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Avimimus
01-13-2011, 05:42 PM
I'll buy the Russian version and then patch the GUI/Missions to English ;)

Problem solved guys!

Hecke
01-13-2011, 05:47 PM
Are you sure this will be possible?
If yes, then I will do this too.

Qpassa
01-13-2011, 05:52 PM
Thats absurd. If you just need it for active I see it positive, less "pirates" and Oleg would have more money for development

Hecke
01-13-2011, 05:55 PM
True, but what if you have to go online every time you launch the game?
Maybe it needs activation at every launch.

Bricks
01-13-2011, 06:00 PM
True, but what if you have to go online every time you launch the game?
Maybe it needs activation at every launch.

It was already stated that this wouldn't happen. And if that isn't enough, the cover says you only need internet for the activation of the game. That's pretty fine with me.

Sven
01-13-2011, 06:04 PM
I don't like ' If ' threads, but this is indeed not what is stated on the lately discovered boxart, like Qpassa said.

Letum
01-13-2011, 06:29 PM
It was already stated that this wouldn't happen. And if that isn't enough, the cover says you only need internet for the activation of the game. That's pretty fine with me.

"activation" could mean when you activate the installer.
It could also mean every time you activate the game.

We don't know (and speculation is pointless right now).

ElAurens
01-13-2011, 06:44 PM
In a post over at the UBI ZOO there was an apparent leak of info on the German UBI forum.

Activation on line one time only.

Expect an official announcement next week.

nearmiss
01-13-2011, 06:44 PM
"activation" could mean when you activate the installer.
It could also mean every time you activate the game.

We don't know (and speculation is pointless right now).

Microsoft and other softwares that have the activation on install are just what they say they are.

If activation over the web was required for each login, that would drive them nuts on their servers. It that were the case they would just put the hooks in to make it a semi-online game. I think that is where MSFT is headed with their so-called improvement to FSX called "Flight".

MSFT thinks they have found a way to exploit what the 3rd party devs have been doing for free for 10+ years. MSFT is going to lock in the code, and sell the stuff.

TUSA/TX-Gunslinger
01-13-2011, 06:46 PM
I'll just be extremely thankful to have the content.

I could care less about the DRM scheme. Hopefully it's robust and completely protects the content.

These DRM posts are so old and archaic. No one of any significance listens to them.

We all need the content protected as much as possible. From my perpective as a user - it's in my own best interest to keep the development dollars going to the creator and to keep the simulation intact from tampering.

S!

Gunny

ElAurens
01-13-2011, 06:52 PM
Spot on Gunny.

See you over the Channel sir.

S!

Bricks
01-13-2011, 07:03 PM
"activation" could mean when you activate the installer.
It could also mean every time you activate the game.

We don't know (and speculation is pointless right now).


No it can't.

If it needs internet to play, there has to be a label for it.

Like this:
http://www.wingsofhonour.com/riseofflight/img_riseofflight_pc-box-cover-2009_ROF_US_Box_800x1123x24b.jpg

As opposed to this:
http://alpha.static.chicago.eigsolutions.com/gamerslifeline.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Rise_of_Flight_Iron_Cross_Box_800pix.jpg

Letum
01-13-2011, 07:15 PM
How can you tell if "internet connection required to activate" means "internet connection required to activate every time you play" or "internet connection required to activate every time you install"?

...because I can't tell!

addman
01-13-2011, 07:24 PM
I'll just be extremely thankful to have the content.

I could care less about the DRM scheme. Hopefully it's robust and completely protects the content.

These DRM posts are so old and archaic. No one of any significance listens to them.

We all need the content protected as much as possible. From my perpective as a user - it's in my own best interest to keep the development dollars going to the creator and to keep the simulation intact from tampering.

S!

Gunny

Couldn't have said it better myself.

KaHzModAn
01-13-2011, 07:29 PM
Because, the word "activation" says once you done it, your game is "activated"
And unless you desactivate it by uninstalling it, it stays "activated" !!

what is wrong with you guys ? have you ever heard of a game that activates itself on each launch ?
it's not called activation in this case but authentication/login in...

activation means you register an account with a CD key or something of the like...

Plus that guy from german ubi forum said it was a one time connection required !

Sven
01-13-2011, 07:32 PM
Because, the word "activation" says once you done it, your game is "activated"
And unless you desactivate it by uninstalling it, it stays "activated" !!

what is wrong with you guys ? have you ever heard of a game that activates itself on each launch ?
it's not called activation in this case but authentication/login in...

activation means you register an account with a CD key or something of the like...

Plus that guy from german ubi forum said it was a one time connection required !

Sounds very good to me!

fireflyerz
01-13-2011, 07:39 PM
Thats absurd. If you just need it for active I see it positive, less "pirates" and Oleg would have more money for development


How you gonna stop 70 thousand pirates :confused:

Sven
01-13-2011, 07:54 PM
How you gonna stop 70 thousand pirates :confused:

It will always work better than without any sort of protection... so far I think RoF has been quite succesful on their strategy to counter pirates, and they're still improving it, making it for the fair customer easy to play offline.

yellonet
01-13-2011, 07:57 PM
I'll just be extremely thankful to have the content.So will I but that doesn't mean I don't care what else the publisher or developer has decided that I must install to play the game that I've paid money to play.

I could care less about the DRM scheme. Hopefully it's robust and completely protects the content.

These DRM posts are so old and archaic. No one of any significance listens to them.People of significance... who are they? If you're talking about the publishers or developers, then of course they're not listening, they're the one's that wants to decide how we are able to use the product that we paid for.

We all need the content protected as much as possible. From my perpective as a user - it's in my own best interest to keep the development dollars going to the creator and to keep the simulation intact from tampering.You are wrong. DRM is never created or used for the benefit of the user. DRM's sole purpose is to enforce how the product - that you paid for - can be used by you.
It's also highly doubtful if DRM has any effect on piracy.
That DRM is for you is just what the creators of DRM wants you to think.
People that just download a cracked game are not very likely to pay for that game even if they couldn't get it cracked anyway, so there's probably very little gain there.

Saying that DRM is for the users best is just the same thing as when the politicians say that taking away our civil rights and freedoms are for our own protection against terrorists.

No, to me, DRM will always be the thorn in the side of people that actually pay, we're the ones being subjected to unwanted software. Anyone who downloads the cracked version is likely to being spared the DRM software.

yellonet
01-13-2011, 08:03 PM
Thats absurd. If you just need it for active I see it positive, less "pirates" and Oleg would have more money for development
How is less pirates equal to more money for Oleg?
That's really over-simplifying the situation.
It's not like everyone that uses pirated software would start paying for said software if it was the only way to get it.
Most "pirates" just wouldn't bother with the game at all unless they could get it for free.
So from the developers and publishers side there's nothing lost, nothing gained, unless you count the loads of free marketing.

Avimimus
01-13-2011, 08:17 PM
Guys,

I lost a computer to a very invasive Sony DRM scheme (the computer was a labtop without an internet connection and with a legit operating system - Sony was trying to install a rootkit when the system rebooted and corrupted a number of OS files).

The problem is that these people don't tell us what they're doing and they can actually use these schemes to bypass copyright (at least the part where copyrighted items enter the public domain after a sufficient amount of time).

I just meant that there is the choice of DRM schemes (assuming the GUI is open enough for a language patch), thanks to the fact that there will be at least two distributors.

Trumper
01-13-2011, 08:26 PM
Will DRM stop pirates - -yes or no

Hecke
01-13-2011, 08:29 PM
Will DRM stop pirates - -yes or no

No, but it prevents customers from buying the games.

--> less income for publisher and developer

Chivas
01-13-2011, 08:37 PM
I'll just be extremely thankful to have the content.

I could care less about the DRM scheme. Hopefully it's robust and completely protects the content.

These DRM posts are so old and archaic. No one of any significance listens to them.

We all need the content protected as much as possible. From my perpective as a user - it's in my own best interest to keep the development dollars going to the creator and to keep the simulation intact from tampering.

S!

Gunny

+1

The Kraken
01-13-2011, 08:50 PM
These DRM posts are so old and archaic. No one of any significance listens to them.

Doug: What are your current thoughts on CP and DRM?

Oleg: I dislike any copy protection, but that’s up to the publisher to decide. In general, it’s a very complex question, and to properly address all the issues I’d probably need at least as much space as the rest of this interview.

Doug: What do you think about having players connect to the Internet 100% of the time as they are playing?

Oleg: I am not a big fan of these things. Many players, especially in less developed parts of the world, still to this day play only single-player and barely use the Internet even if they have Internet access at all.

http://www.simhq.com/_air11/air_341d.html

Blackdog_kt
01-13-2011, 09:09 PM
I think that ANY kind of copy protection is only delaying the inevitable: if a game is popular enough, it will get cracked sooner or later. Even if not all features are working, most of the functionality will be there.

So, why bother with copy protection?

The smart answer: To delay the pirates. They can't be stopped if they set their sights on a title, what matters is not having the game pirated and circulating on torrents an entire week before its released, so the developers can recoup their investment during the initial release and subsequent marketing campaigns/buying spree.

As time goes by and sales slow down (after a few months, a year or whatever, they know how much they sell after all), copy protection is of almost no benefit: the impulse buyers have already bought it, those who wanted it for free but cared enough about playing it have bought it as well and those who only want stuff for free will still not buy it and totally skip playing it. At this point in time, it makes sense for a company to come up and say "thanks for your response our loyal fans, we will now strip this title of DRM and let you enjoy it in a hassle free manner". This is what bohemia interactive does with the ArmA series and it works well for them.

The stupid answer: To control how you play the game you paid for while the pirate plays it for free and without any such restrictions. Also, to prevent you from reselling it to someone else or giving it away as a gift. This is generally considered a bad move and history has shown it, since

a) It pisses off a fair portion of the legitimate would-be buyers who will wait until it drops in price, never buy it or it gets cracked before they buy it, meaning a lot less money for the developers. Waiting for a crack to play a game you actually bought because it works better than the original, anyone get the irony in this? It's like pirates actually help sales in this way lol.

b) It also presents a challenge to the pirates, they will do their best to crack it and with so many rival pirate groups competing for bragging rights, it's easy to know what the end result will be.

The only constants in this situation are that:
1) Every high profile title gets cracked sooner or later. Ubisoft's Assassin's Creed 2 and Silent Hunter 5 and EA's Spore before that are prime examples. Why you may ask? Well, because they spent a load of money developing the DRM for these titles and they were cracked before the games even hit the shelves, leading both companies to abandon their so called foolproof DRM implementations. Neither EA nor Ubi use a system similar to Spore or SH5 anymore in their new titles because of this.

2) Not every pirated copy equals a lost sale and not every prevented pirated copy equals a gained sale. There are people of a certain entitlement mentality that WILL NEVER BUY anything. Instead of trying to win over the unwinables, why not focus on not alienating the ones who are loyal and willing to spend?

The fact that RoF isn't cracked has nothing to do with its DRM being effective. It's just that pirates don't know or don't care about it enough to do it. Ubi on the other hand used a similar system in an equally niche title (a simulator and on top of that, submarines? who would want to crack that?) that probably wouldn't attract their attention. But you see, then they went and made a whole fuss about how their system was perfect and fool-proof, issuing a more or less direct challenge to the pirate groups. Result? Ubi's new DRM was cracked within a week and their authentication servers collapsed under DDOS attacks during the weekends when people wanted to play the most, leaving Ubi with a bunch of unsatisfied customers.

I'm not saying copy protection is unecessary. However, most of what we've been seeing the last few years is not geared to combating piracy as much as it is geared to killing the second hand market, which actually makes it pretty ineffective at preventing piracy in the end. If the focus is different, the results will be as well, that's all there is to it.

