kiddies, games are... steam will bring il2 a new crowd some will leave after a week and others will become regular players as hard as i try to find a downside to steam i just can't its a great tool and downloading is the future of game sales face it.

[Korn]

Options are always nice, I hope it just means: You need a steam account if you buy it through Steam ( logical) , as I do not see the direct need for it. Why hassle the community up with yet another requirement?

I was just going to post something like this. Why do I need Steam if I buy the dvd or some (other then Steam delivered) downloadable version? I just hope the dude who posted the Steam requirements doesn't know what he's talking about, it's not like that would be a first with Ubi guys :cool:.

If they try to force me to install Steam then they can kiss my money goodbye. That simple.

I wonder how things are with the russian market. I have no problem buying from Russia, just need a language selector. I'd rather have some of what i'm paying going to 1C then to Ubi.

[Kikuchiyo]

I was just going to post something like this. Why do I need Steam if I buy the dvd or some (other then Steam delivered) downloadable version? I just hope the dude who posted the Steam requirements doesn't know what he's talking about, it's not like that would be a first with Ubi guys :cool:.

If they try to force me to install Steam then they can kiss my money goodbye. That simple.

I wonder how things are with the russian market. I have no problem buying from Russia, just need a language selector. I'd rather have some of what i'm paying going to 1C then to Ubi.

Steam was 1C Publishings decision for some simple factual reasons: More profitable for them, a simple user interface for MP gaming, more money for them and less for Ubishaft. If you want to screw 1C for making a smart business choice, and ensuring a huge market of 30 million people, and the most dominant thriving PC community on the planet then you can't see the forest for the trees.

[swiss]

Steam was 1C Publishings decision for some simple factual reasons: More profitable for them, a simple user interface for MP gaming, more money for them and less for Ubishaft. If you want to screw 1C for making a smart business choice, and ensuring a huge market of 30 million people, and the most dominant thriving PC community on the planet then you can't see the forest for the trees.

Defacto it a move to direct distribution.

[Blackdog_kt]

My opposition to it is solely based on the less than stellar experience I had with it in the past.

I'm not saying it's the tool of the devil, or any other conspiracy theory that can be ascribed to it.

If I own a hard copy of the sim, purchased through a traditional retailer, that already has copy protection/DRM/anti-zombieware on it already, why should I or anyone else be forced into having yet another layer of complexity added to what is already a very CPU intensive piece of software?

I'm not saying that Maddox Games/1C/UBI should not market on Steam for those that like that approach.

I just don't understand forcing it on everyone, even if they do not buy their copy from Steam.

What is wrong with that?

Exactly. Options people, options. If the the game shipped with wonder woman view enabled by default you'd all be up in arms because it limits your choices, but apparently when things are getting automated on the set-up side of things even for those that prefer to do things manually, it's the future and we all have to deal with it. :rolleyes:

I don't have anything against Steam in particular, i just don't want to have it forced on me, but all this take it or leave it attitude displayed by some is too reminiscent of the "Great RoF War: fanboys vs haters" of two years ago. Tough luck, because if people dislike it enough they'll keep saying so until they're given a satisfactory alternative. If you want to like the platform then by all means do so, just don't try to force others to like it if they don't. ;)



Barking at Ubisoft (while not unreasonable in 99% of the cases ;) ) is wrong this time. 1C is the big proponent of STEAM and either Oleg or Ilya did drop hints a few weeks back that STEAM would be involved some way or another.

I'm somewhat ambivalent towards STEAM myself. I use it and never had issues, and quite frankly it made things a lot easier for me when I was seriously ill in 2008/2009 and only had a notebook to play with, but I also don't necessarily like having yet another software running in the background. I do not necessarily see advantages for CoD apart from the additional revenue for 1C, since I consider this "going online for playing offline" trend of late a major PITA of every honest customer.

That's my exact opinion as well. In all fairness, Oleg said that it will be possible to use 3rd party server browsers so there might be a solution in the future. Steam is not that hard to bypass, so in a few months maybe we'll be able to disable Steam with a community mod and connect through Hypperlobby or something similar, plus it won't help pirates if we disable Steam because the game already has a second layer of copy protection (Solidshield DRM). So, even with Steam disabled it will only work for legitimate copies of paying customers, so there's nothing wrong with that and won't cost 1c a dime.

After all, for people like me advertising the game involves having a friend come over for a few beers and letting him fly a couple of sorties, not having 20 people in a friend's list watching what i play. Every single time i've used such a feature (from facebook to online matchmakers), my contact list only includes people i know in real life and for this reason i end up not using it at all after a while.
I don't need to message anyone on the internet if everyone i interact with is a person i can reach by phone or in person. They have absolutely nothing to gain in the advertising department from those of us who will not use Steam's community features but prefer external tools and forums, so i won't have any second thoughts about disabling Steam integration first chance i get.

All this is like paying for a game and then cracking it while you have a legal copy to make it easier to to use (yes, it's irony gold), but it's not going to be the first time i've done it to play a game i paid for on my own pace.

[Feuerfalke]

I like STEAM and it's features. It's very comfortable and easy to use.

IMHO it's a great chance for CoD to get more attention by various means:
1. e.g. IL2 is amongst the highest-scoring games in Steam and a real bargain.
2. STEAM supports community-groups, which is:
- an ideal news-portal in a magnitude much larger than Banana+Ubi-Forum
- a great support for Squads and Groups flying (complete with Squad-Banners, MOTD, rankings, organizing 'clanwars', etc.)
- a nice communication platform to attract new customers and share knowledge with them
3. STEAM support Auto-Update. A great help! If you don't think so, make up your mind and count the posts in both forums where new players ask for patches needed and their installation-order.
4. STEAM gives much more money to Oleg than any other distribution method
5. You can install STEAM on any PC you want. Download your games there and play. No more "7 activations for your lifetime are enough".

[addman]

With regards to the "kiddies on steam" comments, WOW! how bigot can you get?LOL! Not only kids play games, gamers grow up and continue to be gamers. I'm 27 and I've been playing video/computer games since I can remember. Sometimes after a long period of playing ETW (for example) it feels so good to shake things up and shoot somebody in the face with an AK-47 in Far Cry 2 or crushing the competition online in Mario Kart Wii. Thank God for variation in games, I'd probably be bored to death if I could only play IL-2. Little OT I know.:)

[Feuerfalke]

With regards to the "kiddies on steam" comments, WOW! how bigot can you get?LOL! Not only kids play games, gamers grow up and continue to be gamers. I'm 27 and I've been playing video/computer games since I can remember. Sometimes after a long period of playing ETW (for example) it feels so good to shake things up and shoot somebody in the face with an AK-47 in Far Cry 2 or crushing the competition online in Mario Kart Wii. Thank God for variation in games, I'd probably be bored to death if I could only play IL-2. Little OT I know.:)

Not OT and hitting the nail on the head.

Besides that, I'm also glad that we have young newcomers to flightsims. Even if they fly like little Rambos (do they even know who that is?), they'll grow up, they support the game and they make flying much more colorful.

[Korn]

Steam was 1C Publishings decision for some simple factual reasons: More profitable for them, a simple user interface for MP gaming, more money for them and less for Ubishaft.
I'm sorry, do you know that for a fact? I can tell you for a fact who's going to make money if Steam is on: Valve. Now why do i need to pay Valve for? I don't even like Steam (i like Valve though lol). Actually Steam and Valve's "bussiness model" (fancy expression for bs) are the reason downloadable games are not cheaper.

If you want to screw 1C for making a smart business choice, and ensuring a huge market of 30 million people, and the most dominant thriving PC community on the planet then you can't see the forest for the trees.
What most dominant community? That's not even a community. Me using Steam to play Il2CoD does not make me pal with the guy playing The Sims or whatever; we're not a community. There's just a bunch of people using a download service. Dominant community? WoW has a dominant community, Starcraft 2 has a dominant community. I don't see Blizzard on Steam... you know why? Because they're smart. Wanna download Starcraft? No problem. Wanna pay Valve to download Starcraft? No you can't :). Why would Blizzard share some of that money with Valve? Why? Bandwidth is cheap this days. The developer should sell it as directly as they could, not go through 2 intermediaries, and then wonder how come they're not making as much money as they should for their hard work.

I got no problems with downloadable games, yes, that is the future. But not by giving half your profits to Valve (or anybody else). You don't need to do that. I bought a few months back ARMA2 Complete, where did i bought it from? Sprocket download baby, because i wanna put money in the developers' pockets, not a bunch of middlemen.

They should have went the Bohemia Interactive way, sell it yourself if possible at all, especially in niche markets. Make no mistake, if a game is good, it will sell, but such types never in huge volume, so more reason for you as a developer not to let other people get money you deserve for your work.

[TheGrunch]

Well honestly I'm glad they have used Steam. At least the game will have a working server browser. I don't see Steam dying any time soon the way the ubi.com servers did for Il-2.

[Kikuchiyo]

1)I'm sorry, do you know that for a fact? I can tell you for a fact who's going to make money if Steam is on: Valve.

2)Now why do i need to pay Valve for? I don't even like Steam (i like Valve though lol). Actually Steam and Valve's "bussiness model" (fancy expression for bs) are the reason downloadable games are not cheaper.


3)What most dominant community? That's not even a community. Me using Steam to play Il2CoD does not make me pal with the guy playing The Sims or whatever; we're not a community. There's just a bunch of people using a download service. Dominant community? WoW has a dominant community, Starcraft 2 has a dominant community. I don't see Blizzard on Steam... you know why? Because they're smart. Wanna download Starcraft? No problem. Wanna pay Valve to download Starcraft? No you can't :). Why would Blizzard share some of that money with Valve? Why? Bandwidth is cheap this days. The developer should sell it as directly as they could, not go through 2 intermediaries, and then wonder how come they're not making as much money as they should for their hard work.

I got no problems with downloadable games, yes, that is the future. But not by giving half your profits to Valve (or anybody else). You don't need to do that. I bought a few months back ARMA2 Complete, where did i bought it from? Sprocket download baby, because i wanna put money in the developers' pockets, not a bunch of middlemen.


1)All the evidence points to it, and that has been pointed out numerous times over the last 2 days by numerous people with numerous links.

2)Frankly because although bandwidth is relatively cheap these days running FTP servers 24/7 365 and maintaining your servers isn't. STEAM (which is a software program made, updated, and run by Valve not a separate business or partner business) Has an approximate 70% market share of DD, and 30 million users. You don't get that kind of business over night, and 1C sees that. Valve had to keep prices up to the same levels as brick and mortar stores because B&M's threatened publisher with "we won't stock your games if you let Valve sale lower than box retail prices."

3) 3.
a social, religious, occupational, or other group sharing common characteristics or interests and perceived or perceiving itself as distinct in some respect from the larger society within which it exists (usually preceded by the ): the business community; the community of scholars.

I wasn't referring to a social community such as this one. As to why Blizzard can do that and say 1C can't really at this juncture is frankly Brand recognition and loyalty. It has nothing to do with Blizzard being smart or dumb they just simply have the weight to do it on their own.

[swiss]

5. You can install STEAM on any PC you want. Download your games there and play. No more "7 activations for your lifetime are enough".

Awesome - Now I just have to move all my peripherals from one to the other PC, lol.

[Flyby]

if it's the only way I can get to fly CoD online, then I'll go with steam. Does this preclude CoD in Hyperlobby? I don't understand.
Flyby out

[TheGrunch]

Maybe. Steam's server browser is better than Hyperlobby, though.

[Thee_oddball]

Maybe. Steam's server browser is better than Hyperlobby, though.

do you know if they are private servers or company run (rentals) servers?

[Kikuchiyo]

do you know if they are private servers or company run (rentals) servers?

You do not have to rent servers from Valve if that is what you are asking. You can use any server service you desire including running a personal server.

Edit: For clarification. VVVV Yes VVV

[Thee_oddball]

You do not have to rent servers from Valve if that is what you are asking. You can use any server service you desire including personal.

what i meant was can anyone put up a server like we do on HL?

[Feuerfalke]

what i meant was can anyone put up a server like we do on HL?

Yes.

[Feuerfalke]

Awesome - Now I just have to move all my peripherals from one to the other PC, lol.

The IP's question was about pro and cons for Steam.
Considering DRMs of other current games, this IS an advantage.

[Heliocon]

I like steam - but I want to add this: FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, ANYTHING BUT YUPLAY OR GAMESPY!!! :-P

[bw_wolverine]

I've almost completely switched from buying my PC games on DVD to buying through Steam (if it can be done so). I think it's a great service.

And, yes, I have had problems on Steam. Buying a big AAA title on release day almost guarantees you're not going to have a fun time because of the millions of people trying to download the title at the same time. I've also had an issue with Steam's configuration files that required me to reinstall the Steam client.

But even with those things under my belt, I still love the service. Let's face it, with current computers, background applications are FAR less of a problem when running games than they used to be. I used to go nuts trying to make sure nothing on my computer was running besides the game and the most BARE parts of Windows. Now, I really don't bother. I just make sure I'm not downloading anything when I game online is all. I don't have a very expensive computer at the moment (probably middle of the line).

In the end, it's all a choice. That also means its a choice for 1C as well. If they feel that Steam is the best way of delivering their title to us (which it sounds like they do) then that's the way they'll deliver it. Their choice. And its my choice to decide that I want the game and that I'm prepared to buy it through Steam (I am).

This is no different from a game company selling the game on a DVD with Starforce protection or whatever anti-piracy stuff of the hour that people hate.

If anything, this whole argument isn't even about the Steam service at all. It's simply a DRM debate. 1C's made their decision about which DRM to use.

EDIT: That all said, I'm hoping very much that the game takes full use of Steam and doesn't require something like the horrible yuplay mentioned in the above post. I still shudder at that thing.

[addman]

At same time as I'm writing this I'm downloading Mafia 2 from Steam, got it for 10€ on this weeks "midweek madness". +1 for Steam, again.:) Will help me pass some time until CoD is released.

[TheGrunch]

what i meant was can anyone put up a server like we do on HL?
This essentially depends on whether Maddox Games release dedicated server software, and all indications point toward yes. :) Not necessarily straight away, though...anyone know if the dedicated server software will be available at release?

[JG53Frankyboy]

last infos say yes, deticated server software is available with release - if on the DVD or as an extra download, not sure.

[TheGrunch]

last infos say yes, deticated server software is available with release - if on the DVD or as an extra download, not sure.
Awesome. :)

[NEWGUY]

I purchased many pc games from STEAM; including IL2. I have a generally favorable view of STEAM.

[KG26_Alpha]

what i meant was can anyone put up a server like we do on HL?

Yes.


Who told you this ?

[TheEditor]

Does this poll mean that we can put this whole steam issue to bed?

LOL

[David603]

89% are either happy with CoD using Steam or are prepared to use it, so I would say so.

Plus I'm sure a number of the remaining 11% are only saying that because they are trying to pressure 1C into removing Steam, and will get the game anyway.

[Extreme_One]

I find it hilarious that the demographic surrounding this game are so anti-Steam.

I have a huge collection of games bought through Steam.

It is particularly funny to see the IL2 community up-in-arms over Steam's inclusion because recently there was a huge noise when Need For Speed: Hot Pursuit (2010) was released and there was an announcement saying that the game wouldn't be coming to Steam. You should have seen the uproar!
Anyway that game is now also available on Steam.

Anyway I concede everyone has the right to choose not to use certain software but with Steam, based on roughly 7 years of experience with it, I can't think of a reasonable reason not to.

So far, none of the reasons given as opposition for using it have had any merit whatsoever.

