Friday 2010-11-12 Dev. update and Discussion [Archive] - Page 2

Jaguar

11-13-2010, 05:25 PM

Battle of Britain is because
- it wasn't modelled in Il-2.
- It is a good start for the new series that to expand with new titles based on BoB in both directions of historical period of time (more in future).

the second is main definition. It is optimization of development - next would cost less using part of modelled objects from previous title. There is other definitions, but this one is main

Hope this answer is very clear.

Mr. Maddox,
I do hope that the expansion of the series begining with BoB will follow the chronology of World War II. This can be an oportunity for your Sim to be a grand teaching aid. What flight sim enthusiast would not want to bring the virtual world into the class room. I do know that you are in a business to make money and be prosperous. Please give this some thought. In the past I have read where some add ons were made due to the interest of the designer (OstFront) when others like myself wanted more Pacific / Western Europe maps planes ect. I understand that everybody wants thier nation represented. If you use the optimization model that you spoke of, plus following the historical period of the time. Your new series will work in educating the world about global conflict. Ps. plus give myself and thousands of others reasons to join a virtual fraternity of combat fight. I am hoping for a series that will be like a scale. Having the ability to shift weight to either side with equal movement.

Victorlz

11-13-2010, 05:34 PM

Hi Oleg
the videos are great and the effects on stuka were amazing.
Only one thing seems wrong to me, and is the color of the 109 E cockpit. As I said earlier, this was in rlm 02 with exception of the panel that was rlm 66.
In the videos all cockpit is in rlm 66 :confused:

Dietger

11-13-2010, 06:18 PM

Well Im not concerned so much about Oleg using false reflections or wrong colors. He already mentioned that the new sim will be more dynamic in lightning.
...With true dynamic lights all colors change everytime anyway!
Nice Effects btw!

Im glad Russia is sticking to flight simulations and does it so well!
All up to date Flights sims are Russian made!

More important would be to know, how many Spits and Emils made it into the game! We have more then the MKI Spit, no?

Dietger

dali

11-13-2010, 06:20 PM

Do you mean slats?
Yes.

I don't understand the word flaperons

flaperon is a lift device, which combines flaps and elerons.

they are very popular with ultra light aviation...and recently with new generation of fighters.

http://www.culverprops.com/images/new-back-yard-15.JPG

Richie

11-13-2010, 06:53 PM

Crystal clear ;) The BoB is my favourite period, so I was extremely happy when I first heard that you were modelling it.
The reasons you have stated are very practical, too. I hope that, once SoW is released, campaign-builders will work on a Battle of France addition as this would be great to set the scene before the BoB. ;)

North Africa here Philip. In my opinion although you could argue also The Battle Of Britain to me I think the Luftwaffe fighters were at their zenith in comparison with the allied fighters with the F4. I love flying it and love the atmosphere of Libya ect.

philip.ed

11-13-2010, 07:05 PM

North Africa here Philip. In my opinion although you could argue also The Battle Of Britain to me I think the Luftwaffe fighters were at their zenith in comparison with the allied fighters with the F4. I love flying it and love the atmosphere of Libya ect.

Aye, I'd love that too; I think Oleg has said he will be modelling it, which is great ;) BoB has all the bones for a North-African add-on so hopefully 2 years, be sure ;)

Richie

11-13-2010, 07:09 PM

Audio for that video also. 6' 3" Hannes Trautloft. I always wondered how he flew that 109.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tah2IxcVNyI

zakkandrachoff

11-13-2010, 07:17 PM

amazing.

*Is missing a very more complete destruction with bullets hole on wings and fuselage (slow degrading) of a heinkel or dornier

*and in the end.. how is this sim will call?

STORM OF WAR: BATTLE OF BRITAIN
or
IL-2 STURMOVIK: CLIFF OF DOVER ???

*the finnal map: size?

*will be a in cockpit real map in the fighters including airfields and targets?

*will be activity peronal in the airfield. (guys walking, technics working in the plane, doing signals and some other thinks?)

*is missing a video of pilot view head out the cockpit in take off

i dont like so much de withe line in the wing when we see black in the blackground. i dont know if i explain this ok. but i can live with that.
http://i970.photobucket.com/albums/ae188/zakkandrachoff/storm-of-war-infire.jpg

nice video c1-maddoxteam-olga

Richie

11-13-2010, 07:27 PM

Aye, I'd love that too; I think Oleg has said he will be modelling it, which is great ;) BoB has all the bones for a North-African add-on so hopefully 2 years, be sure ;)

Well my squad was made for the desert...If you can wake me up

II./27_Rich

philip.ed

11-13-2010, 07:36 PM

Well my squad was made for the desert...If you can wake me up

II./27_Rich

:grin: I'll be strafing you on the ground in my Tomahawk then :cool:

Foo'bar

11-13-2010, 08:07 PM

i dont like so much de withe line in the wing when we see black in the blackground

You know what? Even Oleg and team doesn't like that. But because it's WIP (you know) they will iron it out...

:rolleyes:

JAMF

11-13-2010, 08:14 PM

i dont like so much de withe line in the wing when we see black in the blackground. i dont know if i explain this ok. but i can live with that.

You know what? Even Oleg and team doesn't like that. But because it's WIP (you know) they will iron it out...
Already ironed out, even.

This is corrected. It was a glitch when using antialiasing feature of the video card. But videowas recorded before that bug was removed.

Necrobaron

11-13-2010, 08:28 PM

No markings on that, only colors. Markings, riveting/panels, weathering comes all from separate layers wich aren't editable (if I've got luthier's words right).

Finally no swatiks any more ;)

This isn't directed at you specifically Foo'bar and I'll probably regret even making this point since it'll probably make me a "bad guy" but...

That'd be too bad if markings are not editable. In the case of WWII-era German planes specifically, it bugs me when history takes a backseat to censorship and political correctness. As much as I disagree with it, I accept that some countries like to whitewash history by making some symbols illegal. That's their perogative and I understand that Maddox Games doesn't want to open themselves up for litigation (though I think it's ludicrous to think a flight sim would be a lightning rod for Neo-Nazis). However if SoW, or whatever it's called now, is going to ship with missing aircraft markings, I'd at least like to keep the avenue open for 3rd parties to add the correct markings for those that can legally view historical correctness.

I'm certainly no Nazi sympathizer but for all the nitpicking about inconsequential details, it's surprising to me that more people aren't bugged by the lack of historically correct markings on German planes. Like it or not, the swastika was there. To me, leaving it off is tantamount to leaving the fin flashes or roundels off RAF planes, tantamount of course not in idealogy but in historical correctness.

Ok, rant over. Sorry for veering off on a controversial tangent so...flame away!:)
________
Desire4you (http://www.girlcamfriend.com/cam/Desire4you/)

Romanator21

11-13-2010, 08:43 PM

You'd be surprised how offended people get. I built a model of a "Val" dive bomber and applied red circle decals to the wings - people called it a "Zero", and "the Kamikaze plane" and one person said, "You know what they did to my country?" I was surprised with the reaction to say the least. I guess building a model automatically makes me a sympathizer. You know, there are people who don't fly German planes in IL-2, because it is "wrong".

I wonder what will happen when I get around to making a model of a Finnish Buffalo with Hakaristi.

Anyway, the Russian version of IL-2 shipped with swastikas, and there was always a segment of code that told where they should have been applied (some place on the rudder). Programs like MAT Manager simply replace the missing texture. So, is this not going to be possible in SoW?

Oh, and the skins are 100% editable, with rivits, weathering, and bump-mapping going on top automatically. It wouldn't be that hard to photo-shop a swastika in, right?

Trumper

11-13-2010, 08:45 PM

Ok, rant over. Sorry for veering off on a controversial tangent so...flame away!:)

Well put,nothing wrong with your post.Markings that are historic and accurate should be included and able to be removed if necessary.

Splitter

11-13-2010, 08:50 PM

This isn't directed at you specifically Foo'bar and I'll probably regret even making this point since it'll probably make me a "bad guy" but...

That'd be too bad if markings are not editable. In the case of WWII-era German planes specifically, it bugs me when history takes a backseat to censorship and political correctness. As much as I disagree with it, I accept that some countries like to whitewash history by making some symbols illegal. That's their perogative and I understand that Maddox Games doesn't want to open themselves up for litigation (though I think it's ludicrous to think a flight sim would be a lightning rod for Neo-Nazis). However if SoW, or whatever it's called now, is going to ship with missing aircraft markings, I'd at least like to keep the avenue open for 3rd parties to add the correct markings for those that can legally view historical correctness.

I'm certainly no Nazi sympathizer but for all the nitpicking about inconsequential details, it's surprising to me that more people aren't bugged by the lack of historically correct markings on German planes. Like it or not, the swastika was there. To me, leaving it off is tantamount to leaving the fin flashes or roundels off RAF planes, tantamount of course not in idealogy but in historical correctness.

Ok, rant over. Sorry for veering off on a controversial tangent so...flame away!:)

Nope, you are right. That sort of censorship is silly but those countries can do what they like. I'm a bit miffed that I have to be subject to laws that don't pertain to me.

I don't REALLY care if it is there or not, but since there is no good reason for it to be omitted then it's wrong to not have it in an otherwise historically accurate sim. The ability for a third party to add them should not be curtailed.

But maybe even having that ability is a violation of the law in some countries. I suspect that is the case and why the developer will not allow such third party skins. If that's the case then I see it as those countries imposing their moral will on other countries.

Splitter

Richie

11-13-2010, 08:53 PM

:grin: I'll be strafing you on the ground in my Tomahawk then :cool:

lol

Foo'bar

11-13-2010, 08:53 PM

I accept that some countries like to whitewash history by making some symbols illegal.

Well I think that you don't want or can't get the point ;) Peace!

This is a serious topic and since english isn't my native language I prefer to say nothing more about it.

MuxaHuk

11-13-2010, 08:56 PM

there is special build-in markings editor in MainMenu->Extras.
Just two clicks, have fun :)

Richie

11-13-2010, 08:59 PM

322Sqn_Dusty

11-13-2010, 09:43 PM

Sure..ok no Swastikas in the game ..but no Finnish markings either? **Well..put it on the colorlayer then....right?**

Crunchieone

11-13-2010, 09:47 PM

Love it,love it,love it.

Necrobaron

11-13-2010, 09:54 PM

Well I think that you don't want or can't get the point ;) Peace!

This is a serious topic and since english isn't my native language I prefer to say nothing more about it.

Fair enough, but if the point is that the swastika is "bad" then it isn't a very good point. I understand full-well what the 3rd Reich's twisting of the swastika represents but I choose to try and view history objectively. I also understand that undesirable elements in Europe and elsewhere still respect the idealogy represented by the Nazi swastika and that banning it is considered a thorn in their side, but I'm a fan of free speech.

there is special build-in markings editor in MainMenu->Extras.
Just two clicks, have fun :)

Ah, interesting. Thanks for the information!

So no more swastikas?

Someone else can probably provide more detail than me but apparently Russia has outlawed the depiction of the swastika and I can appreciate that it could be a legal issue for MG if they even make it an option. It's an absurd situation, but it is what it is. I just didn't want to see the skins locked down in a way as to prevent a 3rd party from adding markings for those that can legally view them.

I don't REALLY care if it is there or not, but since there is no good reason for it to be omitted then it's wrong to not have it in an otherwise historically accurate sim. The ability for a third party to add them should not be curtailed.

This pretty much sums it up!
________
Maine Marijuana Dispensary (http://maine.dispensaries.org/)

brando

11-13-2010, 10:00 PM

This isn't directed at you specifically Foo'bar and I'll probably regret even making this point since it'll probably make me a "bad guy" but...

That'd be too bad if markings are not editable. In the case of WWII-era German planes specifically, it bugs me when history takes a backseat to censorship and political correctness. As much as I disagree with it, I accept that some countries like to whitewash history by making some symbols illegal. That's their perogative and I understand that Maddox Games doesn't want to open themselves up for litigation (though I think it's ludicrous to think a flight sim would be a lightning rod for Neo-Nazis). However if SoW, or whatever it's called now, is going to ship with missing aircraft markings, I'd at least like to keep the avenue open for 3rd parties to add the correct markings for those that can legally view historical correctness.

I'm certainly no Nazi sympathizer but for all the nitpicking about inconsequential details, it's surprising to me that more people aren't bugged by the lack of historically correct markings on German planes. Like it or not, the swastika was there. To me, leaving it off is tantamount to leaving the fin flashes or roundels off RAF planes, tantamount of course not in idealogy but in historical correctness.

Ok, rant over. Sorry for veering off on a controversial tangent so...flame away!:)

I don't think that the Germans banned the swastika emblem for reasons of "...... censorship and political correctness." I believe they did it as a reaction to one of the worst things that can happen to a nation state; namely allowing itself to be taken over by a totalitarian dictatorship and ending up being humiliated by the atrocities that were carried out in its name.
I also don't believe it's a whitewash of history. It comes across as a total rejection of the Nazi dogma and a solid declaration of German unwillingness to allow the same mistakes to be made again. It was the right decision and I for one applaud it.

FG28_Kodiak

11-13-2010, 10:01 PM

From Wikipedia:
Germany
Further information: Strafgesetzbuch § 86a

The German (and Austrian) postwar criminal code makes the public showing of the Hakenkreuz (the swastika) and other Nazi symbols illegal and punishable, except for scholarly reasons. It is even censored from the lithographs on boxes of model kits, and the decals that come in the box. Modellers seeking an accurate rendition often have to either stencil on the marking, or purchase separate decals. It is also censored from the reprints of 1930s railway timetables published by the Reichsbahn. The eagle remains, but appears to be holding a solid black circle between its talons. The swastikas on Hindu and Jain temples are exempt, as religious symbols cannot be banned in Germany.

A German fashion company was investigated for using traditional British-made folded leather buttons after complaints that they resembled swastikas. In response, Esprit destroyed two hundred thousand catalogues.[65][66]
...
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hakenkreuz#Post-WWII_stigmatization_in_Western_countries)
If Oleg will sell his Game in Germany and Austria (Germany is a great Market for Computer Games) there should be no Hakenkreuz visible in the game and no option to enable it.