If you want people to buy a game you need a compromise between security and ease of use, accompanied by a fair attitude towards your loyal buyers, it's as simple as that. Put the cards on the table and say "i'll try to make this game a bitch to pirate and you as loyal customers will unfortunately have to suffer a bit from possible glitches and bugs, but after 8 months i'm going to disable these features to reward you for supporting me", accompany this with some competent tech support to work out the issues that will crop up and you'll do way better than sticking your nose up to the people that actually fund your business.

Sometimes it's like the publishers spite the buyers because they can't harm the pirates and they have to vent this frustration somewhere. We all do similar stuff in real life and in our relationships with other people from time to time, but this is no way to run a business and ensure its longevity. After all, we all know from real life that we'll swallow our pride much more often when it's about work issues than other ones. This is elementary market behavior and i can't believe how all the people in the financial/accounting departments of the big publishing companies with their university degrees failed to see that.

The thing is however, that the compromise is silently happening and the funny thing is that it took them massive financial losses to realize what they need to do. Companies still use copy protection but they are gradually moving towards methods that don't inconvenience the legitimate buyer as much as previous systems. Just like DRM started in the music industry and spread to gaming, it also started dying first in the music industry and now gaming benefits from it too.

As a final note, a one-time online activation is a perfectly fine method of copy protection for SoW and it's actually the only kind of DRM/online protection that i condone. Just like i said before about Starcraft 2, as long as i can play whenever i want, however i want, i don't mind at all.

FlyingShark
01-13-2011, 09:16 PM
The question is also: how many times per user will we be able to activate the sim? Like some other sims and games where you get only a limited number of activations. If activations are limited, they can stick it for me.

~S~

Hecke
01-13-2011, 09:21 PM
With a one-time-online activation I would be more than happy.

GHarris
01-13-2011, 10:08 PM
I strongly disagree with Gunslinger's view.

I have been looking forward to this new sim a LOT. For years. In spite of that, if there is much DRM to speak of when the sim gets released I will not buy it. I won't pirate it either - I'm not one of those "have your cake and eat it" types. I would boycott a sim that I have been anticipating more than any PC game released for years. Because DRM is wrong, that's my view, as simply as that. It doesn't work, it inherently cannot work. Give up on trying to stop the people who never pay for games from never paying for games (a radical concept, to be sure), and quit alienating the people who, for the moment, still respect you and will pay you for your work. "You" being publisher and developer combined - I don't care if the DRM was implemented by the publisher against the developer's wishes because I have no way of making that clear in a way that counts... I can't pay the developer without paying the publisher (I would often very much like to, though! ;)). I think that if a publisher says they are going to put DRM on a game the developer should look for another publisher. Publisher-imposed DRM is detrimental to their interests, in both the short and long term. DRM doesn't improve sales, leads to boycotts (among angry internet-folk at least :-P) and it turns hearts and minds against you so that a person who was enthusiatic about your work before is less so in the future.

I think I must be tired, the above paragraph is pretty "foaming at the mouth". Ah well, I stand by it.

Abbeville-Boy
01-13-2011, 10:18 PM
i hope for the game to be protected for a long time
i will buy no matter the protection type
they need to be rewarded with sales
for to give reason to go on in the future

yellonet
01-13-2011, 10:22 PM
I strongly disagree with Gunslinger's view.

I have been looking forward to this new sim a LOT. For years. In spite of that, if there is much DRM to speak of when the sim gets released I will not buy it. I won't pirate it either - I'm not one of those "have your cake and eat it" types. I would boycott a sim that I have been anticipating more than any PC game released for years. Because DRM is wrong, that's my view, as simply as that. It doesn't work, it inherently cannot work. Give up on trying to stop the people who never pay for games from never paying for games (a radical concept, to be sure), and quit alienating the people who, for the moment, still respect you and will pay you for your work. "You" being publisher and developer combined - I don't care if the DRM was implemented by the publisher against the developer's wishes because I have no way of making that clear in a way that counts... I can't pay the developer without paying the publisher (I would often very much like to, though! ;)). I think that if a publisher says they are going to put DRM on a game the developer should look for another publisher. Publisher-imposed DRM is detrimental to their interests, in both the short and long term. DRM doesn't improve sales, leads to boycotts (among angry internet-folk at least :-P) and it turns hearts and minds against you so that a person who was enthusiatic about your work before is less so in the future.

I think I must be tired, the above paragraph is pretty "foaming at the mouth". Ah well, I stand by it.

Foam or no foam, it's still true and has to be told.

WTE_Galway
01-13-2011, 11:15 PM
Even online activation will prevent me from buying it as my games machine is offline. I have FSX and have not played it in 3 years because it needs reactivating (and FSX has a phone activate alternative).

I would need to install it on my work PC just to get it going :D

leggit
01-13-2011, 11:35 PM
this is the 21st century....if your using a machine without internet access you really should rethink your setup....i have to agree regarding this whole copyright protection arguement its old and out of date....the FACTS are that studios are turning away from the pc platform because of the constant problem of piracy...suck it up people if you want quality games for your pc in the future its got to have some sort of DRM...you can't have your cake and eat it anymore.

WTE_Galway
01-14-2011, 12:12 AM
this is the 21st century....if your using a machine without internet access you really should rethink your setup....i have to agree regarding this whole copyright protection arguement its old and out of date....the FACTS are that studios are turning away from the pc platform because of the constant problem of piracy...suck it up people if you want quality games for your pc in the future its got to have some sort of DRM...you can't have your cake and eat it anymore.

I do not have a television either. Nor do I own a GPS or a blackberry/iphone or a laptop. No internet at home of any type. No cable TV. No landline phone either just a 6 year old cell I occasionally turn on.

I do live in the colonies of course. :D

Meanwhile at work I am a system/network administrator for a research company with over 100 staff. Can't avoid the tech there, just try not to take it home.

Really depends if you are aiming for the "online furball air-halo crowd" (who obviously must be online) or the more traditional historically oriented player base I suppose. Seems to me a lot of people interested in historical aviation and WWII simulations are actually a bit anti-hitech.

Avimimus
01-14-2011, 12:13 AM
Bless Oleg for knowing how hard (or impossible) it is to get internet connections in many parts of the world. In the majority of my country you can only get dial-up and there are many areas where no service is available. There are also a lot of people who can't afford a high-speed connection (even if they can afford the game and a joystick).

MikkOwl
01-14-2011, 02:24 AM
The UBI titles that had 'constant internet connection required' had that disclaimer on the boxes. This one instead is the same that SteamWorks titles use.

I read an article some weeks ago stating that UBI would withdraw their 'constant internet connection required'.

UBI publishes all(?) their games on Steam. Some of them are exclusive, such as R.U.S.E. from September 2010.

Put these infobits together and you get big arrows pointing to SoW using Steam as delivery platform. Can buy it on DVD or through Steam. Have to activate it with Steam once regardless. Patched through Steam. Multiplayer (probably) through Steam.

Steam is tolerable because it does permit playing without needing to be online. The inability to resell the product is an agreeable tradeoff from them permanently storing & delivering the game to you online whenever you want.

Blackdog_kt
01-14-2011, 03:59 AM
this is the 21st century....if your using a machine without internet access you really should rethink your setup....i have to agree regarding this whole copyright protection arguement its old and out of date....the FACTS are that studios are turning away from the pc platform because of the constant problem of piracy...suck it up people if you want quality games for your pc in the future its got to have some sort of DRM...you can't have your cake and eat it anymore.

Well, i agree with some sort of DRM. What i don't agree with is "i'll take any kind of DRM they throw at me". Nope, not gonna happen. If i can't play a game due to factors outside my direct control i won't support it, or at least i'll wait until it drops in price first.

And for clarification's sake, a problem within my direct control is a drivers problem or a busted graphics card. I can work to repair such a software issue or save some money, go out and buy a new GPU.

However, i can't do jack about a road construction crew accidentally cutting a bunch of fiber optic cables midway between where i live and the country's capital (where incidentally, the main hub to connections in other countries for all local ISPs happens to be).

This is not within my control and as such, it's not fit to have something that depends on it as part of the system requirements. If it is part of them, i refuse to support such a title at its initial asking price or completely.

And before someone says i got a wild imagination, this exact thing happened a couple of years ago and i was stuck with a DSL line that dropped the moment my router requested the slightest amount of traffic. Sorry, but i wouldn't pay for a car i can't drive whenever there's a storm half way across the globe, so i won't do something similar for a game either.

The encouraging bit for me is that Ubi's in-house DRM already failed and mr. Maddox himself has said he's not partial to such solutions.

I've never used Steam and i'm getting mixed opinions and reviews about it from different people. To be honest i'd prefer they have their own infrastructure just for activations and maybe an integrated multiplayer server browser, with the rest of the network traffic being exchanged between the users to keep bandwidth costs down. All the server browser would need to do is tell your installation that it needs to "talk" to a certain server/host/IP, then your PC would communicate directly with that IP address.
As long as the rest of the game runs locally on our PCs without a constant connection requirement the traffic would be cheap enough to manage for someone like Ubi, but since they went "all or nothing" on their previous DRM that flopped so badly maybe they can't afford it anyway :-P

The ideal process for me would be something like this:
1) Go to the game's website and create an account.

2) While the sim is installing log into the website's members area with this account, go to your profile, click on "bind your account to your product key" or something similar and input the product key found in your DVD box. This tells the service that your account corresponds to the owner of a legally purchased copy.

3) Use this verified account to log into the game in order to "unlock" your installation and you're done, but ONLY the first time a fresh installation of the game is being executed.

4) Allow unlimited installs/uninstalls. This way i can grab the DVD box, my TrackIR and my stick, go to a friend's house while we're having a LAN party, install it on his PC, log in with my account to activate it and do some free advertising for the game. But how will this stop me and my friend from "sharing" one key so we can both play the game? See next point.

5) Whenever i'm connected to the internet the game communicates with the authentication servers in random intervals. It could be once a week, once a month or even every single time, whatever, but it ONLY happens when i'm ALREADY connected to the internet. If i'm not if won't ask me to.
So, if i am online and it detects that the same key is used more than once simultaneously, both players get an "multiple log-ins detected" message and they need to reactivate. I can, since i know my account details, my friend can't since he doesn't. If he likes the game that bad, he's gonna have to buy it ;)

6) Want to take this one step further? Allow customized "client" installations without any activation required. What for? So we can fly in multi-crew with people who don't have the game yet. Restrictions for such an installation would be
a) unable to fly any single player missions (apart from 1-2 sample missions or certain QMB scenarios, hey, presto, we got a demo this way)
b) unable to host multiplayer sessions
c) able to join a multiplayer session hosted by a player with a fully activated installation, or a dedicated server
d) once joining a multiplayer session, unable to act as the only human player in the aircraft (so, no piloting single seaters for you if you don't buy the game, actually, no piloting bombers either if you don't have a registered fellow in the same airplane)
e) able to join in with a player who has an activated installation into the same aircraft, either as pilot/copilot or as a bomb aimer/gunner.

This way i could install "client" installations on all my friends' PCs and give the game some extra exposure, without enabling them to play it for free. It would just get them interested in it and they might buy it.
Out of about 10 people i regularly game with there are 4-5 that have an interest in WWII history, one i already managed to get into flying IL2 with me (he was into falcon 4.0 back in the day) but the rest think sims are "too difficult/time consuming". That's where the Tiger Moth and the multi-crew feature comes in, teaching them to fly. Sooner or later, i might be able to convince an extra two guys to buy a cheap stick and the game.

See, there are ways to do this that can be mutually beneficial to the fans and the developers/publishers alike ;)

TUSA/TX-Gunslinger
01-14-2011, 04:12 AM
Well, then you won't buy it I guess. The world won't change one iota because you didn't.