[Biggs]

So far, none of the reasons given as opposition for using it (Steam) have had any merit whatsoever.

that pretty much seems to be the 'bottom line' now isn't it?

[David603]

I find it hilarious that the demographic surrounding this game are so anti-Steam.
Its the usual situation where people who have a complaint talk a lot more than those who don't.

The vast majority of users seem quite happy with Steam, or at least OK with it, based on the poll.

[Les]

what i meant was can anyone put up a server like we do on HL?

Leans forward out of the shadows, casts a cynical, world-weary and somewhat crazed look at the questioner, thinking, assessing, then looks left and right to see who else is around and relaxes a little, what the hell...

"This is the last part of the puzzle and still isn't known. To do so will require by-passing the game's built-in server-browsing features, which will be set up to go through Steam.

In the past, with IL-2/Ubi's built-in multiplayer system, that wasn't a problem, or you could say, a blind eye was turned towards it and neither the developers or publishers seemed to mind. But to be honest I wouldn't expect that to be the case this time.

And from here we start to get into potentially murky territory, whereby there may in fact be a new Hyperlobby-type arrangement and online scene, that we'll never be able to talk about here.

Sorry for the melodrama, but having been left in the dark to speculate like this, and looking at all potential possibilities, I can't help but wonder whether certain profit-motivated decisions have really been fully thought through. A dedicated community can be cajoled into bringing you some really nice bones, but it can also turn around and ravage your half-arsed dreams and schemes if you're not careful.

Will have to wait and see.

I'd rather ask, will there be a need for a service like Hyperlobby anymore? And I'd like to automatically and without hesitation say, no, there'll be no need or want for a Hyperlobby type service anymore, it won't be necessary, and it won't be necessary for the developers to code that option in or leave that loop-hole open. But..."

Looks around again, gives a slight shrug of the shoulders and a parting, who-knows kind of look, before retreating back into the shadows, "...will have to wait and see."

Questioner just stands there, looking into the darkness, blinking, wtf was that all about? I just wanna fly online.

[The Kraken]

This is the last part of the puzzle and still isn't known. To do so will require by-passing the game's built-in server-browsing features, which will be set up to go through Steam.

In the past, with IL-2's/Ubi's built-in multiplayer system, that wasn't a problem, or you could say, a blind eye was turned towards it and neither the developers or publishers seemed to mind. But to be honest I wouldn't expect that to be the case this time.

I will soon tell it. We integrating interface now. But its not a time to anounce. We are doing by reqest of publisher.
Anyway there will be still the possibility to integrate to another systems by creative users and third party.

See here (http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=190275&postcount=317) - may no longer apply, but at least back in October Oleg clearly did not plan to limit multiplayer to the Steam lobby.

[Les]

See here (http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=190275&postcount=317) - may no longer apply, but at least back in October Oleg clearly did not plan to limit multiplayer to the Steam lobby.

Thanks for that, I remember reading that now that I see it again. Interesting in retrospect to see that he was referring to Steam.

If they have managed to leave that "...possibility to integrate to another systems by creative users and third party..." then the Steam naysayers have even less to worry about. Yeah, the crap will still be on your system somewhere, but you won't have to have anything much at all to do with it in order to play on-line or off.

In which case, here - http://store.steampowered.com/about/ here's the link again. Install the Steam client now before you even get the game and report back to us on how resource-hungry and intrusive it is. I dare ya:grin:

Edit- Sorry for the tone of my recent posts, if anyone knows what I mean, I think I've been spending too much time reading up on these forums lately. Should take a break.

[Extreme_One]

I have ran several servers for several different games that make use of Steam.

The Steam server browser can see the server and report on it's current connected clients and will allow for you to connect to the server using the Steam system but none of this has ever precluded the ability to see the server and connect to it using a 3rd party application; Xfire for example.

I can find no previous examples where Steam integration has meant that there isn't another way to connect and have no reason to believe ClOD will be any different.

If there are any potential ClOD customers out there that are scared of using Steam and somehow feel it will stop them enjoying the game there are literally hundreds of thousands of Steam users that can testify that the system works.
I'd be willing to bet there are more than a few of us here that would be willing to help out if anybody has any difficulty.
The beauty of PC gaming is that there is always a solution to every problem.

[GnigruH]

Looks like few ppl just woke up, after 10 years of playing sturmovik exclusively, only to realize that the gaming world around them has changed...

[Codex]

The beauty of PC gaming is that there is always a solution to every problem.

Oh I am sticking that one on the motivational board :cool:

[FLGibsonJr]

I have had Steam for a few years and do not particularly like it. I basically have it because other games I have purchased have forced me to use it. I especially do not like the MP matching in games like Empire Total War and Napoleon Total War.

My real fear though is for the future. Steam has a virtual monopoly over PC gaming, in that they control about 70% of all PC game downloads. What they do with their monopoly is the big question, and if history tells us anything, big monopolies in the long run are not good for consumers or small businesses and developers. In fact Steam is currently pursuing a security feature that links your account and games to your current processor, how that will effect you when changing PC's is yet to be determined. The problem is that your gaming is being controlled by a monopoly and in a sense it is the "consolizing" of PC gaming.

I know there are a lot of developers that are concerned about the Steam/Valve monopoly and you can count me among them.

For now my purchase of CoD has been put on hold until I find out more about the MP matching and the feedback from those who try it here. I know by reading the posts here that there are those who fanatically love Steam (I hope you love your loved ones as intensely), but my guess is that someday that love may not be requited.

Regards,

[Kikuchiyo]

I have had Steam for a few years and do not particularly like it. I basically have it because other games I have purchased have forced me to use it. I especially do not like the MP matching in games like Empire Total War and Napoleon Total War.

My real fear though is for the future. Steam has a virtual monopoly over PC gaming, in that they control about 70% of all PC game downloads. What they do with their monopoly is the big question, and if history tells us anything, big monopolies in the long run are not good for consumers or small businesses and developers. In fact Steam is currently pursuing a security feature that links your account and games to your current processor, how that will effect you when changing PC's is yet to be determined. The problem is that your gaming is being controlled by a monopoly and in a sense it is the "consolizing" of PC gaming.

I know there are a lot of developers that are concerned about the Steam/Valve monopoly and you can count me among them.

For now my purchase of CoD has been put on hold until I find out more about the MP matching and the feedback from those who try it here. I know by reading the posts here that there are those who fanatically love Steam (I hope you love your loved ones as intensely), but my guess is that someday that love may not be requited.

Regards,

Steam shield is not a hard lock to a cpu it's a choice. (http://store.steampowered.com/news/5088/) Can we please please please stop the disingenuous "facts?"

It's not developer's against Steam it's retailers that forsook PC gaming in the first place. ("http://hothardware.com/News/Gaming-Retailers-Boiling-over-Steams-Expansion/)

The last bit is a choice, and a reasonable one. I love my family vastly more than I love any business. I however loathe disingenuous, misinformed, or dishonest statements. That is the main reason I have been so fervent in my defense of Valve these past couple of days.

[Thee_oddball]

if you buy a game from steam(like dragon age 2) and find out you dont like it can you sell it to some one?

[Kikuchiyo]

if you buy a game from steam(like dragon age 2) and find out you dont like it can you sell it to some one?

No, but you can request a refund. I cannot guarantee that said request will be accepted.

[FLGibsonJr]

It's not developer's against Steam it's retailers that forsook PC gaming in the first place...

...The last bit is a choice, and a reasonable one. I love my family vastly more than I love any business. I however loathe disingenuous, misinformed, or dishonest statements. That is the main reason I have been so fervent in my defense of Valve these past couple of days.

http://www.1up.com/news/steam-conflict-interest-valve-randy

Please see link that counters your assertions about developers related to Steam/Valve. I could post many more.

Regards,

[Kikuchiyo]

http://www.1up.com/news/steam-conflict-interest-valve-randy

Please see link that counters your assertions about developers related to Steam/Valve. I could post many more.

Regards,

Here you go. (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/10/12/the-steamy-issue-of-digital-distribution/) On the other hand as consumers we do have a responsibility to keep an eye out. There are two sides to every coin. Valve didn't set out to take a 70% market share of DD they just made it so convenient and user friendly that before anyone else could hop on the bandwagon the train had already left the station. I do believe they need competition, but it will have to be from something that is as overall perceived by the end user to be as useful and fulfilling for gamers that use the service. Valve is not infallible but it is up to the consumers to decide when enough is enough and not Valve's competitor's that thus far have not done it as well (as evidenced by it's user base.)

[Robert]

No offence to anyone but I would have thought that last line in the text spells it out pretty clear: "So you will need a Steam account to play the game."

Is that for the DOWNLOADED version or a hard disc copy. I DON'T play on line. It's not something I enjoy. My interweb connection is okay..... but I certainly won't download a 10GB file. I just wanna pop the disc in and play OFFLINE. What benefit does STEAM have for me?

My biggest concern that I need to verify is that I will be able to burn DVDs. Almost every UBI game I've bought has caused issues with my DVD burning. I use my PC for work and pleasure. Obviously, work takes precedence over pleasure. I had to download the "IL2 no disc EXE." to play IL2. The other games I shelved.

I know that wasn't STEAM, but it is a concern for me. Does STEAM just verify ownership of the disc, or does it examine my PC for ISO/image file burning software? I can't afford two PCs so CoD may have to be a no go.

[Extreme_One]

Steam won't have a bearing on whether or not you can burn the DVD.

Just like any other game out there nowadays it will depend on the DRM system included on the DISC.

What type of DRM is being used in IL-2 Stumovik: COD?
...uses a new driverless activation solution to manage activations developed by Solidshield with whom T@GES is partnering.


http://www.solidshield.com/en/Products

http://www.tagesprotection.com/main.htm

TAGES™ is a new breed of CD/DVD-ROM copy protection which overcomes the inadequacies of the commonly marketed solutions. With TAGES™, the software community takes a great leap forward against piracy by offering several technical breakthroughs. Our main technical asset is our specific mastering process which builds up a programmable "secure area" on the disc. The secured area is used to protect useful application data sets or encryption keys.


TAGES™ secure area concept permits the protection of independent application data sets of the code. By doing so, TAGES™ makes the protection of the executable component or of interactive content straightforward. For developers, the concept is extremely powerful and easy to put in practice: secure specific data that cannot be reproduced on a recordable media.

[leggit]

This is kind of a biased survey.

The sort of person that is online and posting on forums is most likely already using Steam. (Most of the real life people I know that play or have played IL2_1946 bought it in a store and have never played it online ever, those people obviously never come to this forum)

That is going to bias the results a bit.

LMAO.....you guys crack me up... I guess if the result showed people hated steam it would have been a accurate indication of the player base.

[Erkki]

LMAO.....you guys crack me up... I guess if the result showed people hated steam it would have been a accurate indication of the player base.

How many examples has Il-2 sold? Have a guess? Granted, some lost souls used Ubi lobby and some even Xfire, but guess how many unique users HL has?

Vast majority plays single player or max single player + occasionally LAN/private server with a few friends.

They dont need Steam's "awesome multiplayer matchmaking and anti cheat VAC, player ranking" etc etc.

[TheGrunch]

So you don't want the game to have a server browser by default/want Oleg and team to waste time programming one when they could just use Steam instead?

[Erkki]

So you don't want the game to have a server browser by default/want Oleg and team to waste time programming one when they could just use Steam instead?

I see no reason to force to use Steam. An option would be nice. Not surprised on Ubisoft not providing an MP lobby, though.

[TheGrunch]

I see no reason to force to use Steam. An option would be nice. Not surprised on Ubisoft not providing an MP lobby, though.
Well hey, remember how well their last attempt went. I'd rather use Steam because I expect it'll be around for a long time. Can you imagine how long Ubi would support such an option? They hit the headlines recently for closing a game's official servers less than a year after release.

[MikkOwl]

Is that for the DOWNLOADED version or a hard disc copy. I DON'T play on line. It's not something I enjoy. My interweb connection is okay..... but I certainly won't download a 10GB file. I just wanna pop the disc in and play OFFLINE. What benefit does STEAM have for me?

My biggest concern that I need to verify is that I will be able to burn DVDs. Almost every UBI game I've bought has caused issues with my DVD burning. I use my PC for work and pleasure. Obviously, work takes precedence over pleasure. I had to download the "IL2 no disc EXE." to play IL2. The other games I shelved.

I know that wasn't STEAM, but it is a concern for me. Does STEAM just verify ownership of the disc, or does it examine my PC for ISO/image file burning software? I can't afford two PCs so CoD may have to be a no go.
It may be possible to install from the DVD (although I can't guarantee it). For sure if it is Steam, you can fetch it from their servers whenever you want.

You can choose to back it up as CD or DVD image files (Steam will create whichever you want for you) and you can burn these ISO or just keep them on another hard drive. You can transfer this to another computer or choose to download the game from the steam servers on any computer.

Benefits of Steam in your case should be:

1. Extremely easily available (from disc, backup discs, backup image files or the Steam servers).
2. There is no install process and no need to use a disc & no-disc cracks.
3. Ability to check that the game is correctly installed & uncorrupted, with any broken files replaced. I.e. no need to uninstall-reinstall.
4. No need to manually download & apply patches (auto patching is an option)
5. If installed through downloading from Steam, it is always the latest patched version.

[AA_Absolute]

And, perhaps anticheat protection?

[leggit]

How many examples has Il-2 sold? Have a guess? Granted, some lost souls used Ubi lobby and some even Xfire, but guess how many unique users HL has?

Vast majority plays single player or max single player + occasionally LAN/private server with a few friends.

They dont need Steam's "awesome multiplayer matchmaking and anti cheat VAC, player ranking" etc etc.

Oleg is protecting nearly 10 years work...i'm 100% behind his decision to use steam...like it or not gaming on the pc has moved on because of piracy.. If you don't like using steam well thats just tough.. the poll would indicate that most people are happy with the idea. stop crying.

[Erkki]

Oleg is protecting nearly 10 years work...i'm 100% behind his decision to use steam...like it or not gaming on the pc has moved on because of piracy.. If you don't like using steam well thats just tough.. the poll would indicate that most people are happy with the idea. stop crying.

Who is crying? Did you read my post?

3rd time on 3 different places I have said that I will not use it if I need to run Steam to start the game, offline or online mode. It always gets "misunderstood". I dont mind validating via Steam or having an option to play multiplayer with it.

[TheGrunch]

Who is crying? Did you read my post?

3rd time on 3 different places I have said that I will not use it if I need to run Steam to start the game, offline or online mode. It always gets "misunderstood". I dont mind validating via Steam or having an option to play multiplayer with it.
Steam runs in the background (I think), but you can simply create a desktop shortcut to the game via Steam to start it, games end up in your Program Files/Valve/Steam/steamapps or something like that, you see.

[Davy TASB]

Hated Steam when it came out but quite like it now.

[leggit]

Who is crying? Did you read my post?

3rd time on 3 different places I have said that I will not use it if I need to run Steam to start the game, offline or online mode. It always gets "misunderstood". I dont mind validating via Steam or having an option to play multiplayer with it.


you've made the same point 3 times but your not crying?...right.

[Blackdog_kt]

Oleg is protecting nearly 10 years work...i'm 100% behind his decision to use steam...like it or not gaming on the pc has moved on because of piracy.. If you don't like using steam well thats just tough.. the poll would indicate that most people are happy with the idea. stop crying.

It's not about piracy, we already have Solidshield DRM for that.
I would guess it's about cheap advertising (which is just fine) if the game was sold on Steam, but it's not.
It's not about multiplayer either, since Oleg Maddox said himself that it will be possible to use 3rd party server browsing tools like hypperlobby.