Jaguar

11-13-2010, 10:04 PM

Friendly_flyer

11-13-2010, 10:07 PM

No markings on that, only colors. Markings, riveting/panels, weathering comes all from separate layers wich aren't editable (if I've got luthier's words right).

If you make your own skin, you generally want your own markings on them. I suppose the markings can be turned off like in IL2? Some of us skinners also like to ad things like dirt, over-painted damage etc. It won't look good on a very small file, no matter if the rivets and lines are in another layer.

Necrobaron

11-13-2010, 10:11 PM

Sure..ok no Swastikas in the game ..but no Finnish markings either? **Well..put it on the colorlayer then....right?**

I'd doubt it, though it has no connection with Nazism. Like the Nazi swastika, Von Rosen's cross could be assessed in the old IL-2 series, but it was not available by default. It's amazing that some people have allowed a symbol that, for hundreds if not thousands of years, stood for good luck and prosperity by various cultures around the world be soiled by the evil of a political party that lasted for a mere 25 years.
________
Homemade Vapouriser (http://vaporizer.org)

Jaguar

11-13-2010, 10:16 PM

Not so, the way for thousands of years had been changed. Nazis put the shape backward..

卍) form. Archaeological evidence of swastika-shaped ornaments dates from the Neolithic period and throughout the Iron Age and Classical Antiquity. It remains widely used in Eastern religions, specifically in Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism.

Triggaaar

11-13-2010, 10:17 PM

However if SoW, or whatever it's called now, is going to ship with missing aircraft markings, I'd at least like to keep the avenue open for 3rd parties to add the correct markings for those that can legally view historical correctness.+1 on that part. I respect the decision of countries not to show a symbol, but it is a pity if their decision impacts on others. Particularly given that the subject is those countries committing atrocities against the countries their decisions are now affecting.

The ability for a third party to add them should not be curtailed.

But maybe even having that ability is a violation of the law in some countries. I suspect that is the case and why the developer will not allow such third party skins.A simple switch (markings on/off) may be banned, but they obviously can't ban the ability for a third party to paint skins (they could ban those third parties from making certain skins available in their country, though that can be hard to police). To ban the ability to make skins would be like banning pen and paper. There’s no reason why the publishers can’t produce the game with historical markings, but only sell censored copies in countries with a ban on Nazi symbols.

Dano

11-13-2010, 10:20 PM

The choice is not really ours. It belongs to Mr Maddox himself. If he choses not to then there is nothing that anyone would be able to do about it. Voice your opinion and move on to the next topic. I would not want Oleg to interfere with my potentiall earnings or make me lose my income.

It's not really a choice is it though, Oleg is in the business to sell his sim, being unable to sell it at all in those countries that have laws against it will only result in a far bigger loss than the few who'll decide to not buy it because they aren't included. The only real choice he has is whether he leaves a way of the end user adding them post purchase or not and that will depend on how liable he is for the addition even if he is not responsible for it.

Skoshi Tiger

11-13-2010, 10:23 PM

This isn't directed at you specifically Foo'bar and I'll probably regret even making this point since it'll probably make me a "bad guy" but...

That'd be too bad if markings are not editable. In the case of WWII-era German planes specifically, it bugs me when history takes a backseat to censorship and political correctness. As much as I disagree with it, I accept that some countries like to whitewash history by making some symbols illegal. That's their perogative and I understand that Maddox Games doesn't want to open themselves up for litigation (though I think it's ludicrous to think a flight sim would be a lightning rod for Neo-Nazis). However if SoW, or whatever it's called now, is going to ship with missing aircraft markings, I'd at least like to keep the avenue open for 3rd parties to add the correct markings for those that can legally view historical correctness.

I'm certainly no Nazi sympathizer but for all the nitpicking about inconsequential details, it's surprising to me that more people aren't bugged by the lack of historically correct markings on German planes. Like it or not, the swastika was there. To me, leaving it off is tantamount to leaving the fin flashes or roundels off RAF planes, tantamount of course not in idealogy but in historical correctness.

Ok, rant over. Sorry for veering off on a controversial tangent so...flame away!:)

I understand what you’re saying and agree with you, BUT I don't think these laws are not designed to "white wash" history but to remove the symbol from use by hate groups most of whom have no direct link to the Nazi movement.

I live in a sleepy little back water of a city on the opposite side of the world to where most of the suffering and destruction occurred. I have NEVER seen a Christian church with graffiti or desecrated with anti-Christian symbols or slogans. But I have seen Mosques, Synagogues, and even a small corner shops owned by non-European owners, tagged with swastikas, messages of hate and neo-Nazi diatribe. It is something defective in the minds of these people.

The laws are created to be able to punish these people.

As a good, honest, law abiding citizens of my country (where these laws are not in place by the way) and of our world community, I have accepted that the loss of historical accuracy in a computer game is one of the prices that I have to pay because of these idiot’s. Just as I accept it doesn’t matter what your race, creed, religion or cultural background there’s still going to be a percentage of any group of people that are complete a***holes, unfortunately, at the moment, a good percentage of them seem to think that being filled with hate is cool.

Sorry for going off-topic.

Necrobaron

11-13-2010, 10:35 PM

I don't think that the Germans banned the swastika emblem for reasons of "...... censorship and political correctness." I believe they did it as a reaction to one of the worst things that can happen to a nation state; namely allowing itself to be taken over by a totalitarian dictatorship and ending up being humiliated by the atrocities that were carried out in its name.
I also don't believe it's a whitewash of history. It comes across as a total rejection of the Nazi dogma and a solid declaration of German unwillingness to allow the same mistakes to be made again. It was the right decision and I for one applaud it.

I have a great respect for Germany's people and history and hate the ruin that Hitler led them to and the evil that he committed. However, if they banned the swastika to prevent the same mistakes from being made again, they have bigger problems to worry about. I just can't fathom the stigma and hold the Nazi swastika has on some people, good or bad. I just want people to use a little reason and common sense. Banning the Nazi swastika is not a panacea.

To reiterate, I understand that Oleg's hands are effectively tied in making the swastika a default marking. While I would argue any swastikas depicted in SoW would be done so in a historical context, he doesn't want to test the legal waters and I understand this. I just don't want 3rd party to be limited by the censorship of the few.
________
Starbucks Gift Card (http://bestfreegiftcard.com/starbucks-gift-card/)

Jaguar

11-13-2010, 10:37 PM

It's not really a choice is it though, Oleg is in the business to sell his sim, being unable to sell it at all in those countries that have laws against it will only result in a far bigger loss than the few who'll decide to not buy it because they aren't included. The only real choice he has is whether he leaves a way of the end user adding them post purchase or not and that will depend on how liable he is for the addition even if he is not responsible for it.

Its Olegs business yes.
Did he have a huge loss in sales due to non swastica markings in Germany? Did my money get sent to a business that said they were based in Germany but they were not? Ie. Wings over Waves, Wings over Jungles, The Fires above. Luftkrieg the air war in Europe Operation Overlord .......... They lost money in European sales?
What is more real than I will not allow it to happen due to my leadership[ of my own company? I as the head of my company am liable for my actions . Look at the Nurenburg trials as an example.

Necrobaron

11-13-2010, 10:40 PM

I understand what you???re saying and agree with you, BUT I don't think these laws are not designed to "white wash" history but to remove the symbol from use by hate groups most of whom have no direct link to the Nazi movement.

I live in a sleepy little back water of a city on the opposite side of the world to where most of the suffering and destruction occurred. I have NEVER seen a Christian church with graffiti or desecrated with anti-Christian symbols or slogans. But I have seen Mosques, Synagogues, and even a small corner shops owned by non-European owners, tagged with swastikas, messages of hate and neo-Nazi diatribe. It is something defective in the minds of these people.

The laws are created to be able to punish these people.

As a good, honest, law abiding citizens of my country (where these laws are not in place by the way) and of our world community, I have accepted that the loss of historical accuracy in a computer game is one of the prices that I have to pay because of these idiot???s. Just as I accept it doesn???t matter what your race, creed, religion or cultural background there???s still going to be a percentage of any group of people that are complete a***holes, unfortunately, at the moment, a good percentage of them seem to think that being filled with hate is cool.

Sorry for going off-topic.

I just don't think extremists should be allowed ruin things for the rest of us. I may not agree with what they do or say, but I feel they have the right to say it. Punishment should not come at the cost of free speech, but now I'm getting even more off-topic than I was before!;)
________
New Mexico Dispensaries (http://newmexico.dispensaries.org/)

The Kraken

11-13-2010, 10:52 PM

However, if they banned the swastika to prevent the same mistakes from being made again, they have bigger problems to worry about.

Actually it was the allies, in late 1945. Blame them :)

I just want people to use a little reason and common sense.

This is primarily a legal and also a political issue. It has nothing to do with reason and common sense. That's why all these discussions here are completely pointless. Each and every argument has already been exchanged 10 years ago with Il2 and before that, with other sims.

And if user-made emblems are possible then it's a non-issue anyway.

Freycinet

11-13-2010, 11:02 PM

Dear me, the swastika debate.... yawn.

major_setback

11-13-2010, 11:08 PM

Real-time reflections?

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y129/major-setback/CoD02.jpg

Splitter

11-13-2010, 11:13 PM

... There’s no reason why the publishers can’t produce the game with historical markings, but only sell censored copies in countries with a ban on Nazi symbols....

Yes, but I think Oleg stated some time ago that he did not want to produce different versions of the game. It may also be that "producing" a historically accurate sim may be illegal in Russia. In other words, Russian law may prohibit even producing accurate software for export.

Yeah, a lot of people think the swastika should be banned. Ok, I get that (I don't agree but I get it). Of course, the "Red Star" and "Hammer and Sickle" are banned in some countries too (many people were oppressed and died under those symbols too).

So if we follow that line of thinking, how should Russian planes be marked? Should "you" have to play the sim without those symbols on Russian planes because another country banned them?

Nothing I have said should be construed as negative to 1C's decisions regarding the legalities. My comments are about the laws themselves and the effects they have on others.

Splitter

Abbeville-Boy

11-13-2010, 11:18 PM

when the game gets hacked swastika will appear :-P

Necrobaron

11-13-2010, 11:33 PM

Actually it was the allies, in late 1945. Blame them :)

This is primarily a legal and also a political issue. It has nothing to do with reason and common sense. That's why all these discussions here are completely pointless. Each and every argument has already been exchanged 10 years ago with Il2 and before that, with other sims.

And if user-made emblems are possible then it's a non-issue anyway.

I was just referring what Brando had said. I'd imagine Germany has had many opportunities to repeal such restrictions if they so chose to. I also understand that common sense and reason has nothing to do with this. That is the problem. It's completely idiotic to think that by banning a symbol, the idealogy will go away. If the German people and others allow it, the idealogy will flourish, swastika or not.

You are right that if user made emblems are indeed possible, everything is a moot point.

Dear me, the swastika debate.... yawn.

Oh, poor Freycinet. I think we've wasted his valuable time. Funny since it seems he has taken it upon himself to be the defacto thread police, making snarky, useless and needlessly critical comments towards others. If he had taken the time to try and read the debate at hand rather than coming up with his usual dribble, he would see that the original point was regarding whether or not 3rd parties could add their own markings, swastikas included. The inability to add custom markings was a new possibility that had not been brought up before.

Anyway, with that said, I think my point has been made and will leave this topic be. Thanks for the civil discussion guys. It didn't snowball as badly as I feared it might.;)
________
Silver surfer vaporizer reviews (http://vaporizer.org)

322Sqn_Dusty

11-13-2010, 11:44 PM

Real-time reflections?

Is there a good chance that the reflection is also suggested? Like the reflection of the pilot in the instruments? Maybe you can catch the next frame or 2 and use them besides? Nice capture btw. Stunning looks.

The Kraken

11-13-2010, 11:51 PM

Is there a good chance that the reflection is also suggested? Like the reflection of the pilot in the instruments? Maybe you can catch the next frame or 2 and use them besides? Nice capture btw. Stunning looks.

The scene in the video is paused so it's impossible to say (I was wondering as well). However a real-time reflection of the environment is no rocket science; Lock On for example does it since years. Not really different from water reflections or rear view mirrors (of course, with the respective performance impact ;)). So it's quite possible that this will be an option.

On the other hand the effect will be much more subtle in the release version, so a high-quality realtime reflection is probably overkill.

Afreaka

11-14-2010, 12:00 AM

Very beautiful play of lighting on the first video of the Stuka. Well tempered. As it was precisely the kind of video snippet I was anticipating. It looks good.
Now I can ponder what system will drive that kind of work. :D

bf-110

11-14-2010, 12:06 AM

THe promo trailer is simply epic!
The big capital text "NEW WWII COMBAT SIMULATION" and "FROM THE CREATORS OF AWARD-WINNING IL-2 STURMOVIK" with spitfires flying behind it was...man....can make you cry.

Solnyshko

11-14-2010, 12:26 AM

Oh, poor Freycinet. I think we've wasted his valuable time. Funny since it seems he has taken it upon himself to be the defacto thread police, making snarky, useless and needlessly critical comments towards others.....

Thanks for the civil discussion guys. It didn't snowball as badly as I feared it might.;)

Actually no Necro you've just done the very thing you accuse Freycinet of in what can only be construed as a pretty vigorous personal attack on another forum member. And as for keeping it civil, I wouldn't congratulate yourself too quickly :rolleyes:

The truth is this topic has been done to death again and again on this forum and elsewhere. Oleg himself has made 1C's position clear, and requested in the past that members refrain from discussing it further. Skoshi Tiger and Brando both raise good points. There are very valid reasons for not using the symbol in a game, objectively and legally.

- and it seems to have escaped the attention of most here that one of the development has team hinted, quite strongly, there just might be room to personalise the players gaming experience to their hearts content ;)

there is special build-in markings editor in MainMenu->Extras.
Just two clicks, have fun :)

/rant over (and back on topic I hope!)

