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xHeadbanDx
02-28-2011, 10:03 AM
Does anyone else think that only having a dozen flyable planes is pretty weak? epically when the game has been in development for some long.

i hope that there are plans to make alot more flyable planes in the future? is there going to be any American or Russian planes available on release?(i realize America didn't official enter the war until 1941, but there was still American planes and Americans flying in china and other places.)

Cowboy10uk
02-28-2011, 10:24 AM
Not Really, Its about the Battle of Britian, How many different aircraft did you think fought in that. As to American Aircraft, umm NO Thanks, Lets just keep it to the aircraft that were involved. Im sure if the time period moces along we will get more aircraft, But Since we are looking at a Battle of Britian sim, then im afraid you are only going to get Battle of Britian Aircraft.

Insuber
02-28-2011, 10:39 AM
Just the beginning, mate, just the beginning ... many more will follow, if the market answer is good.

Skoshi Tiger
02-28-2011, 11:33 AM
We've got the 109 and the Spitfire. In 1940, these are THE two best fighters operational in the world. Then we've got the Hurricane, the work horse of the RAF, and the 110 the only German fighter that could operate over London for a useful time.

German bombers are well represented as are British planes like the Defiant

What others do we need?

Cheers!

JG53Frankyboy
02-28-2011, 11:34 AM
There will be 10 flyable, BoB related planes.
Spitfire
Hurricane
Blenheim
Bf109E
Bf110C
Ju87B
He111
Ju88A
Fiat G.50
Fiat Br.20
plus the SU-26, just for fun

From some of the BoB related ones, there will be variants flyable, so (so far is known now, but nothing official!) it will be 16 plus the SU-26.

Not bad IMHO , compared to the IL2 release or other combatflighsim games.

JG53Frankyboy
02-28-2011, 11:42 AM
And to ad the AI controled ones:
Boulton-Paul Defiant Mk.I
Bristol Beaufighter Mk.IF
Bristol Blenheim Mk.I
Gloster Gladiator Mk.II
Vickers Wellington Mk.IC
Avro Anson Mk.I
Supermarine Walrus Mk.I
Short Sunderland Mk.V
Dornier Do-17Z-1
Dornier Do-17Z-2
Dornier Do-215B-1
FW-200C-1 Condor
He-115B-2
Bf-108B-2 Taifun
FIAT CR. 1942 Falco


realy not a bad planeset to create a BoB scenario.
And hopefuly Maddox will keep these scenario related work

T}{OR
02-28-2011, 11:49 AM
IIRC it takes them about 6 months to do the cockpit and everything else in order to make it flyable in CoD. The only mystery now is the E-4. Apart from that we're getting the full package, I do not know what you expected TBH.

mungee
02-28-2011, 11:55 AM
I find this a very topic interesting.

I must say, I've often wondered the extent to which IL-2 flight sim "pilots" fly various aircraft.

I must tell you, I stick with one aircraft at a time - I find a single aircraft's flying characteristics tough enough to master without jumping from one type of aircraft to another.
That's not to say that I don't fly other aircraft - I do - but when I do, it will be for a relatively long time.
It would perhaps be interesting to run a poll on this.

KOM.Nausicaa
02-28-2011, 11:56 AM
"American and Russian planes".......in the Battle of Britain? IL2CoD offers already more flyable planes than any other BoB sim ever did. 12 planes is pretty much everything of importance that flew in that conflict, and even some more.

Sternjaeger
02-28-2011, 12:11 PM
http://news.j2ponline.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/picard-no-facepalm.jpg

Tree_UK
02-28-2011, 12:16 PM
The Bf109 E4 should of been included IMHO.

Trooper117
02-28-2011, 12:17 PM
His first post and it starts with a whine already.. C'mon.. check the IP someone..lol!

JG4_Helofly
02-28-2011, 01:39 PM
Why is it weak to have "only" 12 aircraft? I think you don't realise that each plane is modeled to the last detail. It's supposed to be a realistic flight simulation and not an arcade air war game with 200+ flyable aircrafts. It's about quality and not quantity.
That's what made games like falcon 4, DCS balckshark, A-10... so great for flight sim enthusiasts. Mastering one complex machine is hard but rewarding and therefore interesting.
I give you this advice: Try COD, and if you feel that it's too boring for you because of the few planes, then buy a console and play ace combat. ;)

White Owl
02-28-2011, 02:40 PM
Honest question, I really don't know the answer: How many flyable planes were in the original IL-2 Sturmovik release in 2001, before any expansions?

Edit: Wiki tells me it was originally 31 planes, but is now 256. So if this game follows even slightly closely to the original's path in the future expansions we'll all be fine, thanks very much.