It's also been mentioned by a developer at some point during the last few months that they were working on integrating the multiplayer features "as per the request of the publisher". They just didn't say which publisher, some say this publisher is Ubi, some say it's 1C but in any case Maddox Games is neither of the two: it's a gaming studio that's working under 1C (a publisher) and publishing under Ubi in the west and 1C in the east.

So, the bottom line is that it's quite clear that Steam is not Oleg's decision but the publishers'.

Oh, and they also had to spent time to code this last minute integration of Steam, so arguments that "they went with Steam to save time on making their own server browser" are somewhat moot, especially when the rest of the netcode was something that the game was already capable of.

I don't have anything against people who like Steam or the platform itself but let's get over ourselves here for a bit, it's a publisher decision that's been forced on Oleg's team.

Best way to do things would be to have a Steam version for those who like it, sold through Steam with no additional DRM. The other versions would have the Solidshield DRM but no Steam integration. Everyone is happy, people are not boycotting the game, more sales, profit.

As it is now, both the pro-Steam and the against-Steam people are getting the short end of the stick: the "steamers" are forced to use a second DRM layer and the "non-steamers" have to also contend with two DRM layers and total lack of options in the whole matter.

[Thee_oddball]

So you don't want the game to have a server browser by default/want Oleg and team to waste time programming one when they could just use Steam instead?
just to play devils advocate i dont think the server browser issue is a valid argument FOR steam, oleg is in the gaming buisness and should know that having an ingame browser is statusquo...htyperlobby is a private one man volunteer effort as far as i know so what stops oleg from doing the same?
I dont remember the last time i got a game that did not have its own server browser..oleg and company have been working on this game for years and to not put in a server browser is illogical.
You mentioned UBI puling the plug on server's for some game that was only a year old...im sure the game developer is real happy about that... .that is one of the problems with relying on a third party...you have no control over them.
So do i think this will happen with steam? i very much doubt it but my point is still valid (the more moving parts the more togo wrong) If HL can be done on a free and volunteer basis there is no reason oleg can not do the same and this apply's to updates aswell

[TheGrunch]

If HL can be done on a free and volunteer basis there is no reason oleg can not do the same and this apply's to updates aswell
This is true, but from a developer's point of view, why bother? If you know Steam can do it, and better than you can, what need is there to waste time on it? I bet using Steam has been the plan all along.
Blackdog, I would ask what evidence you have that the decision to use Steam is a *recent* one? Just because we didn't know about it until recently, and indeed just because the work wasn't done until recently doesn't mean the decision wasn't made. After all, Steam integration is not likely to be particularly difficult, Hyperlobby acted as a server browser without any intervention code-wise from Maddox Games at all in the case of Il-2.

[ElAurens]

I have been doing homework on Steam since this mess started.

Been asking folks I know personally that are involved in I.T. gaming, computer repair, and related businesses.

It's the only way to find clear, calm, and reasoned answers to my questions and concerns, as certainly none of the fan boys on either side that are constantly posting on the three main forums are capable of adult discussion.

So far I am pretty much hearing the same thing from all of them.

1. Never install Steam on a computer that is used for financial information work/storage that is not encrypted. QuickBooks came up a lot in this area.

2. Do not install Steam on any computer that you use to store any important personal information of any kind. Financial records, business transaction records, credit card transaction records, etc... or anything that is of deep personal value to you.

3. As a gaming resource it isn't a bad thing in and of itself. But, like any open port to the greater net, it can be used in a nefarious manner.

4. It is not a huge resouce hog, but it does "phone home" and there is additional network traffic because of it.

5. Never make direct credit card purchases for games on Steam. Buy Steam points at a brick and mortar store and use those online.

6. Be careful and it is not going to bite you.


OK.

That's where I'm at for now.

[TheGrunch]

6. Be careful and it is not going to bite you.

That is pretty much it in a nutshell, but then you could say that about any piece of software that accesses the internet. :) If you login once, then enable offline mode on a permanent basis and block it in your firewall - if you're that kind of paranoid do remember to do that, I've heard that it can phone home even when it's technically in offline mode if there's still an internet connection, indeed I saw it do so at least in older versions - it cannot possibly compromise your personal information or computer security after that.

[Feuerfalke]

Been asking folks I know personally that are involved in I.T. gaming, computer repair, and related businesses.

That's the cross-section of our forum :grin:

1. Never install Steam on a computer that is used for financial information work/storage that is not encrypted. QuickBooks came up a lot in this area.

2. Do not install Steam on any computer that you use to store any important personal information of any kind. Financial records, business transaction records, credit card transaction records, etc... or anything that is of deep personal value to you.


You should never put any of these things on a PC connected to the internet. At least not without a decent firewall.

3. As a gaming resource it isn't a bad thing in and of itself. But, like any open port to the greater net, it can be used in a nefarious manner.

Any open port can. Closed ports as well, if they are not protected.

It is not a huge resouce hog, but it does "phone home" and there is additional network traffic because of it.

From a reasonable friend in the IT-branche I'd expected a number instead of an opinion. Let me give you one: In "standby" that 4 Bit/s down, intermittently > 1 Bit/s up. Assuming you a running a 16k-Modem via phone-line, that's what? >0,1% of your bandwidth?

5. Never make direct credit card purchases for games on Steam. Buy Steam points at a brick and mortar store and use those online.


Why not? Just keep changing your password and don't fall for phishing-mails. Problem solved. Or you want 100% safety? Good luck.

6. Be careful and it is not going to bite you.

Yeah. The same is true for my toaster.

[JG27+Freid]

Ubi tried their own DRM and STEAM didn't like it so they refused to sell UBISOFT games which pretty much screwed them so they had to let STEAM sell them and run them. Evidently STEAM is the microsoft/google of PC gaming sales. They use every tactic to gain and keep a stranglehold on the market. They like google are also known to be a data mining company extroidinaire.

I am not interested in a third party dictateing to control what i choose to have installed on my PC and how i choose to use a product I paid for. I am not new to this.

I still have my commodore 64. My first flight simulator was RedBaron and it was 8 floppy disc's. Thats right i am not a kid. I have been flying flight simulators for nearly 20 years. I find this digital download and 3rd party software with a permanent internet connection an infrignment on my freedoms and rights.

This will eliminate and water down the present IL2 community and replace it with an Arcade group dominated and controlled by a corporation only interested in profit and control.

Bye Oleg and enjoy kids !

[TheGrunch]

This will eliminate and water down the present IL2 community and replace it with an Arcade group dominated and controlled by a corporation only interested in profit and control.
By God, you're right! I also heard that you shouldn't trust foreigners. Thanks for the good info!

[Luftrofl]

Ubi tried their own DRM and STEAM didn't like it so they refused to sell UBISOFT games which pretty much screwed them so they had to let STEAM sell them and run them. Evidently STEAM is the microsoft/google of PC gaming sales. They use every tactic to gain and keep a stranglehold on the market. They like google are also known to be a data mining company extroidinaire.

I am not interested in a third party dictateing to control what i choose to have installed on my PC and how i choose to use a product I paid for. I am not new to this.

I still have my commodore 64. My first flight simulator was RedBaron and it was 8 floppy disc's. Thats right i am not a kid. I have been flying flight simulators for nearly 20 years. I find this digital download and 3rd party software with a permanent internet connection an infrignment on my freedoms and rights.

This will eliminate and water down the present IL2 community and replace it with an Arcade group dominated and controlled by a corporation only interested in profit and control.

Bye Oleg and enjoy kids !

Do a little more research because you obviously have no clue what went down between Ubi and Steam regarding the DRM.

[Extreme_One]

I have been doing homework on Steam since this mess started.

Been asking folks I know personally that are involved in I.T. gaming, computer repair, and related businesses.

It's the only way to find clear, calm, and reasoned answers to my questions and concerns, as certainly none of the fan boys on either side that are constantly posting on the three main forums are capable of adult discussion.

So far I am pretty much hearing the same thing from all of them.

1. Never install Steam on a computer that is used for financial information work/storage that is not encrypted. QuickBooks came up a lot in this area.

2. Do not install Steam on any computer that you use to store any important personal information of any kind. Financial records, business transaction records, credit card transaction records, etc... or anything that is of deep personal value to you.

3. As a gaming resource it isn't a bad thing in and of itself. But, like any open port to the greater net, it can be used in a nefarious manner.

4. It is not a huge resouce hog, but it does "phone home" and there is additional network traffic because of it.

5. Never make direct credit card purchases for games on Steam. Buy Steam points at a brick and mortar store and use those online.

6. Be careful and it is not going to bite you.


OK.

That's where I'm at for now.

I'm curious about what your sources think will happen if you run Steam and do any of the above?

Do they believe Steam to be able to somehow intercept your personal data?

Steam is run by a multi-million dollar company not some fly-by-night scamming outfit looking to empty your bank account (unless you purchase so many games as to empty your bank account).

Do they believe that buying games directly through Steam is somehow any less secure that buying through any other Web Portal?

I have paid for games directly through Steam with Paypal, Click-And-Buy and credit/debit cards and have never experienced anything untoward.

I'd be more wary of buying from eBay than Steam.

Oh and the bandwidth thing ... it doesn't consume bandwidth when you need it, ie when you're playing a game. It will not update a game when you are currently playing one.
It does consume bandwidth when it updates your games (automatically or when you choose if you disable automatic updates) and when it updates itself (as long as you're not currently in a game)

Look I don't want to start an argument, I have no vested interest in protecting Steam's reputation but I have been using it for several years on two different PCs and no bad has ever come of it.

I just feel it's reasonable to point out that I have experienced no negatives, only positives.

Oh and most of the "computer repair professionals" and corporate IT admins I have ever met know far less about PCs than any PC gamer / hardware enthusiast worth their salt.

[Biggs]

if nothing else this at least shows how many people (registered on this forum) are planning on buying the game...

208 and counting :)

[Les]

For those who were asking or wanted to know, yes you will have to install Steam, and activate via Steam, even a retail, store-bought, DVD copy of IL2:Cliffs Of Dover, as we've been told specifically by an Ubisoft representative you will need a Steam account in order to play, even off-line.

This would have been more clear earlier, if it wasn't for the fact that the game will use SolidShield(Tages) DRM validation as well, which theoretically meant, if you never intended to play online, you could have just unlocked your game by submitting a code through the SolidShield system. That's neither here nor there now though, what's done is done. It's up to the publishers to decide what sort of DRM measures and multi-player features they want to implement, and it's up to the customers to decide now whether they can live with having the Steam client installed on their system.

I went through this decision-making process myself several years ago when I went out of my way to buy the retail disk version of Red Orchestra to avoid having to use Steam, only to find (due to lack of research) that even the retail disk version required activation through Steam. At that point, despite being annoyed at the lack of choices available, I decided to bite the bullet, install Steam and see what happened.

And what happened? Not much, just spent way too many hours playing a @#%^ing excellent game online, until the community faded and I got too pissed off too often by niggling annoyances that are just part and parcel of playing that kind of game online, and uninstalled it.

Steam stayed installed though, as I began taking advantage of it's special offers on other games that it's sales made affordable to buy, download, play through and discard (or keep installed as simple time-wasters). That was about five years ago now.

I'm not the kind of person who just installs programs willy-nilly, I like to keep a fairly lean-running machine, and there is other stuff I could have installed that I've chosen not to because I haven't been able to keep track of where it is and what it's doing. Steam isn't one of them. For me, it's pro's have outweighed it con's.

Something else I've come to realize is, if I'd never played the original IL-2 series, manually downloading and installing and patching it and flying online through Hyperlobby etc. If I'd never done all that, and saw it for anew today, and it was a Steam download only title, I wouldn't hesitate to buy it.

But, conversely, at least part of my resentment over the involvement of Steam in the new series is a nostalgia thing for the fun I've had over the years running the original IL-2 series the old-fashioned way. It's something I've grown attached to, there's history there, personal and shared, and if something's going to mess with the continuation of that, it had better be bringing with it some real benefits, or be keeping itself the hell out of the way as much as possible.

Also, Steam, with it's convenience and mass-appeal, is at the same time, for me, associated with cheapness and disposability and crass commerciality. And these aren't characteristics I readily associate with something like the IL-2 series. Yes, IL-2 is just a 'product', but it's also, essentially, a labour of love and something that I believe deserves, and has been given, more respect and dedicated attention than what it's going to get when it's inexorably linked up with Steam.

It may not mean much to anyone else, but as I look at it, there is also an aspect to all of this that is like the ending of an era, which is making moving on into different areas harder than it might otherwise be. The original Il-2 series managed to stand, and continues to stand, on it's own, even within the flight-sim genre, and it deserves to.

But the new series that's just beginning, is being born into a different world. And not an easier world for it's kind of thing. And quite frankly, f*#% anyone who abandons it now. It's like the child of the father you fought side by side with for years, through all those battles, all those victories and losses, look after it and give it a chance to grow into something that can make it's own place in a world more hostile towards and dismissive of it's kind's existence than ever before.

In this context, Steam is nothing. At worst, a mere hindrance , an extra button to push or background process running, nothing compared to what getting over it can facilitate and allow to keep growing.

Those of you who are abandoning the new IL-2 series are effectively abandoning the future of combat-flight-simming and leaving it to the wolves. It will only be a self-fulfilling prophesy if all that you feared about it's being compromised, or it's outright demise, comes true.

There's also absolutely no chance for the development of any work-arounds to the 'issues' some people are currently having if so many people bugger off now it has a negative impact on what Oleg and company can afford to do in the future.

Anyway, I've spent so long writing all this I've had time to remember how unimportant the whole subject is in the wider scheme of things, and what a strange form of entertainment this is.

Que sera sera.

[JG27+Freid]

By God, you're right! I also heard that you shouldn't trust foreigners. Thanks for the good info!

How mature of you !

[JG27+Freid]

Do a little more research because you obviously have no clue what went down between Ubi and Steam regarding the DRM.

Really, I am glad a young fellow like you is so worldly, i would have never thought about doing that son ! No need to disrespect people with such condesending comments.

[TheGrunch]

How mature of you !
Well, I tend to reply to statements in kind. If you start insulting and generalising about large groups of people then I'm not interested in discussing anything with you reasonably, you're clearly just an idiot. To call the Steam user base as a whole arcade users and to use some kind of "watering down the pure blood" analogy is just childish in this day and age.

[Panp]

This sounds a lot like the arguments I have with my kids about trying new foods.

Kid:"It looks yucky I want chicken nuggets"
Me:"Have you tried it?"
Kid:"NO, cuz I won't like it"
Me:"How can you know you won't like it if you don't try it. Now take a bight."
Kid:*nibbles at food, five minutes later the plate is cleared.
Me:"How was it?"
Kid:"Very yummy!"

He he thats funny

Now go show your kid how that chicken nugget was made and lets see if she will eat it again.
:rolleyes:
It's funny how things that are kept out of sight change it's appeal.

like Steam at the last minute before release

I want the ability to go to a server that is of my choosing.
If you notice the key words here My Choice
Not Steams choice

If you like steam GREAT FOR YOU! thats your choice and Im ok with that, but I want the option to choose where and how and with whom along with When I play online and not be dependent on third party software that was forced on me to do so!!!

Give us the option to use the software in a online manner that we choose.

I have payed full price on every IL2 series CD that Oleg and 1C have put out during the last 9 / 10 years
I have bought and given away at least 10 cds of the IL 2 series to friends and family over the years.
Sad to say that I will not do this for COD, due to the forced use of steam on the online community.:(

[Kikuchiyo]

Really, I am glad a young fellow like you is so worldly, i would have never thought about doing that son ! No need to disrespect people with such condesending comments.

He's right you know. You're information or your interpretation of what went down there was flawed.

