IL-2 and OpenGL

[Flanker35M]

S!

This is directed to TD as they have the knowledge and access to the inner works of IL-2 engine, namely the OpenGL/shader part. So PLEASE leave out any fanboyism from EITHER brand :) New year, fresh start!

IL-2 uses a rather old and dated version of OpenGL and was optimized to NV in this case. This hampers the AMD users with lower FPS etc. Now both brands support OpenGL 4.1 in their drivers and features. Furthermore AMD cards fully support the features that were new at yearly years of IL-2, like Shader 3.0 etc. So there should be no restriction to allow AMD cards to use the Shader 3.0 feats at all anymore.

So the question is could TD check this and see if the OpenG/shader stuff can be upgraded to a more recent version? This would help ALL players with better performance. Sure not an item of most importance, but for sure havíng quite an impact on the game and how it runs.

So how about it TD? A possibility in future to look into this? I do not plan to change my GPU for one game when all others run perfectly fine :)

[albx]

+1 :)

I think it is a good idea but probably will need too much work?

[FS~Phat]

I have been able to run hardware shaders with water 3 for quite a while now on both 4870 and 5870 ATI cards. They just wont support water 4 which isnt really any better than water 3 anway. I'd rather ATI get their act together to support IL2 with proper crossfireX support so my quadfire setup can push some extra frames with high antialiasing!

[Ernst]

+1 :grin:

[Flanker35M]

S!

Just tested on 4.10m with AMD 6970HD. Setting Water=3 reverts to Water=1. Highest setting for AMD is AFAIK Water=2. Anyways, back to topic.

[SturmKreator]

I ask that way back then, said to them was impossible, very difficult

[EJGr.Ost_Caspar]

Regarding water... from readme patch 4.04m:

Graphics:

Reworked water render

To see the updated water render please modify the Water section in the file conf.ini in the [Render_OpenGL] section.

Water = 0 or 1 – No changes in version 4.03.
Water = 2 – This mode is visually similar to water = 3 but it runs on ATI cards 9800, X800, X1800 and later models.
Water = 3 – Fast render mode with Vertex Shaders 3.0 (NVIDIA 6600 and later models)
Water = 4 – Better quality mode with Vertex Shaders 3.0 (NVIDIA 6800 and later models)
Reminder:
ATI supports modes: 0, 1, 2
NVIDIA 6600 and later models support: 0, 1, 2, 3, 4
NVIDIA cards before the series 6xxx support 0, 1, 2 (2 is not recommended)


I don't think, anything has changed since then.

[Flanker35M]

S!

So can anything be done to this as AMD fully supports this shader these days? Would be great to have some update in this department as it would be good for so many :)

[beazil]

Sadly this issue is a driver problem with AMD is it not?

I'm visiting my folks in winnipeg right now, and actually helped my stepdad swap out a 4850 for a gf275. What a difference in the visuals (tweaked for both cards of course).

There are STILL opengl issues for AMD/ATI users who want to play IL2, despite the fact it's ancient software by modern standards (no offense to devs or TeamD members intended). We've been able to milk this one for a long time. I'm sure many of your fans would be most grateful if you (team D) could find a way to work with ATI/AMD to correct this long standing issue.

Thanks for listening. :)

[KG26_Alpha]

S!

This is directed to TD as they have the knowledge and access to the inner works of IL-2 engine, namely the OpenGL/shader part. So PLEASE leave out any fanboyism from EITHER brand :) New year, fresh start!

IL-2 uses a rather old and dated version of OpenGL and was optimized to NV in this case. This hampers the AMD users with lower FPS etc. Now both brands support OpenGL 4.1 in their drivers and features. Furthermore AMD cards fully support the features that were new at yearly years of IL-2, like Shader 3.0 etc. So there should be no restriction to allow AMD cards to use the Shader 3.0 feats at all anymore.

So the question is could TD check this and see if the OpenG/shader stuff can be upgraded to a more recent version? This would help ALL players with better performance. Sure not an item of most importance, but for sure havíng quite an impact on the game and how it runs.

So how about it TD? A possibility in future to look into this? I do not plan to change my GPU for one game when all others run perfectly fine :)

Sorry to interject on this but ..............

To understand the OGL shader part of IL2 you need to be able to program in OGL and make new reworked water renders for the shaders to work and asking TD to do this is a probably beyond them as the il2core.dll will need to be reworked also and this file is a nightmare inside :)

ATI should be the ones to ask for optimizing the driver.

[HanneG]

4.04 was released, what, five years ago? ATi cards at the time didn't support some SM3 features (VTF, if I remember correctly). All recent cards, 3xxx+ do. You can't be serious about performance, anything that is not totally ghetto smokes Il-2, whether it's NV, AMD, Intel.