MD_Titus

11-14-2010, 02:09 AM

Yes, why don't we ask him to spend an afternoon on entertaining you...?
get out of bed the wrong side?
Nope, you are right. That sort of censorship is silly but those countries can do what they like. I'm a bit miffed that I have to be subject to laws that don't pertain to me.

I don't REALLY care if it is there or not, but since there is no good reason for it to be omitted then it's wrong to not have it in an otherwise historically accurate sim. The ability for a third party to add them should not be curtailed.

But maybe even having that ability is a violation of the law in some countries. I suspect that is the case and why the developer will not allow such third party skins. If that's the case then I see it as those countries imposing their moral will on other countries.

Splitter
i believe that is the case. it's illegal in germany and, iirc, a newly introduced law in russia. it's the newness of this law that is part of the problem, in that no one is quite sure to what extent it is to be applied.
+1 on that part. I respect the decision of countries not to show a symbol, but it is a pity if their decision impacts on others. Particularly given that the subject is those countries committing atrocities against the countries their decisions are now affecting.

A simple switch (markings on/off) may be banned, but they obviously can't ban the ability for a third party to paint skins (they could ban those third parties from making certain skins available in their country, though that can be hard to police). To ban the ability to make skins would be like banning pen and paper. There’s no reason why the publishers can’t produce the game with historical markings, but only sell censored copies in countries with a ban on Nazi symbols.
again, it may be that as it is made in russia that the feature cannot eevn be in the code. that or having it in censored distribution packs would mean the law could be violated by that company's product being imported from a source that sells the uncensored version. then there's also the hot coffee thing with GTA san andreas, i think they got fined for that bit of hidden code being found and exploited.
Dear me, the swastika debate.... yawn.
...and back to bed
when the game gets hacked swastika will appear :-P
may that be when the next sim is being developed.

LukeFF

11-14-2010, 02:48 AM

Dear me, the swastika debate.... yawn.

+1

LukeFF

11-14-2010, 02:50 AM

Oleg, how will player control of the bombsight be handled? Will it be like it is in IL2, where it's the pilot and not the bombardier?

baronWastelan

11-14-2010, 02:53 AM

I'm with the cranky old lady ^ "+1" for the post count since, like her, I have nothing to contribute :rolleyes:

zakkandrachoff

11-14-2010, 02:59 AM

i don't read so much about the tail cannon smoke.
in the british 7,6 when they fire, i can't see they. but in a 20mm cannon must be.
hope oleg thing in that.

http://i970.photobucket.com/albums/ae188/zakkandrachoff/cliff-of-dover.jpg

Blakduk

11-14-2010, 04:06 AM

This is looking very good indeed- the animation of the rear gunner in the He111 is excellent.
Will this slow down the aiming for the gunners compared to Il2, or was this already taken into account by a simple time delay?
Once again I am learning from Oleg's company- i didn't know about the auto-destruct of german cannon shells- they really do appear to show a difference in the trajectory of the different calibre bullets.
I'm intrigued by the Ju87 video- the reflections looks hideously complex but the framerate seems reasonably smooth considering the complexity of the background as well.
Looking at the start of the 'Dover' video the texture mapping of the Spitfires looks very stripped down. Is this an example of in-game video settings that can be toned down for lower spec machines by users themselves, or merely an earlier build?
I can hardly wait to see a video showing the weather effects!

csThor

11-14-2010, 04:43 AM

Two comments:

1.) Banning the swastika as it is done in Germy is not just a case of "If I don't see 'em, they don't exist". Suggesting this is insanely short-sighted. In fact banning the swastika is part of a complex of things which all are meant to give the state the means to keep the right-wing idiots under observation and slap them whenever they get too frisky. Unfortunately you can't ban idiocy and plain human stupidy so I'm afraid there'll be always people who were missing when common sense was handed out, people who actually believe that BS the neonazis spread.

Some people said that free speech is a valuable thing for a country. I agree. But I also believe that free speech ends there where other people are being directly threatened with physical harm just because of an ideology. There's a popular saying in Germany, one I very much agree with, which states "Nazism is not an opinion, it's a crime." And that isn't meant WRT the law.

2.) A few Friday updates back Luthier posted, that the russian Duma (parliament) had passed a new law months ago which also bans public display of NS symbols (mainly the swastika). The law itself is as clear as stirred mud and could be read in various ways so 1C decided not to risk anything and omit the swastika from its products. Oleg also stated that even allowing users or 3rd Party folks to add such symbols later might get 1C in trouble (in theory) but he wasn't yet sure what that would mean for the new game series.

Necrobaron

11-14-2010, 05:03 AM

Actually no Necro you've just done the very thing you accuse Freycinet of in what can only be construed as a pretty vigorous personal attack on another forum member. And as for keeping it civil, I wouldn't congratulate yourself too quickly :rolleyes:

The truth is this topic has been done to death again and again on this forum and elsewhere. Oleg himself has made 1C's position clear, and requested in the past that members refrain from discussing it further. Skoshi Tiger and Brando both raise good points. There are very valid reasons for not using the symbol in a game, objectively and legally.

- and it seems to have escaped the attention of most here that one of the development has team hinted, quite strongly, there just might be room to personalise the players gaming experience to their hearts content ;)

/rant over (and back on topic I hope!)

Odd that you'd want to defend a member that has repeatedly proven to be needlessly rude and boorish, even in this very thread. I think anyone who actually was part of the discussion conducted themselves in a civil way. Maybe you should go back and read before you offer an opinion. Nothing I said was untrue.

Yes, we all know the swastika debate has been done to death. That is no revelation. Like Freycinet, if you bothered to read what was being discussed originally, it was the matter of whether or not markings can be added by 3rd party individuals. This has nothing to do with whether or not the swastika will be a default marking. I understand it won't be and said so repeatedly. As you say, there has been indication that personal markings can indeed be added and that was all I needed to know. As far as I'm concerned the matter is closed.
________
Hawaii Medical Marijuana (http://hawaii.dispensaries.org/)

Necrobaron

11-14-2010, 05:09 AM

WTE_Galway

11-14-2010, 06:54 AM

ah yes THAT boring old debate again

the truth ...

http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Swastika

The swastika, based on Japanese shuriken, was invented by the Buddhists in the 1950s, and was used in their campaign to make Buddhism more interesting and more offensive. The swastika was originally a stylized Iron Cross, used by the Buddhists to inject Nazi chic into their statues and scriptures. The swastika was later used, in the 1980s and beyond, by Neo-Nazis in areas where the Iron Cross was banned from use. Ironically, the swastika is today considered more offensive than the Iron Cross, except in Austria where it is used as a peace symbol.

Germans and other Nazis refer to the swastika as a Hakenkreuz (hooker cross), because of its association with hookers, prostitutes and whores. The word swastika is banned in Germany because of its non-Germanic origins.

btw ... in reality, the swastika is also banned in other countries including Hungary, Poland and Brazil, not just the Soviet Union and Germany.

Flanker35M

11-14-2010, 07:17 AM

S!

Finland still has the "hakaristi" or swastika in their Air Force flags and no-one has complained except the French :roll: There is a big difference though between the NSDAP used one and the one we have. A certain moustache man had not even founded his "ideals" when Finland had this emblem painted on the FiAF planes since 1918. The emblem was from Count Von Rosen, Sweden. Had been his personal lucky charm, originaly from India where it had been used for some 2000+ years in this purpose.

The roundel we have now is after war when the Allies said a hakaristi can not be left on planes so thus the change.

Now, let's let the dead horse finally rotten away :D

SaQSoN

11-14-2010, 07:22 AM

btw ... in reality, the swastika is also banned in other countries including Hungary, Poland and Brazil, not just the Soviet Union and Germany.

Actually, in the Soviet Union it was not banned by the law. Instead, the propaganda of Nazism was banned. So, one couldn't use swastika for that purpose, but freely could do that in historical or cultural context.

The ban law was adopted in Russia just about a year ago, as their government attempt to be "closer to the international community". Yet, for some reason no one told them, that stupidly coping a stupid ideas is no good at all...

furbs

11-14-2010, 07:36 AM

SQB

11-14-2010, 07:50 AM

furbs, funny you should mention that, i just got off youtube after discovering some AMAZING fsx 3d vids, lemme find em again...

right here they are:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgGjJeQIjaw

3 or 4 others by the same guy, its about a new ground texture addon called orbx.

to some it up in the words of the goons, "yesyesyesyesyesyesyesyes!?"

Hecke

11-14-2010, 07:52 AM

Damn UMG.

Is there any way to fool youtube?

Richie

11-14-2010, 07:58 AM

ah yes THAT boring old debate again

the truth ...

btw ... in reality, the swastika is also banned in other countries including Hungary, Poland and Brazil, not just the Soviet Union and Germany.

I think it may even be banned here in Canada, does anyone know?

It is.. :)

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_it_illegal_in_Canada_to_wear_a_Nazi_arm_band_fo r_Halloween

Foo'bar

11-14-2010, 08:00 AM

Damn UMG.

Is there any way to fool youtube?

There are many ways. Proxy outside europe e.g.

SQB

11-14-2010, 08:03 AM

UMG?

If the music is missing... dont worry it was crap to begin with :rolleyes:

klem

11-14-2010, 08:13 AM

The Swastika.

I'm not at all sure I want to dip my toe in but here's my one-off.

Let's just be practical about this.

1. It is deeply offensive to many people and will continue to be so for many years.
2. It's use in various ways is banned in many countries.
3. Oleg, possibly for these reasons alone and possibly others too has decided it will not be available in SoW.
4. The ability for users to add their own skins means they can add it if they wish to and use it in their own homes.
5. On-line servers can decide whether they will allow it through skin downloads and warn/kick/ban if they wish.
6. On-line server operators may run into legal difficulties if they allow it's use.

In practice, our own opinions don't really account for much in the real and practical world of whether it will/should be allowed. Laws are Laws.

Where it is used and permitted in on-line servers be aware that it may be causing offence to other players as much as if you were hurling racist abuse (as they may see it) through the Chat bar although they do have the choice of not using that server. If SoW ever goes to a MMOG I doubt very much if it will be allowed on a large Host server because of it's global nature.

I'm not saying "I'm right" but I really don't see what else there is to the debate. Anything else is simply a matter of personal preference.

I suppose I should declare my own position. I have a very clear knowledge of what was done 'under the Nazi use of the Swastika'. I found those things deeply offensive. Curiously I have discovered that I am not actually offended by it's appearance in IL-2. I suppose that's because I am able to separate 'game' from 'history' and do not assume that the virtual pilot is a Neo Nazi. I am conscious of the offence it causes others and it does gives me a strange feeling to see it but I personally am not bothered if it is available or not and, in deference to those it offends, I don't think it should be permitted without being declared on the server.

furbs

11-14-2010, 08:18 AM

LukeFF

11-14-2010, 08:37 AM

I'm with the cranky old lady ^ "+1" for the post count since, like her, I have nothing to contribute :rolleyes:

Welcome to my Ignore List. You're welcome to stay as long as you want.

Kids these days... :rolleyes:

Necrobaron

11-14-2010, 08:37 AM

Hmm, 3D flight simming. That's certainly something I'd give a try!
________
Laylah (http://www.girlcamfriend.com/cam/Laylah/)

Letum

11-14-2010, 08:42 AM

Hmm, 3D flight simming. That's certainly something I'd give a try!

Because your natural 3d vision only works well for ~0-50m in front of you, flight
sims are probably the worst place to use 3d as most of the action is more
than 50m away. That said, it does enhance the difference between the
cockpit and the outside world more.

ed: after a little googling, it turns out that the absolute natural limit for depth
perception is about 400m, but on a TV screen, the limit is much lower due to
the resolution limiting the size of binocular differences.
100m limit might be closer to the mark.

Daniël

11-14-2010, 09:31 AM

robtek

11-14-2010, 09:40 AM

I`ve tried 3d first with B17-the mighty eight and found the experience marvelous.
Having said that you will find that that title was most definitely not made for 3d-vision!
So all this talking if SoW:BoB would include 3d-vision is meaningless.
The program sends all video-information, including depth, to the graphics-driver, which then produces the output to the screen.
If the graphics-driver is programmed to deliver a 3d-picture he will do it with any game that gives depth-information to it.
With the b17 ptogramm i used a nvidia card with 3d-glasses connected to this card, a solution for which driver developement was cancelled sorrily.
I still have those, now useless, shutter glasses around here somewhere, though no nvidia card anymore.

SQB

11-14-2010, 10:00 AM

Xilon_x

11-14-2010, 10:02 AM

Grazie Oleg Maddox bel video di azzione.
Tank you Oleg Maddox good action video immersive and the music is for big big action.
i loock fiat g 50 seem to be very agile now i seend the the sound of machine guns TRRRRRRRRRR and i the terrain is fantastic good good also the reflection.
but i loock strange dammage to airplane the flames yes is good the airplane not have the damage flames exit from a...
The flame comes out of a hole from a crack i noot loock this.
airplane lost when the pieces after being hit does a white smoke.
ok ok little defect but the GAME IS GOOD VERY GOOD.
I'd like to see the reaction of the airplane if you turn off the engine in flight or if you damage the engine. I'd like to see the aireplane who is touched by another plane and see if you damage an airplane slamming floor plan with another airplane.

Hecke

11-14-2010, 10:45 AM

UMG?

If the music is missing... dont worry it was crap to begin with :rolleyes:

No, it doesn't play the video at all.

winny

11-14-2010, 10:56 AM

Just a small point about the use of swastikas..

As a symbol it's only completley banned in Germany and Russia.(with a few religious exceptions)

The problem arises because all computer games (regardless of age rating) are classified as 'Toys' for children and many countries will not allow swastikas in them because of that reason.

If it's in a film then that is classed as Art and is allowed.

Freycinet

11-14-2010, 11:37 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freycinet
Yes, why don't we ask him to spend an afternoon on entertaining you...?

get out of bed the wrong side?

Seems to have escaped the attention of a lot of you guys when Oleg has been writing words to the effect of:

"Please you ask for too much", "You say that I promise [x] in next update but I didn't", "I need 25 hours of sleep now", etc, etc etc...