Valve listens to the gamer community, and pays attention to the market. Ubisoft created a draconian always connected DRM that all your game data and saves were attached to. Gamers cried foul and rightfully so. Valve being a developer of games by gamers for gamers saw that this would be bad for everyone, and could potentially ruin PC gaming as a platform, AND alienate PC gamers as a whole. They made a decision to boycott Ubisoft on their platform not for personal gain, but because they felt what Ubisoft was doing was unethical.

In the light of lost profits, being boycotted from the largest market for PC gaming, and the public outcry Ubisoft made the decision to scrap the draconian DRM. It wasn't as you suggested a bullying tactic by Valve, but a protest against Ubisoft's attempt to bully PC gamers. The amount of chaos that their always connected DRM caused in it's short existence was astounding though. People lost the ability to play their game(s) because the lost connection mid-game, all the saves related to it, and in some cases even the right to play the game(s) ever again. Oh and don't forget it did actually spy and track the connections to the internet that the gamer's PC had. If you had a torrent going (even one that like YuPlay that can in no way be attached to piracy) they would revoke your license to play the game, and wouldn't return it even if you provided hard evidence that it was a legal legitimate torrent.

Personally I was glad that a relatively small business stood up to a much larger business and won. It was a David and Goliath moment, and David triumphed.

[Kikuchiyo]

I want the ability to go to a server that is of my choosing.
If you notice the key words here My Choice
Not Steams choice

:(

Uh the Steam platform doesn't tell you what server you have to use. It simply shows what servers are up and running the game you want to play. It will also tell you who is playing on them. If you don't like any of the available servers you can make your own, and through Steam invite who you want to be there, and even lock out people you don't want to be there.

I think you missed the whole point of what I was saying with that me vs kids exchange anyway.

[Luftrofl]

Really, I am glad a young fellow like you is so worldly, i would have never thought about doing that son ! No need to disrespect people with such condesending comments.

People who purposefully distort the facts to to make it fit their argument deserve no respect. You made it sound like Steam was the big bad guy bullying Ubisoft around at the expense of PC gamers, which was not the case. Go lie elsewhere.

[Yammo]

Just had to throw a log onto this fire. ;)

First off, I really love steam...
The DRM works great and their store is awesome.
...that said, there are some real skeletons in the Steam-closet.


First and foremost...
...your steam-account is a free subscription and you do not "buy" the games
on steam, but rent them for a one-time fee. This means that you are
not a customer, but a subscriber which greatly affects your position versus
Steam should you ever run into problems with them. A customer has very
strong rights, but a subscriber does not.

For example, as a subscriber, you have no "rights of first-sale", which means
you can not sell or give your game away. (Actually even throwing away games
that you loathe requires you to contact support.)

If at any time, your subscription should be terminated, you will lose access
to all your steam games and will have little or no real possibility of getting
them back.

For the "privilege" of subscribing to a game, you actually pay a higher price
than for the physical product. Sometimes up towards 50% more...


So, do I use Steam?
Heck, yes... Like I said: - I love Steam!
But I only purchase "dime-a-dozen" games there, games such as TeamFortress2,
Torchlight and Bad Company 2. I the mere thought of purchasing IL2 off steam
wouldn't even begin to speculate about the merest possibility of crossing my mind.


(Note: If it absolutely had to come down to choosing between Steam and
a UBI-Soft DRM, well... I'd choose Steam every time. But only because the
UBI-Soft DRM is something of the most customer-hostile and computer-
invasive root-kit spy-ware created to date.)

[Kikuchiyo]

First and foremost...
...your steam-account is a free subscription and you do not "buy" the games
on steam, but rent them for a one-time fee. This means that you are
not a customer, but a subscriber which greatly affects your position versus
Steam should you ever run into problems with them. A customer has very
strong rights, but a subscriber does not.

For example, as a subscriber, you have no "rights of first-sale", which means
you can not sell or give your game away. (Actually even throwing away games
that you loathe requires you to contact support.)

If at any time, your subscription should be terminated, you will lose access
to all your steam games and will have little or no real possibility of getting
them back.

For the "privilege" of subscribing to a game, you actually pay a higher price
than for the physical product. Sometimes up towards 50% more...


Standard EULA verbage for box copies too. All EULAs regardless of physical copy or digital say exactly that same thing. (I understand you like Steam etc, but I am just trying to set records straight).

On the "first-sale-rights" once again read the EULA of any game.

That bit about your account being revoked sucks, but I know of no case where that has happened, and as such I imagine that someone doing that would have to have done some serious shenanigans to get that.

The "higher price" for a digital copy is because Retailer's threatened publisher's with not carrying their products if they allowed any digital distributor to offer the same games at a lower everyday price than the retail version. On the flipside this means more money goes to the people that actual make the games rather than retailers.

I am not trying to be inflammatory, smug, or defensive I am just trying to lay out factual information for those that may not know what Steam is or how EULAs work in general.

I am not some kid either I am a father of 3 and have been playing video games since before I can remember(sometime early '80s is the best I can do). I don't believe that Valve or any company is without fault anymore than I think any person is without fault. I however like to have at hand factual information, and I to pass that information on to those that do not have it. My taste in video games span nearly all genres (excepting platformers I really hate those). I just want these things to be taken into consideration before people call me a defender, or a kiddie, or a smug bastard or whatever they want to throw out there. Name calling achieves nothing.

[=XIII=Shea]

I have alot of games on steam and have had no problems what so ever:)

[Blackdog_kt]

This is true, but from a developer's point of view, why bother? If you know Steam can do it, and better than you can, what need is there to waste time on it? I bet using Steam has been the plan all along.
Blackdog, I would ask what evidence you have that the decision to use Steam is a *recent* one? Just because we didn't know about it until recently, and indeed just because the work wasn't done until recently doesn't mean the decision wasn't made. After all, Steam integration is not likely to be particularly difficult, Hyperlobby acted as a server browser without any intervention code-wise from Maddox Games at all in the case of Il-2.

Maybe it wasn't a recent decision, true. The implementation was a recent thing, according to a post in an interview or update thread within the last couple of months (conservative estimate to be on the safe side as i'm a bit bored to go digging for the exact quote, it might be as small a time frame as the past 2-3 weeks).
It's also been stated through similar avenues of communication with the community that it was a publisher decision. I still remember that quote well enough even if not 100% verbatim, it clearly said something to the effect of "at the request of the publisher" if not using the exact same words. Both of these snippets of info where from official sources by the way, straight from the horse's mouth so to speak.

What i'm pointing at is that the integration with Steam was an external, forced decision and as such, being against it doesn't necessarily paint one as a person who's disrespectful of Oleg's work. I'm still getting a collector's edition but i still don't have to like this last minute inclusion in the package.

According to information posted by the developers themselves CoD already has DRM and multiplayer capability of its own, they have also said that integrating it was not their own choice, ergo its inclusion in the package is more of an order from above and far from a necessity.

All of this has no bearing whatsoever on whether Steam is a good or bad platform and that's why i keep telling people that i don't hate Steam neither do i want to bash it: i just don't care enough about it to go to all the trouble of praising or discrediting it and i don't want to have to care ever.
So, let's get that out of the way right from the start, i don't have any particular interest to pass judgment on Steam, either positive or negative and i don't care enough to form an opinion. It's one of those things that i haven't had to think about until now and i would prefer it to stay this way.

What the aforementioned information has a bearing on however, is that it shows as clear as day that a purely optional feature is being served as a mandatory one under the disguise of it being necessary, while its necessity has already been refuted by the developers.

So, it is at this juncture that external factors are forcing me to form an opinion on steam, up to this point in time i didn't care and wouldn't ever. Let's just say then that when the introduction is a forced one, it doesn't leave the best of impressions regardless of the product's actual quality and leave it at that.

Up this point everything is factual and even documented by credible sources on this very forum, so please excuse me for adding a bit of hypothesis in my final point: 1C=/=maddox games, because 1C is a publisher just like Ubi is.

If true, this changes everything about the argument of who gets the money and how much. If Ubi and 1C are still the publishers they are still getting a cut on top of what steam will take.

A lot of people here seem to think that maddox games=1C, which i seriously doubt is true. The most possible scenario is that maddox games is one among the many game development studios in Russia and 1C is just their local publisher, just like Ubi is for the western market.

So, while a Steam release might mean more profit for 1C, it doesn't necessarily translate the same for maddox games. It's like saying "selling on Steam makes EA/UBI/other publisher more money".

In fact, the more i think of it, the more it seems like one more group of people skimming fat off of Oleg's milk.
If steam gets a 30% on all kinds of copies (boxed, collectors, download) and UBI (western version) or 1C (Russian version) get another 30% or so, it's clearly obvious that Oleg is better off separating his publishers:
1) Dedicated Steam version, 30% goes to Steam and 70% goes to maddox games. Only Steam DRM.
2) Non-steam version with Solidshield DRM, once again Ubi/1C get 30% and maddox games gets 70%.

Much better than what seems to be the current scenario, whereby the combined cut of Steam and Ubi/1C could be upwards of 50% on every single copy, regardless of version.

Sadly, we don't have more information about this so i'm not going to go ahead and claim it's true. However, it's a reasonable doubt and something i'd really like to know more about.

Just had to throw a log onto this fire. ;)

First off, I really love steam...
The DRM works great and their store is awesome.
...that said, there are some real skeletons in the Steam-closet.


First and foremost...
...your steam-account is a free subscription and you do not "buy" the games
on steam, but rent them for a one-time fee. This means that you are
not a customer, but a subscriber which greatly affects your position versus
Steam should you ever run into problems with them. A customer has very
strong rights, but a subscriber does not.

For example, as a subscriber, you have no "rights of first-sale", which means
you can not sell or give your game away. (Actually even throwing away games
that you loathe requires you to contact support.)

If at any time, your subscription should be terminated, you will lose access
to all your steam games and will have little or no real possibility of getting
them back.

For the "privilege" of subscribing to a game, you actually pay a higher price
than for the physical product. Sometimes up towards 50% more...


So, do I use Steam?
Heck, yes... Like I said: - I love Steam!
But I only purchase "dime-a-dozen" games there, games such as TeamFortress2,
Torchlight and Bad Company 2. I the mere thought of purchasing IL2 off steam
wouldn't even begin to speculate about the merest possibility of crossing my mind.


(Note: If it absolutely had to come down to choosing between Steam and
a UBI-Soft DRM, well... I'd choose Steam every time. But only because the
UBI-Soft DRM is something of the most customer-hostile and computer-
invasive root-kit spy-ware created to date.)

That's a very well balanced post. Steam is definitely better than Ubi's abomination of a DRM (a Ubimination maybe? :-P ).

On the other hand, i agree about everything you said about the type of games i would buy from such a service. The games that really have the potential to grow on me, i prefer them to be independent from outside factors as much as possible.

I wouldn't mind permanently losing access to a $10 weekend bargain shooter (i would just a little bit, but only out of customer service ethics/principles), but if i was suddenly told that i can no more fly my CoD collector's edition without having done something wrong myself, let's just say i'd be mighty p*ssed off, possibly enough to give the responsible parties bad publicity whenever the chance came up.

The main problem is that a more or less worthless EULA when viewed under the scope of consumer laws is suddenly made enforceable by the publisher via a certain distribution tool: if i buy a boxed edition game and bypass the copy protection so that i don't have to run it with the disc in the drive all the time, nobody can do anything about it because it's a consumer right to have one backup copy of each purchased game. If however i get banned from an online all-in-one vendor/verification/game management platform for whatever reason, even if i'm well within the boundaries of the law regardless of what the EULA says, i lose access to all my games there and by consequence the cash i paid for it. Should i take the case to court i would probably win, but the guys running the distribution platform just know that i can't afford the legal expenses to even start on such a case, so they could simply take my money and leave even if i'm well within the rights consumer law gives me.

In short, i'm generally averse to such platforms because they have the potential to interfere with my gaming as well as force me to accept terms of use that range from controversial to downright illegal.

I'm not saying Steam is out to screw me over, i'm just saying that it could do so very easily if it ever wanted to and giving people i don't know and can't retaliate against that much control on me is something i detest as a matter of principle. Like i've said before, i'm still getting a collector's edition for my own enjoyment and to support the work of team Maddox, but i'd be lying if i said i won't try to disable this feature first chance i get.

[ElAurens]

Well said.

[Thee_oddball]

Well said.

ditto

[Robert]

It may be possible to install from the DVD (although I can't guarantee it). For sure if it is Steam, you can fetch it from their servers whenever you want.

You can choose to back it up as CD or DVD image files (Steam will create whichever you want for you) and you can burn these ISO or just keep them on another hard drive. You can transfer this to another computer or choose to download the game from the steam servers on any computer.

Benefits of Steam in your case should be:

1. Extremely easily available (from disc, backup discs, backup image files or the Steam servers).
2. There is no install process and no need to use a disc & no-disc cracks.
3. Ability to check that the game is correctly installed & uncorrupted, with any broken files replaced. I.e. no need to uninstall-reinstall.
4. No need to manually download & apply patches (auto patching is an option)
5. If installed through downloading from Steam, it is always the latest patched version.

Thanks MikkOwl. You've allayed my fears regarding Steam and me need to work on my PC. Appreciate the feed back.

[Codex]

I have been doing homework on Steam since this mess started.

Been asking folks I know personally that are involved in I.T. gaming, computer repair, and related businesses.

It's the only way to find clear, calm, and reasoned answers to my questions and concerns, as certainly none of the fan boys on either side that are constantly posting on the three main forums are capable of adult discussion.

So far I am pretty much hearing the same thing from all of them.

1. Never install Steam on a computer that is used for financial information work/storage that is not encrypted. QuickBooks came up a lot in this area.

2. Do not install Steam on any computer that you use to store any important personal information of any kind. Financial records, business transaction records, credit card transaction records, etc... or anything that is of deep personal value to you.

3. As a gaming resource it isn't a bad thing in and of itself. But, like any open port to the greater net, it can be used in a nefarious manner.

4. It is not a huge resouce hog, but it does "phone home" and there is additional network traffic because of it.

5. Never make direct credit card purchases for games on Steam. Buy Steam points at a brick and mortar store and use those online.

6. Be careful and it is not going to bite you.


OK.

That's where I'm at for now.

You got solid advice ElAurens, I love point 6. It's just ironic that the same thing can be said about using Firefox, Google Chrome, IE etc and yet I'd bet my bottom dollar we all use those browsers everyday to surf the net, by goods etc without even thinking about it.

The point is, it's not as scary as everyone makes it out to be. Yes be careful but also don't stop yourself from enjoying CoD. Besides if the unthinkable did happen and your credit card got cleaned out, every Bank that offers it's customer's credit cards must adhere to Credit Consumer Laws, and they're geared heavily in the consumers favour, you will be inconvenienced a bit if it did happen but your guaranteed by law to get your money back.

[Jaguar]

Steam has some advantages and has parts of it that I detest. I truely understand why some will not support it and why others think its fantastic.


I use steam for games like NTW and ETW. I hated the fact when I first began that steam rewrote any changes that were made on my end with the game. Did I want to go online with my newfound changes. No I did not. Any way I put that game on the do not play shelf for a long while. Until i found this

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/index.php

Man did they bring life back into enjoyment of my DVD purchased games. Stop by just to see whats happening. For those who are a little concerned about Steam and the modern abilities of others. I don't even worry about not having a vanila game that I can use online.
I'm more than positive that offliners can find some helpful hints around in this brave new world. Make your own choice and let others do the same. What are you really afraid of when you have to have it your way?

[gonk]

I like steam until patches or mods hit the streets.... then it usually get ugly.