You'll miss out on whatever the product is and no one will have to listen to more discussion about things beyond their control. Ooops - I'm being overly optimistic there. No matter what DRM scheme is employed, I'm sure someone will have to listen to it somewhere.

My point was and is - there is not anything in this thread that will be said - which has even a 2% chance to change the world as we know it now - or in the future.

Just in case you don't understand where, I'm coming from - Why not focus your efforts on things in life (or sim) that you have a prayer-in-the-sky of changing?

Look, we have years of blathering to look forward to with this product and we haven't even seen it yet. Think of all the great threads to come:

- My Merlin is porked and Oleg did it
- My Daimler-Benz is porked and those whining Red guys did it
- I can't shoot and get kills like the Red guys so I'm going to subject all of you to endless streams of statistics and even start a web site to prove it
- Why can't the X do what my favorite dead pilot wrote (who I never knew anyway)

Do I have a bad attitude - or am I simply too old for the "revolt"?

S!

Gunny

nearmiss
01-14-2011, 04:21 AM
Blackdog_kt

but the rest think sims are "too difficult/time consuming".

You said it all with that one sentence. If people aren't into our genre (air combat with realism) they won't be interested.

I gave a friend IL2 1946 as a Christmas present. He messed with it for about 6 hours and hasn't done anything else with it. Too much to learn to enjoy it...so back to his WOW.

I even offered to install the 4.10 and he said I could do it if I wanted, but he wasn't real interested to do any more with it. Typical gamer I'd say.

SEE
01-14-2011, 04:32 AM
I work away from home four days a week but have a PC with IL2 installed (no internet unfortunately) but SP campaigns keep me occupied and happy. I asked this in another thread and wondered if it will be necessary to buy a copy for each PC?

I can bring my second PC home and connect to the internet for activation but, WOP for example, only allows a single installation and has to be deacivated before it can be installed on another computer.

Wolf_Rider
01-14-2011, 04:36 AM
Hmm... dunno... despite all these comments on weak or no connection, they seem to be posting ok and I'm sure they have no hassle when it comes to updating their windows operating systems and downloading a sim patch/ upgrade, or device update.

it just strikes me as a curious situation

WTE_Galway
01-14-2011, 05:37 AM
Hmm... dunno... despite all these comments on weak or no connection, they seem to be posting ok and I'm sure they have no hassle when it comes to updating their windows operating systems and downloading a sim patch/ upgrade, or device update.

it just strikes me as a curious situation

meh ... its not a big issue. people like myself that are offline at home will just keep IL2 alive and well for a bit longer :D Its not as if the odd older player like myself staying with IL2 is going to effect the viability of SoW that much.

It happened in the D&D community with 4th edition. Many of the older long term players elected to retain the old system and play campaigns by Piazo (Pathfinder) leaving 4th edition for the newcomers. 4th edition made a fortune out of the newcomers though.

Blackdog_kt
01-14-2011, 06:28 AM
There's nothing curious about it. You guys tend to take for granted a service that's inherently bound with layers upon layers of complexity and dependencies. It leaves a sour taste to bind the use of a paid for product to something that has so much potential for unreliability and instability. Not to mention that nowadays we do have sufficient examples of such schemes going belly up or having to get changed under the combination of customer outcry, reduced sales and no dent in piracy whatsoever.

If publishers actually funded the developers with as much money as they spend on advertising and coming up with new DRM implementations maybe the developers could actually turn a decent profit to stay in the business. Make no mistake, these two are different from one another. What usually happens however is that devs do the work and get some return of investment while publishers push the crates to the shelves, get the big money and if something goes wrong they just have to abandon the developer team to fend for itself.
As a result of this, i seriously wish 1c would self-distribute in Europe too. It's no wonder more and more small, independent game developers pursue this route. Take stardock games for example. They published 2-3 titles with no DRM and made a killing despite the piracy hit since they didn't have to shoulder the overhead of a third party acting as publisher. They have grown so much that nowadays they are carrying all the AAA titles along with most of the small, independent ones and can afford to make weekly promotional offers on all of them.

This is no revolt or anything similar like it has jokingly been pointed out, just observations from recent events in the field of gaming combined with what is expected of a vendor when you buy something...you want it to WORK in a manner that doesn't inconvenience you. ;)
If my net goes down right now the worst that can happen is losing a few lines of text on a forum i don't pay to post on, but i can still use everything on my PC that i spent money on. It's not about the actual amount of money, it's just a matter of principle and being a business with principles is what guarantees a loyal following.

As for what changes and what doesn't, if i was the only one with such an opinion then you would be right Gunslinger. Turns out i'm not however, or Ubi would still be running their always online scheme which they abandoned. I'm not glad SH5 more or less flopped, but i'm overjoyed that Ubi was forced to change their ridiculous copy protection scheme that inconvenienced only legitimate buyers, while pirates played the game just fine. Small tip: making sure your game runs worse than the equivalent pirate copy is definitely not the way to reduce piracy :-P

Anyway, i'm not trying to step on anyone's toes or force my opinion. I'm just arguing the case that it would be a friggin' shame to lose so many potential customers when SoW has been in development for so long.

We're all just killing time and speculating here, but one thing we can agree on is that all of us want SoW to be a success. What prompted me to post is a genuine question in regards to this and nothing else. Why would any fan of team Maddox and their work want their new title to be saddled with something that could potentially cause it to have a slow launch like RoF or a fate similar to SH5? ;)

If this, i guess purely rhetorical, question annoys people so much then they shouldn't worry about having to hear me much longer in case a problematic DRM implementations is used, as things will turn out the way they did with RoF.
I eagerly expected that title too, argued against their chosen implementation of DRM, people accused me of single-handedly sabotaging the hobby (apparently my opinion mattered not one iota but millions, all of a sudden :-P) and eventually my interest in the title was sapped. I left the RoF forums in simHQ, the guys flying RoF were happy doing so and i was happy not having to deal with it's initial issues (not to mention the belief blindly held by a handful of guys there that DRM was the magic wand that would ensure their favorite company stays in business) :grin:

In fact, i didn't even check out the free demo until a year and a half later when i decided to give it another chance. A year and a half.
You could argue that i'm an isolated basket case, an anti-DRM zealot, whatever. Problem for the guys selling RoF was that i wasn't the only one and it showed big time, which would indicate that maybe their strategy was wrong.
The original publisher (ND games wasn't it?) selling the title rights to the N.American one (777 studios), who in turn changed the DRM and tried to relaunch the game (the iron cross edition) proved this as plain as day, not to mention the fact that when SH5 came along many among the people who praised RoF's DRM were suddenly angry at Ubi for using a similar method :confused::grin:

It certainly didn't flop as a game and it's much better than it originally was, but nobody can say it had the successful launch that IL2 enjoyed, with servers sprouting all around the place and massive community work in the form of skins, missions and campaigns providing added value to it.
It does have it's community doing the same things, but much later from the date of launch and to a lesser extent than IL2 did, a big reason for that being that they managed to cripple their impulse buying potential.
I remember some of their initial sales figures during their first year and it was under 500000 copies (their words, not mine), when the previous incarnation of Silent Hunter (an even more niche genre) managed to score more than a million copies.

Now why would i ever honestly want a similar fate to befall SoW?
WWI i can wait for a bit more, for u-boats i can still use modded SH3, but WWII is my main field of interest and as such, i would hate to see a game about it that's built by a company i like and respect suffer that kind of drawbacks, especially when the precedent is clearly there and the examples for avoidance still fresh.

That being said, i'm actually optimistic about SoW. Mr. Maddox more or less said he doesn't like the method Ubi used in SH5 and even if the publisher is Ubi they have changed their system after SH5's failure.

Just for the record, i do have a single title that requires online activation. It works more or less the way i described in my previous post and that's why i bought it. Oh, and it really has no problems with piracy since bug fixes, gameplay tweaks and interface improvements (much like team maddox has done with IL2) are too frequent for pirates to keep up with the updates.

Wolf_Rider
01-14-2011, 07:34 AM
There's only one sector to be getting upset at, and that isn't the developers or publishers... its the thieves (the pirates), the small percentage of people that bugger it up for everyone else

Richie
01-14-2011, 07:41 AM
The online guys won't give a hoot about this but it is a real pain I can see that. Like a guy said on youtube..It's like you're renting a game you don't have total ownership of it. Ubisoft is always watching you..

WTE_Galway
01-14-2011, 07:46 AM
There's only one sector to be getting upset at, and that isn't the developers or publishers... its the thieves (the pirates), the small percentage of people that bugger it up for everyone else

The pirate scare is a little bit like the mythical terrorist scare, its exaggerated out of all proportion.

Its well documented that:

a) commercial pirates will crack any DRM if the title is worth selling out of Shanghai
b) casual pirates tend to be collectors who would never buy the product anyway.

The REAL purpose of these online DRM is to prevent resale of the products second hand on ebay once the user is bored with them. It also makes the move to "pay per year/month" software eventually much easier.

By the way I am amazed how many people on these forums seem to get outraged at NG for insisting on royalties and then turn around and endorse onerous DRM schemes. Seems a bit hypocritical really.

Wolf_Rider
01-14-2011, 07:54 AM
@ Richie

the end user doesn't "own" the game though ... the end user purchases a license to install and run the software.






The pirate scare is a little bit like the mythical terrorist scare, its exaggerated out of all proportion.

Its well documented that:

a) commercial pirates will crack any DRM if the title is worth selling out of Shanghai
b) casual pirates tend to be collectors who would never buy the product anyway.

The REAL purpose of these online DRM is to prevent resale of the products second hand on ebay once the user is bored with them. It also makes the move to "pay per year/month" software eventually much easier.

By the way I am amazed how many people on these forums seem to get outraged at NG for insisting on royalties and then turn around and endorse onerous DRM schemes. Seems a bit hypocritical really.

well, there ya go, you made the point for us... piracy = loss of profit.
Limited activations goes some way to prevent the resale factor, but is far from a perfect solution... so back to online verifcation/ activation


as far as (the name unmentionable) NG goes... they are claiming copyright for Government works, which isn't copyrightable. The use of the brand name is though, which is why many have suggested to run with the naval designations under that Government Works/ artistic depiction clause. but then its also strange that an AI only version is selectable ingame.

I have to agree with an intrusive DRM system (Sony comes to mind here) not being the way to go, but I have no concern about the need for an online verification check and neither should anyone else who is genuine.... like I said "blame the pirates". I also don't agree with "renting the software" (pay to play) either

OrangeYoshi
01-14-2011, 08:53 AM
well, there ya go, you made the point for us... piracy = loss of profit

I'd argue that piracy actually increases profits, and that DRM of any kind decreases profits.

Why? Free marketing and ease of use.

First of all, you will never stop the pirates. No matter what kind of DRM you put on something, the pirates will crack it. Just look at Silent Hunter V.

Second of all, because you can't stop the pirates, any kind of DRM will actually cost the company money. Legitimate customers will turn to cracked versions than give them less of a hassle while installing or playing.

Third of all, many pirates download a game illegally to try it out or to hold them over until they are in a financial situation where they can pay for it. Not all people who pirate a game will never pay for it.

Lastly, the more people that can get access to your game, the more money you will make off of it. If someone buys the game and shows it to a friend, the friend might buy the game. If someone pirates the game and shows it to a friend, that friend might buy the game as well. Not all pirates who never pay for games hang out with strictly like-minded people.

Wolf_Rider
01-14-2011, 09:00 AM
it'd be a casuist argument though ;)

Blackdog_kt
01-14-2011, 11:32 AM
@ Richie

the end user doesn't "own" the game though ... the end user purchases a license to install and run the software.

