Alchemy - Neatness Part Deux

[ckdamascus]

This has been debated before, but with the new spells costing a bit more in the crystal department, I wonder if one point in alchemy is needed or more.

It has been a while since I have gone through as an Impossible Mage Nearly No Loss, but I was fairly certain that I barely had enough crystals when I had neatness level 1.

I don't mega-farm (e.g. do the triple treasure chest thing) as much. I usually only use a small set of spells, but I just don't want to get caught with my panties down so to speak.

Is Level 1 neatness enough to get every spell in the game? (Pretty sure the answer is no).

Level 3 neatness? Does that increase the crystal break down or just the runes?

Level 1 neatness and Level 1 alchemy?

[DGDobrev]

I always go for level 3 neatness and level 0 alchemy. However, it is important to note that a mage thrives on knowing what spells to use and what spells to level up.

For example, this is my usual set of spells:

1. Defensive spells.
Stone Skin
Healing
Magic Spring
God Armor
Slow
Target (it's defensive, really)
Time Back

2. Offensive spells.
Flaming Arrow
Poison Skull
Geyser
Death Star

3. Support spells.
Eviln
Resurrection
Haste
Calm Rage
Sacrifice
Trap
Phantom

4. Other not-so useful but nice to have spells:
Battle Cry
Dragon Arrows
Call Phoenix
Oil Mist
Awaken Dragon
Demon Portal or Nature Call (fresh corpses for eviln)

I rarely use more than what I put here, but I guess I will have to try out the new spells as well, so some crystals are bound to fall there as well.

[Saiko Kila]

I have Neatness Level 1 and Alchemy Level 3 since about Level 16-18 Hero, and my crystals number is nil. And I have only Order Magic maxed. The problem with Neatness is I try to destroy only cheapest items in the first half (or even two thirds) of game, because I don't know which sets I'll get. Of course, this is that way only because I have to have every spell encountered in my spellbook, but on the other hand I level up only spells I use. And I use lots of spells.

[BB Shockwave]

Don't forget that in AP, you can trade in surplus magic crystals for runes. I plan to have high level neatness and as I am playing paladin, only learn the spells I want to use (no sense in learning any Chaos magic damage spells or Sheep, Doom, Lightning etc...) - I will keep those crystals, and trade them in for runes to boost my Rune Mages. :)

On Normal, you have tons of crystals, even without Neatness. I remember on my first walkthrough of AP with a warrior, I learned all the spells and got them to high levels because I wanted to test them... and I was still left with lots of surplus crystals.

[Zechnophobe]

I have Neatness Level 1 and Alchemy Level 3 since about Level 16-18 Hero, and my crystals number is nil. And I have only Order Magic maxed. The problem with Neatness is I try to destroy only cheapest items in the first half (or even two thirds) of game, because I don't know which sets I'll get. Of course, this is that way only because I have to have every spell encountered in my spellbook, but on the other hand I level up only spells I use. And I use lots of spells.

That's a lot of crystals to use early on. I am a little surprised you've used them up all ready with just order Magic. Helplessness, dispel (level 1, maybe level 2), healing maybe, Phoenix perhaps?

I'm almost at end of game, and couldn't quite afford to learn all the new spells, but then again some look absolutely terrible (The spit one for instance, which does fixed after effect damage... maybe it was good at level 1).

[Saiko Kila]

That's a lot of crystals to use early on. I am a little surprised you've used them up all ready with just order Magic. Helplessness, dispel (level 1, maybe level 2), healing maybe, Phoenix perhaps?

I'm almost at end of game, and couldn't quite afford to learn all the new spells, but then again some look absolutely terrible (The spit one for instance, which does fixed after effect damage... maybe it was good at level 1).

Yes, the spit is a waste now, but it's good at low level, because the poison is also fixed damage, not by percentage like all other poisons. Or to kill off severely damaged stack.