[TheGrunch]

For the most part I agree with you Blackdog, I just think that we're LUCKY that it's Steam and not something more irritating or obtrusive, given that we're dealing with Ubi and 1C, of whom Ubi love DRM and being dicks to their consumers as much as possible if it protects their margins and of whom 1C just love Steam for obvious reasons - they are a small publisher who can't afford gigantic advertising campaigns for their fairly niche titles - CoD probably in the middle of the road or even leaning towards mainstream compared to some of them, and to some extent Steam do this for them in their news section (if Ubi will let them do so straight away) and also it saves developers a bit of time in terms of creating a multiplayer system beyond the actual basic netcode and server system and you get a better deal than with retailers as regards profit.

I don't think that people are getting the way the money issue works here, though, probably because as you say, a lot of people don't seem to understand that 1C is a publisher and Maddox Games is the developer here, they are not the same thing, 1C are co-publishing with Ubi, with Ubi publishing wherever they can be arsed to but supposedly the US, Western Europe and Australia, 1C publishing inside Russia and maybe parts of Eastern Europe and Asia I suspect.
That oft-quoted article about the money division from Steam (quoted as between 60:40 and 70:30) is from the perspective of the PUBLISHER. They still take their cut unless Maddox Games decided to self-publish through Steam only. So it will go 70:30 1C:Steam and then how much Maddox Games gets from that 70% depends on what their contract with 1C is as to the division of profits (if indeed they don't just get a fixed sum on the completion of the game, I hope not, I expect this to sell well). So although the proportion of money is greater from publisher:middleman than with retailers, the amount that Maddox Games gets is still dependent upon their agreement with the publisher as to the division of profits *out* of this greater cut from Steam.

[F19_Klunk]

I have been using Steam for many a years and have never had any real problems.-.. leat time my login didn't work must have been back in 07 or 08.... but worked after a minute.

Beside the fact that 1C and Maddox games will have a MUCH larger chunk of my dough with steam and it is a very easy to use and handy software that organize ones game nicely.. there is ONE thing I don't like with it.. it's WAY to easy to press that button.. "Purchase".. ;)

[JG52Krupi]

I don't think that people are getting the way the money issue works here, though, probably because as you say, a lot of people don't seem to understand that 1C is a publisher and Maddox Games is the developer here, they are not the same thing, 1C are co-publishing with Ubi.....

True and I expect an argument between 1c and Ubi over who has the rights to sell cod on steam is why we can't preorder through steam atm

[JG27+Freid]

To The Grunch and Luftrofl. I came on here and gave my personal opinion right or wrong and regardless if you agree or not. I did not attack or insult anyone whether I did or did not agree with their opinion and whether i felt it was right or wrong. Both of you attacked me personally and disrespectfully based on the fact you did not like or agree with my opinion. Who are you to try and bully people that come on here. These are not your personal forums. I will be filing a complaint with the administrators of this forum based on your unwarranted insulting and personal attacks.

[TheGrunch]

Feel free to do that. Personally I feel your immediate insulting generalisations about a large group of people were far more offensive than our replies.

[JG52Krupi]

Dammit can i change my vote? I got shogun 2 today but, because of steam I cant play it until its official release date on the 15th :rolleyes:

Can't wait to try it, love the Japanese Samurai era.

[ElAurens]

Really wouldn't it have just been so much better if 1C had decided to just market CoD on Steam, thereby taking advantage of the large pool of potential buyers, but left the requirement to have it for play out of the deal? This is how it is for many other games and it works just fine.

That way those who like Steam could buy the title that way, and us old time, loyal players, would be happy with our current way of doing things and not have to have Steam.

That would have been a win~win for all of us.

[The Kraken]

Really wouldn't it have just been so much better if 1C had decided to just market CoD on Steam, thereby taking advantage of the large pool of potential buyers, but left the requirement to have it for play out of the deal? This is how it is for many other games and it works just fine.

I'd have preferred that as well, many other companies do so. However from 1C's point of view Steam is a no-brainer, at least for all their other games they seem to be doing well with it. It's the only way they publish in the west and they don't need to build any relationship to retailers that way, which they never had to start with.

Big open questions for me are still:
- why is Ubi also tying in Steam (technical reasons? requirement from 1C for multiplayer compatibility?)
- why is it not for sale on Steam so far (can't think of anything so I blame Ubi for that, they deserve it either way)
- will it eventually be on sale through Steam by either 1C or Ubi (fingers crossed for 1C...)

The "how can we buy what we want to buy" mystery continues...

[JG52Uther]

And while everyone is so over the moon with steam,lets hope we don't end up with EA games system!
From the destructoid forums,not directly linking 'cos of the swearing ;)

If you ever needed more evidence of how ludicrously some publishers treat PC players, you can stop your search right here. A gamer was recently punished for using "bad language" on BioWare's forums with a ban from Dragon Age II. Yep, if you screw up on a message board, EA can stop you from playing legally purchased, offline games.

The ban was for referring to EA as a "devil", which netted the user a 72-hour suspension. During that period, he was unable to play Dragon Age II because he needed his suspended account in order to activate it. BioWare's only response was to copy and paste the terms and services of its forums, basically in order to say "not our problem."

Electronic Arts, however, has since revoked the ban -- likely due to a lot of outraged gamer backlash -- and has claimed the suspension from the game was a "mistake." Apparently he was only supposed to be suspended from the forum, but got locked out of everything that requires an EA account.

Yet further proof that EA doesn't know what the **** it's doing with its stupid EA account nonsense. Still, nice to know that such clueless chimps can essentially hold your games to ransom.

[Luftrofl]

To The Grunch and Luftrofl. I came on here and gave my personal opinion right or wrong and regardless if you agree or not. I did not attack or insult anyone whether I did or did not agree with their opinion and whether i felt it was right or wrong. Both of you attacked me personally and disrespectfully based on the fact you did not like or agree with my opinion. Who are you to try and bully people that come on here. These are not your personal forums. I will be filing a complaint with the administrators of this forum based on your unwarranted insulting and personal attacks.

Aww you poor thing. You gave totally false information as fact and got called out on it. Grow up and admit you have no clue what you're talking about, then use it as a learning experience.

Next time if you want to give your opinion make sure it's an informed one, or keep it to yourself.

Also, if someone who points out you lied and don't know about the subject matter offends you so much you are awfully sensitive.

I bet you still haven't bothered looking up what really happened between Ubi and Steam about the DRM. If you had the right course of action would have been to come correct your statement. But, since twisting the truth to make Steam look bad was the point all along, why would you?

[zauii]

That way those who like Steam could buy the title that way, and us old time, loyal players, would be happy with our current way of doing things and not have to have Steam.

That would have been a win~win for all of us.

So the rest of us ain't loyal enough because we support steam? or could it simply be that we're less paranoid and actually know how the service works..

[Hellfire257]

What the hell do you think you are doing!?

Bad move indeed. You're only feeding a monster when you use Steam. Very disappointing. Was there really any need to do it? No. People won't want to buy CoD now. Yes, it may be a minority, but those figures soon add up. And how much will those lost sales cost you? How much?

[kimosabi]

I vote that the whiners get YuPlay DRM instead. That should shut them up.

[zauii]

What the hell do you think you are doing!?

Bad move indeed. You're only feeding a monster when you use Steam. Very disappointing. Was there really any need to do it? No. People won't want to buy CoD now. Yes, it may be a minority, but those figures soon add up. And how much will those lost sales cost you? How much?

Tbh if that would be the case, you'd be the loser as Oleg is your only hope of a modern state of the art ww2 flight sim for quite a while. Thankfully it's only a small minority which is against steam.
Steam is no monster btw, its a great solid platform.

[ElAurens]

So the rest of us ain't loyal enough because we support steam? or could it simply be that we're less paranoid and actually know how the service works..



zauii, you are reading something into my statement that I am not implying.

Why so defensive about Steam? It's not your country, or your family, it's a game downloading service.

Did you miss where I said that selling CoD on Steam was OK and probably a good thing?

Once again I will lay it out for you as plainly as I can...

Selling Cliffs of Dover on STEAM is a good thing for the sim. Making those of us who purchase it through other means have STEAM on our computers is not a good thing.

As I said, other developers and publishers market on Steam and also through traditional outlets, and they do not require those that buy the product from a source other than Steam to have a Steam account to play. And guess what, that makes eveyone happy.

Why should Cliffs of Dover be any different?

When my group of friends get together to play ArmA II online, some of us have the Steam version and other the non-Steam version. We play the sim, have a very good time and everyone is happy.

What is wrong with that?

[Hellfire257]

Tbh if that would be the case, you'd be the loser as Oleg is your only hope of a modern state of the art ww2 flight sim for quite a while. Thankfully it's only a small minority which is against steam.
Steam is no monster btw, its a great solid platform.

Nobody said I wouldn't be buying it. Several regular Il2 players I know will not be buying it. Steam is a corporate monster. So much so that game stores have protested over not buying games which require Steamworks. You're feeding something that will eventually dominate the market. Once that happens, the price you pay to "own" your games is in their hands.

[Dangerdog]

Don't have any issues with Steam or in this case Steamworks (browser for match making etc), thank goodness they're not using Games for Windows Live.

[David603]

Nobody said I wouldn't be buying it. Several regular Il2 players I know will not be buying it. Steam is a corporate monster. So much so that game stores have protested over not buying games which require Steamworks. You're feeding something that will eventually dominate the market. Once that happens, the price you pay to "own" your games is in their hands.
Game stores protested because Steam was going to sell PC games for less than the RRP, while still giving several times as much money to the developers of the games per sale. Said game stores threatened to stop stocking games that use Steam unless Steam was forced to keep selling games at RRP. If Steam had their way we would able to buy games at considerably cheaper prices.

Also, the game stores rake off around 60% of the price you pay in-store for each game.

[o. doorenbos]

If Steam had their way we would able to buy games at considerably cheaper prices.

How come I can always get the same game on Amazon for half as much as on steam then?

I can live with Steam. But I prefer to do without it. Being a cheapskate I was going to wait till this game was about £20. With Steam forced on me, I will wait till its £10. That way when Steam fails me, I wont feel so bad.

[zauii]

How come I can always get the same game on Amazon for half as much as on steam then?

I can live with Steam. But I prefer to do without it. Being a cheapskate I was going to wait till this game was about £20. With Steam forced on me, I will wait till its £10. That way when Steam fails me, I wont feel so bad.

mm.. yeh it feels good "supporting" the hard work of the developers with your 10£ doesn't it...

[shadowze]

Hmmm , IF forced to use steam I will not be buying at launch

In 3 months time when it is in the bargin bin for 4.99 I will give it a go

This decision is defo going to hurt sales

[JG301_HaJa]

I thought I wouldn't post here but I have to make a remarque about those commenting about those not buying due to STEAM isn't supportive.

I dare to say those reluctant are the oldtimers, I'm one myself. I have decided not to buy initially because I want to see what happens with SolidShield as DRM and STEAM together.

Furthermore, the more I read about STEAM in official sites and by searching I'm leaning towards a no go whatever the case.

But now to the initial point. Most of the oldtimers like myself has bought every single CD/DVD produced by OM and thus supported him and 1C all the way possible. Most of us, me included, has been simming the better part of the last decade and then some.

We are old enough not to take "sweet talk" by companies like STEAM supplier by the word thus keeping a healthy skeptical approach. There is no such thing as a free lunch after all.

With STEAM you're not buying a licence but a subscription and as such it can be revoked at any time and you can't do anything about it. That together with extensive data-mining is enough for some of us to be apprehensive about this move.

With that said I respect all people liking STEAM but I do feel that for us wanting a DVD STEAM would not be required as per ARMA2 for instance.

regards and sorry for the spelling :)

[leggit]

I thought I wouldn't post here but I have to make a remarque about those commenting about those not buying due to STEAM isn't supportive.

I dare to say those reluctant are the oldtimers, I'm one myself. I have decided not to buy initially because I want to see what happens with SolidShield as DRM and STEAM together.

Furthermore, the more I read about STEAM in official sites and by searching I'm leaning towards a no go whatever the case.

But now to the initial point. Most of the oldtimers like myself has bought every single CD/DVD produced by OM and thus supported him and 1C all the way possible. Most of us, me included, has been simming the better part of the last decade and then some.

We are old enough not to take "sweet talk" by companies like STEAM supplier by the word thus keeping a healthy skeptical approach. There is no such thing as a free lunch after all.

With STEAM you're not buying a licence but a subscription and as such it can be revoked at any time and you can't do anything about it. That together with extensive data-mining is enough for some of us to be apprehensive about this move.

With that said I respect all people liking STEAM but I do feel that for us wanting a DVD STEAM would not be required as per ARMA2 for instance.

regards and sorry for the spelling :)

I've been playing flight sims since the 1980's....i'm quite happy to use steam....speak for yourself.. as your not really qualified to speak for others.

[Revvin]

I've been playing flight sims since the 1980's....i'm quite happy to use steam....speak for yourself.. as your not really qualified to speak for others.

Agreed, been playing since the 80's. Times move on and Steam is not some evil corporation that will sacrifice your first born.

[JG52Krupi]

Hmmm , IF forced to use steam I will not be buying at launch

In 3 months time when it is in the bargin bin for 4.99 I will give it a go

This decision is defo going to hurt sales

Im sorry but I hope you are being sarcastic, seriouly how could you make a post that states game sales are going to be affected when over 82% of the ppl on this forum have stated that they will buy cod regardless.... go bury your head in the sand some more, but be careful you might find yourself staring at a the earths inner core...

[Hellfire257]

Im sorry but I hope you are being sarcastic, seriouly how could you make a post that states game sales are going to be affected when over 82% of the ppl on this forum have stated that they will buy cod regardless.... go bury your head in the sand some more, but be careful you might find yourself staring at a the earths inner core...

Might I point out that that is at maximum 18% of missing sales. That is a lot of lost money when you are dealing with lots of money.

Do the maths.

[Dano]

Might I point out that that is at maximum 18% of missing sales. That is a lot of lost money when you are dealing with lots of money.

Do the maths.

No, it's a maximum of 18% of the forum population which is a very minor % of sales and will not in any way reflect the overall demographic.

[ElAurens]

over 82% of the ppl on this forum...

Rather, that is 82% of the people that voted in a poorly worded poll designed to achieve the outcome that the original poster wanted to get.

Most players of this series do not visit or post on this, or any other forum.

So lets not invent some "facts" to support anyone's side of this.


And I would still like a reasoned response to the Steam requirement for all players, wether they purchased the game on Steam or not, from someone in authority at 1C or Maddox Games. Clearly UBI had nothing to do with this.

[JG52Krupi]

Might I point out that that is at maximum 18% of missing sales. That is a lot of lost money when you are dealing with lots of money.

Do the maths.

Yes as was stated before 18% of a tiny insignificant forum.... compared to a huge very impressive tool (STEAM) with a huge user base.

Its time you took a peak outside the "Banana Forums" and realizes you need to do the maths LOL....how deluded can you get?

[JG52Krupi]

Rather, that is 82% of the people that voted in a poorly worded poll designed to achieve the outcome that the original poster wanted to get.

Most players of this series do not visit or post on this, or any other forum.

So lets not invent some "facts" to support anyone's side of this.


And I would still like a reasoned response to the Steam requirement for all players, wether they purchased the game on Steam or not, from someone in authority at 1C or Maddox Games. Clearly UBI had nothing to do with this.

Could you give me an example of an err... Unbiased poll then, yet another deluded person that can't see further than the tip of their nose.

I thought old people were wise but this forum has completely reversed that to older means... presumptive, selfish and unreasonable.