Avimimus
02-28-2011, 02:48 PM
Cliffs of Dover
13 flyable (with a few more likely after release),
15 AI
?? built in modding potential

Compared to other BoB sims:

WOV
6 flyable (one added by modders after release),
3 gunner controllable only
2 AI

TFH
8 flyable (some with identical cockpits)

So, Cliffs of Dover will have about twice the number of flyable planes as any previous Battle of Britain sims and will have over a dozen AI as a bonus... (plus modding potential).

Seriously, if you want to complain about something pick the lack of a German trainer...

JG53Frankyboy
02-28-2011, 02:50 PM
IL2 in release had not a single flyable bomber beside the IL2 variants...
And were there realy so much flyables..perhaps if you realy count evety variant of one type.

Avimimus
02-28-2011, 04:52 PM
Yes, Il-2 had:
- The Il-2 variants
- The Bf-109F
- FW-190A4 (only guns)
- LaGG-3
- Mig-3
- P-39

I'm not sure about the Yak, La-5FN or Bf-109G (one might have been available from the start)

Anything else?

Geronimo989
02-28-2011, 05:10 PM
I think it is a good number of planes, especially considering how detailed every plane is.
Though I would prefer that the Ju 88 and He 111 were unflyable, while they made a flyable Defiant and Whirlwind. But I guess that the bomber pilots need to be satisfied too, and those planes were more common.

Sven
02-28-2011, 05:47 PM
I think it is a good number of planes, especially considering how detailed every plane is.
Though I would prefer that the Ju 88 and He 111 were unflyable, while they made a flyable Defiant and Whirlwind. But I guess that the bomber pilots need to be satisfied too, and those planes were more common.

Far more common indeed, I can't wait till I fly over London at night, the flak burst around me and dropping my payload on top of the harbors.;)

Chivas
02-28-2011, 06:20 PM
Does anyone else think that only having a dozen flyable planes is pretty weak? epically when the game has been in development for some long.

i hope that there are plans to make alot more flyable planes in the future? is there going to be any American or Russian planes available on release?(i realize America didn't official enter the war until 1941, but there was still American planes and Americans flying in china and other places.)

I think your first post is rather weak. This is the first sim in a series of sims with the new IL-2 engine. The amount of aircraft in the series will probably exceed the huge amount already in the original series. If you knew the sim has been in development for years you should understand the process alittle better. The initial release only includes aircraft in the Battle of Britain. Before you describe a development as weak in your first post you should do your homework.

Jaws2002
02-28-2011, 06:28 PM
First post = a whine. Way to go. :rolleyes:

With the advanced engine modeling, I'm sure three months after release most people still won't be able to corectly fly the four basic fighters in CoD let alone all planes available, but some whine that 12 planes are not enough before the game is even out. .:rolleyes:

Flying Pencil
02-28-2011, 06:40 PM
Does anyone else think that only having a dozen flyable planes is pretty weak? epically when the game has been in development for some long.

i hope that there are plans to make alot more flyable planes in the future? is there going to be any American or Russian planes available on release?(i realize America didn't official enter the war until 1941, but there was still American planes and Americans flying in china and other places.)

Not for the first release, no.

BUT the next release better make the rest of the list (AI aircraft) playable! :evil:

Mr_Steven
02-28-2011, 06:44 PM
Personally I'm incredibly anticipating when this new sim has been more developed and some of the expansions have been released. I can already imagine how glorious P-51's and P-38's will be once they're all mastered by Oleg and crew. However, the Battle of Britain is my favourite theatre of war and this sim is going to be amazing.

Xilon_x
02-28-2011, 06:50 PM
the simulation game CoD regard Battle of brittain story.
and that 'the true list of aircraft used during that period?
I'm Italian and I noticed that the missing CANT1007bis and Caproni C133.
You should see how many planes are missing on the English side and also on Germany side.

The Kraken
02-28-2011, 06:56 PM
The number of planes is in line with comparable sims, the variety is higher due to the flyable bombers and the detail level looks to be much higher. We can discuss the choice of various subtypes or the inclusion of the Su-26, but claiming that there isn't enough content is quite frankly nonsense.

Jaws2002
02-28-2011, 07:15 PM
I can already imagine how glorious P-51's and P-38's will be once they're all mastered by Oleg and crew.


I can already imagine you fumble with the huge list of complicated controls in the p-38.
On full real the new CoD engine will only allow you to use two controls at the time.:mrgreen:

That should be fun to watch..... specially from the cockpit of the fully automated FW190 on your high six.:lol::mrgreen:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/%3CFA%3EJaws/FSX/2009-12-29_0-30-2-216.jpg?