He has made it very clear that he is super-busy at the moment. He has a young kid on top of that, the implications of which any parent would understand...

Of course the spoilt teenagers in here cannot be brought to understand any of this, it is obvious now, they're just totally hopeless. They don't really care about anything but themselves, sign of their age and the times.

Of course the developers are provoked to reply when the tactic is "Hey, I'll pull stupid criticism out of my arse and then come with an inane suggestion about how to fix it". This trolling has been going on for quite a while now and is ruining the interaction with the development team.

Dano

11-14-2010, 11:55 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freycinet
Yes, why don't we ask him to spend an afternoon on entertaining you...?

Seems to have escaped the attention of a lot of you guys when Oleg has been writing words to the effect of:

"Please you ask for too much", "You say that I promise [x] in next update but I didn't", "I need 25 hours of sleep now", etc, etc etc...

Sorry, did he ask people to stop asking questions somewhere?

He has made it very clear that he is super-busy at the moment. He has a young kid on top of that, the implications of which any parent would understand...

Again, he hasn't told or asked anybody to stop asking questions has he? He's merely letting us know how he is so we have a reason for his absence, not that he needs to tell us anything, he does after all have the ability to decide for himself much as you seem to think otherwise.

Of course the spoilt teenagers in here cannot be brought to understand any of this, it is obvious now, they're just totally hopeless. They don't really care about anything but themselves, sign of their age and the times.

Did you want your underwear in red or yellow now that they need to go on the outside for your role as Oleg's protector?

Of course the developers are provoked to reply when the tactic is "Hey, I'll pull stupid criticism out of my arse and then come with an inane suggestion about how to fix it". This trolling has been going on for quite a while now and is ruining the interaction with the development team.

What on earth was stupid or critical about asking Oleg's motivation and reasoning behind his choice of the Battle of Britain?

Triggaaar

11-14-2010, 12:01 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freycinet
Yes, why don't we ask him to spend an afternoon on entertaining you...?I know where you're coming from, although as mentioned by others some of your criticism isn’t well directed (IMO). These threads become mammoth, and it’s a wonder how Oleg has the time to wade through them. A lot of the questions put are made without much thought (eg, as you say, some questions almost suggest that the development team are beginners, which won’t have been the poster’s intention, and could have been avoided with some thought). Fortunately we are all being given a chance to ask questions, and unfortunately that inevitably leads to a lot of ill-advised posts. The fact is, it is probably easier for Oleg to ignore posts (like this one) than it is for us all to argue over which post is necessary. Like I say, I know your point, but you have now made several posts on the subject (with responses from others and now me) which are as much OT and in the way of the real discussion as the posts you’re complaining about.

It’s just not practical to moderate all the posts, so just ignore the ones you don’t like and don’t worry.

Freycinet

11-14-2010, 12:04 PM

Cheers...i dont have the 3d glasses...works well then?

Can't you see the video? - It is not a vid for 3D glasses, it is a cross-eye video. Cross your eyes and you'll have a 3D image in the middle.

furbs

11-14-2010, 12:26 PM

you winding me up ? :)

Trumper

11-14-2010, 12:32 PM

;) Ironic to think the sim is being built along the lines of a conflict that fought for freedom and freedom of speech and is ironically now restricted in many ways by countries imposing what they think should be allowed or banned, - - oh the irony [especially today of all days remembrance day here ]
If Olegs hands are tied well so be it nothing can be done.
A friend of mine has pointed out how limited an interest the BoB theatre of ops will actually be to some people [not me ,i can't wait ] so how quickly after this release will the next possibly more easily sold theatre of op s be released?.
Will you be able to buy them as stand alone individual sims or do you have to have BoB and then add on that.
Thanks http://i399.photobucket.com/albums/pp71/Bennyscooby/poppy-imageCustomCustom.jpg

furbs

11-14-2010, 12:35 PM

Skoshi Tiger

11-14-2010, 01:07 PM

Both i think mate.

Or wait for five years and get the series complation with streamlined install!

Redwan

11-14-2010, 01:48 PM

I don’t know if somebody noticed that but I think that in some sequences of the Igromir video the textures don’t look so good from a certain altitude. I know that Oleg is still working on this aspect and I hope that in the final release we will have something at least as good as WoP based, irony of fate on the already very good IL2.

Here is a little comparison between BoB and WoP. I agree that this comparison is unfair because there is a Hollywood green filter in WoP and that the weather doesn’t seem to be the same in both pictures.

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/3853/compare2.jpg

BoB’s textures resolution seems to be very good and the details look very nice but it think that there is something that needs to be fine tuned to make it look more photorealistic and I think that there is no doubt that the new BoB graphic engine can do better than a console game.

K_Freddie

11-14-2010, 02:33 PM

I wouldn't worry too much about this aspect...;)

FG28_Kodiak

11-14-2010, 02:51 PM

@Redwan, look at this:
http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/3816/shot20101022183530.jpg
And don't forget all is WORK IN PROGRESS

KOM.Nausicaa

11-14-2010, 03:11 PM

and it’s a wonder how Oleg has the time to wade through them.

When you look at Oleg's posting time and make the math, you got your answer: he is sitting there sometimes answering until 3 and 4am in the morning (Moscow time).

A lot of the questions put are made without much thought

Yes, and without much reading. Lot's of the questions have been answered many times before.

philip.ed

11-14-2010, 03:20 PM

Oleg's a big boy, he will do what he wants. He doesn't need people trying to hold his virtual hand to tell him what he can and can't do. If he wishes to reply to posts, he will. He only seems to answer questions which he feels he can answer (e.g. without giving too much away) or questions of general interest to him and others.
I understand it may seem rude to some to post a lot of questions, but IMHO it just shows general interest.
IMHO, a topic full of questions is much more considerate than a topic full of questions and argument.

Hopefully we can just move back to the topic. I can't see why people can't just PM members if they feel their post is rude, to save the topic going off at a tangent.

JAMF

11-14-2010, 03:32 PM

it doesnt matter what game, all you need is a small script that displays two game views at the same time, one 5 (or if you want better depth perception, 10) cm to the LEFT of the other. If the game has a 3d world, it will turn out 3d.

its actually really easy.Very true. nVidia has had stereo drivers for years. I've used a pair of 3D Elsa Revelator glasses back in 2001/2002 and it worked fine in IL2:Sturmovik. IIRC there was only the trouble with crosshairs and labels. In "Mobil 1 Rally Championship" from Actualize/Magnetic Fields it worked great.

Sadly it only works on a VGA connector now.

jamesdietz

11-14-2010, 03:41 PM

B.C.????????
( Before Christmas???)

Richie

11-14-2010, 03:43 PM

philip.ed

11-14-2010, 04:59 PM

Oleg, has bouncing tracer been implemented into the game yet? I've watched all the videos from the show in Russia, but I can't see it implemented yet ;)
Did Luthier manage to get all his calculations for it?

Avimimus

11-14-2010, 05:00 PM

Hope Oleg reads this far...

Anyway, Oleg i know 3D vision is not going to be in BOB, but are there any plans to have it in the future?

has anyone tried 3D vision in a flightsim and how did it look and feel?

Yes, the makers of TrackIR offered a system back around 2002 (before 3d had its resurgence). A SimHQ review reported that it helped with judging distances at short ranges in Il-2, but that the shutters were somewhat annoying. Some other games didn't work as well.

major_setback

11-14-2010, 05:39 PM

B.C.????????
( Before Christmas???)

I don't think it will be released before Christmas. February/March has been suggested as a possible date (I can't remember who said that). So some time after that, I would think.

Foo'bar

11-14-2010, 05:45 PM

I don't think it will be released before Christmas. February/March has been suggested as a possible date (I can't remember who said that). So some time after that, I would think.

It was 1C-SoftClub, the russian publisher, who said spring 2011.

Necrobaron

11-14-2010, 06:49 PM

Because your natural 3d vision only works well for ~0-50m in front of you, flight
sims are probably the worst place to use 3d as most of the action is more
than 50m away. That said, it does enhance the difference between the
cockpit and the outside world more.

ed: after a little googling, it turns out that the absolute natural limit for depth
perception is about 400m, but on a TV screen, the limit is much lower due to
the resolution limiting the size of binocular differences.
100m limit might be closer to the mark.

Good point and something I didn't realize. I imagine low level flying could be pretty interesting...
________
Design host (http://hostndesign.com)

Freycinet

11-14-2010, 07:22 PM

you winding me up ? :)

No.

For that video, glasses will do nothing.

You need to use this technique:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBa-bCxsZDk

Freycinet

11-14-2010, 07:24 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgGjJeQIjaw

As long as you view it embedded in the 1C forum page you need cross-eye.

Osprey

11-14-2010, 07:55 PM

Finally no swatiks any more ;)

How disappointing. The easily offended PC people have got in first.

If you forget history then you have more chance of a repeat :evil:

LukeFF

11-14-2010, 08:00 PM

http://www.cenekreport.com/storage/beating_a_dead_horse.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSIO N=1274642541111

Osprey

11-14-2010, 08:53 PM

Is that the new Take That album cover?

major_setback

11-14-2010, 08:57 PM

It was 1C-SoftClub, the russian publisher, who said spring 2011.

Thanks. You are correct.

Trumper

11-14-2010, 09:11 PM

Is that the new Take That album cover?
Nope that is normally the once a year bet i put on the Grand National :)

robday

11-14-2010, 11:22 PM

Is that the new Take That album cover?

It should be! Take That have been flogging a dead horse for years!
Porcupine Tree rule! OK, well off topic, sorry.
The update is superb. Thank you Oleg.
Cheers mate.

speculum jockey

11-15-2010, 01:40 AM

How disappointing. The easily offended PC people have got in first.

If you forget history then you have more chance of a repeat :evil:

So if we don't put swastikas on the aircraft in SOW then the world will once again be plunged into war?

How about you just shut up and let it go? Oleg has already said there is this new law in Russia about adding that kind of content, and despite what people like you say, he's not about to lose this game and his livelihood over it.

Let it go!

heywooood

11-15-2010, 02:00 AM

http://www.cenekreport.com/storage/beating_a_dead_horse.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSIO N=1274642541111

"it feels good to be a gangsta"

Office Space is an epic film...

"so I told him, please dont put salt on the rim of my margarita, NO SALT...and look, giant clumps of salt...I could complain to the management of this establishment..I could burn this place to the ground..."

this topic of swastikas was covered and recovered endlessly in the old Il2 forums...along with muzzleflash, FW cockpitbar, lawnmower enginesounds, and .50cal firepower...

Its good to see the fervor has not relented - smells like home in here

Flying_Nutcase

11-15-2010, 02:54 AM

...
How about you just shut up and let it go?
...

There seem to a number of people who insist that others "shut up". Maybe it's just me but it seems pretty arrogant and inappropriate in a forum (well, anywhere). People have the right to voice there opinions.

As for the "this was discussed ten years ago"; maybe there are a few new faces around here who have no jolly idea about IL2's 'ancient' history. ;-) (BTW not referring to your post heywooood, which is light-hearted)

Food for thought. m(0.0)m

WTE_Galway

11-15-2010, 03:01 AM

http://www.cenekreport.com/storage/beating_a_dead_horse.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSIO N=1274642541111

It is not dead merely resting ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npjOSLCR2hE

Oleg Maddox

11-15-2010, 09:21 AM

Folks,

Please be patient to each other.
It is more easy to put the link to any of my answers that to show others, who repeat the questions or so...

Please.

furbs

11-15-2010, 09:47 AM

Oleg...a question about the AI. Will the AI still fight to the death or will they try to escape if outnumbered?
When attacking escorted bombers will the british fighters carry out 1 or 2 passes then dive away? same with german fighters, will they carry out boom and zoom attacks then return to protect the bombers?
Is the AI able to work out defection shooting and snap shots?
How close to real life is it possible to get the AI with todays PCs?

thanks.

addman

11-15-2010, 11:14 AM

Question for Oleg, what progress have you done to make the campaigns more "personal" and immersive since IL-2? The Dgen campaigns didn't really make you feel that you were a pilot in a raging war. Read an article on Eurogamer yesterday (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2010-11-14-retrospective-red-baron-article) about the Red Baron game. Sure the campaigns weren't as complex as they probably will be in SoW but they had personality and a sense of progression. Hope you have come a long way from the Dgen campaign stuff -you have been promoted, you have recieved a medal etc, yaaay...not!-.

Also, will there be any kind of resource management i.e, fuel management, pilot/planes/munitions supply as you become higher in rank?

Thanks in advance!

Bobb4

11-15-2010, 11:22 AM

A few Friday updates back Luthier posted, that the russian Duma (parliament) had passed a new law months ago which also bans public display of NS symbols (mainly the swastika). The law itself is as clear as stirred mud and could be read in various ways so 1C decided not to risk anything and omit the swastika from its products. Oleg also stated that even allowing users or 3rd Party folks to add such symbols later might get 1C in trouble (in theory) but he wasn't yet sure what that would mean for the new game series.

Easy to fix. It is a Russian law, so have the software specific to the ability to add markings compiled in another country that does not have that law.
Not sure if Speedtree is a Russian company but I am sure 1C or Oleg could not be held liable if the source code used to make the trees could be converted into making giant swastika trees :)

One could even suggest an export version not for sale in countries with swastika issues that would allow it...

Modders will make it happen no matter how much 1C, the Russian parliament or German Government fight against it.

For me it is not a game breaker either way :)

BadAim

11-15-2010, 12:07 PM

Folks,

Please be patient to each other.
It is more easy to put the link to any of my answers that to show others, who repeat the questions or so...

Please.

Your recent experience raising a small child must be coming in handy around here.......Thanks for your patience.

speculum jockey

11-15-2010, 12:38 PM

Easy to fix. It is a Russian law, so have the software specific to the ability to add markings compiled in another country that does not have that law.
Not sure if Speedtree is a Russian company but I am sure 1C or Oleg could not be held liable if the source code used to make the trees could be converted into making giant swastika trees :)

One could even suggest an export version not for sale in countries with swastika issues that would allow it...

Modders will make it happen no matter how much 1C, the Russian parliament or German Government fight against it.