So Oleg shouldn't be allowed to open his game up to a larger audience and let his team get the money and praise for 6 years hard work because ~60 people on this forum have a sissy fit.

I can understand why you might not like steam and there are plenty of people out there that refuse to use steam sure but most of those boil down to misconceptions and bad luck that some have experienced using steam...

Hell im not going to be a fool, I have waited 6 years for a game to come out I will not let the fact that it uses a steam interface turn me away at the last second...

[ElAurens]

1. There is no such thing as an unbiased poll.

2. Read my post for comprehension next time.

Where did I say Oleg should not sell the game on Steam? I did not say that, in fact I have said it would be good for the sim.

What I am asking is why the draconian requirement to have a Steam account to use the software even if you did not buy it from Steam.

Can you understand the difference?

Lots of titles are marketed on Steam and through traditional outlets and they do not require a Steam account for those that do not buy the Steam version. Why should Cliffs of Dover be any different?

It's about choice and freedom in the market place.

[JG52Krupi]

2. Read my post for comprehension next time.


Comprehend what exactly?

I do agree with the fact they didn't have to use steamworks but there are benefits to a lot of people, I still fail to see why people are getting fed up over having to install steam on there computer (Unless those reports are true and it was actually made by governments so they could spy on your internet activities... ;) believe me there are plenty of software hidden in windows and other "Trusted" software that would make your jaw hit the floor, if you have the internet you might as well walk around with a huge sign tied to your back listing all your personal details in size 200 font).

Also when i said show me an example of a unbiased poll i was sarcastically saying "1. There is no such thing as an unbiased poll." so "2. Read my post for comprehension next time."

[zauii]

So Oleg shouldn't be allowed to open his game up to a larger audience and let his team get the money and praise for 6 years hard work because ~60 people on this forum have a sissy fit.

I can understand why you might not like steam and there are plenty of people out there that refuse to use steam sure but most of those boil down to misconceptions and bad luck that some have experienced using steam...

Hell im not going to be a fool, I have waited 6 years for a game to come out I will not let the fact that it uses a steam interface turn me away at the last second...

Quoted for truth, well said.

[The Kraken]

And I would still like a reasoned response to the Steam requirement for all players, wether they purchased the game on Steam or not, from someone in authority at 1C or Maddox Games. Clearly UBI had nothing to do with this.

Steam prevents reselling your game which is certainly something Ubi likes to see; they've made sure that is the case for all of their recent PC titles (mostly through their own DRM system). So it's quite possible that this is also a factor for them.

Some official clarification would be welcome, but if it's part of the contracts then I doubt we'll get an answer.

[Luftrofl]

1. There is no such thing as an unbiased poll.

2. Read my post for comprehension next time.

Where did I say Oleg should not sell the game on Steam? I did not say that, in fact I have said it would be good for the sim.

What I am asking is why the draconian requirement to have a Steam account to use the software even if you did not buy it from Steam.

Can you understand the difference?

Lots of titles are marketed on Steam and through traditional outlets and they do not require a Steam account for those that do not buy the Steam version. Why should Cliffs of Dover be any different?

It's about choice and freedom in the market place.

1. The poll is about as unbiased as you can get. Just because it didn't turn out the way you would have liked doesn't mean you can write it off.

2. Wait for Oleg to say why it's being required. For all we know Steam may have offered him money for doing this.

3. You don't seem to know what draconian really means.

To the other guy- PC games have crap for resale value and anyone who objects to digital download on those grounds is pretty dense.

I can understand people having questions and wanting to hear from Oleg but come on the horse is dead. It's been established the program is safe and will not prevent anyone from playing offline. You will not find out the exact reason why it's required until he finally gets around to answering it. Frankly they have done a crap job of keeping everyone up to date about it. Between posting info about Steam/release date and posting a few screenshots/boring video, one would think the choice is clear.

[lwlooz]

Hello,

First off , thanks for making IL2 . Had much fun with it in the past.
As for this new game:

From what I can gather you are not selling Il2 over the Steam Distribution Platform just yet.
So you are using Steamworks(which apparently needs a the same Steam account as for the Distribution anyways. I question the fair competition prospect of that. See EU/Microsoft browser case)
I have three questions regarding this.

1. As an IL2-Player, what are exactly the benefits for me from this?
Steamworks (http://www.steampowered.com/steamworks/gameservices.php)
Steamworks API (https://partner.steamgames.com/documentation/api)

I have never had the desire for any of this in IL2 nor can I see needing any of this in the future.

2. As this appears to be largely optional as the DRM is handled by a seperate system , will I in the future be able to buy this game without Steamworks off a different digital distribution company like GamersGate ?
(My personal choice for buying digital if I would , I hope you can accept that as I can accept you loving Steam :) , not sure if Steamworks is on there)

3. If you include Steamworks , what role does UBI play exactly?
Unless they ship physical copies without this , I can't see why you can't drop them as middleman completly. Which makes me question why they would even do this.

Thanks for any information and I apologize if I got something about Steamworks wrong , even tho I tried to read into it somewhat before.

[Gimpymoo]

Steam is great.

Hundreds of games in my library.

Discs are for old people who dont have an internet connection.

[Blackdog_kt]

And while everyone is so over the moon with steam,lets hope we don't end up with EA games system!
From the destructoid forums,not directly linking 'cos of the swearing ;)

If you ever needed more evidence of how ludicrously some publishers treat PC players, you can stop your search right here. A gamer was recently punished for using "bad language" on BioWare's forums with a ban from Dragon Age II. Yep, if you screw up on a message board, EA can stop you from playing legally purchased, offline games.

The ban was for referring to EA as a "devil", which netted the user a 72-hour suspension. During that period, he was unable to play Dragon Age II because he needed his suspended account in order to activate it. BioWare's only response was to copy and paste the terms and services of its forums, basically in order to say "not our problem."

Electronic Arts, however, has since revoked the ban -- likely due to a lot of outraged gamer backlash -- and has claimed the suspension from the game was a "mistake." Apparently he was only supposed to be suspended from the forum, but got locked out of everything that requires an EA account.

Yet further proof that EA doesn't know what the **** it's doing with its stupid EA account nonsense. Still, nice to know that such clueless chimps can essentially hold your games to ransom.


This is exactly the kind of stuff that worries me with online distribution platforms. If i have some kind of technical issue, post on their forums or raise a fuss about it, could i be held hostage in a similar manner?

In the case of CoD, does anyone know if the Steam forum account is separate from the game account?


zauii, you are reading something into my statement that I am not implying.

Why so defensive about Steam? It's not your country, or your family, it's a game downloading service.

Did you miss where I said that selling CoD on Steam was OK and probably a good thing?

Once again I will lay it out for you as plainly as I can...

Selling Cliffs of Dover on STEAM is a good thing for the sim. Making those of us who purchase it through other means have STEAM on our computers is not a good thing.

As I said, other developers and publishers market on Steam and also through traditional outlets, and they do not require those that buy the product from a source other than Steam to have a Steam account to play. And guess what, that makes eveyone happy.

Why should Cliffs of Dover be any different?

When my group of friends get together to play ArmA II online, some of us have the Steam version and other the non-Steam version. We play the sim, have a very good time and everyone is happy.

What is wrong with that?

Exactly.

All we are saying is give us a choice and all the rest of you keep saying is "it's not that bad, give it a chance, it's just misconceptions and bad luck, etc etc", which totally sidesteps what the real issue is and as such doesn't constitute a valid answer.

I'll try to explain it once more: i don't think Steam is good or bad, because i don't have an opinion about it. I want to keep it that way and not have to deal with it, because it's been proven already by official sources that it's neither a necessity nor a developer choice.

Want to sell/buy the game on Steam? It's fine by me, just leave me out of it. But guess what...you can't do it yet either! :grin:

I just don't see why some of you are so keen on supporting a situation where nobody gets what they want, when it would be perfectly possible to have options that cater to almost everyone. And yes, almost 20% of lost sales is not a majority but it's not trivial either.
You're right when they say they will buy it...they will evenually, 3 months later when it's going for $20. How is that any good for Oleg's team? :rolleyes:

If anyone can answer this please go ahead. I don't want a lecture on what steam is or how it helps indy developers or how you like it, good for you if you do, i want an answer on this very simple question: isn't it better to sell both through steam and outside of it, so that everyone gets what they want and we don't have people boycotting the game or waiting until the price drops?

It's a very simple question so let's not beat around the bush any longer. If i can't get an equally simple and clear answer, i'll just chalk it up to the fact that there isn't one that both suits the "mandatory steam" viewpoint and is reasonable at the same time. Enough arguing over semantics, let's get to the meat of the matter ;)

[Mauloch]

I dislike a thief or cheat. I've had too many on-line gamming experiences ruined by them over the years to not want someone to devise a system that fights against it. If this helps to reduce the number of abusers, then I'm all for it.

[zauii]

One of the global advantages will obviously be VAC, while i think the simulation genre is quite spared from cheaters they sure exist even amongst the niche within the niche.

Personally tho I'd prefer Punkbuster, but i've nothing against VAC.. when combined with administration of dedicated servers it works just fine but without it PB wins quite
clearly due to the delayed account bans that Vac issue. Modern Warfare 2 was an obvious demonstration how crippled the system was without human intervention.

[JG52Krupi]

I get the impression that oleg was forced down the steam vac route after the il2 hardcoding was cracked and they were too far along with the new engine to generate a new anticheating system

[Maori]

What I am asking is why the draconian requirement to have a Steam account to use the software even if you did not buy it from Steam.
It's about choice and freedom in the market place.

Exactly! I can't understand companies willing to "force you" into a single option.

Also, after inspecting STEAM "agreement license" you can't agree with such abusive conditions:

"Steam does NOT guarantee continuous, error-free, virus-free or secure operation and access to steam, the software, your account and or your subscriptions"


Reading a further more you also find out that it restricts game registration and playability to the buyer's country of residence, availability is not guaranteed and there is no legal obligation to release an update disabling the authentication system in the event that Steam becomes permanently unavailable.

So they basically take your money, and do whatever they want with you. Then they eventually stop supporting your beloved game and leave you out without options.

If that is not abusive (to say the least), then I don't know what this word means.

No respect for the sincere customer.

I am very sad: no CoD for me under those conditions. I want to pay BIG money for a game so that I receive a CD-DVD, register it once and then have the freedom of playing it unrestrictively as long as I want in any country and without depending on a corporation that from the start tells you they don't care about supporting you and hence they only will be source of problems.

:(

EDIT: I am so sad about this, I even forgot to say, hello everybody :) (I usually only read, but now I just had to make a first post)

[JG52Krupi]

Exactly! I can't understand companies willing to "force you" into a single option

:(

EDIT: I am so sad about this, I even forgot to say, hello everybody :) (I usually only read, but now I just had to make a first post)

Welcome to the future.. goodbye and good luck trying to find a new flight simulator that doesn't use 3rd party software that will piss you off, steam to me is certainly the lesser of two evils as a large percentage of games on the pc require steam or games for windows live.

Trust me games for windows live currently make steam look like tranquility, people who are surprised il2 uses steam or some sort of third party software have had there eyes shut and fingers in their ears for the past 5 years at least...

[zauii]

Exactly! I can't understand companies willing to "force you" into a single option.

Also, after inspecting STEAM "agreement license" you can't agree with such abusive conditions:

"Steam does NOT guarantee continuous, error-free, virus-free or secure operation and access to steam, the software, your account and or your subscriptions"


Reading a further more you also find out that it restricts game registration and playability to the buyer's country of residence, availability is not guaranteed and there is no legal obligation to release an update disabling the authentication system in the event that Steam becomes permanently unavailable.

So they basically take your money, and do whatever they want with you. Then they eventually stop supporting your beloved game and leave you out without options.

If that is not abusive (to say the least), then I don't know what this word means.

No respect for the sincere customer.

I am very sad: no CoD for me under those conditions. I want to pay BIG money for a game so that I receive a CD-DVD, register it once and then have the freedom of playing it unrestrictively as long as I want in any country and without depending on a corporation that from the start tells you they don't care about supporting you and hence they only will be source of problems.

:(

EDIT: I am so sad about this, I even forgot to say, hello everybody :) (I usually only read, but now I just had to make a first post)

You honestly believe that anyone can promise you perfection? Seriously its obviously there because unforeseen things always can occur and that you should be aware. Exactly the same thing applies for your electricity in your house there is no 100% guarantee neither is there a 100% guarantee that your Internet connection stays online 24/7 and your more than welcome to list all the products that would be rendered completely useless in your house without electricity.

Fascinating how dependent we are huh?

The kind of perfection and stability requirements some people expect are tiresome, the service will be up an running 99% of the time just like anything else.

[ElAurens]

I will guarantee you that if this discussion was about head tracking software, that the majority of the Steam fan boys would be against the major player in the technology and for (free) choice in the marketplace.

Why is the discussion about Steam any different?

The hypocricy runs deep here.

[JG52Krupi]

I will guarantee you that if this discussion was about head tracking software, that the majority of the Steam fan boys would be against the major player in the technology and for (free) choice in the marketplace.
Why is the discussion about Steam any different?
The hypocricy runs deep here.

How can you compare head tracking to the use of steam, no comparison find a better argument if it means so much to you...

P.S. I use track ir, what do you use?

Steam is the lesser evil out of all the tools out there, plain and simple.

[Maori]

You honestly believe that anyone can promise you perfection? Seriously its obviously there because unforeseen things always can occur and that you should be aware.

With all due respect, but I see you completely missed the point ;)

and may I add that dependence to steam is not at all necessary, but artificially induced by the way CoD is delivered.

[JG52Uther]

Oh how we will all laugh if come the release date steam won't let us activate our copy...

[GnigruH]

:o

You posted in a wrong thread.
There's a special one for 'goodbyes'.

[zauii]

I have never or will ever use anything like steam or any other programs in
order to play an on line air combat flight sim. So I will not buy COD. Or any other product by UBI or 1 C if I have to give up my freedom to some cheap
azz thrid party in order to play on line. Its like having big brother watching you. NO THANK YOU!!!!! So IMHO you can take COD and put it where the sun don't shine. To those who will say "So what"!! or It to bad, maybe you like thrid party spy-ware on your PC or what to have some big company spying on you, then I say more power to you. As for me I am not going to have a game like this, if I can not buy a DVD and be able to install it with out all the trouble or hassle in order to play on line. To those who say this is the future and so live with it. I say KISS MY BUTT!!! Because I don't have to live with it, or buy this crap. I stay with Il-2 1946.

Funny , didn't Microsoft take away your "freedom" a long time ago then?
Another bunch of false accusations to try and stir up some revolution i recon?

"I can't run IL2S on win95 , they've completely taken my freedom away!" sounds almost as ridiculous as your entire post actually.. just to put it into perspective.

[Avimimus]

There is a risk of bias as the subject line says "poll regarding steam users" rather than "poll regarding steam use" or "poll regarding steam".

I initially assumed that the questions were only directed at those already using steam.

[JG52Krupi]

Yeah bias from steam haters creating multiple logins/votes.

If you don't like steam don't play cod simple really, just don't forget to wipe the tears from your eyes and sign the goodbye thread before moaning about how bad steam is somewhere else.

I suggest anybody who is refusing to buy cod due to steam should join the flat earth society as you clearly have a lot in common....

[bn880]

Steam is great.

Hundreds of games in my library.

Discs are for old people who dont have an internet connection.

It's also now a monopoly, and there should be other means to authenticate besides Steam. At least one other competitor's servers should be an available option. To keep competition going.