I'm surprised that I use too many crystals too, but most of the spell is on Level 1, I just scribe whatever and whenever I can. I have an artifact which gives 4 chests per battle, and have luck with spells so cannot buy them because of overfilling :)

My maxed Order are Call of Nature, Helplessness, Magic Pole-axe, Dispel, Healing, Avenging Angel, Peacefulness, Call Phoenix, Resurrection. I'm trying to max Lightning, Ice Thorns, Battle Cry, Bless, Dragon Slayer, Demon Slayer. I was thinking about Calm Rage, but with Lizard Gloves it's obsolete. But I also got second level of Chaos and can level to three (but won't for a moment, because I like Rune Mages too much ;)) These all spell are truly crystal suckers. And I found some other spells which I can't buy right now, so for me both Alchemy and Neatness are must.

[Hunkie]

This may be a little off topic, but I'd like to ask about your choice of spells. What is the best way to use Time Back? Is the spell like Teleport+Healing or what?

[Swindley]

This may be a little off topic, but I'd like to ask about your choice of spells. What is the best way to use Time Back? Is the spell like Teleport+Healing or what?

Well, it does exactly like the name applies, it turns back time for the selected troop, along with all benefits and diadvantages that might bring;)

It puts the troop in the state it was at the previous turn (positioning, losses, buff etc)
Meaning you can lose alot of troops, then turn back time to restore them. However if you first healed or buffed it, then turned back time after, it would also undo that, so use it wisely:)
Usually people use it to restore troops that they just lost.
________
Cumshot Porn (http://www.fucktube.com/categories/17/cumshot/videos/1)

[ckdamascus]

Yes, the spit is a waste now, but it's good at low level, because the poison is also fixed damage, not by percentage like all other poisons. Or to kill off severely damaged stack.

I'm surprised that I use too many crystals too, but most of the spell is on Level 1, I just scribe whatever and whenever I can. I have an artifact which gives 4 chests per battle, and have luck with spells so cannot buy them because of overfilling :)

My maxed Order are Call of Nature, Helplessness, Magic Pole-axe, Dispel, Healing, Avenging Angel, Peacefulness, Call Phoenix, Resurrection. I'm trying to max Lightning, Ice Thorns, Battle Cry, Bless, Dragon Slayer, Demon Slayer. I was thinking about Calm Rage, but with Lizard Gloves it's obsolete. But I also got second level of Chaos and can level to three (but won't for a moment, because I like Rune Mages too much ;)) These all spell are truly crystal suckers. And I found some other spells which I can't buy right now, so for me both Alchemy and Neatness are must.

I never scribe spells until I need them. And if the spell book is getting a bit overflow like, I sell them to a castle, so I can buy them back later.

I have like a spare 90 crystals just in case I need to level 3 a spell I get. I just got turn back time, but as it stands, I don't need it yet, so I would rather not spend the crystals. I also don't need to or want to max out sacrifice, since it is too mana intense for what I perceive as little benefit at this stage of the game for me. (4 trolls is enough for now, even though I can carry 9, but can't find the others yet).

I probably would not have picked all of those spells, but it is interesting to see how everyone has a different strategy.

Of your list, I have maxed

Healing, Call Phoenix, Resurrection.

Later on, if it turns out I can use ranged units, I might max Helplessness, but I didn't even learn it yet. I might also max Dispel, I only have one level on it.

[Saiko Kila]

Dispel is good when you have your troops buffed, I max it maybe not ASAP but quite fast. I don't like returning to castle, and I use sacrifice a lot because of leveling and leadership bonuses :) I don't have trolls, instead I suck from Rune Mages (buffed to max with Mind Runes).

Yes, everyone has a strategy (or couple of strategies) which suits him/her best. I noticed that of three spells I use most only Phoenix is Order Magic. Oil Mist and Flame Arrow are not, just like Trap, Fear or Stone Skin. But Phoenix should be maxed, and these other spells work almost as well at level one, IMO.

[ckdamascus]

Dispel is good when you have your troops buffed, I max it maybe not ASAP but quite fast. I don't like returning to castle, and I use sacrifice a lot because of leveling and leadership bonuses :) I don't have trolls, instead I suck from Rune Mages (buffed to max with Mind Runes).

Yes, everyone has a strategy (or couple of strategies) which suits him/her best. I noticed that of three spells I use most only Phoenix is Order Magic. Oil Mist and Flame Arrow are not, just like Trap, Fear or Stone Skin. But Phoenix should be maxed, and these other spells work almost as well at level one, IMO.

