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Babi
02-01-2011, 07:58 PM
Hi everybody, first post ever, altought i've been flying IL-2 since 2003 ;)
First of all i want to thank Oleg and co. for the fantastic work in all these years. It's rare to find developers that really care about their communities and support the product.

Now to the topic:
I think i read somewhere that CoD will support mod from the very beginning... well for sure i hope it won't. Now before you blast me into oblivion let me explain:

I personally don't use mod on IL-2 but i think it was good for IL-2 to allow mod at that point because CoD was just around the corner and mods would bring new content and revamped graphics to the sim that otherwise wouldnt make it. They probably gave new life to the game and renewed the interest of many people for it.

For CoD however, being a brand new game, i don't think it needs tweaking like for il-2. I also fear this may have negative effects:

1) split the online community with modded and unmodded servers

2)Oleg said CoD will be the first of a new serie of sim (just like il-2, fb, ace, pf..). Now if some of the content of future games (map, object, plane, whatever) is already available as mods, i dont think many people would buy them, and this could affect negatively the support of the game by the developers.

thoughts?

mazex
02-01-2011, 08:21 PM
Hi everybody, first post ever, altought i've been flying IL-2 since 2003 ;)
First of all i want to thank Oleg and co. for the fantastic work in all these years. It's rare to find developers that really care about their communities and support the product.

Now to the topic:
I think i read somewhere that CoD will support mod from the very beginning... well for sure i hope it won't. Now before you blast me into oblivion let me explain:

I personally don't use mod on IL-2 but i think it was good for IL-2 to allow mod at that point because CoD was just around the corner and mods would bring new content and revamped graphics to the sim that otherwise wouldnt make it. They probably gave new life to the game and renewed the interest of many people for it.

For CoD however, being a brand new game, i don't think it needs tweaking like for il-2. I also fear this may have negative effects:

1) split the online community with modded and unmodded servers

2)Oleg said CoD will be the first of a new serie of sim (just like il-2, fb, ace, pf..). Now if some of the content of future games (map, object, plane, whatever) is already available as mods, i dont think many people would buy them, and this could affect negatively the support of the game by the developers.

thoughts?

Welcome! Your thoughts are naturally justified! I think that an important thing is that Oleg has said is that we will only be able to make small "online" maps ourselves so new theaters will only be available through official add-ons (which sounds fair). Therefore I'm rather sure that we will buy them? As long as it's not the basic game files that are modded as it is now so that we only get new planes and other vehicles (?) that can be used in online maps I'm fine with it.

I hope that the community will not be that much split as we will all run the same base game? I also hope that the servers with mods will have some functionality to make the server decide which user created planes are allowed so that the client can never do anything about that...

Even now there is a rather even split between modded and vanilla server, but the more features that Daidalos add - the less attractive the modded servers get...

Krt_Bong
02-01-2011, 08:41 PM
Mods to add Objects and Maps and possibly even Vehicles is great, the game will have a locked/unlocked mode IIRC but leave the Aircraft to the developer, the community has always disagreed on everything so I would rather see them do it, they seem to listen to the community as a whole and as long as documentation exists we will probably get whatever they can make eventually. This way we won't have people making the same thing but interpreting it differently. I don't trust people to not put their own version of a thing in with over the top weapon or engine model in while not allowing for another because it suits them.

JVM
02-01-2011, 09:33 PM
...but leave the Aircraft to the developer, the community has always disagreed on everything so I would rather see them do it, .... I don't trust people to not put their own version of a thing in with over the top weapon or engine model in while not allowing for another because it suits them.

Oleg said it would be possible to add airplanes...I understand your concern but do not underestimate the ability of some people to make as good a job - or sometimes better - as what a pro would do...usually it just takes more time, and that's fine....and also the complexity of the model for Bob will be by itself the real differentiator: the people able to go to the end of a new airplane development will most certainly do it right!
I believe Oleg also said that if the quality is on par with what his team can output it may be possible to integrate the model in the basic game...

JVM

Babi
02-01-2011, 10:39 PM
the people able to go to the end of a new airplane development will most certainly do it right!


Your faith in human beings is admirable :grin: i have no doubt that there will be people who can understand all the parameters necessary to model a new plane, but having the data and the will to model it correctly is another matter ;)

I'm with Krt_bong on this one, online maps and land objects are most welcomed , but i hope planes remain an exclusive of the development team.
However i fully support the inclusion of 3rd party plane that have to get trought Oleg's approval, I think we already have quite many of them in il-2, and they are top quality.