For me it is not a game breaker either way :)

GREAT IDEA! Try and skirt Russian law by trying to invent a loophole that may or may not result in jail time and Maddox Games/1C Publishers being raided and having their property seized!

We all know how reasonable and lienent the police are in Russia, and I'm sure they will have no problem with Oleg and co. making a game in Russia that will depict hate symbols outside of the country.

Oleg has already said no, why not give it up so that we don't have to read this every three posts?

nearmiss

11-15-2010, 12:55 PM

Folks,

Please be patient to each other.
It is more easy to put the link to any of my answers that to show others, who repeat the questions or so...

Please.

Maybe...

1. answer questions you like,

2. give links if you like.

3. don't answer if you like.

I think most people just want to talk with you.

Asking questions is easy way to have discussion.

Here is a good referral link to send them... LOL

Maybe they will get the idea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxMbkCBjSVs

BadAim

11-15-2010, 02:06 PM

Maybe...

1. answer questions you like,

2. give links if you like.

3. don't answer if you like.

I think most people just want to talk with you.

Asking questions is easy way to have discussion.

Here is a good referral link... LOL

Actually I do believe that Oleg was attempting to ask forum participants to stop bickering over stupid crap, and suggesting one way to commence to do that.

klem

11-15-2010, 02:07 PM

Folks,

Please be patient to each other.
It is more easy to put the link to any of my answers that to show others, who repeat the questions or so...

Please.

Hi Oleg

The problem is I don't know if my questions have been answered before, there is so much to look through :(
Could you answer these (again?) please?
http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=17298&page=10

I saw your post to Hecke - "no Tesselation" - so that it answered.

Thanks

The Kraken

11-15-2010, 02:28 PM

The problem is I don't know if my questions have been answered before, there is so much to look through :(

Not really a big deal to check Oleg's previous answers.

3933

Less work in fact than writing questions that have already been answered (not referring to you in particular here).

Zoom2136

11-15-2010, 02:56 PM

Do you mean slats?
Yes.

I don't understand the word flaperons

Flaperon are ailerons that can both deflect downward at the same time so that they double as flaps. Hence the name flaperon... Popular on ultralights...

FS~Hawks

11-15-2010, 02:59 PM

Flaperon are ailerons that can both deflect downward at the same time so that they double as flaps. Hence the name flaperon... Popular on ultralights...

Would that be like whats on the I-16's ??

Solnyshko

11-15-2010, 03:10 PM

Actually I do believe that Oleg was attempting to ask forum participants to stop bickering over stupid crap, and suggesting one way to commence to do that.

I'm not quite sure that insulting him was the correct response, especially from a moderator. Of course that's only my opinion.

+1

Pretty cleary read it that way too - why are people now falling over each other rehashing old questions? Dear god, this is beyond embarrassment!

(or have I missed something)

- late edit: my support of the above quote went as far as the 1st line - I was not endorsing bashing moderators!

Jimko

11-15-2010, 03:47 PM

Folks,

Please be patient to each other.
It is more easy to put the link to any of my answers that to show others, who repeat the questions or so...

Please.

Glad to see this post from you, Oleg!

I am appalled when I see the bickering, insults, and other violations of polite forum protocol in this forum.

Hopefully, people will respect your request.

Triggaaar

11-15-2010, 03:49 PM

GREAT IDEA! Try and skirt Russian law by trying to invent a loophole that may or may not result in jail time and Maddox Games/1C Publishers being raided and having their property seized!Different countries have different laws, that's that, no problem. So the game will come without certain markings, no problem. I would like, preferrably, to be have a historically accurate sim. Would I like the publisher (developer etc) to take any risks in giving me that sim - no of course not, don't be daft. I wouldn't want a loophole where you change the config file here and there etc. What would seem usual, is that a game, whether it be racing cars, planes, whatever, would allow modders to change skins - a new paint job for Valentino Rossi's bike etc. That's not a loophole, that's common practice. If a modder then put graffiti on an object saying something offensive (swearing, race abuse etc), that would not be the fault of the publisher, and the same would go with markings. For example, what if you have a favourite pilot, that flew with a badge on his plane, and you had the artwork for that badge - does the game have to be specifically programmed to stop you adding any art, camoflage etc, just in case you added something else that you shouldn't have? That would be ridiculous. I'd personally assume the game will allow users to make their own skins, with camoflage etc, and if someone made something offensive, that wouldn't be the responsibility of the publisher.

swiss

11-15-2010, 03:50 PM

You really have no shame.

Actually, the problem is he has no clue - but isn't aware of it. ;)

major_setback

11-15-2010, 03:51 PM

Glad to see this post from you, Oleg!

I am appalled when I see the bickering, insults, and other violations of polite forum protocol in this forum.

Hopefully, people will respect your request.

+1

It's a nightmare here.
Unfortunately those saying most are those with least to say.

Zoom2136

11-15-2010, 03:53 PM

Would that be like whats on the I-16's ??

Yes

Old_Canuck

11-15-2010, 03:55 PM

.... smells like home in here

or rather it smells like dead horses :neutral:

philip.ed

11-15-2010, 03:58 PM

+1

It's a nightmare here.
Unfortunately those saying most are those with least to say.

+2 it's as I said somewhere in this thread, if we all just stuck to the topic, and maybe pointed members to an answer if Oleg answered the question, then everything would be fine :D Belittling members for asking questions is just not on (and least on the open forum). Clearly everything is fine as long as people stick to the topic in question.
I'm happy that Oleg has posted this. Hopefully if someone posts a seemingly silly, but relevent, question, members will PM them if they feel it rude or pointless rather than openly flame them; or allow Oleg to answer if he wishes which, at the end of the day, is the whole purpose of posing the question to him. :D

Dano

11-15-2010, 04:02 PM

Maybe we need to set up a wiki style Oleg's answers page so it can all been seen in one place and then just add it to everybodies sigs :)

klem

11-15-2010, 04:26 PM

Deleted - misposted - see further down.

nearmiss

11-15-2010, 04:40 PM

There are plenty of ways to do things. A true FAQ or WIKI you would think would work.

It won't because there are always people that refuse to cooperate.
Those members always want the fresh answer, even if their question has been answered hundreds of times.

The update threads are a nuisance after the first couple days they always turn into something like this. Yet, Oleg often answers poster questions later in the week... so we let it run as a sticky thread until the next update.

If you don't like the tone of the thread... ignore the worthless words, and ask or make your own sensible postings. Oleg may answer those postings.

philip.ed

11-15-2010, 04:43 PM

klem

11-15-2010, 04:48 PM

+1

Pretty cleary read it that way too - why are people now falling over each other rehashing old questions? Dear god, this is beyond embarrassment!

(or have I missed something)

If that was aimed at me let me explain as I have asked questions that may well have been answered before.

First I completely agree with Oleg's comments and he may well have had my questions in mind. These Friday updates are too full of unhelpful, even irrelevant, junk and ping-pong insults that have little to with with Oleg's information or his intentions in posting the thread.

The previous Friday I was ranting, I admit, along just Oleg's lines. The thread was 90 pages long for god's sake. In it were possibly 20 relevant pages.

"Not really a big deal to check Oleg's previous answers. "
It is if there are an unknown number of threads to search especially when they can be each 40-90 pages long. It just isn't possible and picking the right words for a Search to bring them back is hit and miss and has not brought me previous questions or answers I am looking for. Sometimes its just necessary to ask the question. We haven't all been reading every thread since SoW was first discussed. There will always be people looking in who have not seen and can't find what they are looking for.

If no-one wants to answer me then I'll just have to live with it but as Oleg says, if someone knows the answer then just give it. Insulting or flaming a questioner or question, even an unwitting old one, is not what the forum is about. It's supposed to be informative and mutually helpful.

"A true FAQ or WIKI you would think would work."
If Only! There is no one place I know of where Oleg's answers are collected.

So, does anyone know the answers to my questions? (I already know about Tessellation.)

swiss

11-15-2010, 04:51 PM

Nearmiss, I just think that people should not be allowed to openly say 'why are you posting this :rolleyes: it's all crap' which pretty much sums up a few of the members on here. They could easily say this privately.

But stuff like:

"Hi Oleg, please tell me this and explain that, because the staus quo right now really looks like ****, I mean, even game xy from 1999 did that better."

should be ok.?

philip.ed

11-15-2010, 05:01 PM

But stuff like:

"Hi Oleg, please tell me this and explain that, because the staus quo right now really looks like ****, I mean, even game xy from 1999 did that better."

should be ok.?

Not as a statement, you're right it's pointless, but if posed as a question and justified by pictures/videos/etc then why not? If it's directed at Oleg it's for him to answer; people don't need to act as his own advisors and try and answer the question for him, unless they can prove the post wrong with anyting Oleg has said or posted before :D
As long as everyone is calm and rational, and not rude and insulting, then things can run smoother. But yes, such posts can be rude if phrased that way. There are ways of saying things where one can be a lot more polite.

major_setback

11-15-2010, 05:28 PM

So stop bickering!!!!!!!!!

philip.ed

11-15-2010, 05:31 PM

Maybe that's the point; not everyone will agree with everything you have to say, so don't try and argue against that?

Solnyshko

11-15-2010, 06:13 PM

I think actually Phil the point is space lost to pointless banter could be better used. Constant toing and froing such as this is exhausting to wade through *cough*

And quickly responding to Klem– and not wanting to contribute further to the faff...
If that was aimed at me let me explain as I have asked questions that may well have been answered before...

Not at all, apologies if it came across that way. I was responding in haste (and exasperation) - but could have been clearer. It wasn’t my intention to target individuals, on the contrary I'm also keen to hear feedback on issues you've raised.

My point, a simple one :) was that A) Developer posts a plea asking for cooperation and restraint B) community here then launches into a confused series of interpretations – including digging up old questions raised by Oleg seeking clarification on an earlier query from us and then, although already answered in this very thread, is given a new definition which in turn opens another discussion about what in this case I think was flaprons.... Phew

(edit) It’s understandable; there is so much to get through in an update thread, and consequently a lot of repetition. But it would I think not be asking too much to exercise self-control now and again. Just taking a moment before hitting the reply button and thinking, does everyone here really want to share this? Other forums manage it :)

This thread has had 39,095 hits to date – I can’t believe everyone reading is moved to voice their personal take on someone else’s reply to a question already answered.

philip.ed

11-15-2010, 06:25 PM

Yes, sorry, I agree, I just thought it best we try and resolve the issue in order to reach a consensus ;)

One thing that I'd like to see is the pilots animation when wounded. Will it be the same as normal? Or will we be able to see that the pilot is wounded? Say, for example, if we attacked a formation of Heinkels head on and killed/wounded the pilot, would we see the co-pilot take his place? And, similarly, if the rear-gunner was killed, could the bomb-aimer take his place if they had completed theit bombing run?
I can't recall such a question being asked or answered.

swiss

11-15-2010, 06:51 PM

Not as a statement, you're right it's pointless, but if posed as a question and justified by pictures/videos/etc then why not? If it's directed at Oleg it's for him to answer; people don't need to act as his own advisors and try and answer the question for him, unless they can prove the post wrong with anyting Oleg has said or posted before :D
As long as everyone is calm and rational, and not rude and insulting, then things can run smoother. But yes, such posts can be rude if phrased that way. There are ways of saying things where one can be a lot more polite.

Look phil, it's not about the question itself - it's about the way many of them are are formulated, and that is often very offensive.
For all I care you can ask oleg if his trees are green - ok, go.

A (imho) no go is: Oleg your trees not only suck, but also I've seen waaaay more realistic models in Mario Bros for the c64 in '92.

Language barrier is not argument, you really dont need an advanced to formulate a question politely.

philip.ed

11-15-2010, 07:03 PM

I agree with you there; the comment isn't really supported by any tangible evidence, and it's plain rude ;)
If someone posts something like that, I think the best solution is to post nicely, rather than flame them, 'cos you're just dropping to their level.
I may have posted saying things like 'the smoke looks awful', but really I hope to never do so again. Or if I feel that way, say: 'Oleg, look here______the smoke looks a lot different than what we've seen in SoW. Will this type of smoke be modelled, or are you still finetuning the process? Of course this aspect of the sim will be hard to get accurate, as there is little evidence to use for this which shows the smoke accurately, but it would be interesting to have an insight into how you model damage effects like this.'
Whilst some may say that asking Oleg for such an insight is rude and too expectant, I feel if you're polite than all Oleg needs to say is 'no, sorry' or completely disregard the post altogether if he wishes ;)

Sorry to have gone AWOL (again)

swiss

11-15-2010, 07:11 PM

If I remember correctly, you posted something like " drawn by a child in watercolors", however, recently I can assure you you were not responsible for any raise of my blood pressure.

:grin:

But a post in pilot body/face thread made my jaw hit the space bar on my keyboard...

(...and hitting the space bar with my jaw causes an instant meltdown, at least to me)

philip.ed

11-15-2010, 07:29 PM

swiss

11-15-2010, 07:51 PM

That was Tree ;)

Ok, that's guy I have to share a "zappatista's shorts" dinner if they release SOW before/at X-mas.

Sorry then, lol.

Urufu_Shinjiro

11-15-2010, 08:09 PM

A little tip for those who are not sure if their question has been answered or not, or just want to see all that has been said, simply click on Olegs name at the top left of one of his posts and a menu will appear. Choose "Find All Posts by Oleg Maddox" and VIOLA! there is everything the man himself has said, and while this may still be a lot to go through, at least it's in one spot and no other crap to wade through. I also do the same for Luthier in case he's added something to the picture recently.

Freycinet

11-15-2010, 08:14 PM

Yes, an example of an insufferable, arrogant and impolite posting by philip.ed would be this one:

Oleg, I too, flew over England this year and Furbs' shot is an accurate representation of the colours of the English landscape. I am not trying to be rude, but have you flown over England? I think, perhaps, we may be able to judge the best. Obviously as you say a camera won't give a 100% accurate representation, but from experience I think those of us who live in the country can give a good idea of how it looked.
The colours currently shown for SoW suggest a spring-look, where the fields are quite a lush green. In the summer of 1940, it was one of the hottest summers' on record, and the fields would have had a burnished look.
I do understand your theories of colour though; it will differen between each PC, but this is just my observation ;)

Winny, there weren't rape-fields in England in 1940. I know you weren't saying there are, but I'm just pointing it out. It's interesting to compare a modern-day picture with one from 1940.

