Value of th new units: Your Thoughts

[Tianx]

Just want to share some input on what I think about the new units/ability, add in here if you have anything else to add

Rune Mage: High cost, high leadership, pretty useless for warrior, maybe okay for mage but not worth it for the cost

Orc tracker: Decent tank, but since it's level 4, hard to keep no loss, but summon unit is good for absorbing the damage. Good replacement for Dryad if you don't have any in the game

Faun: Seems good on paper but the range of the projectile is way too short. Maybe good in combo with the plant but have to try it out still. Sleeping is pretty useless and damage isn't high enough to justify to use it. Enchanted projectile reduce damage and defense but only by 1 though

Goblin Shaman: Very unpredictable and at times crazily good/annoying with the astral damage.

Fire Engineer: Good in combo with droids but low damage. More of a utility unit in support of the droid army than stand out on its own.

Witch Hunter: Good counter against any spell casting unit esp. these pesky shaman.

Still trying out the rest.

[Rhygadon]

My experience from early-game play (up to about level 12):

So far, I'm enjoying the Orc Tracker and the revised (basic) Goblins. Goblin Shaman is interesting but seems to die too easily, and I don't like that setting up the spirit link to a Goblin stack uses up an action. (For only 50% protection for a few turns, where another stack loses the HP anyway, that seems expensive.) Very nice that the basic Goblins are now officially "Archer" units!

Blood Shaman has the same problem as the original Shaman - good on paper, but often useless in an actual fight. Except even worse, because the spirit attack is weaker and the other attacks aren't often available. Plus, the Adrenaline 2 power forces a sacrifice of a Goblin Shaman, which really hurts in the early game. Late game, with bigger stacks and Adren 3 available, they might be much better.

Fire Engineer + Droids was OK, but quickly got boring. Might be interesting as a combo with Necromancers or some other fragile spellcaster unit.

Witch Hunter is intriguing, but the damage from the special anti-mage power seems fairly weak (at least in the early game; I hope it scales up with the target stack), and the base melee attack is so weak (for the Leadership cost) that even against mages it's unimpressive.

I tried Faun + Thorns for a while. The Sleep is better than you think - the key is to let it run for two turns to keep that unit out of the fight *before* you finish with the Nightmare. Still, it isn't very fun to play, and there are too many limitations (terrible basic attack, debuffs at night, plant-resurrect is zero-range). I'll try the Faun again if/when I have access to Dryads and Ents -- *that* could be fun!

The Adrenaline mechanic overall has been interesting, and certainly makes the basic fights fresh again. I do wish there was a way to see units' Adrenaline levels without right-clicking them all ...

[Zechnophobe]

Rune Mage: Requires you to keep a LOT of runes on hand to make him useful. Though, he is at least a Level 5 unit you can get automatically in the first 3 islands.

Engineer: Holy cow. He blinds, he summons droids, and repairs your other droids. With the alchemist kit he can move around for even better damage.

Faun: Resurrects thorn hunters at about 90% of an equal leadership stack. That's good enough in my book for a utility user. Sleep for two turns is a little hard to use, but good. Still, such little damage and HP... he's really just there to support.

Witch Hunter: Another great niche unit. Damaging vs caster ability not so great, but spell lock is nice at level 3, and stats are somewhat made better by auto-buff.

Orcs: Haven't used many... they are really frustrating to fight against, since it is hard to keep in your head all the random stuff they do now.

Pirate Ghosts: They seem to always find a treasure chest, not just if there aren't any. Decent, especially with stone skin, but still feel they are missing something.

[BB Shockwave]

I like the Witch Hunter. Even against non-mages, a level 3 unit with 110 HP, that's a good tank.

I'm confused by the Rune Mage's description. I just started a game today, so could not hire one yet - do his skills depend on how many Talent Runes you have alltogether, or how many unused ones you have? Because the latter seems like a waste, they are better off used on skills.

Anyway, him having a Resurrection skill that works on everyone, Level 5 included, seems really nice. Especially that the Paladin's Resurrection skill strengthens it.

Also - just like some other units in AP prior, he suffers from overlapping skill descriptions, thus "High Mage" has the "Magic Resistance"s description, and so on. THus, I don't know what the "Runic Armor" ability does. Anyone knows?

[Urbz]

I like the Witch Hunter. Even against non-mages, a level 3 unit with 110 HP, that's a good tank.

I'm confused by the Rune Mage's description. I just started a game today, so could not hire one yet - do his skills depend on how many Talent Runes you have alltogether, or how many unused ones you have? Because the latter seems like a waste, they are better off used on skills.

Anyway, him having a Resurrection skill that works on everyone, Level 5 included, seems really nice. Especially that the Paladin's Resurrection skill strengthens it.