So, if i loose my IL2 DVD, i can contant Ubi and they absolutely have to send me a new one, right? After all, i still have the license i paid for, don't i?
I guess you see how this is just a "whatever suits us in each separate case" attitude by certain companies ;)





well, there ya go, you made the point for us... piracy = loss of profit.
Limited activations goes some way to prevent the resale factor, but is far from a perfect solution... so back to online verifcation/ activation


as far as (the name unmentionable) NG goes... they are claiming copyright for Government works, which isn't copyrightable. The use of the brand name is though, which is why many have suggested to run with the naval designations under that Government Works/ artistic depiction clause. but then its also strange that an AI only version is selectable ingame.

I have to agree with an intrusive DRM system (Sony comes to mind here) not being the way to go, but I have no concern about the need for an online verification check and neither should anyone else who is genuine.... like I said "blame the pirates". I also don't agree with "renting the software" (pay to play) either

I don't necessarily disagree with this. Like i said before, i support some form of copy protection to delay the inevitable. What i don't support is poorly thought out DRM, which is usually a fancy way to say "people who don't pay actually play a leaner and better working version of the same game as the legitimate customer".

The main criteria about copy protection are the following:
1) Does it work for long enough to help the devs turn a profit?
2) Does it work in a way that doesn't make the pirated version even more attractive (ie, by inconveniencing the legitimate buyer)?
3) If it is a hassle to the legitimate customer, does it at least come with some added value features to offset that and will it be tuned down a notch as sales decrease over time?

That's all there is to it really. Any method of DRM/copy protection/whatever we like to call it that doesn't answer yes on 2 out of 3 is a failed method.

Wolf_Rider
01-14-2011, 11:53 AM
So, if i loose my IL2 DVD, i can contant Ubi and they absolutely have to send me a new one, right? After all, i still have the license i paid for, don't i?
I guess you see how this is just a "whatever suits us in each separate case" attitude by certain companies ;)




In most cases that would be a satifactory arrangement and should be possible, dependant on certain conditions being met. I also believe it should be allowable to burn a copy for back up purposes... but, thanks to pirates and their antics, they seem tohave $#%^%$# that up for everybody else.






I don't necessarily disagree with this. Like i said before, i support some form of copy protection to delay the inevitable. What i don't support is poorly thought out DRM, which is usually a fancy way to say "people who don't pay actually play a leaner and better working version of the same game as the legitimate customer".

The main criteria about copy protection are the following:
1) Does it work for long enough to help the devs turn a profit?
2) Does it work in a way that doesn't make the pirated version even more attractive (ie, by inconveniencing the legitimate buyer)?
3) If it is a hassle to the legitimate customer, does it at least come with some added value features to offset that and will it be tuned down a notch as sales decrease over time?

That's all there is to it really. Any method of DRM/copy protection/whatever we like to call it that doesn't answer yes on 2 out of 3 is a failed method.



we seem to be saying a similar thing there.
So, what would the problem be with online activation/ online uninstall/ limited activations (contact developer/ publisher for approval for more in the case of activations being burnt through accidentally, being possible) and an online verification for each and every time a user makes a connection to a multiplayer server, a verification check for update/ patch?

T}{OR
01-14-2011, 01:04 PM
Some people need to redefine their way of thinking. I am all into protecting developer's work etc. But...

The mistake here is to believe that any software (publicly released) can be protected at all. Operating systems, and all software that is wide spread gets hacked in a mater of hours, even minutes. Forcing a protection that will bring unnecessary problems to the legit customers equals shooting yorself in the foot. More so, todays software gets hacked even before you can buy it of the shelves. In plain and simple words - it is a loosing battle in which (if you turn to the intrusive and hated DRM) we could end up with a hassle-free product for the pirates and those using pirated copies.

It is time to get real. There are many many other options for making a game more appealing to the legit buyers than pirates. Be it with quality product overall, regular patches or updates & add-ons, or via some other stuff that rocks their boat. Fortunately (via stuff shown) Oleg knows this - game map and Spitfire manual anyone? ;)

A good example (like others stated already) is the latest StarCraft 2. Haven't played it myself but the philosophy there is what is already showing as the way forward.

Thus my money goes on the one time activation for this particular piece of software. We should know in a month time.

6S.Manu
01-14-2011, 01:27 PM
I love Steam.. it's true that the application is a little buggy and the game are REALLY expensive (I prefer to buy on play.com) but you can easily find special offers (I bought more 10 games this Xmas, between 5€ and 10€ each, and I bought some games as gift for other persons).

There's the friend list system who works very well; it's like to have hyperlobby but actually you can chat with them even if they are playing yet (in any game).

The results list that is inserted in almost every Steam game is challenging and it will pushes you to play different roles in the game (I'm playing with my friends to reach the 100% in L4D2, probably in IL2:CoD there will be results as fighter and bomber like "kill a 109 at 7km", "land without elevators in a He111", "kill 5 He111 in a single mission" and so on)

And the last one is that Steam autopatches the game automatically and when you backup the game on an external HD you don't need to install the patches again and again.

It's all very simple; the only games who has issues were Mass Effect (fixed disabling the In-Game function of Steam) and Mount & Blade: Warband (fixed in 4 hours by Steam itself).

About account stealing: I haven't experienced that (and I've 2 accounts), but I don't think it will be a problem. I'm more scared about my gmail account (at least there are no sensible information in Steam, there is no privacy issue since there are no data if not the game list).

addman
01-14-2011, 01:42 PM
Interesting reasoning going on here. Some claim DRM is a way for the publishers to control how the people play, how does that make ANY sense from ANY perspective?LOL! I don't now wether to laugh or cry at the DRM haters, I'll mention a few common "anti-DRM" arguments:

1. I don't have a stable internet connection so I can't play if I'm offline.
In this case that argument flies right out the door since it seems the game only requires online ACTIVATION. I presume most of you know what activation means. Now, IF the game will need to be AUTHENTICATED online whilst playing it then it might be a problem for some people. Now, in most developed countries even the slowest DSL connection is stable enough, I have an 8Mbit DSL connection and it drops about 1 time/2 months, I restart the modem ca 10-20 sec and it works again. If you are living in a developing country then I can see some issues of course.

2. I want to be able to play the game on the go (offline).
Hmm, who plays a flightsim "on the go"? I sometimes bring my Nintendo DS or PSP around on trips or whatever but even those are cumbersome and especially the PSP takes a good time to load some games. So if you are on a business trip or something you actually bring your huge-*ss gaming laptop with you? You're gonna need a joystick, where do you put your HOTAS or even a "smaller" joystick? in your back pocket? They won't even fit in a small suitcase! Ok, presume you DO bring all that stuff with you on your trips, most hotels (even cheaper ones) have free Wlan.

There are more arguments of course. Why is there DRM? To scare off customers? I don't think so, customers=€. DRM exists because of rampant piracy. Piracy has basically destroyed the Sony PSP and the Nintendo DS and it's not helping PC gaming by any means. The XBox 360 and the PS3 gets firmware updates regularely that makes sure you don't have a hardware modified consoles. Also, if you want to be able to play Call of Duty: Black Ops online -most people play it online- you need a valid copy. Latest is that security loopholes in the PS3 hardware/software have been discovered by some self-justified hacker group. They claim -of course- that it's good for those who want to use homebrew apps on their PS3 but we all know what the reason really is.

Point is, DRM is there to protect from piracy so that the games will generate enough profit for a + figure on the publishers/developers accounts so that they may CONTINUE to produce and publish games. Those of you who don't like DRM, fine! don't buy the game and don't play the game. You might as well stop posting on this forum since you wont play the game when it's released -what's the point really?-. As for me, I'm gonna get the "edition for the few", install it and play it for -hopefully- many years to come. DRM doesn't bother me in any way, but that's just me and this is me being subjective ;)

=Kike=
01-14-2011, 01:50 PM
Interesting reasoning going on here. Some claim DRM is a way for the publishers to control how the people play, how does that make ANY sense from ANY perspective?LOL! I don't now wether to laugh or cry at the DRM haters, I'll mention a few common "anti-DRM" arguments:

1. I don't have a stable internet connection so I can't play if I'm offline.
In this case that argument flies right out the door since it seems the game only requires online ACTIVATION. I presume most of you know what activation means. Now, IF the game will need to be AUTHENTICATED online whilst playing it then it might be a problem for some people. Now, in most developed countries even the slowest DSL connection is stable enough, I have an 8Mbit DSL connection and it drops about 1 time/2 months, I restart the modem ca 10-20 sec and it works again. If you are living in a developing country then I can see some issues of course.

2. I want to be able to play the game on the go (offline).
Hmm, who plays a flightsim "on the go"? I sometimes bring my Nintendo DS or PSP around on trips or whatever but even those are cumbersome and especially the PSP takes a good time to load some games. So if you are on a business trip or something you actually bring your huge-*ss gaming laptop with you? You're gonna need a joystick, where do you put your HOTAS or even a "smaller" joystick? in your back pocket? They won't even fit in a small suitcase! Ok, presume you DO bring all that stuff with you on your trips, most hotels (even cheaper ones) have free Wlan.

There are more arguments of course. Why is there DRM? To scare off customers? I don't think so, customers=€. DRM exists because of rampant piracy. Piracy has basically destroyed the Sony PSP and the Nintendo DS and it's not helping PC gaming by any means. The XBox 360 and the PS3 gets firmware updates regularely that makes sure you don't have a hardware modified consoles. Also, if you want to be able to play Call of Duty: Black Ops online -most people play it online- you need a valid copy. Latest is that security loopholes in the PS3 hardware/software have been discovered by some self-justified hacker group. They claim -of course- that it's good for those who want to use homebrew apps on their PS3 but we all know what the reason really is.

Point is, DRM is there to protect from piracy so that the games will generate enough profit for a + figure on the publishers/developers accounts so that they may CONTINUE to produce and publish games. Those of you who don't like DRM, fine! don't buy the game and don't play the game. You might as well stop posting on this forum since you wont play the game when it's released -what's the point really?-. As for me, I'm gonna get the "edition for the few", install it and play it for -hopefully- many years to come. DRM doesn't bother me in any way, but that's just me and this is me being subjective ;)

+1

Blackdog_kt
01-14-2011, 01:57 PM
What you proposed is a bit too dependent on the internet for my taste (being online to uninstall mainly, the rest i find acceptable), others may find it ok though and it's still better than a constant connectivity requirement.

I actually outlined my idea of how an online activated version could work with minimal hassle for the player, which to be honest is not my idea that much. It's actually based on the way Starcraft 2 works with a small but important change tailored to the importance of single player mode for many flight simmers.

What you do with SC2 is create a free battlenet account, tie your CD-key to it and login with this account when you run it.
However, if your internet access is disabled you get the option to enable offline mode.

Advantages:
1) Easy, one time activation. No limited activation/deactivation business, rootkits or registry keys that monitor your PC components and stop working the time you install a hardware upgrade because the key doesn't match with your latest hardware components.
2) You can download the installation files by logging into your battlenet account even if you don't have the physical installation disk at hand or because you want to install on a different PC.
3) You can log in with your account from other PCs than your own (eg, when playing against friends in a LAN party or contest).
4) You can play against the AI when the internet is down (clarification on this below however).

Disadvantages:
1) Everything multiplayer goes through battlenet, meaning i could be playing against a person in the same room and still have lag. There's no direct LAN support in order to prevent people from totally sidestepping the authentication, but this is worked on. A proposed solution is to connect to battlenet first for authentication, then revert to LAN mode once the players are invited into the game lobby.
2) You can't activate if your internet is down for whatever reason.
3) In order to enable offline mode you first need to connect on game start-up. Yes, you first need to go online each time before offline mode is available, which pretty much defeats the whole purpose of it if you are on an extended downtime.

Number 3 is my main gripe with it (it's actually pretty stupid the way it works in that regard), but i ended up buying the game because all i do with it is multiplayer with and against some friends, among ourselves or online on battlenet.

