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Gilly
09-10-2010, 08:12 AM
The RAF Bomber Command Memorial will finally pay a public debt of gratitude to the 55,573 aircrew who bravely took to the skies in World War II to defend us against the oppression of the Nazis – and never came back.
With support from the Heritage Foundation,the RAF Bomber Command Association is building a memorial in Green Park, central London to honour those who sacrificed everything so that we may be free today.
Planning permission was granted by Westminster City Council in May 2010 but we need funds NOW so that construction can begin while there are still some veterans of RAF Bomber Command alive to witness it.
As most of the veterans are well into their 80s and 90s, time is of the essence for the men and women who flew with and supported RAF Bomber Command in WWII. Sadly, more than 70 of them are passing away every month.
And we're against the clock in terms of getting the memorial itself built. We are required to have a further £1.9m in place by the end of October 2010 in order to meet building and planning regulations, and to meet the deadline of unveiling the memorial in 2011.
Aircrews within RAF Bomber Command were all volunteers with an average age of just 19. The majority of these 125,000 volunteers came from the United Kingdom, but young men also came from all corners of the Commonwealth and Allied countries.
Day after day they bravely took to the skies to not only defend us when all looked lost, but to finally turn the course of World War II. They did this knowing that many of them would never come back
Until now, the collective role of RAF Bomber Command in freeing Europe from Hitler’s tyrannical rule has never been publicly recognised. Apart from defending the United Kingdom against German aerial attacks, they took the war to Germany - disrupting the industrial production of weapons and carrying out daylight raids against shipping targets.
However, RAF Bomber Command also dropped 6,680 tonnes of food into the Netherlands to help the Dutch population who were suffering from famine and starvation. They were also responsible for humanitarian missions to drop life saving aid to civilians and resistance forces in occupied territories.
Bomber Command suffered the greatest percentage of casualties, accounting for 10% of all fatalities in WWII.
The RAF Bomber Command Memorial will serve as a reminder of the lives that were lost, and as a place for family members to remember loved ones, some of whom have never had a formal place of rest.
Robin Gibb, President of the Heritage Foundation has been campaigning for Bomber Command for the last few years. It has been a childhood dream of Robin’s to one day create a memorial to the sacrifice of RAF Bomber Command and the role it played in securing freedom on a national, European and international basis.

Taken from the website www.bombercommand.com

But.....

Taken from The Daily Mail- 7th September 2010

Politicians have called on Britain to abandon plans to build a memorial to RAF bomber crews.
Backed by Bild, their country's biggest daily newspaper, they said the idea was offensive to the 25,000 victims of the raid on Dresden in 1945.
'This memorial injures the feelings of Dresdeners and is utterly tasteless,' said Holger Zastrow, a Liberal party councillor in the city.
She is visiting the capital to open an exhibition detailing the bombing of London, her city and that of its twin, Coventry.
Bild ran a story yesterday with the English headline 'Please say NO,' adding: 'Today the mayoress has her chance to tell her official colleagues in Britain that she, like the queen, is not amused. Dresden has every reason not to be.
'This is a good opportunity for Orosz to express to her London colleagues the opinions of Dresdeners about the bomber monument.'
Over two days and nights in February 1945 British and American bombers turned the city into a sea of flames and rubble.
The victims - mostly women and children - died in savage firestorms whipped up by the intense heat of 2,400 tons of high explosive and 1,500 tons of incendiary bombs.

The raid was controversial because it came near the end of the war.
There is also debate about the value of Dresden as a military target.
The controversy was stoked in the early years by claims that up to 250,000 civilians had been killed.

But an official report published this year after five years of research by German historians concluded that the casualty figure was 25,000.

Ursula Elsner, 80, was a child when the bombers destroyed Dresden. She said: 'We rely on our mayor to use the strongest diplomatic language possible to express our strong concerns about this monument.'
Now writing a book of eyewitness accounts to the raids, she added: 'I find these plans both sad and macabre.
'Such a monument justifies the bombing attacks and damages the mutual reconciliation process of the past few years between Britain and Germany.'