Also - just like some other units in AP prior, he suffers from overlapping skill descriptions, thus "High Mage" has the "Magic Resistance"s description, and so on. THus, I don't know what the "Runic Armor" ability does. Anyone knows?

Runemage checks how many unused Talent Runes you have, else it would be way too powerful anyhow. This might seem like a waste but I kinda like how you have to choose, although I do not have enoughleadership to use them yet.

[BB Shockwave]

Hmm, interesting. As a Paladin, I will end up with a lot of unused Mind Runes anyway (as I get the most of those) which'd really boost resurrection. And of course, you can easily do the Phantom trick with the Rune Mage.

I'm thinking of doing an all-human army walkthrough with my Paladin - most of their units are available from the start, and frankly I never used human units much in my previous walkthrough. The line-up I am thinking is: Rune Mages, Paladins, Archmages, Horsemen, Witch Hunters (with Knights and Inquisitors in the reserve, to be used against Dragon/Undead armies instead of Paladins/Archmages). Rune Mages boost Archmage/Inquisitor attacks too. And this'd always leave me with two units that resurrect.

[Saiko Kila]

I like the Witch Hunter. Even against non-mages, a level 3 unit with 110 HP, that's a good tank.


I used him in that role too, but his defense is on weakish side, comparing to other high-HP units, so can't soak that much. But he's good as a support, and to block or terminate weaker units. His most useful skill is magic shackles, and ability to use both shackles and self-buff together with move/attack in one turn is quite good.

BTW, I have 10th level mage and still can't recruit a single runemage. They're more demanding than some dragons :(

[BB Shockwave]

I have around 620 Leadership with my Paladin on Level 3 (got Grand Strategy Medal plus took Leadership I skill), I hope I can recruit at least one soon. They are also incredibly expensive... 15.000 Gold! More then Dragons even!

BTW - One correction to note. I have been using Assassins (and they are needed, Debir is crawling with Orcs!) and found out how the "Find Weakness" ability works. Unlike the description, which says you must destroy the enemy unit, it is actually enough to just attack them with Backstab or Murder. Each time you attack an enemy type, the damage bonus goes up by 5% - and unlike Favourite Enemy, this is possible for all kind of units! My Assassins already have 10% bonuses against orcs and goblins. :) This makes taking care of them and not losing all of them all the more important.

[BB Shockwave]

Finally got enough Leadership to hire one Rune Mage. Must say... AWESOME. :)

Firstly, something I did not notice before. He has the RUNIC ability that activates only in battle - it does the following:

-Might Runes: Increases the damage (minimum and maximum) of the Rune mage by 2xNumber of Might Runes. (Basic damage is 40-55, with a maximum of 20 Runes, he does 80-95 Damage! :) )
-Mind Runes: Increases the HP of the Rune Mage by 10x Number of Mind Runes! They have a basic HP of 450, with the maximum of 20 Runes he'd have 650 HP - not that high, but high for a Mage.
-Magic Runes: Depending on the number of Magic Runes you have, the Rune Mage's basic attack can impose different negativ conditions with as 30% chance per hit. I have only got 1 Rune right now, with that, the effect is Helplessness. I wonder what will be the effect on higher levels...

As for the Talents - Destruction is a very Powerfull Astral Damage beam attack, although it hits friend and foe alike, if you position the Mage correctly (with 3 speed it is easy) you can hit multiple enemies at the same time. Resurrection is more powerfull then an Inquisitor's, and also increased by Mind Runes. Illusion is random, and the summoned unit is placed next to the Rune Mage.

I've found 4 of them so far, though it'll be long before I can recruit another one...

[Zechnophobe]

Eh. Rune Mage has some cute utility. But after a while you'll realize:

1) You'd kinda like to use those runes to get some more skills
2) With less than like 10 to 20, his abilities are simply not that great

I mean, 2k leadership is the same as a red dragon, which has 870 hit points without needs like 30 runes stored up, and can fire a line of flame that lights things on fire... and can fly far to get there.

I dropped my Rune Mages after I realized that all their stuff is really weak unless you have a LOT of runes saved up. They are also the biggest pushovers when the AI has them hehe.

[vicheron]

The Rune Mage is interesting but not powerful enough to justify storing up your runes. They should have had some other creatures that use stored runes so you could at least build an army based on it.

[ckdamascus]

It all depends on your game play though. That said, all the rune buffs are CAPPED at 20 spare runes.

Yeah, I have like 40 spare runes from every category, and the bonuses cap.

That said, the top of the line ability (20 magic runes) is.. SHEEP. Too bad it is so random, but hmmm maybe I should use phantom spam on the rune mages to increase the odds of sheeping entire armies.

So, it is not that bad to keep 20 spare runes from every category as an Impossible Mage.