So why did i buy it if i dislike DRM so much? The answer is that it's far from a perfect system but it works well enough for what i want to do.This is also a very important factor when considering DRM, how do you intend to play the game?
If i was interested primarily in the single player mode, then i would find it unacceptable having to connect on each game launch. However, SC2 just like the original SC is mainly a multiplayer game. It has a nice storyline and amazing cutscenes in the single player campaign, but you can burn through it within a week tops. The real value of the game lies in its well-balanced unit mix that creates a highly dynamic rock-paper-scissors type of multiplayer.

However, since flight sims have a strong single player component and Oleg Maddox said himself that 80% of IL2's sales were offline players even if they had access to the internet, if we copied SC2's system we'd have to make sure the people who fly offline and/or lack access to the internet due to travelling/work/etc are not getting shut out, because this translates directly to lost sales amid the 80% the offliners constitute.

What i would do for SoW is copy SC2's system almost verbatim with two small but important changes:
1) Having a single authentication server in place of battlenet. No need for the publisher to handle all the multiplayer network traffic and pay the associated bills, when just an integrated, in-game server browser similar to Hyperlobby would be enough.
2) Validate the game online on each launch, but only as long as an internet connection is already present. If no internet connection is available but the installation is already activated, skip straight to the offline mode. And if you are really worried about people exploiting this to share their cd-keys, make it expire after one month. One log-in needed per month would be manageable even for people who travel a lot and play on gaming laptops, or those who suffer connection problems.

The bottom line is that all these big publishing companies are not stupid. If we make it clear that their games won't sell well if they ship with troublesome features, they will change them sooner or later and come up with something clever enough to protect the game without making it a pain to use for the legitimate buyers. You are the customer, you can demand the inclusion of a few things that work in your convenience's favor ;)


Anyway, i think i've said more than enough on this issue and made my point as clear as it can be made. I'm out of this thread, thanks for keeping it civil everyone :cool:

Wolf_Rider
01-14-2011, 01:57 PM
+2

addman
01-14-2011, 02:03 PM
What you proposed is a bit too dependent on the internet for my taste (being online to uninstall mainly, the rest i find acceptable), others may find it ok though and it's still better than a constant connectivity requirement.

I actually outlined my idea of how an online activated version could work with minimal hassle for the player, which to be honest is not my idea that much. It's actually based on the way Starcraft 2 works with a small but important change tailored to the importance of single player mode for many flight simmers.

What you do with SC2 is create a free battlenet account, tie your CD-key to it and login with this account when you run it.
However, if your internet access is disabled you get the option to enable offline mode.

Advantages:
1) Easy, one time activation. No limited activation/deactivation business, rootkits or registry keys that monitor your PC components and stop working the time you install a hardware upgrade because the key doesn't match with your latest hardware components.
2) You can download the installation files by logging into your battlenet account even if you don't have the physical installation disk at hand or because you want to install on a different PC.
3) You can log in with your account from other PCs than your own (eg, when playing against friends in a LAN party or contest).
4) You can play against the AI when the internet is down (clarification on this below however).

Disadvantages:
1) Everything multiplayer goes through battlenet, meaning i could be playing against a person in the same room and still have lag. There's no direct LAN support in order to prevent people from totally sidestepping the authentication, but this is worked on. A proposed solution is to connect to battlenet first for authentication, then revert to LAN mode once the players are invited into the game lobby.
2) You can't activate if your internet is down for whatever reason.
3) In order to enable offline mode you first need to connect on game start-up. Yes, you first need to go online each time before offline mode is available, which pretty much defeats the whole purpose of it if you are on an extended downtime.

Number 3 is my main gripe with it (it's actually pretty stupid the way it works in that regard), but i ended up buying the game because all i do with it is multiplayer with and against some friends, among ourselves or online on battlenet.

So why did i buy it if i dislike DRM so much? The answer is that it's far from a perfect system but it works well enough for what i want to do.This is also a very important factor when considering DRM, how do you intend to play the game?
If i was interested primarily in the single player mode, then i would find it unacceptable having to connect on each game launch. However, SC2 just like the original SC is mainly a multiplayer game. It has a nice storyline and amazing cutscenes in the single player campaign, but you can burn through it within a week tops. The real value of the game lies in its well-balanced unit mix that creates a highly dynamic rock-paper-scissors type of multiplayer.

However, since flight sims have a strong single player component and Oleg Maddox said himself that 80% of IL2's sales were offline players even if they had access to the internet, if we copied SC2's system we'd have to make sure the people who fly offline and/or lack access to the internet due to travelling/work/etc are not getting shut out, because this translates directly to lost sales amid the 80% the offliners constitute.

What i would do for SoW is copy SC2's system almost verbatim with two small but important changes:
1) Having a single authentication server in place of battlenet. No need for the publisher to handle all the multiplayer network traffic and pay the associated bills, when just an integrated, in-game server browser similar to Hyperlobby would be enough.
2) Validate the game online on each launch, but only as long as an internet connection is already present. If no internet connection is available but the installation is already activated, skip straight to the offline mode. And if you are really worried about people exploiting this to share their cd-keys, make it expire after one month. One log-in needed per month would be manageable even for people who travel a lot and play on gaming laptops, or those who suffer connection problems.

The bottom line is that all these big publishing companies are not stupid. If we make it clear that their games won't sell well if they ship with troublesome features, they will change them sooner or later and come up with something clever enough to protect the game without making it a pain to use for the legitimate buyers. You are the customer, you can demand the inclusion of a few things that work in your convenience's favor ;)


Anyway, i think i've said more than enough on this issue and made my point as clear as it can be made. I'm out of this thread, thanks for keeping it civil everyone :cool:

+1
One time activation should be "doable" for most people. Constant authentication might be a problem for some. Should that be the consensus?

csThor
01-14-2011, 02:05 PM
Why is there DRM? To scare off customers? I don't think so, customers=€. DRM exists because of rampant piracy.

That's smokescreen-talk. To counter piracy a working copy protection would be sufficient. DRM is about tying customers to the publisher, introduce more and more stringent DRM schemes and pay-DLCs, prepare the way for true cloud-computing and ultimately force pay-to-play (even if called "club membership fee" to ease the public outcry) for any kind of game. This is what DRM is about - it's about introducing various new ways of squeezing even more money out of customers, money which will flow to the Publisher alone and which will not be used to develop better games. And this is why I believe DRM is inacceptable while copy protection is.

mazex
01-14-2011, 02:06 PM
Interesting reasoning going on here. Some claim DRM is a way for the publishers to control how the people play, how does that make ANY sense from ANY perspective?LOL! I don't now wether to laugh or cry at the DRM haters, I'll mention a few common "anti-DRM" arguments:

1. I don't have a stable internet connection so I can't play if I'm offline.
In this case that argument flies right out the door since it seems the game only requires online ACTIVATION. I presume most of you know what activation means. Now, IF the game will need to be AUTHENTICATED online whilst playing it then it might be a problem for some people. Now, in most developed countries even the slowest DSL connection is stable enough, I have an 8Mbit DSL connection and it drops about 1 time/2 months, I restart the modem ca 10-20 sec and it works again. If you are living in a developing country then I can see some issues of course.

2. I want to be able to play the game on the go (offline).
Hmm, who plays a flightsim "on the go"? I sometimes bring my Nintendo DS or PSP around on trips or whatever but even those are cumbersome and especially the PSP takes a good time to load some games. So if you are on a business trip or something you actually bring your huge-*ss gaming laptop with you? You're gonna need a joystick, where do you put your HOTAS or even a "smaller" joystick? in your back pocket? They won't even fit in a small suitcase! Ok, presume you DO bring all that stuff with you on your trips, most hotels (even cheaper ones) have free Wlan.

There are more arguments of course. Why is there DRM? To scare off customers? I don't think so, customers=€. DRM exists because of rampant piracy. Piracy has basically destroyed the Sony PSP and the Nintendo DS and it's not helping PC gaming by any means. The XBox 360 and the PS3 gets firmware updates regularely that makes sure you don't have a hardware modified consoles. Also, if you want to be able to play Call of Duty: Black Ops online -most people play it online- you need a valid copy. Latest is that security loopholes in the PS3 hardware/software have been discovered by some self-justified hacker group. They claim -of course- that it's good for those who want to use homebrew apps on their PS3 but we all know what the reason really is.

Point is, DRM is there to protect from piracy so that the games will generate enough profit for a + figure on the publishers/developers accounts so that they may CONTINUE to produce and publish games. Those of you who don't like DRM, fine! don't buy the game and don't play the game. You might as well stop posting on this forum since you wont play the game when it's released -what's the point really?-. As for me, I'm gonna get the "edition for the few", install it and play it for -hopefully- many years to come. DRM doesn't bother me in any way, but that's just me and this is me being subjective ;)

+1

Tacoma74
01-14-2011, 02:22 PM
Interesting reasoning going on here. Some claim DRM is a way for the publishers to control how the people play, how does that make ANY sense from ANY perspective?LOL! I don't now wether to laugh or cry at the DRM haters, I'll mention a few common "anti-DRM" arguments:

1. I don't have a stable internet connection so I can't play if I'm offline.
In this case that argument flies right out the door since it seems the game only requires online ACTIVATION. I presume most of you know what activation means. Now, IF the game will need to be AUTHENTICATED online whilst playing it then it might be a problem for some people. Now, in most developed countries even the slowest DSL connection is stable enough, I have an 8Mbit DSL connection and it drops about 1 time/2 months, I restart the modem ca 10-20 sec and it works again. If you are living in a developing country then I can see some issues of course.

2. I want to be able to play the game on the go (offline).
Hmm, who plays a flightsim "on the go"? I sometimes bring my Nintendo DS or PSP around on trips or whatever but even those are cumbersome and especially the PSP takes a good time to load some games. So if you are on a business trip or something you actually bring your huge-*ss gaming laptop with you? You're gonna need a joystick, where do you put your HOTAS or even a "smaller" joystick? in your back pocket? They won't even fit in a small suitcase! Ok, presume you DO bring all that stuff with you on your trips, most hotels (even cheaper ones) have free Wlan.

There are more arguments of course. Why is there DRM? To scare off customers? I don't think so, customers=€. DRM exists because of rampant piracy. Piracy has basically destroyed the Sony PSP and the Nintendo DS and it's not helping PC gaming by any means. The XBox 360 and the PS3 gets firmware updates regularely that makes sure you don't have a hardware modified consoles. Also, if you want to be able to play Call of Duty: Black Ops online -most people play it online- you need a valid copy. Latest is that security loopholes in the PS3 hardware/software have been discovered by some self-justified hacker group. They claim -of course- that it's good for those who want to use homebrew apps on their PS3 but we all know what the reason really is.

Point is, DRM is there to protect from piracy so that the games will generate enough profit for a + figure on the publishers/developers accounts so that they may CONTINUE to produce and publish games. Those of you who don't like DRM, fine! don't buy the game and don't play the game. You might as well stop posting on this forum since you wont play the game when it's released -what's the point really?-. As for me, I'm gonna get the "edition for the few", install it and play it for -hopefully- many years to come. DRM doesn't bother me in any way, but that's just me and this is me being subjective ;)

+1

There were also accounts of people running into problems with program compatibility issues. Things like iTunes and such not working with Ubi's DRM on other games. My opinion: You must be crazy to pass up this masterpiece of a sim just so you can have those crappy programs. CoD will be of the highest priority on my system hands down.

robtek
01-14-2011, 02:58 PM
I really, really don't understand why there are people still believing that DRM pevents piracy.

Wake up!!!
No DRM has protected any software against piracy!

Usually the pirated copys are leaked before DRM is even implemented.
If that didn't happen the "super-safe-protection" is cracked within days (SHV), leaving the legal owner with a almost unusable Software (SHV-Servers)
and the users of pirated copys went scot-free.