:mrgreen:

Geronimo989
02-28-2011, 07:19 PM
I just installed original IL-2 from 2001 or 2002 on my older computer just to check which planes were available back then. There were IL-2 one and two seater variants, LaGG-3, La-5FN, Yak-1, Yak-3, Yak-9, Bf-109F-2 G-2 and G-6 and FW-190 A-4, all with few variants here and there. I thought that was a good number of planes back then. Guess we all got spoiled by IL-2 1946 having almost all the important planes in ww2.

BigC208
02-28-2011, 09:02 PM
It's the Battle of Britain folks. I would've been happy with just the 4 fighters. The bombers are pure bonus for me. Let the thirld party developers fill in the gaps if there's a market for that.

5 years from now, 5 theatre installments later, we probably will have a planeset like il2 has today.

WTE_Galway
02-28-2011, 09:37 PM
I just installed original IL-2 from 2001 or 2002 on my older computer just to check which planes were available back then. There were IL-2 one and two seater variants, LaGG-3, La-5FN, Yak-1, Yak-3, Yak-9, Bf-109F-2 G-2 and G-6 and FW-190 A-4, all with few variants here and there. I thought that was a good number of planes back then. Guess we all got spoiled by IL-2 1946 having almost all the important planes in ww2.

Yep and not one American or British plane in the list which is what made early IL2 so awesome.

A totally new theater without all those Mustangs and Spitfires which are done to death.

When Northrop Grumman threw a tantrum and effectively stopped the late war American PTO planes being added to IL2 I was almost tempted to send them a telegram congratulating them on services to the cause of good flight simming :D

Xilon_x
02-28-2011, 11:30 PM
in battle of brittain not exist american airplane is normal in this case the game is just direction and respect the just story but i am not sure i think p 51 mustang partecipate to battle of brittain....:confused:

Bangers.n.Mash
03-01-2011, 01:40 AM
12 sounds good too me, lets not forget that these planes will be full of details, something that you'll probably not find in any other game. I'm pretty sure the game will become moddable too, and lets not forget potential expansions !

Only 12 planes? More like 12 planes ? Awsome !

TheGrunch
03-01-2011, 01:43 AM
12 sounds good too me, lets not forget that these planes will be full of details, something that you'll probably not find in any other game. I'm pretty sure the game will become moddable too, and lets not forget potential expansions !

Only 12 planes? More like 12 planes ? Awsome !
+1000, Well said.

IceFire
03-01-2011, 01:57 AM
The aircraft list is pretty much bang on what you'd expect in a Battle of Britain simulator. I do have to repeat this because it's often misunderstood but the Battle of Britain, depending on who you ask, starts in June 1940 and ends at the end of October 1940. Historians will argue slightly over the exact dates where the battle "officially" begins and ends but some people have to realize that this is a very isolated (although pivotal) period in history. It's over a year before the Americans become involved and almost a full year since World War II began.

Thus the planeset for such a scenario is also limited. It's pretty much bang on what Oleg should have done because it keeps things constrained and allowed his team to develop and get used to the tools.

From what I understand there are possibly three teams working for the future of IL-2 and that we *might* be headed for North Africa, Moscow and Korea. But it will take time to produce the necessary numbers of quality aircraft to represent those theaters as well. I'm sure we'll be seeing the return of American aircraft before too long but only where it makes sense historically.

Blackdog_kt
03-01-2011, 01:58 AM
Ok, his first post might not be to our satisfaction, but let's not all jump on the guy. I mean, it's still his first post and there are old timers here often displaying similar or lower posting quality of which most of us have been guilty at one point or another ;)

In answer to the actual question, the following quote sums it up pretty nicely

I just installed original IL-2 from 2001 or 2002 on my older computer just to check which planes were available back then. There were IL-2 one and two seater variants, LaGG-3, La-5FN, Yak-1, Yak-3, Yak-9, Bf-109F-2 G-2 and G-6 and FW-190 A-4, all with few variants here and there. I thought that was a good number of planes back then. Guess we all got spoiled by IL-2 1946 having almost all the important planes in ww2.

That's 8 main types with a few sub-variants each at the release of the first title of the series.

The reason for the emphasis is that the main thing to keep in mind xHeadbanDx is to compare simulators at a similar point during their lifetime.
I can't compare to the amount of aircraft in IL2 1946, because it's the most recent product in a 10 year line of constant development and additions.

If i want to compare to IL2 1946 i'll have to compare a future version of the new sim and i don't have a time machine :-P
So, the only thing left to do for a reasonable comparison is to compare it with other simulators as they were on their first release. In that sense, it's not coming short at all.