Not criticizing, just fleshing out a different style so others can adapt/learn/try. Just by reading DGD's response, you can tell his gameplay style.

I didn't say dispel isn't good, I just don't have much use for it yet. I'd almost rather just wait until later to cast resurrection, or teleport my unit, etc. The only other case is if they sheeped a key unit of mine.

There are just too many good spells to cast, and at times I feel there are so many other spells I would rather cast instead. Phantom, Stoneskin, Teleport, Call Phoenix, Healing, etc.

If only they let me cast more spells more often, then I would probably use a lot of those other spells more often. I've used them before, just I feel the alternative is so much better. I feel higher magic is too limited at times. :)

Rune Mages are AWESOME. I am seriously considering maxing out the new Archmage ability so I can get a couple more in there, but alas, priorities. Need to max the other skills first as I can live without more rune mages just like I can live without more trolls. Sniffles.

Phantom + Rune Mage + ~20 magic runes == awesome disablers :)

I might use Oil Mist with my dragons, IF I end up using dragons more than those accursed Royal Griffins.

Flame Arrow is awesome, but, I find myself casting other much better spells instead. Maybe after I hit level 35 or so, when I can max out chaos. I love the old flame arrow + poison skull combo. :(

I don't use Trap at all anymore. I sort of miss it, I only have one point in it for those situational cases. I used to spend so much time maxing them out too.

Don't care for Fear now that I have rune mage. :) Seriously, that unit alone has totally changed my game by simplifying it.

Yeah, Stoneskin is hard to get rid of, unless... or until I get my super archer team up. In my current game of mine, Stoneskin is critical.

Call Phoenix is ridiculously good, especially at level 3. Tanks the enemy, burns a counterattack, shows up immediately, basically can do up the equivalent of like 6 Level 3 flame arrows in one round, can resurrect level 5 units and ALL for 35 mana?

[Zechnophobe]

My maxed Order are Call of Nature, Helplessness, Magic Pole-axe, Dispel, Healing, Avenging Angel, Peacefulness, Call Phoenix, Resurrection. I'm trying to max Lightning, Ice Thorns, Battle Cry, Bless, Dragon Slayer, Demon Slayer. I was thinking about Calm Rage, but with Lizard Gloves it's obsolete. But I also got second level of Chaos and can level to three (but won't for a moment, because I like Rune Mages too much ;)) These all spell are truly crystal suckers. And I found some other spells which I can't buy right now, so for me both Alchemy and Neatness are must.

I think I'd really only max healing, helplessness, resurrect and maybe battle cry from that list. Of course, I don't play mage that often.

Calm rage lets you turn rage into mana during boss fights, which is pretty clutch. I don't get it very early on, but right near the end it can be nice. Same with Demon Slayer... two fights in the game make that feel a whole lot better.

[Saiko Kila]

I use Calm Rage when fighting bosses, but then I don't fight bosses till after level 30 or 40. And I play only as a Mage. In KBAP that is, in KBTL the mage was only class I didn't used (though I didn't like paladin) so probably I'm trying to make up for this now :)

Why I use some of the spells: Magic Pole-Axe is physical damage, that's whay it can be handy sometimes. Avenging Angel is many directed ligthtnings. Phoenix is the best summon, better than Infernal Dragon (I found that spell, and am underwhelmed). I use Oily Mist with Phoenix a lot (I cast it in place where phoenix will land a moment later), it makes demons susceptible to fire, which is ironic. Flame Arrow is cheap and at higher INT, levels, always burns, unlike Fireball or Fire Rain. Fear disables levels 1, 2 and 3 when fighting without witch hunters or inquisitors, and so on. Every spell has some use, but some spells are more useful. I don't invest in spells again undead, because undead enemies are usually weak, and Healing hits them nice, for instance.

[DGDobrev]

In my opinion, Magic Pole Axe is a pretty bad spell choice for a mage, and a decent one for a Paladin in the champion of the arena battles. If a player needs physical damage, he/she might be better off with Ice Snake at early levels or low-level Geyser. If those are not applicable, Flaming Arrow and Poison Skull do outstanding work. Poison Skull is probably the best spell against demons and dragons (with the exception of the bone/black dragon of course) since both have no resistance towards it and with higher intellect, the post-effect always procs, which means even more damage.