Just remember this saying: The price of security is freedom.

Give the legal owners something the pirates can't give and you have won.

Wolf_Rider
01-14-2011, 03:19 PM
One time activation should be "doable" for most people. Constant authentication might be a problem for some. Should that be the consensus?



err, no... it shouldn't be "the consensus".
There shouldn't be a problem with having to activate/ deactivate and authenticate.

Blackdog made some good points, but I feel hasn't hasn't taken legitimate hardware/ complete system upgrade into account. One active key for two different hardware setups would raise the flag, hence the need for a "deactivation". On re-activating (in the case of a system upgrade) would match signup information, and if legit, would give the go ahead. Similar for a partial hardware upgrade.
As well, a verification check for game patch, would determine if the file structure/ files are legit and safe to patch.

Trumper
01-14-2011, 05:13 PM
If the game is sensibly priced so that the majority can afford the original version then why bother with piracy.
You will ALWAYS have those that won't pay you can't legislate for that BUT you can reduce their popularity by pricing so it's not an attractive option.
Cheesing off the majority to fight a minority is just daft.
If that happened it may encourage more people to wait a year or so to see what happens and get it cheaper in the sales when all the bugs have been ironed out.

Avimimus
01-14-2011, 05:52 PM
Btw. It is worth noting that the first generations of flight sims were produced with less DRM and markets that were many times smaller. In fact, flight sims were much more popular when the markets were tiny in the 1990s.

Of course, the amount of labour required and overall fidelity was also lower (smaller budgets) - but we shouldn't pretend that the genre won't exist without invasive DRM.

Avimimus
01-14-2011, 06:05 PM
err, no... it shouldn't be "the consensus".
There shouldn't be a problem with having to authenticate.

Blackdog made some good points, but I feel hasn't hasn't taken legitimate hardware/ complete system upgrade into account. One active key for two different hardware setups would raise the flag, hence the need for a "deactivation". On re-activating (in the case of a system upgrade) would match signup information, and if legit, would give the go ahead. Similar for a partial hardware upgrade.
As well, a verification check for game patch, would determine if the file structure/ files are legit and safe to patch.

Try going to most rural or remote community in Canada - you can't even get dial-up. Just because it isn't your experience doesn't mean it is non-existent.

I'd also argue that automatic patching is anathema to flight sims. We often customise our installs very carefully (with mods, with skins or simply with setting changes). It is a really bad idea to let some exhausted staff member enter your machine and rebuild your install...

I've also had issues with the Rise of Flight forced autopatching system - not only was it incompatible with my older hardware (prior to the release of a hotfix), but system requirements have gradually climbed to the point where I can no longer run the sim.

There is this myopia that says we all have high-speed connections, we all fly online, we all have new hardware, we all buy our games, play them through twice and discard them like FPS junkies and we'd all use pirated copies if we could. None of it is true.

yellonet
01-14-2011, 07:31 PM
Interesting reasoning going on here. Some claim DRM is a way for the publishers to control how the people play, how does that make ANY sense from ANY perspective?LOL! I don't now wether to laugh or cry at the DRM haters, I'll mention a few common "anti-DRM" arguments:It's even more interesting to see people that defend the use of DRM, as they've obviously swallowed the whole concept as the publishers present it, hook line and sink.
Why someone would trust a large company whose sole purpose is to make money over their fellow customers views - who probably have the same goal in mind - is frankly beyond me.

1. I don't have a stable internet connection so I can't play if I'm offline.
In this case that argument flies right out the door since it seems the game only requires online ACTIVATION. I presume most of you know what activation means. Now, IF the game will need to be AUTHENTICATED online whilst playing it then it might be a problem for some people. Now, in most developed countries even the slowest DSL connection is stable enough, I have an 8Mbit DSL connection and it drops about 1 time/2 months, I restart the modem ca 10-20 sec and it works again. If you are living in a developing country then I can see some issues of course.If there's only a one time activation and absolutely nothing more, that's likely fine for most people, but something like that isn't really DRM.

2. I want to be able to play the game on the go (offline).
Hmm, who plays a flightsim "on the go"? I sometimes bring my Nintendo DS or PSP around on trips or whatever but even those are cumbersome and especially the PSP takes a good time to load some games. So if you are on a business trip or something you actually bring your huge-*ss gaming laptop with you? You're gonna need a joystick, where do you put your HOTAS or even a "smaller" joystick? in your back pocket? They won't even fit in a small suitcase! Ok, presume you DO bring all that stuff with you on your trips, most hotels (even cheaper ones) have free Wlan.
See, already you're grasping for straws for arguments to support these kind of systems that prevent the customer to use the software where and when they like.
It's not about how many people that use it like this, it's about the principle that the publishers are moving towards more and more control over how you use the product you paid them to use.
It's not like anyone would buy a car that they could only drive between 7 and 12 and only fill up with gas on select stations. The point being, when you buy something you should be able to use it as you see fit. Not as the seller decides for you.

There are more arguments of course. Why is there DRM? To scare off customers? I don't think so, customers=€. DRM exists because of rampant piracy. Piracy has basically destroyed the Sony PSP and the Nintendo DS and it's not helping PC gaming by any means. The XBox 360 and the PS3 gets firmware updates regularely that makes sure you don't have a hardware modified consoles. Also, if you want to be able to play Call of Duty: Black Ops online -most people play it online- you need a valid copy. Latest is that security loopholes in the PS3 hardware/software have been discovered by some self-justified hacker group. They claim -of course- that it's good for those who want to use homebrew apps on their PS3 but we all know what the reason really is.
Of course DRM isn't there to scare off customers, and no one suggested that either.
And yeah, Nintendo DS is being destroyed, what a joke! The DS is a complete success story and makes loads of money for Nintendo.
When we're already on the topic of consoles, one of the reasons why the Playstation became so popular was because it was so easy to get hold of pirate copies of games, it was technically inferior to the N64 at the time and had crappier controls, still it was a major success, and that continued with the Playstation 2 where the games where just as easy to come by cheap.
Piracy is far from the negative force that the developers and publishers wants us to think.

Point is, DRM is there to protect from piracy so that the games will generate enough profit for a + figure on the publishers/developers accounts so that they may CONTINUE to produce and publish games. Those of you who don't like DRM, fine! don't buy the game and don't play the game. You might as well stop posting on this forum since you wont play the game when it's released -what's the point really?-. As for me, I'm gonna get the "edition for the few", install it and play it for -hopefully- many years to come.Actually no, DRM is not to combat piracy. DRM stands for Digital Rights Management, in essence it's a common name for different bits of software that are designed to manage your digital rights of the software that you've bought a license for.
DRM is often used with movies and music for instance, deciding - for you - on which player you can play it or perhaps if you can transfer the movie/music to different media than the original one.
Pirates will crack the DRM and then it's out of the picture, so no DRM is not to fight piracy but to enforce the publishers view of how you should use the software.

DRM doesn't bother me in any way, but that's just me and this is me being subjective ;)And that's fine. But you should also respect people that are against DRM.

Wolf_Rider
01-14-2011, 09:11 PM
Try going to most rural or remote community in Canada - you can't even get dial-up. Just because it isn't your experience doesn't mean it is non-existent.

I'd also argue that automatic patching is anathema to flight sims. We often customise our installs very carefully (with mods, with skins or simply with setting changes). It is a really bad idea to let some exhausted staff member enter your machine and rebuild your install...

I've also had issues with the Rise of Flight forced autopatching system - not only was it incompatible with my older hardware (prior to the release of a hotfix), but system requirements have gradually climbed to the point where I can no longer run the sim.

There is this myopia that says we all have high-speed connections, we all fly online, we all have new hardware, we all buy our games, play them through twice and discard them like FPS junkies and we'd all use pirated copies if we could. None of it is true.




I hate to rain on your parade there buddy, but how did you extrapolate all that from my post you quoted?

out in the rural or remote community of Canada? how do they get their email then?



@yellownet

the oignal part you probably missed was, "2. I want to be able to play the game on the go (offline)."
and the response was "Hmm, who plays a flightsim "on the go"? I sometimes bring my Nintendo DS or PSP around on trips or whatever but even those are cumbersome and especially the PSP takes a good time to load some games. So if you are on a business trip or something you actually bring your huge-*ss gaming laptop with you? You're gonna need a joystick, where do you put your HOTAS or even a "smaller" joystick? in your back pocket? They won't even fit in a small suitcase! Ok, presume you DO bring all that stuff with you on your trips, most hotels (even cheaper ones) have free Wlan."

You've done yourself a misservice with your response to that

let me ask you on your "The point being, when you buy something you should be able to use it as you see fit."; do you complain because you have to use nVidia drivers with nVidia cards, and have no option to use ATI instead... and vica versa? Or, (this bit is for Avimimus as well) with your shiny new car... that you've replaced the engine and running gear with the engine and running gear from another manufacturer and wonder why the dealer you've bought car from won't honour your shop warranty?

KG26_Alpha
01-14-2011, 10:01 PM
When you buy retailed software you are not buying the software its self, just the right to use it.

The company would be mad to actually sell you their software they have spent years and hundreds of thousands/millions on for peanuts :)

You only own the right to use it under their terms and conditions.




.

Wolf_Rider
01-14-2011, 10:08 PM
When you buy retailed software you are not buying the software its self, just the right to use it.

You only own the right to use it under their terms and conditions.




We do keep trying to get that across... yet something seems to go missing on the way.
Does anyone actually read the EULA, that thing you have to agree to for the install to proceed?

yellonet
01-14-2011, 10:16 PM
@yellownet

the oignal part you probably missed was, "2. I want to be able to play the game on the go (offline)."
and the response was "Hmm, who plays a flightsim "on the go"? I sometimes bring my Nintendo DS or PSP around on trips or whatever but even those are cumbersome and especially the PSP takes a good time to load some games. So if you are on a business trip or something you actually bring your huge-*ss gaming laptop with you? You're gonna need a joystick, where do you put your HOTAS or even a "smaller" joystick? in your back pocket? They won't even fit in a small suitcase! Ok, presume you DO bring all that stuff with you on your trips, most hotels (even cheaper ones) have free Wlan."

You've done yourself a misservice with your response to thatNo I didn't miss that, but you may have missed the meaning of my answer.

let me ask you on your "The point being, when you buy something you should be able to use it as you see fit."; do you complain because you have to use nVidia drivers with nVidia cards, and have no option to use ATI instead... and vica versa?That's hardly the same thing, DRM isn't something that is a vital part of the product, the product works just fine without it, DRM is just added afterwards in order to control how the product is used. How would you like it if that nVidia card would only would let you run games that had paid off nVidia to be "nVidia certified" for instance?

Or, (this bit is for yellownet as well) with your shiny new car... that you've replaced the engine and running gear with the engine and running gear from another manufacturer and wonder why the dealer you've bought car from won't honour your shop warranty?Again, that's not the same. We're not talking about changing the product and then making a claim against the publisher/seller, it's just about being able to use the product the way you want to without being forced to be online or being forced to install software that you have no control over and that can pretty much do anything in your system without you knowing it.

yellonet
01-14-2011, 10:19 PM
When you buy retailed software you are not buying the software its self, just the right to use it.

The company would be mad to actually sell you their software they have spent years and hundreds of thousands/millions on for peanuts :)

You only own the right to use it under their terms and conditions.

.I think most people are aware of this. And it's just those "terms" that we're talking about.

Basically if you want to play the game you are forced to install other software that you have no control over at all and that can do pretty much anything in your system without you knowing.
Is it so difficult to understand that some people doesn't like that and just wants to buy a clean game?

Wolf_Rider
01-14-2011, 10:21 PM
No I didn't miss that, but you may have missed the meaning of my answer.