(no one is talking about having to use discs or not, the issue is business ethics)

Edit: The thing that people should realize is with STEAM authentication forced even for SP, you no longer own a game, you own a SUBSCRIPTION TO A GAME ONLY. Meaning that when Valve stops supporting the game title or goes bottom up, you don't have a game to play legally. Therefore in my opinion anything being _forced_ to use STEAM should be provided at a very low cost to the end user as it's a temporary use agreement.

[JG52Krupi]

I don't think Oleg is running a democracy here it's his game and he can do what he likes with it the same can be said for your money..

[bn880]

....

If you don't like steam don't play cod simple really, just don't forget to wipe the tears from your eyes and sign the goodbye thread before moaning about how bad steam is somewhere else.

I suggest anybody who is refusing to buy cod due to steam should join the flat earth society as you clearly have a lot in common....

Actually, you are the one who needs to join that society.

http://ec.europa.eu/competition/antitrust/overview_en.html

[JG52Krupi]

Actually, you are the one who needs to join that society.

http://ec.europa.eu/competition/antitrust/overview_en.html

You fool of course monopolies are dangerous just look at apple and Microsoft I hate both companies but I use windows and I'm guessing you do as well... It's not up to you to decide if oleg uses steam on his product it us however up to you to use a product that is linked to steam

Bye bye


P.s. I am sure that steam subscription rubbish people keep quoting is simple there to stop users suing steam when there net goes down or something along those lines.

[lwlooz]

Hello,

considering there are many fans of Steam here and some even defend it like they have a commerical interest in it, I will repeat maybe the most important question.

What uses does Steamworks (http://www.steampowered.com/steamworks/gameservices.php) have for us IL2 players?

Considering the majority wants to have it and apparently there are better things than VAC and that has been circumvented , someone ought to come up with a different explanation than "Steam is great", "I have 200 games on Steam" , which is especially silly since i can't see the game as being buyable on Steam currently.

[JG52Krupi]

The benefit for me is vac, friends list, easy to use and reliable.

What I'm trying to find out us why people are refusing to buy clod due to steam, I can't see any negatives unless you only play single player but even then you can use the offline mode!!

Yes it's annoying that it is a requirement but again steam is the lesser evil of all the other tools around that they could have used.

[bn880]

You fool of course monopolies are dangerous just look at apple and Microsoft I hate both companies but I use windows and I'm guessing you do as well... It's not up to you to decide if oleg uses steam on his product it us however up to you to use a product that is linked to steam

Bye bye


Why do you feel the need to constantly insult people and call them names? Are you insecure, generally people act this way when they have no other way to control a situation. From what I can see 66% of people don't mind STEAM so you are in a majority. This speaks to psychological issues you may wish to address.

[JG52Krupi]

Why do you feel the need to constantly insult people and call them names? Are you insecure, generally people act this way when they have no other way to control a situation. From what I can see 66% of people don't mind STEAM so you are in a majority. This speaks to psychological issues you may wish to address.

Sorry I did not want to insult you and I dont feel the need to/constantly insult people, you are the first :D, you are not being forced to use steam to play all games just this one it's hardly a monopoly and more people have started to use impulse and direct to drive.

Steam is in no way a monopoly hence the fool part, again sorry about that but don't even try to label steam a monopoly if you want to see a monopoly just look at Microsoft...

Lol at my apparent psychological issues u best agree with me before I go on a murder spree ;), if steam is sued for being a monopoly like microsoft has then I will agree with u until then it's no more of a monopoly than your local fish and chip shop if you don't like the food don't eat there :D

[ElAurens]

In this case Steam is indeed a monopoly as you must have the Steam client in order to run the game, even offline.

Unlike, say, ArmA II where you can purchase the game on Steam, or not, and anyone can play online in any server they choose, no matter how they purchased it.

And I'm really starting to think that there a a lot of shills on both forums now promoting Steam as if there life depended on it.

[JG52Uther]

And I'm really starting to think that there a a lot of shills on both forums now promoting Steam as if there life depended on it.
Quoted for truth.

[CWMV]

Well, I just registered here to reply to this thread.
Ive been playing IL2 since its debut here in the states. Between 1C, TD, and the modding community at large its been my go to flight sim for ~10 years. Ive been anxiously awaiting the release of this since 2005 and now that I find steam is involved, well, talk about a buzzkill. Ive used steam in the past, with bad results. Invasive programs that I never wanted in the first place, running in the background of my computer, stupid long download times and having to run this program even if I want to play offline (which is all I really do)...simple solution though, I'm just not going to buy it.
If there was any other option (short of SH5 type DRM) Id go for it, but this is too much for me to stomach.
I'm not going to cry about it, fact is its 1C's loss. I still have a top noch flight sim thats only getting better with age.

[zauii]

In this case Steam is indeed a monopoly as you must have the Steam client in order to run the game, even offline.

Unlike, say, ArmA II where you can purchase the game on Steam, or not, and anyone can play online in any server they choose, no matter how they purchased it.

And I'm really starting to think that there a a lot of shills on both forums now promoting Steam as if there life depended on it.


Not at all i think its more the opposite way, people whine and moan about the evil Steam as if their 50$ lifetime investment depend upon it, comparing Steam with spy-ware and viruses just shows the ignorance.
How about take a chill pill, catch up and enjoy the most authentic flight recreation of ww2 ever to be released, or you can simply sit there waiting for Steam to go away, which won't happen.

[JG301_HaJa]

I've been playing flight sims since the 1980's....i'm quite happy to use steam....speak for yourself.. as your not really qualified to speak for others.

Absolutely correct, wasn't intended in that fasion. Difficult to be correct all the time when English is'nt my native language, I appologize how it came out.

Still I think those raising their voice in concern shouldn't be dissmissed as anti-progression. I don't mind download versions. That is how I got RoF, Flaming Cliffs and DCS but I just don't like STEAM due to all the facts (as I see them) available in their EULA and in other forums and so on so forth. If that makes me a bad individual and marked as unsupportive of OM and 1C then that be it.

I will still be happy with all other sims on my PC and I don't have all the time in the world anyway with family and fulltime job.

[CWMV]

Not at all i think its more the opposite way, people whine and moan about the evil Steam as if their 50$ lifetime investment depend upon it, comparing Steam with spy-ware and viruses just shows the ignorance.
How about take a chill pill, catch up and enjoy the most authentic flight recreation of ww2 ever to be released, or you can simply sit there waiting for Steam to go away, which won't happen.

Or, wait for the cracked version at which point Ill send a check for $50 to 1C.
So thats the only argument you steamers have? "get used to it"? Well apparently alot of us don't want to, and for that matter don't need to.
Steam is exactly like any other malicious software in that I dont want it, and wont of my own choice have it.
Not quite sure why the steamers have such a hard time with this concept?

[JG52Krupi]

In this case Steam is indeed a monopoly as you must have the Steam client in order to run the game, even offline.

Unlike, say, ArmA II where you can purchase the game on Steam, or not, and anyone can play online in any server they choose, no matter how they purchased it.

And I'm really starting to think that there a a lot of shills on both forums now promoting Steam as if there life depended on it.

Hows that different to "shills" on both forums creating damaging facts without any base about steam "like there life depended upon it" LOL

NO STEAM IS NOT A MONOPOLY IN THIS CASE, your not forced to purchase clod its a game.... your livelihood does not depend on clod, and if it does i will gladly take over your job :D

I personally am not promoting steam, i am merely trying to understand why people will flat out refuse to use a software which generally very few people have problems with and is FREE.

[JG52Krupi]

Or, wait for the cracked version at which point Ill send a check for $50 to 1C.
So thats the only argument you steamers have? "get used to it"? Well apparently alot of us don't want to, and for that matter don't need to.
Steam is exactly like any other malicious software in that I dont want it, and wont of my own choice have it.
Not quite sure why the steamers have such a hard time with this concept?

A crack will still require steam.

[zauii]

Or, wait for the cracked version at which point Ill send a check for $50 to 1C.
So thats the only argument you steamers have? "get used to it"? Well apparently alot of us don't want to, and for that matter don't need to.
Steam is exactly like any other malicious software in that I dont want it, and wont of my own choice have it.
Not quite sure why the steamers have such a hard time with this concept?


Far from the only argument we have, but that post wasn't intended to list all my arguments.
I'm sure you and the rest of the crack-pirates will send your money straight to 1c maddox office....... riight.

[Fockzhound]

Also, I'm pretty sure you won't be doing much online gaming with the cracked version.

Look, steam has many more pro's than con's, it has saved PC gaming. Conservative Grandpa haters have teary eyes for yester year when PC games were stocked on shelves in large numbers. 1C have decided to use Steam to sell more copies of the games, why blame for that. It really isn't that bad, as 56% of people here know.

Cry some more.

[lwlooz]

Hello,

apart from the shills/false-flag operators , thanks for the information on steam use. :)

The benefit for me is vac, friends list, easy to use and reliable.


I don't see the point of a friends list when there is IRC, ICQ, Skype, MSN, Facebook and forums or knowing people.

The reason I don't like this news of Steamworks installation is that is by definition a bloated packaged. If I had to sign up somewhere for Anti-Cheat software to be run when I play on certain servers , I would do that.
But Steamworks is linked with the Store and all the social/achievement gimmicks I really see as useful for casual gaming , but don't think are at all useful for a sim like ours.

Apart from that I don't see why 1C wants to cut out potential customers on the accounts of being lazy. This whole Steamworks thing could be completely optional in my limited view.
If you choose to opt out and buy it somewhere else , you just wouldn't have the Steamworks features or couldn't play on some Steam-Enabled servers.
Who would be hurt by that? Steam-User and Non-Steam-Users happy.

If 1C wants to ship DLC , I think all other Digital Distribution retailers do that too, so I fail again to see the point of only going with Steam.

On another note I don't think you can prove Valve to have a monopoly or it's competitor would have already done so. But the fact that they use Steamworks to draw customers to their store is certainly evil and will hurt competition and innovation in the long run.
We might end up having Steam as a proprietary industry standard and all your games belong to Valve which nicely grants you a subscription :grin:

[Mick]

I just wanted to BUY CoD, I was even ready to have to be connected once and ONLY once, to activate the sim upon install, and then use MY game whenever I want WITHOUT having that Steam thingie somewhere in my PC ...

I did BUY IL2 way back in 2001, and then everything published by Oleg ... but I WON'T BUY Cod with that totally USELESS Steam thingie ...

[sallee]

I never particularly wanted Steam, I had to have it for some of the Total War series, but now I've got it it's just fine. it's never been a bother to me.

[Hellfire257]

Yes as was stated before 18% of a tiny insignificant forum.... compared to a huge very impressive tool (STEAM) with a huge user base.

Its time you took a peak outside the "Banana Forums" and realizes you need to do the maths LOL....how deluded can you get?

Feel free to post a poll on SAS or AAS then. Watch your mouth too. I've seen how many problems Steam has caused for the ARMA2 community (The group I'm in for example) - the majority being among the less PC competent people. However, we must not forget the strange method of running Combined Operations. I don't want to see the same happening to the IL-2 community.

Regarding the Maths, even a 2% loss is massive. Lets say 1C sell 1,000,000 units. Now, factor in the lost sales: what is 2% of 1,000,000? 20,000. 20,000 units at £30 of revenue each is £600,000 lost. So, that is nothing, of course. Would you turn down £600,000 of revenue?

If I was as rude as yourself, I would say you're deluded. However, I will refrain since I respect you.

[JG52Krupi]

Feel free to post a poll on SAS or AAS then. Watch your mouth too. I've seen how many problems Steam has caused for the ARMA2 community (The group I'm in for example) - the majority being among the less PC competent people. However, we must not forget the strange method of running Combined Operations. I don't want to see the same happening to the IL-2 community.

Regarding the Maths, even a 2% loss is massive. Lets say 1C sell 1,000,000 units. Now, factor in the lost sales: what is 2% of 1,000,000? 20,000. 20,000 units at £30 of revenue each is £600,000 lost. So, that is nothing, of course. Would you turn down £600,000 of revenue?

If I was as rude as yourself, I would say you're deluded. However, I will refrain since I respect you.

Respect not sure if I deserve any after my last few post... I have been a bit outspoken with my replies.

I don't mean to be rude but i just can't get my head around the moaning on this forum.

[Hellfire257]

Respect not sure if I deserve any after my last few post... I have been a bit outspoken with my replies.

I don't mean to be rude but i just can't get my head around the moaning on this forum.

:) Its not me, I'll be buying it for sure. I'm just speaking for others.

[GnigruH]

@ zaui
well you can take your comment and stick it up your azz. People like you are a penny a doz. It is people like you that cause the rest of the world to lose thier freedom.
So take your comment and steam and shove it up your azz.

If you want your freedom back, go build yourself a hut and live there with no electricity and toilet paper. Quit your job, if you have one, and feed yourself with what you can hunt.
No trolling on internet forums either.

[JG52Krupi]

I just want to thank the last two poster for making my posts look be tad more articulate... cheers :D

[I/ZG52_HaDeS]

STEAM? No thanks.

If i will ever want to install a Spyware/Malware that monitors my activities like STEAM and also if i would like to LEASE a game Instead of Purchasing it and use it Wherever i like then I'll think about Steam.

Until then no thanks.

P.S.
I couldn't imagine how things for SoW/CoD could go worse than its ~5 years delay. I guess i was wrong. Well done :D

[Davy TASB]

STEAM? No thanks.

If i will ever want to install a Spyware/Malware that monitors my activities like STEAM and also if i would like to LEASE a game Instead of Purchasing it and use it Wherever i like then I'll think about Steam.



Even if you buy a boxed copy these days, you are still only "leasing" the product.
Read the EULAs.

I say Steam is OK but you should have an option to use Steam or another form of DRM.... as long as isn't GFWL.

[CWMV]

Far from the only argument we have, but that post wasn't intended to list all my arguments.
I'm sure you and the rest of the crack-pirates will send your money straight to 1c maddox office....... riight.

And why not? $50 pales in Comparison to the amount of money Ive bought buying all the IL2 iterations, and then the replacements because they inevitably get lost over the course of a decade of duty station moves and deployments, etc.
Ive got no problem paying for it. Hell Id pay more for a non-steamer version happily.
Im not even going off on the freedom viewpoint, thats neither here nor there, I simply do not want to run steam after my horribble experiences with it.
And I wont.

Also, I'm pretty sure you won't be doing much online gaming with the cracked version.

Dont care about online gaming. Looks like most of us who don't want steam are offliners

Look, steam has many more pro's than con's,

Definitely not what Id say after using it.

it has saved PC gaming.

Don't care about PC gaming, I care about IL2 and not having a bunch of bloatware to run the one computer game I have

...yada yada yada...
Cry some more.
:rolleyes:
Speaking of, this is all I can find for 1C's address:
21, Seleznevskaya str.
Moscow
Is this right? I'm serious about sending them a check when I download the non steam version.

[JG52Krupi]

And why not? $50 pales in Comparison to the amount of money Ive bought buying all the IL2 iterations, and then the replacements because they inevitably get lost over the course of a decade of duty station moves and deployments, etc.
Ive got no problem paying for it. Hell Id pay more for a non-steamer version happily.
Im not even going off on the freedom viewpoint, thats neither here nor there, I simply do not want to run steam after my horribble experiences with it.
And I wont.


Speaking of, this is all I can find for 1C's address:
21, Seleznevskaya str.
Moscow
Is this right? I'm serious about sending them a check when I download the non steam version.

Im pretty sure even cracked games require the steam interface.

[I/ZG52_HaDeS]

Im pretty sure even cracked games require the steam interface.

Don't be so sure, not even for the multiplayer part ;)

[Thee_oddball]

Im pretty sure even cracked games require the steam interface.
Oleg said we can still use Hl and the like.