It was a lot of fun one one of the champion of the arena games I had lately - this comes as an example just how good those spells are. I tackled the metamorph with a single stack of Paladins and what do I see? Over 2k hyenas! He promptly turned them into paladins, so I hit a flaming arrow and a poison skull on that stack. Suffice it to say, they were dying by the hundreds, and the carnage was a marvel to behold. Before they actually managed to take a swing at my own paladins, those 2056 paladins were down to less than 400, which is practically nothing against a decent sized paladin stack (150+) with stone skin and magic spring on.

And that's keeping in mind I played a Paladin in this game. A mage would have done even better.

I would also like to add that in my opinion, if I mage resorts to using disabling spells like fear, slow, trap, stone wall dragon ability and such in the middle game onward, something is badly wrong with the char or army lineup. The mage's start is tough, but once he manages to hit distortion level 2 and chaos level 2-3, he gets rather overpowered (even with flaming/poison combo, backed up by mana accelerator for quick mana gain), as long as he uses units with good resistances.

EDIT: This is why I always go for neatness 3 and buy every item in this game later on. The mage is in dire need of extra might runes, and the other two types won't hurt either, because they will provide options to boost some not so necessary, but nice to have skills such as adrenaline and other skills that are deeper in the mind and might trees.

[Saiko Kila]

In my opinion, Magic Pole Axe is a pretty bad spell choice for a mage, and a decent one for a Paladin in the champion of the arena battles. If a player needs physical damage, he/she might be better off with Ice Snake at early levels or low-level Geyser. If those are not applicable, Flaming Arrow and Poison Skull do outstanding work. Poison Skull is probably the best spell against demons and dragons (with the exception of the bone/black dragon of course) since both have no resistance towards it and with higher intellect, the post-effect always procs, which means even more damage.


Magic Axe has higher instant damage (100 base) than FA (70 base) and PS (90 average) on every level. And try to use these fire or poison spells on goblin tower. Said that, I use all three of them, FA and PS for medals, and for burn/poison (though it's not reliable till later). Ice Snake and Geyser have three things that bother me personally: I'm not lucky with them, durin my previous game I hade them about Level 45, now, way past 30, I'm trying to get them still. This may be individual, but I remember getting Geyser late in KBTL games too. They are mana hungry. Most important: they are not compatible with my tactics.

In KBAP I play most figths something like this:
1. first ten rounds I keep enemies at bay and use as many burnings, poisons and stoneskins as possible, to get medals. If enemies are weak (less than lethal that is) I don't summon demons, because they would kill last stack too fast. My goal is to weaken enemy but not to kill them! And to collect 4 chests (without Shovel only 3), and to use rage, and to get experience for dragon. Experience depends on how strong are enemies when ability is used, so best is to use high exp abilities first (like lightning orb), and chests later, but if there is danger of killing enemies too fast, then I choose to dig. I use summons for that, and often evil beholders to disable the biggest but low level stack for free (if level 1 the chance is 100% I think, for level two it's smaller but some enemies almost always go to sleep).

2. after 10 rounds I aim for trapping enemies to death. Sometimes I change last flying creature to sheep (sheep can be killed by trap) and weaken it, then make corridor for it to be trapped, for example. If there is rage left, and the last stack is big enough, I use dragon abilities. And resurrect and sacrifice, to get more troops than I started with. Sacrifice is my main troop supplier, not shops. But I need time for this, so sorry, no geysers, no ice snakes, only single, directed hits (unless there is opportunity to use mass damaging spells), for better control.

3. after 20 rounds there's usually no way to get rage or mana, unless this is a specific situatiuon, like friendly gremlin tower or ghosha (sp? big death worm) and use of infernal dragon (for rage, I'm experimenting with this) or EGD (for mana). So if I have to resurrect someone after turn 20 then I may as well choose to load a previous savegame.

There are not so many figths where I want to win fast. Armageddon users and some bossess come to mind, and fights against black dragons. Sometimes I'm bored and enemy hero has too much mana for fireballs or lightnings so I end fight faster.