Zorin
02-01-2011, 11:06 PM
Your faith in human beings is admirable :grin: i have no doubt that there will be people who can understand all the parameters necessary to model a new plane, but having the data and the will to model it correctly is another matter ;)

I'm with Krt_bong on this one, online maps and land objects are most welcomed , but i hope planes remain an exclusive of the development team.
However i fully support the inclusion of 3rd party plane that have to get trought Oleg's approval, I think we already have quite many of them in il-2, and they are top quality.

I'm with you on this, partially. My believe is that the community will be best of to collect money and hire 3rd party freelancers to build the planes they are looking for to have in game and that 1C won't consider, for whatever reason. The freelancers are good at their job as it is their profession, so we and Oleg only get top quality. A win win for all.

Of course, 1C must realize that they need to have a number of their guys on standby to get these contributions into the game asap. Cause if we collect like 3000$ to have a B-17 build 100% to 1Cs specs, I am not going to wait a year or so for its implementation.

The Kraken
02-01-2011, 11:16 PM
One of the biggest problems with 3rd party developments for Il2 was that only Maddox Games could put the model into the engine, so many issues and errors could only be discovered by them. Apparently this caused lots of delays and additional work for both sides. We don't know yet how open CoD will be, but ideally people should be able to fine-tune their models themselves and check them in the game.

I can imagine that any 3rd party tools/APIs have rather low priority at the moment, so I don't expect to that with the release already.

nearmiss
02-01-2011, 11:17 PM
Oleg will either produce or authenticate aircraft for BOB COD.

The ONLINE game is dependent up authentication by someone like the developer only.

Otherwise, the online game will be like the ZONE. A collaboration of insanity.

JVM
02-01-2011, 11:24 PM
My faith in human beings is not that high, and I am not naïve either (not always) but maybe I did not express myself clearly: I wanted to say that I guy able and willing to undertake such a development, will do it right and due to the complexity and the time it will take, such people will not be many, but there will be some.

Oleg already stated he wanted to create an environment a la FSX, and some of the absolute best FSX models are from amateur origin.

I know for a fact from the various domains I know well enough especially related to aviation that here is absolutely no difference in terms of best quality between amateur and pro, except the time it takes for completion.

It can even (as a matter of fact, often) be an advantage as the amateur is not constrained by trivial matters like being paid for his modelling work for a living for instance, and so can look into levels of detail/documentation/whatever no pro will ever has the time to spare for...

Oleg's team is a good example: there are tons of documentation they could never have been able to collect/find if some amateurs had not done it for them; another example are the skins delivered with the game, which are good enough, but not spectacularly so...No time!

So I would not belittle what an amateur can do compared to a pro, because that would not be justified. On this point I have faith!

And do not forget that for general inclusion, any work will have to go across Oleg's team scrutiny...so no worries there!

JV

highness
02-02-2011, 12:04 AM
i think it would be good if there would be an SDK for il2 CoD

look at how far lives Armed Assault II game with a constant supply of new user/third party made content.. and some of them did do a really great job (ie: Lingor island and many others).. and i still play it!

my thought is that modding and third party made content is the what makes a game live

even closed games ends up being modded anyways! (ie : GTA IV )

David603
02-02-2011, 09:19 AM
If I correctly understand what Oleg and Luthier have said regarding Modding/3rd Party development, there will be third party tools freely available at some point after launch, allowing people to make and import to the sim items such as aircraft, ships, vehicles (drivable or not), ground objects and of course maps (albeit with a size restriction).

So, if you have the time and skill to build something, you will be able to put it into the sim, test it, and if you wish make it available to download. I have no idea how the system works if you want to sell your work, but that should be covered in the license agreement for the dev kit.

Online servers will however have an option to allow all mods/3rd party work, or to allow only those submitted to 1c for quality and accuracy checks. Presumably there will also be a compatibility system where the host of a server can specify which mods are needed to join a server, and when someone joins they will have their mods automatically enabled or disabled to suit the server.

T}{OR
02-02-2011, 09:28 AM
It has been shown on countless occasions that people can not be trusted - mods create anarchy in MP. They are great or even amazing for offline games (e.g. Silent Hunter series) but have no place in MP like IL2. Even modpacks force people to have the same content and download stuff they don't want in the first place which on the long run turns into unwanted hassle or as someone put it "a part time job".