The £3.5million RAF memorial is for the Piccadilly entrance to Green Park in London. Planners at Westminster City Council approved the proposal in May.
Bee Gees singer Robin Gibb, a key supporter, has said: 'Anyone speaking against it should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.
'The whole world, including Germany, is free today because of Bomber Command's sacrifice.'

Built from Portlandstone, it will be open to the sky with the entrance made from sections of a Halifax bomber shot down during the war. A sculpture inside marks the loss of the plane's seven crew

dkwookie
09-10-2010, 08:49 AM
It always saddened me when those news reports of the vandalism to bomber Harris's monument came out. I would hate same to happen to this one. They better keep it well secured.

I think the protests against it are Political Correctness waffle. All areas of the forces that took part should be remembered.

FOZ_1983
09-10-2010, 10:42 AM
I've signed petitions and all sorts to try and get bomber command recognised!! It disgusts me that they didnt even get a campaign medal like everyone else :(

A couple of years ago though i did get to go to lincoln cathederal with my grandad (bomber command veteran) to see a memorial laid for the veterans of bomber command, followed by a fly over from the mighty Lanc.

Its shocking that they are not respected or given a medal for doing what they did. Yes they bombed Dresden...but they were ordered. The Germans still had night fighters, still has flak guns. And Drseden aside, what about other places they bombed? Ball bearing factories, the dams, the tirpitz, tank factories... places that would of caused considerable damge to us if they were left standing.

2

FOZ_1983
09-10-2010, 10:44 AM
I've signed petitions and all sorts to try and get bomber command recognised!! It disgusts me that they didnt even get a campaign medal like everyone else :(

A couple of years ago though i did get to go to lincoln cathederal with my grandad (bomber command veteran) to see a memorial laid for the veterans of bomber command, followed by a fly over from the mighty Lanc.

Its shocking that they are not respected or given a medal for doing what they did. Yes they bombed Dresden...but they were ordered. The Germans still had night fighters, still has flak guns. And Drseden aside, what about other places they bombed? Ball bearing factories, the dams, the tirpitz, tank factories... places that would of caused considerable damage to us if they were left standing.

And lets remember that not every member of Bomber Command attacked Dresden. My grandad.. never went near the place.

2 tours as an air gunner, yet not even a simple medal to saythankyou, or a memorial in the capital to respect the 55,000 that didnt come home.

dkwookie
09-10-2010, 11:06 AM
I don't even think we need to make excuses for the lads who attacked Dresden. I don't want to make inflammatory comments but if you start a fight you need to accept you may get a good kicking in return

flynlion
09-10-2010, 12:22 PM
2 tours as an air gunner, yet not even a simple medal to saythankyou, or a memorial in the capital to respect the 55,000 that didnt come home.

I'll say it Foz. THANK YOU.

McQ59
09-10-2010, 01:23 PM
What a shame they didn't get the honour they rightly deserves. I didn't know...
(It kind of reminds me of the treatment the norwegian sailors got. They sailed the convoys for six years not seeing theire loved ones, got torpedoed and molested, allmost no wages - and no pensions after the war. Not even a simple thank you for bringing oil, fuel, guns and soldiers to the battlefields. The norwegian government cheated and treated them real badly).

jack42
09-10-2010, 03:56 PM
I don't even think we need to make excuses for the lads who attacked Dresden. I don't want to make inflammatory comments but if you start a fight you need to accept you may get a good kicking in return

i believe dresden was famous for porcelain pottery, at the time used not only for dinner services.think non conductive material i.e. any electrical circuit in planes,tanks,ships,gun emplacements ect.

other uses in armaments ,shell fuses,mines (non metalic cant find em!),radio parts. if i thought about it sure i could think of more well two more actually.

1der feurer's khazi!