It was a lot of fun one one of the champion of the arena games I had lately - this comes as an example just how good those spells are. I tackled the metamorph with a single stack of Paladins and what do I see? Over 2k hyenas! He promptly turned them into paladins, so I hit a flaming arrow and a poison skull on that stack. Suffice it to say, they were dying by the hundreds, and the carnage was a marvel to behold. Before they actually managed to take a swing at my own paladins, those 2056 paladins were down to less than 400, which is practically nothing against a decent sized paladin stack (150+) with stone skin and magic spring on.


Flame and poison base on size of stack, I mix that with a new spell, previously spirit rage ability, Soul Draining, which kills up to 30% of stack. Paladins have no innate astral resistance, so it would kill over 200, 400 or 600 in first shot. And 10 mana for 200 paladins is darn cheap (just like 20 for 400), I'd said.


I would also like to add that in my opinion, if I mage resorts to using disabling spells like fear, slow, trap, stone wall dragon ability and such in the middle game onward, something is badly wrong with the char or army lineup. The mage's start is tough, but once he manages to hit distortion level 2 and chaos level 2-3, he gets rather overpowered (even with flaming/poison combo, backed up by mana accelerator for quick mana gain), as long as he uses units with good resistances.


I explained why I use these kinds of spells above. There's no problem with winning fast, the problem is with winning with as much experience and medal points and money and extra troops as possible :)

[ckdamascus]

I'm glad we had this discussion!

I forgot about Oil + Phoenix, and have promptly maxed oil out. :)

I'll probably add in magic pole axe because I really hate goblin towers and I do not have level 3 chaos yet.

I wonder if geyser can hit all the towers at once? Even so, I don't really have enough mana to do that.

Soul Drain is SOOO powerful. Haha.

[Saiko Kila]

I forgot about Oil + Phoenix, and have promptly maxed oil out. :)

I'll probably add in magic pole axe because I really hate goblin towers and I do not have level 3 chaos yet.

I wonder if geyser can hit all the towers at once? Even so, I don't really have enough mana to do that.


Fire spiders susceptible to fire... poor beasties ;)

Magic axe is not bad, but royal snakes and teleport are even better against gremlin critters, he he. Yet, there's nothing more powerful than Death Star. I get tactics only after I get Death Star :)

Some items have no friendly goblins now (or it was that way even before? Not sure) and for this reason are a bit more tricky to suppress, spells which can terminate the (weakened) goblins in an instant are good for no-loss. Pole axe has guaranteed outcome.

[DGDobrev]

Geyser can hit up to 8 targets, regardless of who or what they are. It's an amazing spell, really. The only thing that surpasses this spell is some gremlin tower arenas is death star. If the towers are properly placed, you can hit and destroy 3 or 4 of them in one shot, while geyser usually takes 2 casts.

Still, geyser owns all kinds of creatures that have less than 10% physical resistance.

EDIT: Saiko, if I sounded like criticizing your strategy, I apologize. After your thorough explanation, I can see your gameplay and I can see your style of fighting. Mine is radically different, this is why our positions differ so much.

[Saiko Kila]

Still, geyser owns all kinds of creatures that have less than 10% physical resistance.

EDIT: Saiko, if I sounded like criticizing your strategy, I apologize. After your thorough explanation, I can see your gameplay and I can see your style of fighting. Mine is radically different, this is why our positions differ so much.

Don't worry DGD, I take no offense because I understand your strategy, and know that things can be seen in different view, depending on both goals and the strategy to achieve them. In fact I am using some of strategies you've posted on this forum, in KBAP thread. I'm getting bored with one approach - I try another. But mage is so weak in the beginning that I want to make her life easier by that kind of grinding ;)

Incidentally, just after posting the previous message, I went to fight some weak hero (dragonfly from orc island) and guess what my dragon dug up for me? A Geyser scroll. I used it the next fight, against Novice Robe gremlins, and it was brutal. I like to torture my victims, not to kill them right away, but that spell will find some use for sure ;)

By the way, with 5 runemages and cloning of enemy inquisitors I was able to use the old technique from KBTL, that is to get unlimited mana thanks to Rage ability, and in turn, unlimited sacrifices and restoring my troops. The problem was lack of space for new inquisitors, to move them around. And I found some crystals and runes, as often (I keep over 20 Mind runes and 20 Magic runes unused just for Runemages)