Cliffs of Dover will have 12 main types as flyable, a few of which will have more than one variant.
The original IL2 had 8 main types as mentioned above, plus certain variants of these same types.
Other simulators have recently shipped with even less and they still have a dedicated fanbase. RoF for example, i didn't buy it for a variety of reasons but it has an almost religious fanbase and it shipped with just 4 flyable aircraft on release.

I think the main goal for a long series life is not the amount of initial content, but having a solid base to build on for future expandability: a good engine, stable, with not many bugs, etc.

From that point on the next equally important point is that whatever content the developer decides to include, it should be well balanced. For example, it would make no sense to have aircraft of even higher graphical detail to the detriment of very low quality on everything else (it still needs to run on an average PC to ensure sales after all).

This balancing doesn't mean to alter historical references for gameplay balance, but to give the player equal potential in recreating the biggest amount of a conflict's possible aspects. For example, it would make little sense to focus 90% of the content on the allies and only 10% on the axis or vice versa, because it would create a skewed perception of the virtual world the sim is trying to display.
Finally, another thing is to balance the types of different content. It's no good having more aircraft if the rest of the world feels empty, just like it's no good having a ton of ground AI units but only 3-4 aircraft. You just decide on how much stuff a current day PC can run and then divide them roughly equally between player controlled aircraft, AI aircraft and other AI units (tanks, ships, etc), then increase the numbers in future patches and add-ons as our hardware becomes faster.

I hope this helps you better understand why they made the choices they did with this new title :grin:

ptisinge
03-01-2011, 02:03 AM
Geez, like other I had to read the title twice to check that it wasn't a problem with my eyes indeed.
12 planes is great and I actually expected an initial release with less. Some sims come with one plane only.

Also, I'd rather be patient and see additional planes slowly rather than get 50 planes with fantasist models. If we get the Wellington at some point after release, that will be all I'll need for quite a while :)

TheGrunch
03-01-2011, 02:13 AM
If we get the Wellington at some point after release, that will be all I'll need for quite a while :)
I am both pleased and reassured by the amount of Wimpy love on this forum. :D

xHeadbanDx
03-01-2011, 08:04 AM
WOW thnks for all the responses (even the haters).

Considering i dont play any other flight sims i guess i just became accustom to the large selection of planes in Il-2 1946,

i look foward to the release of this game, and to shoot all you newbs out of the sky!

OMG MY SECOND POST!!!

TheGrunch
03-01-2011, 08:22 AM
Haha, just remember that Il-2 1946 version 4.10 is the last in a 10-year-long line of releases on the same engine. Give CoD some time. :)

Kuky
03-01-2011, 10:19 AM
Does anyone else think that only having a dozen flyable planes is pretty weak? epically when the game has been in development for some long)

Not at all :cool:

You don't know what you're talking about here... granted I don't post here much at all but I flew IL-2 Sturmovik from the begining... much better to have high level of simulation with fewer aircraft then too many with so-so level of simulation... and by the way this is for BoB... these are the aircraft that flew in that period and region.

When next sequence comes out you will get more aircraft.

carl
03-01-2011, 10:38 AM
http://news.j2ponline.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/picard-no-facepalm.jpg

lol

Gribbers
03-01-2011, 11:50 AM
12 aircraft is plenty enough...after 10 years of IL2, using the 4.10 patch i rarely fly more than the Bf109, Bf110, Spit, Hurri or Ju87...so what's on offer here is perfect for me.

Can't flippin' wait :-P

ElAurens
03-02-2011, 12:00 AM
When Northrop Grumman threw a tantrum and effectively stopped the late war American PTO planes being added to IL2 I was almost tempted to send them a telegram congratulating them on services to the cause of good flight simming :D

I expected better from you Galway.

Congratulate NG for crippling an entire theatre that is very much liked by a large number of players, not all of whom are from the United States?

How can this be helpful to "good flight simming"?

Your hatred of the United States blinds you to the fact that what NG did was set a precedent that could damage all combat simulation, flight or otherwise.

TheGrunch
03-02-2011, 12:15 AM
Calm down ElAurens, I'm pretty certain he was just jokingly expressing his appreciation for the underrepresented subject matter of the original game. Jokes aside, though, I agree with your sentiment about NG 100%, they're not helping their own reputation, the future of flight simming, or promoting any kind of education about the important role of their previous ventures in the Second World War. It's a lose-lose situation, all for a short-term buck.