To which Oleg could of course answer that he has flown over England more than twenty times and has taken many photos there himself.

Also, Oleg is continuously showing an immense depth of knowledge about colour theory, which makes it all the more galling to have teenagers telling him... "not to be rude, but have you flown over England?" and flaunting their total lack of tact and understanding of the issues. Also, more importantly, a lack of understanding of what WIP and "development shots" mean.

People like philip.ed and Hecke and Tree should really understand their own limitations a bit more, and not think they can EDUCATE Oleg on the many issues involved in creating a world class flight sim.

Of course Oleg replies more to the annoying trolling than to polite well thought-out postings. The trolling follows the usual pattern of "your work is really quite crap, here is how you should do it". If it was me being told that, I too would reply to it before dealing with other postings.

It is just quite sad that impolite know-alls have totally taken over this forum and spam it just to pump up their +1000 post count...

philip.ed

11-15-2010, 08:46 PM

That's one example, Freycinet, and I never said I was perfect:
quote from me above: I may have posted saying things like 'the smoke looks awful', but really I hope to never do so again.

Maybe you should read all my postings before you comment?

Also, this was a question to Oleg for him to reply. In general I was suggesting the vast difference in summer-time colours vs any other time of the year. Oleg has flown over the country a number of times which he said in answer. I just wanted to see where he was basing the colour from. Cynical of me, maybe, but it was nice to see just how extensive his research had gone.

I could similarly find posts from you where you are flagrantly rude to forum members which in every sense is just
pointless. But doing so won't achieve anything and neither is you posting this. It was for Oleg to answer, not you. He doesn't need you to hold his hand. I think it's clear he's said as such and I'm not alone in saying this.
You can't condemn a man for one post ;)

Anyway, what's your issue? At the end of the day; Oleg told people like you to stop doing this; he has no issue with people asking questions. ;)

Blackdog_kt

11-15-2010, 09:45 PM

Yes, an example of an insufferable, arrogant and impolite posting by philip.ed would be this one:

To which Oleg could of course answer that he has flown over England more than twenty times and has taken many photos there himself.

Also, Oleg is continuously showing an immense depth of knowledge about colour theory, which makes it all the more galling to have teenagers telling him... "not to be rude, but have you flown over England?" and flaunting their total lack of tact and understanding of the issues. Also, more importantly, a lack of understanding of what WIP and "development shots" mean.

People like philip.ed and Hecke and Tree should really understand their own limitations a bit more, and not think they can EDUCATE Oleg on the many issues involved in creating a world class flight sim.

Of course Oleg replies more to the annoying trolling than to polite well thought-out postings. The trolling follows the usual pattern of "your work is really quite crap, here is how you should do it". If it was me being told that, I too would reply to it before dealing with other postings.

It is just quite sad that impolite know-alls have totally taken over this forum and spam it just to pump up their +1000 post count...

Actually i disagree. Philip thinking he knows better might grind your gears, but his post is not rude. I too think he's way too pedantic sometimes over details that are trivial to me. Obviously, they are not trivial to him and vice versa, some of the items on my wishlist might be complete non-issues to him.
So, who decides which one of us is "rude" and should "shut up", as so many people feel inclined to tell others on this forum lately? Maybe they think that playing "knight protector of mr Maddox" will result in a signed copy of SoW arriving at their doorstep a little sooner, who knows? :confused:

You see, polite or rude has to to do with the delivery of the message first and foremost and this we can argue about.
The actual content of the message however is not manner which conforms to certain established norms of social interaction, but a personal thing for everyone that's free to be shaped in accordance to their own preferences and called an opinion.

You seem to have a problem accepting different ones. That's the whole issue really, at least in my personal, non-rudely presented opinion :-P

klem

11-15-2010, 10:16 PM

Flying_Nutcase

11-15-2010, 10:29 PM

Hi Oleg,

Just in case my previous post about hand-signals was lost in the mass of off-topic banter and abuse, are you able to comment on any hand-signal animations coded into SoW for coop/online play?

For example:
- Being able to wave to a buddy flying along side
- Giving the thumbs up
- Giving a salute

Being able to do that as a gunner would be really cool too.

Just a little thing that would be great for immersion.

Flying Nutcase

Richie

11-15-2010, 10:38 PM

Stop haranging people and ask simple to the point questions lol

SlipBall

11-15-2010, 11:05 PM

nearmiss

11-15-2010, 11:10 PM

+1..I like it

plus I want to be able to flip the bird, at some of the chatty pilots in this thread:grin:

What would be the point?

The only time it's a joy is when you are face to face looking your adversary straight in the eye.

Otherwise, you'll just catch heat.

SlipBall

11-15-2010, 11:12 PM

Ha ha:grin:

Skoshi Tiger

11-15-2010, 11:26 PM

+1..I like it

plus I want to be able to flip the bird, at some of the chatty pilots in this thread:grin:

But it could become a universal signal to display annoyance at shoulder shooting!

fruitbat

11-15-2010, 11:26 PM

oh come on, it would be great to able to flip the bird inverted above your victim.

heywooood

11-15-2010, 11:30 PM

or rather it smells like dead horses :neutral:

that was my point - see Canadians DO think alike

heywooood

11-15-2010, 11:34 PM

Folks,

Please be patient to each other.
It is more easy to put the link to any of my answers that to show others, who repeat the questions or so...

Please.

the voice of reason...please to read the above with attention and maybe we can leave the 'zoo behind us

Richie

11-15-2010, 11:44 PM

Hi Oleg.

I think if the game goes on to Russia in the future you should do a skin of this JG 54 G2 witch really existed in real life.

Richie

11-15-2010, 11:47 PM

It looks like a real warrior and the you know what is painted over.

BadAim

11-16-2010, 01:23 AM

+1

Pretty cleary read it that way too - why are people now falling over each other rehashing old questions? Dear god, this is beyond embarrassment!

(or have I missed something)

- late edit: my support of the above quote went as far as the 1st line - I was not endorsing bashing moderators!

I did not believe that I was bashing anyone, but obviously I don't know what that means, or I simply misunderstood the tone of said post. (which is the most likely scenario)

Freycinet

11-16-2010, 09:39 AM

That's one example, Freycinet, and I never said I was perfect:
quote from me above: I may have posted saying things like 'the smoke looks awful', but really I hope to never do so again.

I am actually quite happy to see that you seem (in your latest postings) to have gotten the message that I have so rudely conveyed. I tried with politeness before, but didn't get though. I am glad that we agree to not suppose imbecility in the minds of the developers, and instead give them the credit the amply deserve (based on the updates and movies we´ve seen from them).

It is great to have a channel to the developers, I think both we and they can benefit from the exchanges here, as long as they make a bit sense, i.e. do not demean them over WIP updates and obvious place-holders, or show a total disregard for the obvious limits imposed on sim development by computing power and time and economy constraints.

major_setback

11-16-2010, 09:52 AM

There are 3 or 4 people who talk about each other.
This is not about you! You are spoiling it completely for the hundreds of people who come to this thread for information on BoB.

swiss

11-16-2010, 10:10 AM

There are 3 or 4 people who talk about each other.
This is not about you! You are spoiling it completely for the hundreds of people who come to this thread for information on BoB.

This is the Internet, selective reading skills are a must. ;)

LoBiSoMeM

11-16-2010, 10:17 AM

People see this great update, with this amazing video footage, and keep fighting about nothing.

Strange community sometimes...

engarde

11-16-2010, 10:28 AM

There are 3 or 4 people who talk about each other.
This is not about you! You are spoiling it completely for the hundreds of people who come to this thread for information on BoB.

so true.

and so often the original post is lost amongst forum 'experts' posting increasingly useless minutiae in an attempt to checkmate a thread poster.

in my opinion, every Maddox post should be locked.

so, idiots cant pollute the information, and those that dont give a damn about some unknowns useless opinion can read the devs contribution unhindered.

winny

11-16-2010, 11:02 AM

Maybe have a locked thread where any direct comment OM makes about SoW could be put.

Title it.. 'Before you get any more ideas above your station, read these'.

Then at least someone with a genuine question can get a reply and people would also have a starting point. Not saying someone should go back and trawl all OM's old posts but it could start anytime.

klem

11-16-2010, 11:07 AM

Hi Oleg,

well I finally found a way to read all your posts (thanks to Urufu).

I have read through all of them but can't find answers to a couple of my questions - perhaps you answered them somewhere else that I can't find. So may I ask them again?

You wrote that thermals will be avaiable. Will this and general turbulence be adjustable at various altitudes? Also, the turbulence in IL-2 seems quite coarse/rough, almost on/off at even lower settings. I'd like to see more use of turbulence but I think the mission builders leave it out because it is too coarse especially for upper layers.

You gave an answer on the question about different tracers being selectable by the players (probably not) but did not say if DeWilde ammunition would actually be available. Can you tell us please?

With respect, my feeling is that IL-2 landings (gear modelling) is not very realistic, the Oleo compression seems to be too harsh and if one wheel of many fighters touches even the smallest amount before the other the aircraft bounces around wildly. (I don't mean to be rude but I don't know how else to say this.) Will the SoW gear be more forgiving?

I hope you can answer these but if there are reasons why you can't could you just say "I can't answer just now" so that I know the post has been seen?

Many thanks,

philip.ed

11-16-2010, 04:06 PM

Come on guys, talking about how you all agree that members are doing 'such and such' just lowers you to their(our) level.

Winny; I think I said that in a seperate topic I while ago. I think the consensus was that it's a bit pointless...the same thing will probably happen.
I don't know. If I had more time I'd be tempted to put together a comprehensive topic for all of Oleg's questions and Answers so that people can resort to this if they want to check-up on any answers. I don't have the time though.
I have always thought a list of what Oleg has revealed will be included in the sim would be nice, especially if the list was split into categories (e.g. one category for AI, another for the terrain, etc) I know that Heinkill put together something similar a while back.

Klem; regarding tracer this may be interesting to you:

The incendiary ammunition was also variable in performance. Comparative British tests of British .303" and German 7.92 mm incendiary ammunition against the self-sealing wing tanks in the Blenheim, also fired from 200 yards (180m) astern, revealed that the .303" B. Mk IV incendiary tracer (based on the First World War Buckingham design – it was ignited on firing and burned on its way to the target) and the 7.92 mm were about equal, each setting the tanks alight with about one in ten shots fired. The B. Mk VI 'De Wilde' incendiary (named after the original Belgian inventor but in fact completely redesigned by Major Dixon), which contained 0.5 grams of SR 365 (a composition including barium nitrate which ignited on impact with the target) was twice as effective as these, scoring one in five.

The 'De Wilde' bullets were first issued in June 1940 and tested operationally in the air battles over Dunkirk. Their improved effectiveness, coupled with the fact that the flash on impact indicated that the shooting was on target, was much appreciated by the fighter pilots. It was at first in short supply, and the initial RAF fighter loading was three guns loaded with ball, two with AP, two with Mk IV incendiary tracer and one with Mk VI incendiary. Another source for the Battle of Britain armament gives four guns with ball, two with AP and two with incendiaries (presumably Mk VI) with four of the last 25 rounds being tracer (presumably Mk IV incendiary/tracer) to tell the pilot he was running out of ammunition. It is not clear why ball was used at all; presumably there was a shortage of the more effective loadings. (By 1942 the standard loading for fixed .303s was half loaded with AP and half with incendiary.)

It's from an article written by Tony Williams (I don't know if he's famous or not). In one or two SoW videos, I'm sure I saw a 'flash' from hits from a Spitfire/Hurricane, which might indicate de-wilde ammunition.
It's interesting to read about the tracer, because apparently it did burn, and so left a smoke-trail (Williams says this) Oleg did say this is being modelled; I'm not sure if he had the relevent info on the MarkIV tracer, but I'm sure he does :D

klem

11-16-2010, 04:13 PM

Thanks philip,

I did know that background but I don't know if Oleg is giving us DeWilde in SoW. Actually, I don't know if he gives us it in IL-2, for some reason I have it in mind that he didn't, but let's stay on SoW ;)

philip.ed

11-16-2010, 04:21 PM

I'd be interested to know too. Based on what he's revealed about modelling different armament types, I'd imagine it would be included. It's quite an important part of the shooting experience IMO ;)

MD_Titus

11-16-2010, 05:28 PM

ATAG_Dutch

11-16-2010, 05:32 PM

I'd be interested to know too. Based on what he's revealed about modelling different armament types, I'd imagine it would be included. It's quite an important part of the shooting experience IMO ;)

In (virtual) reality though, when blazing away at a Ju88 with two 109's on our tails, how are we going to assess whether a certain ammo mix is more or less effective than another? Or even more true to life?

I know I've not even considered ammo in IL2, other than the obvious differences between MG's and Cannon and the different calibres.

Perhaps I'm not cool, calm and steely eyed enough to assess these complicated issues in the heat of combat?!:rolleyes::grin:

nearmiss

11-16-2010, 06:05 PM

In (virtual) reality though, when blazing away at a Ju88 with two 109's on our tails, how are we going assess whether a certain ammo mix is more or less effective than another? Or even more true to life?

I know I've not even considered ammo in IL2, other than the obvious differences between MG's and Cannon and the different calibres.

Perhaps I'm not cool, calm and steely eyed enough to assess these complicated issues in the heat of combat?!:rolleyes::grin:

I think we are all going to learn alot about type of ammo we use in the SOW.

The British aircraft are using pea shooter .303.

It will take alot of lead to put down any German aircraft with .303 unless we have some sophisticated ammo loadouts.

I still do the BOB II WOV. I can't tell you how many times I have emptied my guns and didn't knock down a single aircraft.

Finally, I learned to get extremely close before firing...then and only then do I get kills.