This raises something of an interesting question...how do we define "Cracked" ?

Will cracked be a version you download that completely bypass's Steam and solidshield or will cracked be a program that does nothing more than bypass Steam and allow you to register/activate your hard copy through SolidShield?

I would say the latter would not be defined as "cracked" but more on the lines of a "NO-CD" program.

S!

[JG52Krupi]

Don't be so sure, not even for the multiplayer part ;)

Well then i guess you have never used steam and come across vac...

I would be very surprised if the crack worked online.

[I/ZG52_HaDeS]

Well then i guess you have never used steam and come across vac...


Don't guess... you are not good at it it seems ;)


I would be very surprised if the crack worked online.


You'll get used to it ;)

[major_setback]

Why is there never an option in these polls for: ' I don't know enough about it to comment'. ?

[Luftrofl]

Why is there never an option in these polls for: ' I don't know enough about it to comment'. ?

Because they would have clicked the "No I do not have Steam and will not for CoD" option anyway.

[BadAim]

Wow. Doom and gloom, it's the end of the world. The more I know about people, the less sense they make to me. The funny thing is I bet the vast majority of the naysayers here are devout socialists. Oh, well no skin off my butt. I'll have COD one way or another (and I'll pay for it).

[BadAim]

Why is there never an option in these polls for: ' I don't know enough about it to comment'. ?

Because the majority of forumites could never admit such a thing anyway.

[Revvin]

Regarding the Maths, even a 2% loss is massive. Lets say 1C sell 1,000,000 units. Now, factor in the lost sales: what is 2% of 1,000,000? 20,000. 20,000 units at £30 of revenue each is £600,000 lost. So, that is nothing, of course. Would you turn down £600,000 of revenue?

If I was as rude as yourself, I would say you're deluded. However, I will refrain since I respect you.

You assume that everyone who says they will not buy will stick by that and thus is a lost sale never gained when its highly likely having the game on Steam will see it gain some sales, perhaps even replace those who say they will not buy it on Steam.

Even the most ardent boycott groups have broken down once the game is released. I remember the boycott groups for Modern Warfare 2 and Left 4 Dead 2 being full of members who were seen playing the game on Steam days after they released, so much for their resolve.

[palker4]

I just wanted to BUY CoD, I was even ready to have to be connected once and ONLY once, to activate the sim upon install, and then use MY game whenever I want WITHOUT having that Steam thingie somewhere in my PC ...

I did BUY IL2 way back in 2001, and then everything published by Oleg ... but I WON'T BUY Cod with that totally USELESS Steam thingie ...

I guess you do not buy new games very often cause if you did you would have steam installed for quite some time

[ElAurens]

I guess you do not buy new games very often cause if you did you would have steam installed for quite some time

False premise.

I buy new games often, and I don't buy them on Steam.

Have any other baseless arguments you care to try?

[Blackdog_kt]

The following is directed entirely to the people who think that if they repeat something enough times, it will somehow gain more validity. It is by no means meant to insult or aggravate the people who can keep a cool head and be civil in expressing their opinions, regardless of whether they support Steam integration or not.


Ok, this is going around in circles so let's summarize.

1) A few uninformed people post inaccurate stuff about Steam.

2) A few Steam fans get their panties in a twist.

3) Lot's of other people on both sides of the argument who have something valid to say, can't get their point across because they are caught in the above stupid crossfire.

Instead of realizing that your opinion is not shared by everyone, some of you are going around brandishing e-peens the size of the Eiffel tower, ridiculing people with a different opinion and generally taking pleasure on forcing something you like on a bunch of people that will see absolutely no benefit from it, because it somehow makes you feel superior on the internets. You gain a big fat NOTHING, sweet f**k all, from forcing this on others and neither do the developers from having a bunch of unhappy customers and a near 20% drop in sales, but hey, why let common sense interfere with being on a good roll point-scoring on the forums :rolleyes:

I'm generally a poster who can exercise some self-moderation and not fly off the leash at other people's necks but some of you guys (you know who you are) are both getting ridiculously zealot-like and making me dislike steam even more by association with your take it or leave it attitudes. In layman's terms you are of no help whatsoever, even in promoting your own opinion and favorite platform. If this was how Steam fans behaved, then i would hope i could turn turn off my buddylist, voice chat and whatever community feature they have implemented right off the bat, so i wouldn't have to talk to them when playing a game to have some fun and relax.

But you see, i happen to realize that not all of Steam's fans are as narrow-minded and petty as that vocal minority of zealots among the generally reasonable majority of Steam's advocates so i will refrain from tarnishing the rest of them with the brush you've chosen for yourself...which is exactly what you lack the common decency to do when you label everyone who is not interested in Steam as backwards grandpas playing sims in their basements while shut out from the rest of the world. Is this enough of a taste of your own medicine, language and manners or would you like me to continue? :evil:

And now that i got this off my chest and had the chance to vent some steam (ha! see what i did there? :-P ), let's take a calmer look at what is such an easy concept to understand yet you refuse to do so (yes, refuse, because i sincerely doubt that something so simple is beyond the intellect of the average forum member here).


If you look at what the level headed, non-bashing people who don't want to use Steam have been saying all along, you'll see that

a) they are not really making any judgement about the quality of steam because they have limited personal experience (mostly negative, which is why they don't want to use it), they are just making an assumption that applies on the impact it will have on their personal gaming habits. Their Personal gaming habits, as in not yours.

b) they don't want to have to learn about Steam because

c) clear indication has been provided, coming from official sources to boot, that Steam doesn't bring anything new to the game, so it could very well be optional instead of mandatory

d) taking into account all of the above, they have questioned your motives to support forcing the use of this platform on the rest, when it's clear the game could function without it and sell better if both a steam and a non-steam version were marketed.

To this final point, NONE of you have managed to provide a satisfactory answer. So, I take there's not one then.

Don't go twisting things and telling me i don't want them to make money or how they earn more by selling through Steam, because that's exactly not what we have been saying. Of course, the rabid anti-steam hatred that some other people display makes it all the easier for you to discount our concerns by conveniently lumping us together with them, when it's clear that you have more in common among yourselves, if not in the point you are trying to push then certainly in the way you are going about trying to achieve it: by shouting a lot, orchestrating personal attacks on people who don't share your opinion and doing your damned best to keep opinions polarized and the community divided, instead of providing any semblance of a valid argument that could lead to a compromise that would benefit the greater part of the community and the developers alike. But seriously, who can blame you when you can just focus all your energy on making people accept what you say as truth no matter the cost and forcing everyone to use something that benefits you, in a way that benefits ONLY you :rolleyes:

We have no problem at all if it's sold on Steam and you want to buy there, as long as we have a different version. And for the icing on the cake, you can't even order it on Steam yet yourselves and you'll have to also use Solidshield DRM on top of Steam. You are getting shafted too but you're so glad that someone else is also, that you just don't realize it (have a look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schadenfreude).

I'll say it one more time

selling on Steam=good and we agree with it

selling ONLY versions with Steam bundled into them=bad, because apparently it causes 1 in 5 people not to buy the game on release if at all, cutting into the profits and long term expansion plans of the series

I'd say that if some of you still don't get it i can get my 5 year old nephew to bust out the crayons and draw you some pretty pictures, but we already established that a certain few don't get it simply because they don't want to :rolleyes:

So, the way it will go from here on out is that those who don't like Steam and yet decide to buy the game will accompany you, voicing their complaints with the added say a legitimate customer has in the matter until it is either bypassed by the community, made optional by an official patch, or a commitment is made to have it as an option and not as a requirement for the next installment in the series.

It does annoy enough people to resurface later on and they will campaign for an option to turn it off just like any other customer of this title will ask for his favorite feature to be included at some point. I hope you like hearing about it gentlemen because it's not going away. Have a nice day :-P

[ElAurens]

Blackdog, if you don't work for the diplomatic service of your government, you should.

Great post.

[JG301_HaJa]

+1 on that fact.
Very well spoken Blackdog.

[Mick]

I guess you do not buy new games very often cause if you did you would have steam installed for quite some time

... you guess right, IL2/FB is the ONLY game that I have, simply because I am only interested in warbirds games and IL2/FB is the very best of them all (which doesn't mean it is perfect...)

As for CoD I would like to simply BUY it, I mean the game not any other piece of software that is TOTALLY USELESS to play the game and has NOTHING TO DO with it in the first place ...

If this is possible then I'll BUY it, and it will become MINE, and I'll use it WITHOUT Steam authorization or whatever, otherwise it will remain on the shelves, and I will go on flying FB, I have enough campaigns to play it for years ...

I do NOT NEED Steam, it's as simple as that ... and I am ready to PAY a little bit more for a SteamLESS version of the DVD ...

[Revvin]

I've not really seen any good reason not to have Steam. Those against it will cite problems they had years ago with the service or some mysterious unnamed friend who installed Steam which then took over their PC and turned it into a devil worshipping silicon monster that ate their hamster.

Steam has evolved, its improved as most systems do. As someone who has used it since it first came into being because you had to install it for Half-Life 2 I've seen the many changes. It has been sometimes a little annoying. I recall buying a game a few years ago on CD that required Steam but instead of installing from disc it downloaded the whole game from the Steam server - not much fun waiting. Its improved though, recent games including one I installed today - Total War: Shogun 2 installed from the disc into Steam and it was flawless.

PC's are complicated things and you could try to devise the most foolproof system in history but you will never engineer out the rank stupidity of some portions of the human race. People have issues with Windows year on year with each new version and yet here we are still using it. You could argue its forced on us. Some people will have problems just installing IL-2:CoD in the first place but that’s not to say its a bad product. Steam gets some bad press for decisions made by the publishers and developers themselves. I recall someone making a point about ARMA II (may have been another game) having to download huge patches and not incremental ones yet most games on Steam do download small incremental patches, Steam distributes whatever the publishers or developers give to them to distribute so to me that an unfair criticism.

From the naysayers I see lots of angry bold type and caps-lock rants about having the right to this, that and the other. Read most EULA's and you'll see you only own the media the software is presented on with a non exclusive license for the software that may be revoked at any time. Steam does not ban or removed access to the system for no good reason. If it did it would not have the support of the biggest publishers in the gaming business and certainly would not have grown into the main digital distribution network it is with millions upon millions of satisfied customers.

People assume that the posters here saying they will not buy the game is already money lost to 1C. They will try to demonstrate this with maths based on figures pulled out of thin air. The reality is that Steam will draw new customers in too, perhaps even replacing the naysayers and more. Again some assume that those who say they won't buy will stick to that though even the most ardent boycotts have broken down with groups against Call of Duty and Left 4 Dead 2 saw many of its members playing those games on or after the day of release.

The benefit is quite clear. An online community under one roof. A system where you don't need to rely on support and updates to a a number of third party clients like Hyperlobby or XFire for example. Groups are already forming in the Steam community groups section to support this new game and I can see where people are playing if I want to join them. If I want privacy I simply sign out of the friends system or choose not to have it log me in when I start up Steam.

There is far too much name calling, people trotting out the tired old fanboy insult or suggesting those who like using Steam and are trying to put forward their happy experience with the system as being 'shills' and somehow being invested in the Steam service. Insults like that and calling Steam a virus really don't help give a balanced view.

[zauii]

I've not really seen any good reason not to have Steam. Those against it will cite problems they had years ago with the service or some mysterious unnamed friend who installed Steam which then took over their PC and turned it into a devil worshipping silicon monster that ate their hamster.

Steam has evolved, its improved as most systems do. As someone who has used it since it first came into being because you had to install it for Half-Life 2 I've seen the many changes. It has been sometimes a little annoying. I recall buying a game a few years ago on CD that required Steam but instead of installing from disc it downloaded the whole game from the Steam server - not much fun waiting. Its improved though, recent games including one I installed today - Total War: Shogun 2 installed from the disc into Steam and it was flawless.

PC's are complicated things and you could try to devise the most foolproof system in history but you will never engineer out the rank stupidity of some portions of the human race. People have issues with Windows year on year with each new version and yet here we are still using it. You could argue its forced on us. Some people will have problems just installing IL-2:CoD in the first place but that’s not to say its a bad product. Steam gets some bad press for decisions made by the publishers and developers themselves. I recall someone making a point about ARMA II (may have been another game) having to download huge patches and not incremental ones yet most games on Steam do download small incremental patches, Steam distributes whatever the publishers or developers give to them to distribute so to me that an unfair criticism.

From the naysayers I see lots of angry bold type and caps-lock rants about having the right to this, that and the other. Read most EULA's and you'll see you only own the media the software is presented on with a non exclusive license for the software that may be revoked at any time. Steam does not ban or removed access to the system for no good reason. If it did it would not have the support of the biggest publishers in the gaming business and certainly would not have grown into the main digital distribution network it is with millions upon millions of satisfied customers.

People assume that the posters here saying they will not buy the game is already money lost to 1C. They will try to demonstrate this with maths based on figures pulled out of thin air. The reality is that Steam will draw new customers in too, perhaps even replacing the naysayers and more. Again some assume that those who say they won't buy will stick to that though even the most ardent boycotts have broken down with groups against Call of Duty and Left 4 Dead 2 saw many of its members playing those games on or after the day of release.

The benefit is quite clear. An online community under one roof. A system where you don't need to rely on support and updates to a a number of third party clients like Hyperlobby or XFire for example. Groups are already forming in the Steam community groups section to support this new game and I can see where people are playing if I want to join them. If I want privacy I simply sign out of the friends system or choose not to have it log me in when I start up Steam.

There is far too much name calling, people trotting out the tired old fanboy insult or suggesting those who like using Steam and are trying to put forward their happy experience with the system as being 'shills' and somehow being invested in the Steam service. Insults like that and calling Steam a virus really don't help give a balanced view.

Agree, well said.

[I/ZG52_HaDeS]

People assume that the posters here saying they will not buy the game is already money lost to 1C.


In this WWII Combat Simulator marked it IS loss. CoD is NOT Arma.

And this is entertaining of yours. First you write:

They will try to demonstrate this with maths based on figures pulled out of thin air.


And then:

The reality is that Steam will draw new customers in too, perhaps even replacing the naysayers and more.


I assume yours are based in "careful, scientific calculation", LoL :D
:D :D :D


Again some assume that those who say they won't buy will stick to that though even the most ardent boycotts have broken down with groups against Call of Duty and Left 4 Dead 2 saw many of its members playing those games on or after the day of release.


Again, don't confuse CoD/IL2 with Call of Duty or Left 4 Dead 2. They are completely different markets with completely different characteristics like players age.

And this is the most entertaining of yours:

A system where you don't need to rely on support and updates to a a number of third party clients like Hyperlobby or XFire for example.


STEAM IS a Third-Party Software having nothing to do with the Game itself. Perhaps you should check your dictionary as you sound pretty ignorant to say the least.


Insults like that and calling Steam a virus really don't help give a balanced view.

Agreed on that. STEAM IS Much More than a VIRUS.

P.S.
And to quote a friend of mine:

Sometimes people lose their freedoms quickly (Blitzkrieg)
More often, people lose their freedoms like a Cancer death. It happens bit by bit and they don't even realize what's going on until it's too late.


Informative links, worth to read:

"Trusted Computing"
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/tcpa-faq.html

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/can-you-trust.html

Anti-DRM:
http://www.defectivebydesign.org/

Free Software Society:
http://shop.fsf.org/product/free-software-free-society-2/

Electronic Frontier:
http://www.eff.org/about

The Sony-BMG Rootkit Fiasco:
http://www.eff.org/cases/sony-bmg-litigation-info

Public Knowledge:
http://www.publicknowledge.org/