That said, I might be stuck, but I think I just found a solution (phantom rune mages haha).

[edit]
actually, now that I have two rune mages, splitting them up is extremely handy since I now have a fairly good chance of sheeping whoever I target. I can't afford to phantom them yet, as the leadership is too high.

[onepiece]

@vicheronThat would be too powerful or extremely weak.

Since the purpose is creating a unit that gets stronger the more runes you have, thus getting stronger while you don't have better skills, the opposite loses the meaning of sacrificing skills for a stronger unit.
Since most people will have almost the same number of spent runes in every walkthrough (or total number of runes colected), there would be almost no difference from a few runes more or few runes less because every rune would add too little to the overall power.

Think of the Assasin abillity "find weakness" but gaining 0,5% per attack instead of 5%.

[DGDobrev]

In a way, that rune storing strategy will suit the Paladin perfectly. Fight well, lose few units, get Neatness level 3, buy all level 4-5 items and break the ones you will not use. They will yield a substantial amount of runes, which you can happily stockpile for stronger Rune Mage skills.

That's a tactic I will surely try out. A party of Paladins, Knights, Archmagi, Rune Magi and Gorguanas will be a very interesting one.

[Colbert30]

I love rune mages, they make excelent support units. Have I mentioned they can res black dragons? Yes, they can!

[KarlosCV]

Rune Mages are interesting, totally worthless for the first 3/4 of the game and absolutely wonderful for the rest. In the beginning they are just way too expensive, money and lship wise, and it's much more preferable to use your runes, not stockpile them. Later on though extra runes start to pile up and that's the time to recruit some RM. Combine them with black dragons, paladins, and two shooter units (skeleton archers and bowmen are the best IMO) and you have a dream team.

Witch Hunters can have some uses, especially around the middle of the game and only because of their magic shackles ability that don't have the the lship limit (unlike your spell). Later on I had so much initiative that I didn't bother with any shackling. It was much simpler just to pound everything to the ground in the first round with my skeleton archers, bowmen and black dragons (actually that's maybe the biggest drawback of both KB games - the last third of the game is way too easy, there's no need of any finessess and elaborate strategies anymore and most battles are basically over in the first two rounds).

I didn't use orcs, again, mainly because they don't have any decent ranger units (severe distance penalty) and also it takes time for them to accumulate enough adrenaline and start to deliver some real damage. But I can be wrong, since I didn't have the patience to test them thoroughly. But they sure can be tough enemies. It still seems to me, even with the addon, that they're frustrating to play with AND to play against.

Faun is actually a very useful support unit, they finally make royal thorns reasonably useful.

All in all, it's a good addon, although humans still seem overpowered and too bad the devs haven't made other races, especially lizards and demons, a bit more useful. Anyway, thumbs up for Katauri, hope Crossworlds will sell well and cannot wait to play KB2 :))

[ckdamascus]

Curious, do you play in impossible mode and what class do you play?

Bowmen and skeleton archers both suffer from range penalties, just like orcs, but I agree they have great potential for serious damage. Or is the orc range penalty even shorter than the bowmen an skeleton archers?

I figured early game the rune mages can revive the cyclops, which is really handy since you get those guys on bolo.

I didn't realize they could do this, bleh. Actually it has been a while, I wonder if inquisitors can also raise cyclops too? Hmm.

I'm assuming you were a warrior class since you mentioned high initiative.

I'm trying to make the orc dream team work with a paladin right now. wish me luck.

I do miss insane ranged units.

[Metathron]

I figured early game the rune mages can revive the cyclops, which is really handy since you get those guys on bolo.

I didn't realize they could do this, bleh. Actually it has been a while, I wonder if inquisitors can also raise cyclops too? Hmm.

Huh? That's not true, unfortunately, only time back works on them.

[ckdamascus]

Huh? That's not true, unfortunately, only time back works on them.

Rune Mages can revive black dragons (the hardest unit to revive), are you sure they can't revive cyclops?

[onepiece]

Could be since the stone ability of the Cyclops says they are immune to spells of healing and resurrection.
Need to check that (first need to find some cyclops XD)

[ckdamascus]

Could be since the stone ability of the Cyclops says they are immune to spells of healing and resurrection.
Need to check that (first need to find some cyclops XD)

You guys are right.

Cannot revive!

Cyclops takes the number one spot for hardest to revive unit. :)

[Metathron]

Rune Mages can revive black dragons (the hardest unit to revive), are you sure they can't revive cyclops?

Well I've just played a huge chunk of the game with black, red and green dragons, archmages and cyclops and I had to take extra care with cyclops because the enemy kept attacking them (like they know I can't resurrect them!), so I had to protect them using stuff like glot's armor as revive does not work on them.