Days when you could pop into any server, pick any plane and just take off in IL2 are long gone.

...

Online servers will however have an option to allow all mods/3rd party work, or to allow only those submitted to 1c for quality and accuracy checks. Presumably there will also be a compatibility system where the host of a server can specify which mods are needed to join a server, and when someone joins they will have their mods automatically enabled or disabled to suit the server.

That is how I understood it as well. Servers will have an option either to lock out the added planes, ships, vehicles etc. and only allow stock/approved content which is great. Not sure about the freely available tools though. I am interested in seeing when they release them - two weeks, months or years after the release. :)

JG53Frankyboy
02-02-2011, 09:38 AM
and to ad about the SDK tools, at least as Oleg said in the past, these 3.Party aircraft can only included in the game with a limited FM (and perhaps DM) calculation.
So, full FM calculation is still in the hands of 1C - and if a 3.paty aircraft will be added to the 'closed' game (means switch "no mods" enabled!) it will get the full FM.

a pure guess from me is that 1C will sell a licence for 3.party developerd like accusim ( http://www.a2asimulations.com/accusim.html ) , that they can make adons with full FM and mapsize and are able to sell their work. If this content than would be mods "on" or "off"..... good question.
At least Oleg said in the past that he would like to see that 3.Party developers, that are working for M$ Simulators for example , would also work, even swtich ;) , to his CoD engine :)

time will tell !!

Babi
02-02-2011, 10:15 AM
My faith in human beings is not that high, and I am not naïve either (not always) but maybe I did not express myself clearly: I wanted to say that I guy able and willing to undertake such a development, will do it right and due to the complexity and the time it will take, such people will not be many, but there will be some.

Oleg already stated he wanted to create an environment a la FSX, and some of the absolute best FSX models are from amateur origin.

I know for a fact from the various domains I know well enough especially related to aviation that here is absolutely no difference in terms of best quality between amateur and pro, except the time it takes for completion.

It can even (as a matter of fact, often) be an advantage as the amateur is not constrained by trivial matters like being paid for his modelling work for a living for instance, and so can look into levels of detail/documentation/whatever no pro will ever has the time to spare for...

Oleg's team is a good example: there are tons of documentation they could never have been able to collect/find if some amateurs had not done it for them; another example are the skins delivered with the game, which are good enough, but not spectacularly so...No time!

So I would not belittle what an amateur can do compared to a pro, because that would not be justified. On this point I have faith!

And do not forget that for general inclusion, any work will have to go across Oleg's team scrutiny...so no worries there!

JV

Ok i see your point and i agree that amateurs can make planes to the same quality - or sometimes even better - than professional developers. Altought FM and plane performance has always been a debated issue that many disagree upon.

Anyway, when CoD comes out it will only have a dozen of flyables, it will maybe take time for people to understand the dynamics behind the creation of a new plane model, FM and DM, but after that you will have people working to implement in the game new plane starting from the most popular ones (FW190, late 109, p51, p47 etc...); mind you, these people will work only part time but i'm sure they'll outnumber oleg's team (small teams focusing on 1 aircraft at a time) and many planes will be ready before they can be included in expansions. Add to that small online maps and objects to recreate various theatres... Now the only people who are gonna be interested in future expansion will be those into single player and historical campaigns (ops! if those haven't been created yet..)

I mean isn't Oleg creating it's own competition in this way? However if that means we users are going to benefit from this competition between modders and developers, that might actually be a good thing :-) time will tell i guess

Avimimus
02-02-2011, 03:27 PM
Oleg's teams should probably announce tentative lists of prohibited or discouraged mod subjects (so as to prevent modders getting there first).

nearmiss
02-02-2011, 03:50 PM
Oleg's teams should probably announce tentative lists of prohibited or discouraged mod subjects (so as to prevent modders getting there first).

That is already done.

Any and all discussion of mods relating to Il2 is prohibited on this forums.

Since there has been some comments by the developer about community modifications applied to BOB COD this thread has survived.

Already several postings have been deleted that point to IL2. That cannot be the case in this thread. There is only one authorized developer of IL2 mods TD.

The content of this thread may have worthy commentary relating only to COD. Crossing the line will get the thread deleted.