That's hardly the same thing, DRM isn't something that is a vital part of the product, the product works just fine without it, DRM is just added afterwards in order to control how the product is used. How would you like it if that nVidia card would only would let you run games that had paid off nVidia to be "nVidia certified" for instance?


Again, that's not the same. We're not talking about changing the product and then making a claim against the publisher/seller, it's just about being able to use the product the way you want to without being forced to be online or being forced to install software that you have no control over and that can pretty much do anything in your system without you knowing it.



Nah... I understood your answer

my question which I put to you... you're twisting and detracting away a little there and getting into areas of trading law

how do you define: use it the way you want to?

well, you've only got the thieves/ pirates to thank for that... but, in fairness, I don't agree with being held to a constant online connect to run the sim/ game either (as I've said before), which is different to an online activation yada, yada.

The Kraken
01-14-2011, 10:29 PM
You only own the right to use it under their terms and conditions.

Indeed. And those conditions get successively worse for the customer. And everyone's cheering about that :confused:

Wolf_Rider
01-14-2011, 10:48 PM
this the from the last game I put in, which hasn't varied much since the first, many many years ago...

3.LICENCE CONDITIONS

3.1Except as expressly set out in this Licence or as permitted by any local law, you undertake to use the Program for your own personal use, and you shall not:

(a)use the Program, or permit use of the Program, on more than one computer, computer terminal, or workstation at the same time;
(b)make copies of the Program or any part thereof, or make copies of the materials accompanying this Program except where such copying is incidental to normal use of the Program or where it is necessary for the purpose of back-up or security;
(c)use the Program, or permit use of the Program, in a network, multi-user arrangement or remote access arrangement, including any online use, except as otherwise explicitly provided by the Program;
(d)sell, rent, lease, sub-license, distribute, loan, translate, merge, adapt, vary, modify or otherwise transfer the Program, or any copies of the Program, without the express prior written consent of XXXX;
(e)not to make alterations to, or modifications of, the whole or any part of the Program nor permit the Program or any part of it to be combined with, or become incorporated in, any other programs;
(f)not to disassemble, decompile, reverse engineer or create derivative works based on the whole, or any part, of the Program nor attempt to do any such things except to the extent that (by virtue of section 296A of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988) such actions cannot be prohibited because they are essential for the purpose of achieving inter-operability of the Program with another software program, and provided that the information obtained by you during such activities:
(i)is used only for the purpose of achieving inter-operability of the Program with another software program; and
(ii)is not unnecessarily disclosed or communicated to any third party without the XXXX’s prior written consent; and
(iii)is not used to create any software which is substantially similar to the Program.
(g)remove any proprietary notices or labels from the Program or otherwise modify the Program without the prior written consent of the XXXX; and
(h)exploit this Program or any of its parts commercially, including but not limited to use at a cyber cafe, computer gaming centre or any other location-based site. XXXXX, may offer a separate Site Licence Agreement to permit you to make the Program available for commercial use; please refer to the contact information below.

3.2You acknowledge that the Program has not been developed to meet your individual requirements and that it is therefore your responsibility to ensure that the facilities and functions of the Program as described in the Documentation meet your requirements.

3.3You acknowledge that the Program may not be free of errors or bugs and you agree that the existence of any minor errors shall not constitute a breach of this Licence.




and is pretty much standard... and excepting for points 3.2 and 3.3, is almost word for word identical to that of the EULA for a $30k motion control program I use in theatre

T}{OR
01-14-2011, 11:03 PM
That's smokescreen-talk. To counter piracy a working copy protection would be sufficient. DRM is about tying customers to the publisher, introduce more and more stringent DRM schemes and pay-DLCs, prepare the way for true cloud-computing and ultimately force pay-to-play (even if called "club membership fee" to ease the public outcry) for any kind of game. This is what DRM is about - it's about introducing various new ways of squeezing even more money out of customers, money which will flow to the Publisher alone and which will not be used to develop better games. And this is why I believe DRM is inacceptable while copy protection is.

Well said. However, there is no such thing as working copy protection. :)

The latest attempts (SHV and Assassin's Creed) were, amongst other stuff already mentioned - to prevent re-sales.

All in all some very strong arguments against DRM.

yellonet
01-14-2011, 11:10 PM
Indeed. And those conditions get successively worse for the customer. And everyone's cheering about that :confused:Exactly... makes you wonder :(

Wolf_Rider
01-14-2011, 11:17 PM
@ KG26_Alpha

see what I mean ;)

yellonet
01-14-2011, 11:20 PM
Nah... I understood your answer

my question which I put to you... you're twisting and detracting away a little there and getting into areas of trading law

how do you define: use it the way you want to?I want to use a game by just installing it and then playing it, no strings attached, I just want the game, nothing else, I do not want to be constantly online, I don't want any root kits and other malware installed.
I mean, games are just becoming more and more restricted, and some users are just cheering it on, I don't get that.

well, you've only got the thieves/ pirates to thank for that... but, in fairness, I don't agree with being held to a constant online connect to run the sim/ game either (as I've said before), which is different to an online activation yada, yada.Blaming the pirates is just buying into the rhetoric of the market, oh yeah... there's pirates, so now all non-pirates have to be punished?
That's just the same that goes on in the world, politicians use the terrorist-excuse to dismantle our civil liberties and bit by bit introduce the police state, "it's for your protection...".

nearmiss
01-14-2011, 11:35 PM
Blaming the pirates is just buying into the rhetoric of the market, oh yeah... there's pirates, so now all non-pirates have to be punished?I don't think I'm punished buying software. I have a clear conscience and feel good about my purchase --- even if I'm just getting a lifetime loan of it.

I appreciate people like Oleg, who give it their best. I want to support that kind of effort, also if I had my choice... I'd prefer to buy it with download so more of the money would go to Oleg.

KG26_Alpha
01-14-2011, 11:51 PM
That's the point you are not buying the software, just the right to use it.

And I give up lol.

SlipBall
01-15-2011, 12:01 AM
The game must be protected at all cost:grin:

Wolf_Rider
01-15-2011, 12:05 AM
I want to use a game by just installing it and then playing it, no strings attached, I just want the game, nothing else, I do not want to be constantly online, I don't want any root kits and other malware installed.



I think we're in agreement there basically but what would be the problem, from your point of view, with online activation and online de activation (in case of system upgrade), as well an authentication check for access to a multiplayer server and an authentication check for game/ sim patch/ upgrade?





Blaming the pirates is just buying into the rhetoric of the market, oh yeah... there's pirates, so now all non-pirates have to be punished?



leaving the politics aside... its the small % which bugger things up for every body else - fact - everything from public telephones to dodging objects being thrown from overhead foot bridges, to even the louts at the local on a Saturday night.

Avimimus
01-15-2011, 05:06 AM
I hate to rain on your parade there buddy, but how did you extrapolate all that from my post you quoted?

out in the rural or remote community of Canada? how do they get their email then?


Ah... you don't get e-mail or you pull it in using an old dial-up modem (28.8k anyone?). If there aren't any land lines you can do point-to-point with short-wave radio. Of course, if you're in the high Arctic most Inuit communities have satellite, but the rest of us further south are screwed ;)

However, you can install your software and even activate it in the city and then ship the computer to wherever you're going.


Or, (this bit is for Avimimus as well) with your shiny new car... that you've replaced the engine and running gear with the engine and running gear from another manufacturer and wonder why the dealer you've bought car from won't honour your shop warranty?

I don't like being a kept pet. I'd rather be able to fix things myself or have multiple sources of spares than have my activities "owned" by a warranty.

Similarly, I'd rather own my appliances than lease them. I certainly wouldn't want to give those running a warranty keys to my house and permission for them to muck about without telling me what they were doing or asking permission to enter the property.

This might be worth reading (in case you missed it):
http://web.archive.org/web/20050212062232/http://www.dur.ac.uk/~dml0www/emancipn.html

Wolf_Rider
01-15-2011, 06:35 AM
so, what you seem to be saying is... you don't update your system and won't update your system/ game or sim in fear of that being too intrusive.
You also seem to be saying that while satellite connections exist all around you, you won't adopt the technology.
You haven't replied to your poor extrapolation of my post (ie where was automatic forced update mentioned?)and

and what has religion got to do with this?

addman
01-15-2011, 09:27 AM
I don't think I'm punished buying software. I have a clear conscience and feel good about my purchase --- even if I'm just getting a lifetime loan of it.

I appreciate people like Oleg, who give it their best. I want to support that kind of effort, also if I had my choice... I'd prefer to buy it with download so more of the money would go to Oleg.

This kinda how I feel also.

GerritJ9
01-15-2011, 05:28 PM
Is it 100% certain UBI will be the publisher in the Rest of the World? If so, I won't be buying it. And Oleg can thank UBI for their BoontyBox fiasco with 4.05m (I haven't forgiven UBI for that one) and their treatment of the buyers of SH5 for that.
Instead, I'll wait until I go to Kiev again and buy the Ukrainian version.

Avimimus
01-15-2011, 06:35 PM
so, what you seem to be saying is... you don't update your system and won't update your system/ game or sim in fear of that being too intrusive.

You also seem to be saying that while satellite connections exist all around you, you won't adopt the technology.

You haven't replied to your poor extrapolation of my post (ie where was automatic forced update mentioned?)and

and what has religion got to do with this?

Ah...

1) I don't like updating software if I can't look at the files being updated beforehand. The same goes for windows update (which can produce compatibility problems). I prefer manual installs. There is no reason why most updates to software would require you to download and run an executable (when a copy command or use of batch files would do). So, yes - depending on how the patching system works.

2) Adopting a satellite internet connection would cost thousands of dollars per year. The reason why Inuit communities get them has to do with resource extraction and the small number of communities in the Arctic (just over fifty settlements). I'm much further south.

3) Ah... I was just pointing out that I don't really like warranties and the automatic update and/or silently contacting servers that we see in Steam or some DRM schemes is much more like giving the support company permission to enter your house at any time, change things around (as well as look around) and possibly try to "fix" things which are already working and accidentally make them no longer work. Few people would accept this treatment in the non-digital world.

4) The document is actually the 1861 emancipation of the Serfs in Russia. The fact that it is couched in religious terms is a accident of history. The basic point is that we are accepting becoming tenants or even serfs in the digital world - while many of us seek to own our homes in the material world.

There is no reason why we should have to accept this double standard.

proton45
01-15-2011, 07:11 PM
IDK why people are freaking out...I run a lot of different kinds of software and almost all of them required some kind of "online activation". Music programs, graphics and animation software all require some kind of internet connection to activate them...this is 2011 and pretty much all software is heading in this direction.

Its not really that big a deal...I dont really like the idea of "authentication/security programs" but, unless, they are a huge CPU hog that is running all the time, it doesn't bother me...

The Kraken
01-15-2011, 07:32 PM
Do most of these installations also require a permanent internet connection to run and stop working when your connection or the company servers are down? As this is what Ubi has introduced last year as their superbly customer-friendly online service. And underlined more than once that they don't care if people complain about it; they'll keep using it for various titles as it provides so many superb advantages. Maybe over the years we'll learn to appreciate it - then we can say again, "everyone is doing this, so what's the big deal" ;)

For CoD all indications are this will not be used, but until there's an official confirmation you shouldn't be surprised that people are cautious. And of course it's possible that a later mandatory update will insert this "service" into the game.

Hey it's all in the EULA and that must not be questioned! :-P

SEE
01-15-2011, 09:31 PM
At the end of the day enthusiasts are free to 'object' and not buy or 'accept' and install. I willl wait and see the 'devil in the detail' before I make a decision. SOW is a product that I can take or leave, I am more interested in TD's upgrades TBH.

Wolf_Rider
01-16-2011, 12:35 AM
Ah...

