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mauld
02-10-2011, 09:31 AM
How does this look for a new rig?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/click_online/9386740.stm

JAMF
02-10-2011, 01:01 PM
Cool, but it looks like it uses the rotation of the plane's axes as reference. It doesn't appear to compute the G-forces working on the 'avatar'. If the price is right, it would'n be a bad addition. It's no ForceDynamics 401 though, but that has a different pricetag. :D

Sternjaeger
02-11-2011, 09:55 AM
Cool, but it looks like it uses the rotation of the plane's axes as reference. It doesn't appear to compute the G-forces working on the 'avatar'. If the price is right, it would'n be a bad addition. It's no ForceDynamics 401 though, but that has a different pricetag. :D

..and how are you supposed to "compute the G-Forces" on a simulator? :rolleyes:

BigC208
02-11-2011, 04:06 PM
You can replace g forces (to a certain extend) by pitching up, for +g and pitching down for -g. You have to enclose the device though. It's very convincing as long as the outside picture is in synch with what you're feeling. Level D sim pitches up while you accelerate for takeoff. Once acceleration is done it slowly pitches down again. As you rotate the plane the sim pitches up again. It takes good programming to synch all the motion and physical cues together. If not, you'll get sick fast.

PeterPanPan
02-11-2011, 04:14 PM
..and how are you supposed to "compute the G-Forces" on a simulator? :rolleyes:

BigC208 is right. I was lucky enough to ride in a full motion 747 simulator a while back. The g-forces you 'feel' on take-off and landing are 100% convincing.

PPanPan

JAMF
02-11-2011, 06:39 PM
Indeed. As there is no vertical movement in the motion pit above, it has to use the earth's gravity as the resulting G-force vector.

When for example the aircraft accelerates down the runway, the pit would pitch back to a certain angle, so that the simulated G-force from the acceleration "A" and the earths gravity "G" would combine in the force "F" on the avatar's body. If the acceleration of the aircraft is ~9.8m/s (1g), the pit would pitch back 45 degrees. It's not possible to increase the gravity with a stationary 3-axes motion pit, so no way to get "F" to 1.41g. :) If the aircraft with a tricycle gear were to brake with 2g, the pit would pitch forward 63.4 degrees.

Sternjaeger
02-14-2011, 03:30 PM
I'm afraid you guys are a bit confused about the way G-forces interact with your body..
Pitching or rolling in an average commercial sim (like the Steward platform based ones) won't give you no appreciable simulation of G-forces (only a mere peak at 1.5 G at all), it will just simulate the bank or pitch angle at which you're flying.
The most advanced simulator is the DESDEMONA one, which is a combination of Steward platform plus a centrifugal one, and even if capable of sustained G-forces up to 3G, it's still nothing close to the average G forces you can achieve in an aerobatic plane or high performance aircraft.

info about DESDEMONA http://www.amst-germany.de/publics/desdemona_pub.htm

G-manouvers are because of centrifugal force, so the only effective way to reproduce those is to be in a centrifugal machine (which also doesn't give a full simulation because it doesn't take into account lateral loads, but only "head-to-toe" ones).

swiss
02-14-2011, 03:39 PM
More important than G simulation would be a 360° view, imho.

Sternjaeger
02-14-2011, 04:20 PM
More important than G simulation would be a 360° view, imho.

Swiss, I think G simulation comes first because it's the main fatigue factor for a pilot. A 360 degrees view can be achieved with goggles or screens, there are clever ways around it.
No matter how good your aeroplane is, if you can't withstand G loads you're gonna be more vulnerable. I tell you this from personal experience: 15 minutes of intense aerobatic sessions can easily turn you into a sweatball. The first time I did aerobatics in a Mustang (and I was just a passenger!) I was in shock: it's all so physically intense that the idea of actually concentrating on a dogfight whilst being squeezed at 5.7 Gs is unfathomable unless you have been training hard..

I always think about it when I see our dogfights in the sim, where people keep on merrily pulling Gs for 20 minutes without actually thinking of how they would be exhausted by then... (which reminds me to post this on the "suggestions for Ilya" post!)

swiss
02-14-2011, 04:49 PM
But you cant reproduce 5.7G in a machine which fits in your basement.
You sure could make people vomit though.

So, if I had the choice between these two...

Sternjaeger
02-14-2011, 04:53 PM
But you cant reproduce 5.7G in a machine which fits in your basement.
You sure could make people vomit though.

So, if I had the choice between these two...

hahahaha yeah, imagine a USB vomit-inducer :lol:

JAMF
02-14-2011, 09:32 PM
I'm afraid you guys are a bit confused about the way G-forces interact with your body.. I understand that without vertical motion, one can't simulate variations in G-forces. Even with vertical motion, there's no way to simulate a sustained loading.

Without visual clues, you can trick the body a great deal though. With a short "jolt" at the beginning of a short acceleration and a very gentle deceleration, the mind has the impression the acceleration is continuous. When it's not correctly synced to the images, it could lead to puking your last meal. Or taking motion sickness medicine as a precaution. :grin:

Now, back to a motion device without vertical motion, the only way to give your body some sensation of the G-forces, is to simulate the direction of the force.

JAMF
02-14-2011, 09:47 PM
hahahaha yeah, imagine a USB vomit-inducer :lol:

Ah, that reminds me. There is a device that influences the balance organ in the inner ear, by 3 electrodes behind the ear and low voltage/current between them. The disadvantage was that it doesn't work for everyone. IIRC it was between 1/10 and 1/20 that noticed no balance change.

Would be fun to watch an IMAX roller-coaster ride with those things simulating the motions. That event would require a bucket by every chair. :twisted:

Sternjaeger
02-15-2011, 11:47 AM
that is all good, but the main issue is the physical effects of G Loads on your body which cant be effectively represented..

Example: When you're under 5 Gs, your limbs will feel 5 times heavier than what they are, with a resulting limitation of your moving abilities and blood shifting which, if sustained for too long or increased, can cause tunnel vision and blackouts..

some examples here:


G-stress test gone good
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_Uy6q2Hihc&feature=related

G-stress test gone bad, really bad...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMjjGgRLG8k (G stress test gone bad)

Sternjaeger
02-15-2011, 12:06 PM
..the day we can simulate that, we'll have the most realistic simulation and way less fat fcuks ..erm.. fitter people playing this game hehehe ;)

Richie
02-15-2011, 01:38 PM
Cool, but it looks like it uses the rotation of the plane's axes as reference. It doesn't appear to compute the G-forces working on the 'avatar'. If the price is right, it would'n be a bad addition. It's no ForceDynamics 401 though, but that has a different pricetag. :D

That's fantastic. BUT ....if you were flying IL-2 I think you would get so shaken up that you'd be shot down very easily.

Sternjaeger
02-15-2011, 06:05 PM
That's fantastic. BUT ....if you were flying IL-2 I think you would get so shaken up that you'd be shot down very easily.

that's the very point of the thing Richie: dogfights in IL-2 are an aberration of reality.. most of the dogfights you see are more like a Red Bull Air Race, which is very far from reality..

=WF=RAW
02-16-2011, 02:29 PM
That's fantastic. BUT ....if you were flying IL-2 I think you would get so shaken up that you'd be shot down very easily.

Everyone have his own joy from game. Someone likes numbers of kills, and someone likes thats "shakes".
As for me - if such system will not be too expensive, i'd like to buy one...