The SOW will definitely be a new world for most of us after we've been flying the late war aircraft in IL2 with all the firepower available.

6guns x 50calibers vs 6 guns X .303 calibers

Yes, I know the British did some miraculous work in the BOB.

nearmiss

11-16-2010, 06:15 PM

I'd be interested to know too. Based on what he's revealed about modelling different armament types, I'd imagine it would be included. It's quite an important part of the shooting experience IMO ;)

You really ought to get very involved with the IL2. You are wasting alot of time asking questions that you can answer yourself, if you were virtual flying.

Take the IL2 with the TD latest release 4.09, try the full mission builder, and do some online flying. You will find chit chat talk really isn't where the action really is.

People that are flying and enjoying the IL2 are not dropping onto these boards very much.

One super way to enjoy the IL2 is build missions and follow behind the player aircraft in the missions. Then you can see what to tweak, where you need to implement more action elements, etc.

Also, get a good air war history book and try to replay those historical air combat missions. You will really be touching history and you will definitely begin to understand what those combat pilots were up against.

You have appx 1/3 more posting than I, and I "have to work these boards"... also I've been here a lot longer than yourself.

ATAG_Dutch

11-16-2010, 06:34 PM

I think we are all going to learn alot about type of ammo we use in the SOW.
The British aircraft are using pea shooter .303.
It will take alot of lead to put down any German aircraft with .303 unless we have some sophisticated ammo loadouts.
I still do the BOB II WOV. I can't tell you how many times I have emptied my guns and didn't knock down a single aircraft.
Finally, I learned to get extremely close before firing...then and only then do I get kills.
The SOW will definitely be a new world for most of us after we've been flying the late war aircraft in IL2 with all the firepower available.
6guns x 50calibers vs 8 guns X .303 calibers
Yes, I know the British did some miraculous work in the BOB.

Agreed! What I meant was how will we know if a kill is made due to ammo mix, as against just happening to hit a vital part of the aircraft whilst trying to avoid return fire and the fighter escorts?

The 8 and 12 x .303 gun Hurris were in IL2 though, from FB on, also in Pacific Fighters, and worked fine. Didn't the early P-40's in IL2 also carry .303's? Or were they all .50 cal?

ATAG_Dutch

11-16-2010, 06:46 PM

You really ought to get very involved with the IL2. You are wasting alot of time asking questions that you can answer yourself, if you were virtual flying.

You have appx 1/3 more posting than I, and I "have to work these boards"... also I've been here a lot longer than yourself.

Funnily enough, I've been wondering myself when a lot of people on the forum find the time to actually fly a flight sim.

Maybe some people just prefer to use virtual words than virtual bullets, whether piercing, incendiary, or just plain 'ball-shot'.:rolleyes::grin:

philip.ed

11-16-2010, 06:51 PM

In (virtual) reality though, when blazing away at a Ju88 with two 109's on our tails, how are we going assess whether a certain ammo mix is more or less effective than another? Or even more true to life?

I know I've not even considered ammo in IL2, other than the obvious differences between MG's and Cannon and the different calibres.

Perhaps I'm not cool, calm and steely eyed enough to assess these complicated issues in the heat of combat?!:rolleyes::grin:

In Il-2, I fly the Hurri mark 1's a lot and those 8 .303's pump out a lot of tracer! So much so that it can impair my visibility of the target. If I could select to have tracer in just 2-guns, my shooting would be a lot better ;)

Each to his own, though.

Nearmiss; I know what you mean, but I don't post to raise my post-count. I never look at it in any-case. It's only my interest in SoW which has raised it so high.
I do fly Il-2 a lot (or have done in any case). Recently, I've put work first as I prefer to fly longer sorties (based on BoB campaigns and day-to-day episodes) and I don't have enough time, really, to fully enjoy Il-2 as I'd like ;)

Battle of Britain aviation history is my main interest (I collect BoB flight-gear) and a lot of my reading is both fictional and non-fictional books on this subject ;)

Thankyou.

Richie

11-16-2010, 06:53 PM

Here's a picture of a Lancaster in Kelowna BC 1999. To change to a cool subject :)

Triggaaar

11-16-2010, 06:58 PM

What I meant was how will we know if a kill is made due to ammo mix, as against just happening to hit a vital part of the aircraft whilst trying to avoid return fire and the fighter escorts?Why would you need to know? If you want to know for training purposes, just set-up an off-line mission where you shoot at an enemy bomber that is unarmed, and keep practicing with different ammo mixes, and see how much damage you can do. Am I missing your point (if so, what is it)?

ATAG_Dutch

11-16-2010, 07:07 PM

Why would you need to know? If you want to know for training purposes, just set-up an off-line mission where you shoot at an enemy bomber that is unarmed, and keep practicing with different ammo mixes, and see how much damage you can do. Am I missing your point (if so, what is it)?

I don't really need to know, which is my point!:)

Phil called it 'an important part of the shooting experience'.
If I'm shooting at something in online combat, there is so much movement that it's impossible to see how many bullet strikes there are in any given burst, let alone what proportion of which bullet made the hit.

Plus, I'm usually far too adrenalised to analyse the results with any semblance of empiricism.:grin:

philip.ed

11-16-2010, 07:17 PM

By important, I also meant the fun-factor; the fun (be it slightly destructive) of seeing your bullets destroy the enemy A/C. Personally, I'd love to try out different types of ammo, as it would really put me into the genre, and feel like I have a lot of control over my own, personal, plane. at the end of the day, whether you can shoot down that enemy A/C can be a life or death situation. Luckily this isn't the case literally for us, but it really adds to the immersion :cool:

Redwan

11-16-2010, 07:19 PM

@Redwan, look at this:
http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/3816/shot20101022183530.jpg

And don't forget all is WORK IN PROGRESS

Yes, this one is very good and, dare we say, almost photorealistic :o !!! Nothing to say ... it looks even more perfect because there are no clouds in this screen, my other subject of worries about BoB :(

http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/2224/80540008.jpg

swiss

11-16-2010, 07:20 PM

Maybe a lot of the ppl think if they had different ammo/mix/more or less tracers they would score more kills.

I hate to tell you but: That's an illusion.

It's not the ammo, it's the pilot.

Trumper

11-16-2010, 07:29 PM

swiss

11-16-2010, 07:37 PM

A huge majority of real fighter pilots never scored a kill let alone made "Ace".
In reality a large percentage of us will get shot down,injured and killed before getting any hits to take the opposition down.

"in reality", most of us wouldn't even make it off the runway.
(includes me)

ATAG_Dutch

11-16-2010, 07:40 PM

Maybe a lot of the ppl think if they had different ammo/mix/more or less tracers they would score more kills.

I hate to tell you but: That's an illusion.

It's not the ammo, it's the pilot.

Well I suppose that's what I was trying to say, albeit slightly more diplomatically.:grin:

(I'm upset no-one thought my 'ball-shot' joke was funny!:))

Redwan

11-16-2010, 07:42 PM

"in reality", most of us wouldn't even make it off the runway.
(includes me)

... if by miracle they manage to start the engine ....

philip.ed

11-16-2010, 07:47 PM

Maybe a lot of the ppl think if they had different ammo/mix/more or less tracers they would score more kills.

I hate to tell you but: That's an illusion.

It's not the ammo, it's the pilot.

I disagree, and I tested this out in Il-2 by launching a mission against a lone (friendly) heinkel in Il-2 flying the Hurricane mark 1 and then the Spit Mark V using only the .303's. Consequently, the Hurricane would spit the tracer from all 8 guns, whereas the Spit would only be shooting it from 4 (so half).
I scored more hits with the spit than I did with the Hurri in a period of 15 seconds firing short bursts. The reason? I could see my target, and where my tracer was going! I know exactly what you mean, Swiss, but many pilots chose to limit their tracer to just one or 2 guns to give a clearer view of the target when firing (even burst firing with the 8-gun planes can be hard).
As with ammo, I agree; more destructive ammo, in ever sense, just compensates for pilot error (unless the pilot is skilled enough to know when to use it).

I'm not disagreeing with you entirely, but that's my experience from Il-2 and BoB2-WoV. I've ready many accounts from pilots who have said the same thing, too.

Redwan

11-16-2010, 08:28 PM

I've ready many accounts from pilots who have said the same thing, too.

Do you mean real pilots ?

philip.ed

11-16-2010, 08:37 PM

Do you mean real pilots ?

Yes; real ww2 pilots ;)

Redwan

11-16-2010, 09:00 PM

Its seems obvious that tracers are very helpfull when aiming at the ennemi. I'm surprised that it doesn't seem obvious for anywone ... who has played IL2.

Splitter

11-16-2010, 09:16 PM

Its seems obvious that tracers are very helpfull when aiming at the ennemi. I'm surprised that it doesn't seem obvious for anywone ... who has played IL2.

I'll have to go back and find it, but I do remember a report that some groups eliminated tracers completely and their effectiveness went up.

Think about it...on a longer deflection shot, tracers help. But when you a snuggled up on someone's six at close range, tracers don't matter at all. Flashes from hits tell you everything you need to know.

All AP and incendiary rounds would do more damage than replacing 20% of the ammo with less destructive tracer rounds.

Now I guess I have to go find the documents on groups eliminating tracers :)

Splitter

IceFire

11-16-2010, 09:23 PM

I'll have to go back and find it, but I do remember a report that some groups eliminated tracers completely and their effectiveness went up.

Think about it...on a longer deflection shot, tracers help. But when you a snuggled up on someone's six at close range, tracers don't matter at all. Flashes from hits tell you everything you need to know.

All AP and incendiary rounds would do more damage than replacing 20% of the ammo with less destructive tracer rounds.

Now I guess I have to go find the documents on groups eliminating tracers :)

Splitter
I remember reading the report as well. One of the USAAF fighter groups (or perhaps it was just a single squadron) decided to remove tracers from their loadouts. They found their overall scores were going up. Possibly because the enemy was not alerted by the tracers flying near their plane and possibly because it forced the pilots to not rely on tracers and instead do range/angle calculations completely in their head.

Depending on the virtual situation the lack of tracers may be or not be a useful feature. Either way I'd love to see customizable loadouts. If someone wants to not use tracers...great. If someone wants to load up a ton of tracers then ok.

SlipBall

11-16-2010, 09:45 PM

I disagree, and I tested this out in Il-2 by launching a mission against a lone (friendly) heinkel in Il-2 flying the Hurricane mark 1 and then the Spit Mark V using only the .303's. Consequently, the Hurricane would spit the tracer from all 8 guns, whereas the Spit would only be shooting it from 4 (so half).
I scored more hits with the spit than I did with the Hurri in a period of 15 seconds firing short bursts. The reason? I could see my target, and where my tracer was going! I know exactly what you mean, Swiss, but many pilots chose to limit their tracer to just one or 2 guns to give a clearer view of the target when firing (even burst firing with the 8-gun planes can be hard).
As with ammo, I agree; more destructive ammo, in ever sense, just compensates for pilot error (unless the pilot is skilled enough to know when to use it).

I'm not disagreeing with you entirely, but that's my experience from Il-2 and BoB2-WoV. I've ready many accounts from pilots who have said the same thing, too.

Your problem may be that you are too far away and impatient. Practice getting closer, and work on leading your target when firing;)

klem

11-16-2010, 09:54 PM

Why would you need to know? If you want to know for training purposes, just set-up an off-line mission where you shoot at an enemy bomber that is unarmed, and keep practicing with different ammo mixes, and see how much damage you can do. Am I missing your point (if so, what is it)?

The reason I am hoping for DeWilde (reasonably simulated) is that in IL-2 I am often thinking I am not hitting the target when my buddies are saying things like "good hits klem". For some reason many of my hits don't show to me.

Perhaps my assumption that we don't have DeWilde in IL-2 is wrong and it is my PC (AMD 3800+, 2.4GHz, 2 x 7800GTs). If there's no DeWilde, perhaps not all other ammo hits 'flash' on impact (but my buddies see them?). Perhaps it won't happen in SoW but I would be happier to know we have DeWilde :)

fruitbat

11-16-2010, 10:03 PM

i'd much rather have DeWilde than tracer personally.

tracer makes little diff to me, i'd still hit without it (in il2) just because i've fired so much in il2 over the years, and its second nature where to aim. Seeing your rounds hit is much more useful imo, because then you know you've hit.

WTE_Galway

11-16-2010, 10:41 PM

Interview with:
CAPTAIN J. J. FOSS, USMC
US medal of honor
Executive Officer, VMF-121
Bureau of Aeronautics
26 April 1943

http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Aircraft/VMF-121/

Q. What do you think of the use of tracer? Did you use your tracer for sighting?

A. Yes, sir. To start out I used the sight. After I got started, however, I just dropped my seat clear down so that I wouldn't have my neck stuck out and just barely looked over the edge. Then I used my tracer altogether, but, I had previously used the sight enough to know right where to shoot.

As for deflection shots, I'd always lead enough so that I'd never underlead. I'd always over-lead. When you overlead, you just ease forward on your stick and you can always see as far as the axis where he's going to go. You shoot in front of him and just ease forward on your stick. He flies right into it - you see your tracer work right on him. And on the tail end shot just give a burst of tracer, If it's over or under, you just go up or down.

I never wanted to sit up high enough to look at the sight. I just stayed down. To start with, I flew around looking in the sight. It works fine, as far as the sight goes; but after a while you don't need it. Is fact, I don't believe any of the boys that had been in combat a lot were using it; they all slid away down in the seat.

Q. Depended entirely on tracer?

A. Yes, sir.

Richie

11-16-2010, 10:43 PM

Hey Philip what servers do you like to fly in on the Hyperlobby? I'm always in Spits VS 109s:Mods witch I do terrible in for my experience of thirteen years flying sims and tens years in IL-2. I used to do much better but I don't like my stick at all and I need to get some monitor distance glasses made...getting older lol

winny

11-16-2010, 11:25 PM

About Tracers/Ammo mix.