2 tiles you know the ones like you put in a shower!!!

the mayoress of dresden just another politician ,trying to stay in power but i suspect the monument will be there longer than her grasp of reality!

donate now you know the aircrew deserve a monument

yes wookie i agree sometimes you have to give someone a "reight good kicking" its the only way they'll learn!:wink:;)

bobbysocks
09-11-2010, 10:34 PM
dresden will always be a topic of controversy much like hiroshima. people have opinions and like sports or religion you are not going to sway them from their point of view. when i was going through my father's papers i ran into this article about it. i can not vouch for the "correctness" of the information but think it would be pretty close...but anyways here it is in it entirety:

editorial by walter brown md - excepts of the article.

the dresdeners

every year just before valentine's day there are stories published about the bombing of dresden germany on feb 13-14, 1945. the articles written by revisionists accuse the united states and great britian of firebombing unnecessarily. television and radio carried reports of similar themes. the media once again did not have the moral or ethical sensibilities to look for the facts concerning the dresden raid and present them accurately.

the time was early 1945. russian troops were advancing on germany from the east at a rapid clip. our ground troops had finally won the batle of the bulge and were heading for germany from the west. the nazis had pulled many of their troops and most of their war equipment back from the russian front and purposely amassed them in the marshaling yards in dresden. those weapons were to be thrown up against the american soldiers in attempts to slow forward progress across germany towards berlin. the german leaders apparently thought we would not bomb dresden-that their valuable guns and vehicles would be safe. they were warned by the allies in advance to move the equipment into the city or expect the worst. days before the bombing, leaflets were dropped on the city advising the citizens of the situation. the germans continued to move equipment into the city.

the night of february 13, the raf area bombed the city in night raids just as they had been doing in their attacks on german industrial cities for previous years of the war. the following day 461 b-17s of the first air division precision bombed the marshaling yards with good results. general lew lyle, flying lead aircraft, attests to the target for the day and the military reasons for the raid on dresden. the target was the marshaling yards in dresden. john greenwood, president of the 8th afmmf, flying as lead navigator gives a detailed account of the mission. his story was recently written up in the new york times. most telling, however, is the evidence of harry gobrecht who flew the mission with the 303rd bomb group and is their official historian. harry has done extensive research into all the missions the 303rd flew and has found classified mission reports on the dresden raid. these secret documents leave no doubt as to the purpose of the mission to dresden.

questions asked as to why dresden was bombed so close to the end of the war are senseless as those journalists who write according to their own aganda and for reasons other than historical accuracy. no one knew at the time that the war would end three months later. the german army was still fighting and the allied soldiers were being killed.

the 8th air force ( and all allies ) was still losing fighters and bombers every day. perhaps the dresden raid was instrumental, as most bombing raids were, in saving allied lives and hastening the surrender of the nazi regime. perhaps the "political revisionists" should consider the facts of the war as they existed at the time. and perhaps they should consider what the alternative outcomes of the war would have been.

peter f. ardizzi, editor
"keystone tale winds"
p,o, box 102
warminster, pa 18974-0511

(*** i do not know how old this article is or if the publication is still in existance. but it does site names and references for research if you are so inclined to dig deeper)

FOZ_1983
09-12-2010, 01:34 PM
To be fair, its war!! These things happen. You bomb us, we take bigger bombers and bomb you.

Its highly unlikey that bomber command just picked dresden at random and said "lets bomb here"

Theirs always a target to go for, and all the armour and troops etc were a valid one. No matter what, your always gonig to have some casualites that were unintended.

Dresden is always brought up, and bomber command is shamed. They never seem to remember all the good things they did though....... dropping food supplies to the dutch, weapons to the partisans etc.

scottyvt4
09-14-2010, 08:28 PM
watched a cracking documentury(sp) about the wellington tonight on BBC three/four about the 24hr build they done at the brooklands factory, propaganda at its best but how light and easily put together was just staggering ............

some of the facts and figures

linkage - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-11107561

bomber command stats was on an airmans tour of 30 the death rate was 1 in 20, according to the program in bomber command you had more of a chance of dieing than completeing a tour..........


least we forget..........

BRIGGBOY
09-15-2010, 10:13 PM
nice one scotty i didnt even see it advitised

scottyvt4
09-16-2010, 09:00 PM
Thanks Brigg ................ i didnt even see it i just happen to stumble on to it lol



iplayer FTW for a full view :)

bobbysocks
09-28-2010, 11:16 PM
just ran across these.

http://www.rafbombercommand.com/master_welcome.html

http://www.rafbombercommand.com/memorialfund/

http://www.lancaster-archive.com/bc_main_page.htm