1) I don't like updating software if I can't look at the files being updated beforehand. The same goes for windows update (which can produce compatibility problems). I prefer manual installs. There is no reason why most updates to software would require you to download and run an executable (when a copy command or use of batch files would do). So, yes - depending on how the patching system works.

2) Adopting a satellite internet connection would cost thousands of dollars per year. The reason why Inuit communities get them has to do with resource extraction and the small number of communities in the Arctic (just over fifty settlements). I'm much further south.

3) Ah... I was just pointing out that I don't really like warranties and the automatic update and/or silently contacting servers that we see in Steam or some DRM schemes is much more like giving the support company permission to enter your house at any time, change things around (as well as look around) and possibly try to "fix" things which are already working and accidentally make them no longer work. Few people would accept this treatment in the non-digital world.

4) The document is actually the 1861 emancipation of the Serfs in Russia. The fact that it is couched in religious terms is a accident of history. The basic point is that we are accepting becoming tenants or even serfs in the digital world - while many of us seek to own our homes in the material world.

There is no reason why we should have to accept this double standard.



you've got some problems then, son and you still haven't explained your extrapolation of my post

WTE_Galway
01-16-2011, 11:12 PM
For every person that plays online games, buys goods online and lives in sex chat rooms 24/7 there must be several who have no internet just a PC.

For some odd reason those people without internet access don't post here. I wonder why :D

BigC208
01-16-2011, 11:37 PM
If my aunt had bollocks she would be my uncle....
Lets just wait and see how it all works out before getting all worked up.

Rodolphe
01-17-2011, 11:26 AM
...


If my aunt had bollocks she would be my uncle....



... or she could be an Androgyne . :grin:



No offence for sure !

...

SlipBall
01-17-2011, 12:03 PM
Possible hermaphrodite:grin:

K_Freddie
01-17-2011, 12:24 PM
Interesting to note that some 'key' people are indicating.. 'No DRM' :cool:

JG53Frankyboy
01-17-2011, 04:52 PM
from an UBI official in the german UBI forum:
only an online activation once is needed.

hiro
01-17-2011, 07:44 PM
WTE and CSthor have hit the nail on the head.

DRM's true purpose is commercial, not security, its for the company to lock YOU in, and prevent YOU from selling what YOU bought to someone else. So if 2 years down the road, you're done with the game, your friend hears about the fun times you had and you just can't give him the game, he has to buy it.

The companies aren't stupid, the big companies know some angry programmer on the dev team will sneak out the code for the DRM / security, or a copy of the game will be gone over by a fine tooth comb the finest programmers and hackers and a crack found in hours. Any popular game or awesome game has it happen to it.

Starcraft 2 is an example, when the beta release was made open to the public, my friend had a pen drive with a full working beta, just transfer to your hard drive, run the install, boom, had SC 2 beta without registering.

The publishers want to lock in the 90% of people who like to game but don't know too much about the nuts and bolts behind it, and make the most $$ out of it. They know they'll never get a cent from the hacker / friends of hackers / pirate "nations". But the bigger base of people (and richer) nations that don't know, will pay.

Even if it means infuriating good paying customers. Look at World of Warcraft. They just had a new iteration of that game. First day, no one could get in, crashes, lags etc. But the forums were full of those posts by 1 out of a million that could get in and tell the glory of the game.

And all those angry players that threaten to quit are still playing a week later when the login load is balanced, new servers are up.


That's smokescreen-talk. To counter piracy a working copy protection would be sufficient. DRM is about tying customers to the publisher, introduce more and more stringent DRM schemes and pay-DLCs, prepare the way for true cloud-computing and ultimately force pay-to-play (even if called "club membership fee" to ease the public outcry) for any kind of game. This is what DRM is about - it's about introducing various new ways of squeezing even more money out of customers, money which will flow to the Publisher alone and which will not be used to develop better games. And this is why I believe DRM is inacceptable while copy protection is.



The pirate scare is a little bit like the mythical terrorist scare, its exaggerated out of all proportion.

Its well documented that:

a) commercial pirates will crack any DRM if the title is worth selling out of Shanghai
b) casual pirates tend to be collectors who would never buy the product anyway.

The REAL purpose of these online DRM is to prevent resale of the products second hand on ebay once the user is bored with them. It also makes the move to "pay per year/month" software eventually much easier.

By the way I am amazed how many people on these forums seem to get outraged at NG for insisting on royalties and then turn around and endorse onerous DRM schemes. Seems a bit hypocritical really.

K_Freddie
01-17-2011, 09:42 PM
This opens the market for non-DRM type games, where there will instantaneous sales, en-mass, maximising profits, as there will be no expenses of upkeep of DRM servers, DRM staff, and anything related to the maintenance thereof.

Nah sorry! DRM/Steam = bad, very bad business plan.. in fact it's gross stupid and short-sighted, fueled by 'greed'... but that is normal for an accountant.
Not to mention the pirates who just bypass DRM/Steam.

:grin:

Avimimus
01-17-2011, 10:52 PM
from an UBI official in the german UBI forum:
only an online activation once is needed.

Yay!

=FPS=Salsero
01-18-2011, 02:59 AM
Well, I won't be playing the game often (if at all). And I do not think anyone at UBI will read this.

IMHO, it will be fantastic if it would be possible to join as a gunner (or maybe flak operator), but not as a pilot, on the computer that was not activated.

Same applies to the tanks/ships/etc - gunners should be recruit-able among non-technical guys for free./

Though FPS shooter authors will sue Oleg for dumping, I afraid :)

------------
And I hope that in some point in future DRM will be dropped. As it was in Il-2 itself.

Wolf_Rider
01-18-2011, 12:32 PM
That's good news on the one time activation

LoBiSoMeM
01-18-2011, 12:49 PM
I like Steam.

I buy games, install them in any computer I use, and play. With working auto-updates enable, save time.

It's a fully working sell platform. It's made by Valve, I like Valve. I will buy Cliffs Of Dover over Steam, will fly into the game untill my arms get sore and have a lot of fun without even think about corporative evil plans.

The life is short. IL-2 is about the fun part of it.

brando
01-18-2011, 12:59 PM
i like steam.

I buy games, install them in any computer i use, and play. With working auto-updates enable, save time.

It's a fully working sell platform. It's made by valve, i like valve. I will buy cliffs of dover over steam, will fly into the game untill my arms get sore and have a lot of fun without even think about corporative evil plans.

The life is short. Il-2 is about the fun part of it.

+1

b

zauii
01-18-2011, 01:30 PM
If the DRM stops anyone from buying this masterpiece from Oleg/Maddox Games then they can **** off in my eyes, I couldnt care less about people whining about DRM.

These days developers >> CAN << indeed assume that the majoirty of their users will have acccess to a stable broadband connection, and if you dont then well sorry, sh*t happens.

The Kraken
01-18-2011, 01:46 PM
If the DRM stops anyone from buying this masterpiece from Oleg/Maddox Games then they can **** off in my eyes, I couldnt care less about people whining about DRM.

Thanks for such a mature and balanced contribution to this topic :rolleyes:

These days developers >> CAN << indeed assume that the majoirty of their users will have acccess to a stable broadband connection, and if you dont then well sorry, sh*t happens.

Funny how Oleg says the opposite.

addman
01-18-2011, 02:00 PM
Funny how Oleg says the opposite.

Good then, that Olegs words aren't law :) I respect Oleg as a game developer but I don't always agree with his opinions. Isn't that nice though, being able to vent your own opinions here without being judged by others? ;)

csThor
01-18-2011, 02:38 PM
If the DRM stops anyone from buying this masterpiece from Oleg/Maddox Games then they can **** off in my eyes, I couldnt care less about people whining about DRM.

These days developers >> CAN << indeed assume that the majoirty of their users will have acccess to a stable broadband connection, and if you dont then well sorry, sh*t happens.

The snobism of some people here never ceases to amaze me. And it does induce the urge to puke ...

http://images.zaazu.com/img/thumbsdown-fail-thumbs-down-reject-smiley-emoticon-000748-medium.gif

Avimimus
01-18-2011, 02:46 PM
Oleg knows that many in Eastern Europe either cannot afford or do not live near high-speed connections (similar to Canada). He also has state that it is the distributor (not the developer) that attaches the DRM.

These days developers >> CAN << indeed assume that the majoirty of their users will have acccess to a stable broadband connection, and if you dont then well sorry, sh*t happens.

Let me guess - You're from a reasonably large urban center, in a developed country and you're solidly middle-class with a comfortable economic life. It is a stretch - but I can guess that you're an American (as you guys seem to fear, rather than look out for, your neighbors).

Is any of this correct? How far off am I?

LoBiSoMeM
01-18-2011, 03:05 PM
Oleg knows that many in Eastern Europe either cannot afford or do not live near high-speed connections (similar to Canada). He also has state that it is the distributor (not the developer) that attaches the DRM.



Let me guess - You're from a reasonably large urban center, in a developed country and you're solidly middle-class with a comfortable economic life. It is a stretch - but I can guess that you're an American (as you guys seem to fear, rather than look out for, your neighbors).

Is any of this correct? How far off am I?

I don't know obout others, but I live in Brazil, I'm not rich, and if someone can build a system that will run OK CoD, MAYBE this consumer can afford some internet connection to activate a game...

If you live in a rural area of Bangladesh, you have other major problems to deal than "intrusive DRM". We aren't "snob", just pointing that the MAJORITY of people whinning about DRM aren't poor people... It's plain clear.

Simple as that. Is more a "moral' problem, and I agree with the criticism about DRM. DRM sucks. But isn't a "poor x rich" issue.

addman
01-18-2011, 03:16 PM
I don't know obout others, but I live in Brazil, I'm not rich, and if someone can build a system that will run OK CoD, MAYBE this consumer can afford some internet connection to activate a game...

If you live in a rural area of Bangladesh, you have other major problems to deal than "intrusive DRM". We aren't "snob", just pointing that the MAJORITY of people whinning about DRM aren't poor people... It's plain clear.

Simple as that. Is more a "moral' problem, and I agree with the criticism about DRM. DRM sucks. But isn't a "poor x rich" issue.

+1

drafting
01-18-2011, 03:39 PM
It's actually funny how many people in the US don't have access to broadband...

My uncle lives pretty far outside of any nearby town, and he has no option but a really crappy dial-up line. He also absolutely loves combat sims of all forms on the PC (his favorite being WWII subs and planes).

Well, Ubisoft has already effectively shut him out of Silent Hunter V, and now they're potentially going to shut him out of Oleg's new BoB sim (depending on their final DRM implementation)! :evil:

Maybe I'll end up boycotting Cliffs of Dover just like I'm still boycotting Silent Hunter V... Hey, Ubisoft! Not everyone has a constant internet connection (or one at all)! :rolleyes:

LoBiSoMeM
01-18-2011, 05:06 PM
Maybe I'll end up boycotting Cliffs of Dover just like I'm still boycotting Silent Hunter V... Hey, Ubisoft! Not everyone has a constant internet connection (or one at all)! :rolleyes:

You don't need constant internet connection to activate ONE TIME a title.

IL-2:CoD isn't Silent Hunter V.

drafting
01-18-2011, 08:10 PM
You don't need constant internet connection to activate ONE TIME a title.

IL-2:CoD isn't Silent Hunter V.


I certainly hope so. Ubi's DRM implementation will definitely determine the course of things...

WTE_Galway
01-18-2011, 10:57 PM
One time activation is still rather annoying but a bit less onerous than continual connection, at least you can take your gaming rig to work or a friends to activate or maybe even borrow a wireless internet modem for the day.

Its an interesting psychological quirk that people that spend all day and night online just assume the whole world is also online.

Sven
01-18-2011, 11:21 PM
why is this thread still flowing? there is no DRM , only once you have to be online, like you are now on the forums..