The standard RAF loadouts at the start of the BoB. On an 8 x.303 gun aircraft
3 Guns loaded with bog standard .303 ball ammo
2 Guns loaded with Armour piercing
2 Guns loaded with Mk IV Incendiary Tracer (burns on way to target)
1 Gun loaded with Mk VI De Wilde

Or

4 Guns loaded with ball
2 with AP
2 with MK VI, the last 4 rounds were all Mk IV tracer to let the pilot know when the ammo had run out

Unlike the other Air forces of WWII the RAF preferred to load each gun with only one type of ammo.

bf-110

11-16-2010, 11:27 PM

Something I forgot to ask is if SoW tanks (and grounds objects in general) will have different skins for different battlefield (desert,regular green,snow...)?

speculum jockey

11-17-2010, 12:19 AM

Something I forgot to ask is if SoW tanks (and grounds objects in general) will have different skins for different battlefield (desert,regular green,snow...)?

Eventually, but right now they're probably all going to be summer 1940 style camouflage (I'm guessing) since there isn't any real need for additional paint schemes. Adding them doesn't take long at all, and you'll probably see that if they do N. Africa or the invasion of Russia.

Splitter

11-17-2010, 01:01 AM

Blackdog_kt

11-17-2010, 04:00 AM

i lol'd at this thread. then i held my head in my hands.

anyway.

varying ammo loadouts... has that been covered in any way? where we could make the choice, as with some of the new 4.09 rides, whether we take tracer in all guns etc? would it be practical/historic to specify belting in either the bob or later theatres?

I think this has been confirmed by mr. Maddox himself very recently. It's either in the thread about the Igromir expo, or even in this very topic. I don't know if it's a feature we'll see right away on release, but i have a distinct recollection that he did talk about personalizing the ammo belt loadouts being included in the simulator at some point.

Skoshi Tiger

11-17-2010, 04:54 AM

That kind of makes sense. Different ammo cycles the gun differently. Mixing ammo could cause "short cycles" jamming the gun. And for other reasons, one type of ammo per gun makes sense.

Splitter

Also would it allow you to harmonize the gun so all the different ammo types were converging at the same point?

swiss

11-17-2010, 08:22 AM

. Mixing ammo could cause "short cycles" jamming the gun. And for other reasons, one type of ammo per gun makes sense.
Splitter

But they mixed ammo in reality, probably for a good reason.

If I had to bet, I'd say the tracer-only gun will fail first.
(take a guess why)

brando

11-17-2010, 08:43 AM

But they mixed ammo in reality, probably for a good reason.

If I had to bet, I'd say the tracer-only gun will fail first.
(take a guess why)

Due to barrel fouling? Well yes, perhaps the tracer round would cause that - but the armourers would be cleaning and checking all the guns after a day. Excessively pitted barrels would be replaced pretty smartly.

winny

11-17-2010, 09:13 AM

Also, some of the RAF pilots didn't like having the last 4 rounds in the incendiary guns to be tracer because thay noticed that some of the German pilots were waiting till they saw them before they engaged.

I can find no mention of the RAF fighter command using mixed ammo belts till 1942. (I'm talking MG wise, not cannons).

I've no idea what Bomber commands practice was.

swiss

11-17-2010, 09:15 AM

Due to barrel fouling? Well yes, perhaps the tracer round would cause that - but the armourers would be cleaning and checking all the guns after a day. Excessively pitted barrels would be replaced pretty smartly.

In fact the whole gun will be full of this ugly stuff, everywhere. :-x

swiss

11-17-2010, 09:22 AM

Also, some of the RAF pilots didn't like having the last 4 rounds in the incendiary guns to be tracer because thay noticed that some of the German pilots were waiting till they saw them before they engaged.

I doubt it, since you could use this behavior in your favor. ;)

winny

11-17-2010, 10:10 AM

I doubt it, since you could use this behavior in your favor. ;)

It's true.

speculum jockey

11-17-2010, 12:27 PM

Gunners in US torpedo and dive bombers in the pacific used to throw empty ammo cans out of their cockpits to bait Japanese fighters into getting cocky and approaching from behind instead of slashing attacks from above or the side.

1.JaVA_Sharp

11-17-2010, 01:06 PM

I remember reading the report as well. One of the USAAF fighter groups (or perhaps it was just a single squadron) decided to remove tracers from their loadouts. They found their overall scores were going up. Possibly because the enemy was not alerted by the tracers flying near their plane and possibly because it forced the pilots to not rely on tracers and instead do range/angle calculations completely in their head.

Depending on the virtual situation the lack of tracers may be or not be a useful feature. Either way I'd love to see customizable loadouts. If someone wants to not use tracers...great. If someone wants to load up a ton of tracers then ok.

easy solution: tracers or no tracers become a difficulty option. But what does Oleg say?

winny

11-17-2010, 01:31 PM

The way I understand it the 2nd loadout I mentioned, (no tracer) was deemed to be the better option because if you missed when you were bouncing someone (as most BoB encounters seem to have started) they didn't know about it, if you miss with tracer it let's them know you're there.

Daniël

11-17-2010, 01:59 PM

A huge majority of real fighter pilots never scored a kill let alone made "Ace".
In reality a large percentage of us will get shot down,injured and killed before getting any hits to take the opposition down.

About 5% of the pilots was responsible for about 40% of enemy aircraft that were shot down. The other pilots couldn't shoot or were too busy to not get shot down so they could not fire.

Icewolf

11-17-2010, 02:16 PM

easy solution: tracers or no tracers become a difficulty option. But what does Oleg say?

good question but I think it already has been asked but worth repeating.

BUT there is so much idiot spam on this thread I doubt Oleg reads it anymore

speculum jockey

11-17-2010, 02:27 PM

I'd like a few preset options for online games in a pulldown menu. Sort of like in IL-2 when you can select your bombload/gun loadout/fuel. That way people who like lots of tracers or non will have that option.

Another option or addition to that could be people saving their preferred tracer/ap/inc/ball loadout on their PC's then that preset being an option for them when they play online.

klem

11-17-2010, 03:14 PM

I think this has been confirmed by mr. Maddox himself very recently. It's either in the thread about the Igromir expo, or even in this very topic. I don't know if it's a feature we'll see right away on release, but i have a distinct recollection that he did talk about personalizing the ammo belt loadouts being included in the simulator at some point.

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=6909

See questions 44, 89, 94. No definite info on which types though. Can't remember if there were any more in the 20 pages of Oleg's Answers I filtered on but I do remember question 44. Maybe have a look yourself?

Why do these good threads start and then die? Maybe because it was supposed to be a collection of Oleg's answers (which we would all like) but before the end of page 1 everyone and his dog started dropping 60 pages of their own opinions on top of what was looking like a valuable service. Still, it looks like everyone got bored by July and moved onto the Friday updates. Yes I know I'm moaning. I've been trying to get a couple of questions some attention for a while now.

Maybe I just need a stiff drink.

I'll stick to filtering on posts by Oleg.

Finally finding my way around but it hasn't been that easy.

Blackdog_kt

11-17-2010, 03:53 PM

Actually i think i got glimpse of it in a much more recent thread. I'll try filtering Oleg's posts by date or searching within this and the Igromir thread.

Richie

11-17-2010, 09:09 PM

Make the Box Art like a blended collage and have something like this for the German part. It's different and very effective.

swiss

11-17-2010, 10:00 PM

Make the Box Art like a blended collage and have something like this for the German part. It's different and very effective.

wrong thread.;)

Richie

11-17-2010, 10:16 PM

Oops :)

Screamadelica

11-18-2010, 09:27 AM

Thanks Oleg, this is looking spectacular. Wonderful nightime shot, can't wait to see the moonlight on the wings. Lovely.

SQB

11-18-2010, 09:31 AM

"in reality", most of us wouldn't even make it off the runway.
(includes me)

swiss, dont be that way :D

i tried a flight the other day in a single prop plane... i didnt even have a license back then

Richie

11-18-2010, 09:41 AM

I flew a small plane also, a Cessna 172. That day there were no thermals so there was no bouncing or anything like that. All I had to do was look at the compass and check a dip in the hill..small mountain where we were heading to and keep heading for that spot. A lot easier than driving.

Freycinet

11-18-2010, 11:14 AM

Now try that with a Merlin in front...

Hint: you wouldn´t last long.

swiss

11-18-2010, 02:21 PM

swiss, dont be that way :D

i tried a flight the other day in a single prop plane... i didnt even have a license back then

How did you start the engine? Press "I"? ;)

and that sure was a solo flight, right?

David603

11-18-2010, 03:02 PM

easy solution: tracers or no tracers become a difficulty option. But what does Oleg say?
I don't see that tracers should be a difficulty option. Historically some planes had tracers, some didn't and there was a lot of choice, even between aircraft in the same squadron. Customisable (historic) loadouts would therefore IMO be a much better way of doing things.

AWL_Spinner

11-18-2010, 04:20 PM

Customisable (historic) loadouts would therefore IMO be a much better way of doing things.

I think the operative word there is historic. It will get very tiresome very quickly online if it becomes stuffed with goons who find it entertaining to load 100% tracer and pretend they have laser cannons.

David603

11-18-2010, 04:32 PM

I think the operative word there is historic. It will get very tiresome very quickly online if it becomes stuffed with goons who find it entertaining to load 100% tracer and pretend they have laser cannons.
Of course.

Otherwise I'm going to take a Spitfire, load up all 8 guns with de Wilde ammo (maybe 2 inner with mixed tracer/de Wilde) and watch as everything I shoot at immediately bursts into flames ;)

I think Oleg already said there will be a number of loadout options for ammo, which to me would imply being able to select from preset options (hopefully historical), rather than full customisation.

C_G

11-18-2010, 04:46 PM

Of course.

Otherwise I'm going to take a Spitfire, load up all 8 guns with de Wilde ammo (maybe 2 inner with mixed tracer/de Wilde) and watch as everything I shoot at immediately bursts into flames ;)

I think Oleg already said there will be a number of loadout options for ammo, which to me would imply being able to select from preset options (hopefully historical), rather than full customisation.

I'd prefer full customisation myself, even to allow non-historic loadouts.

The way to "control the goons" (for those who wish to do so) is to make the ammo selection settings controllable by the server host, imo.

David603

11-18-2010, 04:57 PM

Blackdog_kt

11-18-2010, 05:20 PM

I'd prefer full customisation myself, even to allow non-historic loadouts.

The way to "control the goons" (for those who wish to do so) is to make the ammo selection settings controllable by the server host, imo.

That could work, something like a switch that allows fully customisable/historical only ammo loadouts.

On the other hand, if someone does want to load up full tracer, good for me/you, bad for them. They will do less damage, alert every player within miles to the fact they are firing and probably have a hard time seeing what they are shooting at.

I'm going to have to agree on both counts. With the amount of customization that's being talked about, maybe this is the best way to do things.

Just as the IL2 multiplayer host enforces certain realism settings, the SoW host could enforce realism, loadouts (this is already done in IL2 as well) and even mod settings. It would streamline things considerably.

For example, since modding support is said to be built into the engine, it won't be necessary to alter core game files to mod things. Instead, what will probably happen is that you'll have some extra folders with your modded effects that override the defaults, or extra folders with the 3rd party aircraft that are separate from the core game files.

So, instead of having to have 3 different game installations and version switchers to be able to fly on all your favorite servers, you would be able to join everything with one installation. Upon joining, the server logic would be like this: All mods off by default, unless individually specified as on by a "flag".
This way the server's configuration file would include the appropriate flags and we wouldn't have to keep different installations on our disks. Hope i'm making sense.

major_setback

11-18-2010, 08:20 PM

Make the Box Art like a blended collage and have something like this for the German part. It's different and very effective.http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/attachment.php?attachmentid=3947&d=1290031718

Do you realize that the artist who painted that picture is a forum member here? He has posted in this thread.

fireflyerz

11-18-2010, 08:24 PM

do you mean Dietz...?

major_setback

11-18-2010, 08:26 PM

do you mean Dietz...?

Yep!

fireflyerz

11-18-2010, 08:39 PM

I had a rummage through his work a few years back , its top draw stuff , he really knows how to capture the moment , would be nice to see some old fashioned artwork such as his adorning the new box....

major_setback

11-18-2010, 08:40 PM

His admirable aviation work:

http://www.jamesdietz.com/gallery/merchant.ihtml?id=11&step=2

Redwan

11-18-2010, 09:19 PM

Question about movie making.

Oleg said that BoB has special features for movie makers so I wonder if we will see the hands of the pilot in the cockpit views. It would be sad to have such nice cockpits and not being able tu use them in movies because they are empty.

Another feature was missing in Il2 but present in a simulator like Lock-On: The camera shaking. Very important for the realism !

I also hope that it will be possible to walk around on the landscape or drive a car (like in FSX) even with simple phisics.

jamesdietz

11-18-2010, 11:29 PM

That Dietz's work is a little busy for my taste...But honestly I cannot wait for this to come out even if its in a brown paper wrapper!!!!

KOM.Nausicaa

11-18-2010, 11:32 PM

That Dietz's work is a little busy for my taste...But honestly I cannot wait for this to come out even if its in a brown paper wrapper!!!!

James, I am not sure Oleg realizes what kind of artist you are. Maybe someone should point him to your work. SOW BoB with a Dietz cover would be fabulous for both of you....what do you think? Ok maybe I am dreaming, but why not? :-)

Richie

11-19-2010, 01:17 AM

Do you realize that the artist who painted that picture is a forum member here? He has posted in this thread.

Had no clue. I just know what I like.

Richie

11-19-2010, 01:21 AM

So I guess I better take down my avitar..I don't want to look like a suck up.

Solnyshko

11-19-2010, 02:48 AM

I think Oleg's on the ball when it comes to aviation art. He aproached Glen Angus a while back to work on the GUI for SoW. Sadly Angus passed away before this came to be

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i320/Solnyshko33/196992_1161966043_large.jpg

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i320/Solnyshko33/196992_1156023809_large.jpg

- also notice the background splash screens shown at Igromir - they are not screen grabs. Far from it.

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i320/Solnyshko33/034.jpg

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i320/Solnyshko33/YouTube-_1290137329170.jpg

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i320/Solnyshko33/YouTube-_1290137188144.jpg