[Flanker35M]

S!

Easy enough to check for the optimizations and what is enabled when you use either NV or AMD card: shift + tab to bring up the console when a track starts ora mission. When NV card is selected and properly detected(have tested this) you get more shader nad NV optimizations for use. With AMD card the list is shorter and it loads a generic 3D algorithm.

These days AMD can do all the same tricks in OGL than NV can. And there is not much AMD can do if the code is specifically tailored to suit NV. Or should they create a profile in drivers that cheats IL-2 to believe all cards are NV? ;) I do not think they would do that.

I have ran nVidia and AMD with IL-2, there is a clear difference between them. For example now even IL-2 runs at solid 60fps with VSync on I get some stutters and slowdowns in certain conditions where NV did not have them. All because of a piece of code done for NV.

There has been discussions about this that if it would be possible to do anything. Sure yes, but not for free as TD or other enthusiasts do. So the ball is at TD now IF they at some time could even check this. IF not then must live with it :)

[Xallo]

I still can't run effects=2 on my rig! It's worse fps than DCS:a10c at low level, when blasting all guns on a 110!

[Flanker35M]

S!

Even Oleg has said the Effects=2 is buggy and NOT recommended. True FPS killer on any rig out there. So stick to Effects=0 or 1.

[KG26_Alpha]

S!


These days AMD can do all the same tricks in OGL than NV can. And there is not much AMD can do if the code is specifically tailored to suit NV. Or should they create a profile in drivers that cheats IL-2 to believe all cards are NV? ;) I do not think they would do that.





You do know this:

The OGL config is the only optimization area, this is where IL2 applies the settings.

Perhaps you could start there as IL2 wont recognize what GPU you are using unless you tell it, in the OGL, if the ATI drivers are optimized as Nvidia are then they will run the same settings if not then ATI have to make the drivers to run the same as Nvidia.

I cant for the life of me see what it has to do with TD

Its a ATI thing surely ?

[Flanker35M]

S!

It is. The thing goes back to original IL-2 and had email exchange with Oleg and programmer of IL2 about it. IL2 is NV optimized due various reasons. Period. On the other hand it could be hard to press AMD to make any specific changes to their drivers for a game over 10 years old when there is a ton of "boom headshot" games that draw most attention ;)

I can set my card as NV in IL2 setup but if looking at the console you see that the game reverts to a generic 3D algorithm no matter what. Same applies to water, set it to 3 or 4 and you end up with 1.

Also the slight issues with AMD seems to be the water mainly. I benched this a lot lately and it seems that the water itself is a piece of cake for AMD but when Perfect is enabled the sky reflection moving on the water surface causes slight stutter at certain angles and loss of FPS combined with water splashes. This was not the case with NV card I used.

Anyways if TD could check this then it would be nice. If too much of a work then no can do. Yet for one game I do not change my GPU, other games run perfectly with AMD cards ;)

[KG26_Alpha]

For fun :)

I used to do a bit of work with PE Explorer before my brain exploded a few years ago.



Open up the graphics.dll in IL2 and have a look in there.

You will see the various calls on the shaders and 3d management.

Its no easy thing you are asking for TD probably impossible without the original coder who made the .dll

Unless they can put an extra line in the conf.ini OGL section for ATI to use NV shaders say like

TexATI.Nv=1

then use the dll to link over.

Pure fantasy though :(

[Flanker35M]

S!

Is this PE Explorer a free software? IF so, then worth taking a look :) Was there any structure in the dll that could tell anything how it works for various cards? The IL-2 programmer did help with AMD driver issue(blue hue and blocky text) by giving information what to look for in drivers. IF he could be contacted again he possibly could help? That would be great :)

It is easy to test the stutter issue for example with AMD over water. I set it to 2 and fly over water at around 100-500m. Take external view and look straight down above your plane and you see a slight stutter even FPS is a solid 60fps with VSync. Now move the camera to a lesser angle, say 80-45deg and the stutter is gone. Strange ain't it? Above ground this does not happen.

[KG26_Alpha]

It will show the structure of the file and some other things too :)

Well I did look at it briefly to see what was causing the "Nvidia Ring" after asking for a fix since the 8800 series cards but was told the programmers no longer available.

[Flanker35M]

S!

NV got the ring on water yet AMD does not have it at all. Kind of odd. This was the first thing I noticed with the 6970HD compared to my previous card 580GTX. Really, both NV and AMD offer damned good performance in any game you throw at them. IL-2 is the only one I've seen a difference with AMD.

Hmm..gotta ask around a bit ;)

[Flanker35M]

S!

After rigorous testing the biggest hit on FPS is when using LandShading=3. If using 2 then FPS is same as when using NV card, within only a few FPS. So maybe TD could look into this item?