WTE_Galway
03-02-2011, 12:25 AM
Calm down ElAurens, I'm pretty certain he was just jokingly expressing his appreciation for the underrepresented subject matter of the original game. Jokes aside, though, I agree with your sentiment about NG 100%, they're not helping their own reputation, the future of flight simming, or promoting any kind of education about the important role of their previous ventures in the Second World War. It's a lose-lose situation, all for a short-term buck.

Actually I was just trying to stir up the original poster who seemed to be complaining about a lack of American Planes in a Battle of Britain simulation were no such planes took part :D

The NG situation was a total farce and the fact that many completed or almost completed US late war aircraft and even some naval ships never made it into the game because of idiotic legal extortion by NG (they basically had no legitimate case but threatened to delay the release of Pacific Fighters with lengthy court action unless they got their way) was quite reprehensible.

TheGrunch
03-02-2011, 12:55 AM
So in essence, pretty much standard business practise for NG. ;)

ElAurens
03-02-2011, 03:09 AM
Thanks Galway.

It's so hard to judge true intent here sometimes.

Such is the nature of text only communication.

Cheers.

xHeadbanDx
03-02-2011, 09:39 AM
No complaints here.

Voyager
03-02-2011, 05:41 PM
Actually I was just trying to stir up the original poster who seemed to be complaining about a lack of American Planes in a Battle of Britain simulation were no such planes took part :D

The NG situation was a total farce and the fact that many completed or almost completed US late war aircraft and even some naval ships never made it into the game because of idiotic legal extortion by NG (they basically had no legitimate case but threatened to delay the release of Pacific Fighters with lengthy court action unless they got their way) was quite reprehensible.

Actually, technically speaking, Martlet MK I's were patrolling the coast of Scotland by August 1940. Granted, they only had the one stage super charger, but if I recall correctly, they were the first American made aircraft to down an Axis aircraft during the war.

In fact, the whole USN/RN dual production thing was why Grumman went to a six gun wing in the first place. The RN wanted an 8-gun wing, the USN wanted 0.50 cal minimum, and the Wildcat just wasn't going to be able to list an 8x0.50 cal armament, so they split the difference, and gave the Brits two guns short, and the USN 14 seconds less fire time. Nobody liked that change.

On the other hand, by the time of the Hellcat, 6x0.50 was quite a decent set of guns, when it had enough ammo for the set.

Hood
03-02-2011, 05:46 PM
... but if I recall correctly, they were the first American made aircraft to down an Axis aircraft during the war.



It was probably the Hawk 75 in France.

JG53Frankyboy
03-02-2011, 06:37 PM
"On 8 October 1939, over Jutland, a Lockheed Hudson became the first RAF aircraft to shoot down a German aircraft"
so far for the RAF ;)

and in total
" 8 September 1939, Hawk 75 from Groupe de Chasse II/4 were credited with shooting down two Luftwaffe Messerschmitt Bf 109Es, the first Allied air victory of World War II on the Western front."

the Martlet was "just" the first US build FIGHTER in UK service that shoot down an enemy...and that was december 1940

yellonet
03-02-2011, 07:46 PM
Each of the aircraft in CoD likely took the same amount of time to create as a dozen (maybe more?) aircraft for IL-2: xx.
So, no, I don't think that 12 flyable aircraft is weak at all.

TheGrunch
03-02-2011, 08:10 PM
I'd love to fly the Martlet in CoD...it's one of the most fun aircraft in Il-2 already. :)

Voyager
03-03-2011, 06:52 AM
"On 8 October 1939, over Jutland, a Lockheed Hudson became the first RAF aircraft to shoot down a German aircraft"
so far for the RAF ;)

and in total
" 8 September 1939, Hawk 75 from Groupe de Chasse II/4 were credited with shooting down two Luftwaffe Messerschmitt Bf 109Es, the first Allied air victory of World War II on the Western front."

the Martlet was "just" the first US build FIGHTER in UK service that shoot down an enemy...and that was december 1940

You're right. I think the deal was that it was the first Navy fighter, but I may be confusing the incident with something else.

I'd love to fly the Martlet in CoD...it's one of the most fun aircraft in Il-2 already. :)

To the best of my knowledge we don't have the Marlet Mk I in Il-2. There seems to be a fair amount of confusion about exactly which supercharger setup the British got the Mk IIs, and III's, but the ones that would be available in the BoB time frame would be the ones with the poor supercharger. Whereas an F4F-3 with the two-speed, two stage supercharger is a match for a 109E-4 at 7.5km+, and superior at 10km, without the second supercharger stage, it is inferior to the 109E at all altitudes.

The closest thing to the Marlets would be the F4F-3A, but I don't think that one is in '46