[rollems]

So i have been doing this and seems work great...
Black dragons , Rune Mage (keep magic rune to revive BD) , and Inquisitors (extra moral) .... my blackies alone with Rune heal dish out all the enemies :D

[Seraph]

You guys are right.

Cannot revive!

Cyclops takes the number one spot for hardest to revive unit. :)

While it's true that rune mages can't revive cyclops, demonologists can. Unfortunately, the amount of lost troops that they replace isn't nearly as impressive as the resurrecting ability of rune mages or pallies, but they're handy to replace any unliving units in your army.

The most recent mage game I was playing, I ran for a decent while with rune mages, necromancers, demonologists, black dragons and cyclops. The demonologists were handy for cutting down losses among the cyclops and necromancers, but were really only really effective when my losses weren't that bad. They're not going to help you if you've lost half a stack of something like fauns or repair droids can with plants and droids respectively.

I'm still relatively new to KBAP and haven't tackled the hardest difficulty levels yet, so I have no idea how valid of a strategy backing up your cylops with demonologists is likely to be. Might be worth taking a look at if, like me, you find both units well before you come across a Time Back scroll.

[Metathron]

Demonologists can bring back cyclops? Never tried that, cool!

[ckdamascus]

I think I knew that already? I dont' remember haha.

Yes, I have used demonologists to great effect in my Mage build. I used them to help keep my archdemon number high. For severe losses, the rune mage was the big resurrector.

Phantom demonologists so they can summon for mega meat shields (hello summoner level 3 and hello archmage level 3 skill), and before the phantom demonologists disappear, resurrect a few archdemons while dealing damage. :)

It is nifty since it also does a fair amount of damage too.

Warriors get so much more leadership though, so I wonder how that would fly instead of using a mage.

[XG_Man]

Comment on pirate ghosts. Currently playing impossible paladin and having these guys is a blast. They rule naval battles since they gain independent morale bonuses from a companion and from the fight itself. Because of their high physical resist [50% as phantom] and magic damage I find that orcs, lizards and dwarfs simply get torn apart by these sea devils. ATM criticals vs their preferred enemy does 29-30k dmg, so robbing these guys [pirates, swordsmen and guardsmen] and gremlin towers is quite lucrative. Otherwise, inflicting astral damage against a line of orcs and lizards is such fun. Especially vs those damned shamans.

Right now I setup with Jimmy Kraud as companion, Jackboots [+1 speed, all +pirate items work on them], max physical resist from items, max power of darkness, tactics and adrenaline for speed 5 and init 6- usually can reach the enemy line in the first turn. After that I smash/rob, soak the retaliation then timeback/eviln. Rinse and repeat till sick. Another plus, having a max of 8 treasure chests to collect [3 from dragon as basic, 2 in the field random, +1 from the shovel and +1 from the pirate] at times. The game can be rolling in cash.

The downside, fire/magic/holy damage is a pain. Their special attack can be really weak or terminally insane. Heavily item dependent to excel and most other units take a morale hit from them. Don't do so well vs bosses [Zilgadis kills them in droves]. The verdict, can be used as a poor man's black knight or a rich man's raider.

[ckdamascus]

Comment on pirate ghosts. Currently playing impossible paladin and having these guys is a blast. They rule naval battles since they gain independent morale bonuses from a companion and from the fight itself. Because of their high physical resist [50% as phantom] and magic damage I find that orcs, lizards and dwarfs simply get torn apart by these sea devils. ATM criticals vs their preferred enemy does 29-30k dmg, so robbing these guys [pirates, swordsmen and guardsmen] and gremlin towers is quite lucrative. Otherwise, inflicting astral damage against a line of orcs and lizards is such fun. Especially vs those damned shamans.

Right now I setup with Jimmy Kraud as companion, Jackboots [+1 speed, all +pirate items work on them], max physical resist from items, max power of darkness, tactics and adrenaline for speed 5 and init 6- usually can reach the enemy line in the first turn. After that I smash/rob, soak the retaliation then timeback/eviln. Rinse and repeat till sick. Another plus, having a max of 8 treasure chests to collect [3 from dragon as basic, 2 in the field random, +1 from the shovel and +1 from the pirate] at times. The game can be rolling in cash.

The downside, fire/magic/holy damage is a pain. Their special attack can be really weak or terminally insane. Heavily item dependent to excel and most other units take a morale hit from them. Don't do so well vs bosses [Zilgadis kills them in droves]. The verdict, can be used as a poor man's black knight or a rich man's raider.

Wow, I always wrote them off as a novelty, but sounds like you got a pretty killer combo there.

Maybe I should try them out with the new Red Sands mod... Asmodeus can resurrect them if you can find bodies to feed....