Wich joystick to buy?

[Armatian]

I need help to select a good joystick, a couple of facts:
-I need the best posible stick for the money, don't mind buttons, looks, i want reliable pots
-Can't buy hi-end, i'm from south america so prices are 4x
-My utterly first priority is smooth, precise x,y axis, a throttle would be nice, but i can manage to mod cheap joysticks to do that job. I've already had made pedals.
-Twist rudder not desired.
-If i could buy core logics and pots, happily would make my own, but i don't know how, that's even more difficult here.
-I almost buy saitek aviator, logitech pro, even cyborg, but reviews made me reconsider.

Is there any choices?, or i would need to save for years to buy hi end, like i did to finally buy my logitech g25?

[nearmiss]

What are you expecting to pay... say in dollars?

This will focus better answers for you

[Armatian]

I can stretch from 75 to upward 100 if it's worth it, but 200 is definitely too much.
But as i said, if to get rid of unprecision, twitchy response, and weared pots after a couple of weeks, i need to do extra effort, but it take me a lot of time.

[swiss]

You do need: hotas

you don't really need: FF

(Well both would rock, but that would be the logi 940)

Top of my mind:

- X52 (don't go pro, it's the same stick)[there's a poti mod for the x52 which eliminates the dead zone]
- Cougar (used)

[Bearcat]

I'd recommend either an X-52 Pro (http://www.saitek.com/fr/prod/x52pro.htm) or a CH (http://www.chproducts.com/retail/index.html)setup.. Both are good... the X-52 is good in itself.. but the Pro is beefier, at least thats my understanding.. but either is good.. CH makes great stuff as well.. Many think it is far superior to the Saitek stuff.. I personally think you get more bang for the buck with Saitek.. Shop around though.. dont get either at the manufacturer's site.. You can find both cheaper elsewhere but you can get the specs on them on their sites.. The Saitek uses Hall Effect sensors as opposed to potentiometers.. I wouldn't bother with a Cougar... Great sticks if you have money to burn.. but...

[WTE_Galway]

Actually I would choose a good FFB stick over a Hotas as FFB really helps you on the edge of stall but that's just a personal preference.

Unfortunately their are no really good FFB sticks around anymore. The FFB stick to beat all FFB sticks was the MSFFB2 but they are hard to come by new and also I have heard they are hard to setup with win7 especially 64 bit.

[nearmiss]

The MSFT Sidewinder Forcefeedback 2 is an excellent stick.
It has a twist handle for rudder as well.
You can probably find a good used one pretty reasonable.
MSFT no longer produces it, but it is still a top choice, even used.

The CH Products are excellent, but the hotas package is expensive
Pedals $100 or more, Flighterstick $150 or more, Throttle $100 or more.
You have to have pedals with Fighterstick, because there is not twist handle rudder.

The Saitek Aviator is a nice stick with twist handle that isn't too back, not sure who makes it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCPyNmpRkj4

[albx]

i'm just using this http://www.thrustmaster.com/files.aspx?ProductID=155&Images=1

it's precise and cheap..

[Chivas]

The only cheaper stick I've had is the Saitek Aviator which worked well, but I didn't have it long enough to see if it stood the test of time. I've also had all the high end CH, Logitech, and Saitek HOTAS, but they all have flaws of some sort. Although the latest Logitech drivers have greatly improved their product.

Your best bet is still the MSFF2 joystick which can still be bought on ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.ca/MICROSOFT-SIDEWINDER-FORCE-FEEDBACK-2-USB-JOYSTICK-/270618590239?pt=PCA_Joysticks_Game_Controllers

[FAE_Cazador]

If you can, before buying, go to a department store or shop and grab the joystick with your hands, feel the grip and see how it accomodates to you. Some Joysticks are too big for people having small hands. In such case , not all buttons can be reached easily, forcing you to change the position of your hand in critical moments.

Cougar and CH joysticks are IMHO for big hands. In Saitek's X52 and Cyborg Evo series you can adjust the position of the rest for your hand so it's suitable for the smallers.

And in case you were left-handed, X-52 is the better choice as you can adapt it to your right or your left.

[TheGrunch]

I have the original PC Saitek Aviator, and I love it, feel-wise it's an excellent stick, but....after only 2 weeks the auto-calibration feature on mine went really dodgy and the second throttle is now all but useless, since during flight it can do anything from just wandering between about +-10% throttle setting to losing half of the range of the axis, so it's calibrated so that the middle of the axis is at the bottom of the throw and the end of the axis is at the bottom of the throw. If I'd had it set to elevator trim I could only trim down once it went crazy. And there seems to be no way to fix the problem bar deleting a certain registry key and restarting the computer.

Saitek's tech support are now unbelievably appalling. Time was I'd have been shocked to hear someone say that, but now they've been bought out by Mad Catz they really are awful. I am IP banned from the Saitek forum, apparently. Funny that, since it told me that as I was trying to register my first ever account on there to ask for help with the Aviator. Perhaps that's how they keep the numbers down in the tech support forum. Pre-banning.

I was lucky, though, other people have had the same problems on more than one axis, including the main X and Y axes.

I was a bit concerned that the same problems were spreading to the main throttle, which would have made the whole stick useless to me, but the worst that has happened with the main throttle is the aforementioned +-10% wandering.

In the end the best solution was simply not to install the Saitek software (used JoyToKey instead for view hat mouse emulation, since that was all I used the Saitek software for anyway), since the software was what seemed to be causing the majority of the trouble (the trouble seems to come on from task-switching during play...or just completely randomly, take your pick). I'm not sure that the problem's been eliminated, though, since I haven't really flown since I uninstalled the Saitek software ages ago. It seems like the problems take a while to set in after you make a change like changing the USB port that you use, or something like that.

Another complaint is that the spring-loaded button to connect the two throttles together is really cheaply and badly made and after flying a twin about a month after buying the damn thing, mine is now stuck tied together and won't come unstuck no matter what I do from standard pushing it in up to much more delicate or much more violent means...possibly I'll have to saw the little dowel that connects from the first to the second throttle in half.

Finally, the hand rest for the stick was also really tacky, and I couldn't get the cheap screws to go into the hand rest the whole way, so it was never on tightly and it just sat there and rattled aggravatingly until I took it off.

Those are the BAD things. But, the stick itself is very nice to use. I'm probably going to replace the board that came with it with one of Leo Bodnar's boards because they're so much more reliable. What's the NEED for an auto-calibration function, especially one so useless and glitchy? It's a good job I bought the stick with the Bodnar board in mind (along with extending it with a length of PVC piping to see what a longer-throw stick is like).

To be honest, if you're not bothered with FFB or a throttle and you really need reliability, I'd go with the CH Combat Stick, since it's about the same price as the X-52 the others have been suggesting but is far more reliably made. For a cheaper and equally reliable option, you can really only buy a controller board (Leo Bodnar's BU0836 are the best option according to most) and make a stick yourself. Here is a good thread for you made by a bloke in a similar situation. (http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2930867/D_I_Y_HOTAS.html#Post2930867)

[janpitor]

I would suggest Logitech extreme 3D PRO. I have it probably about 7 or more years..i dont remember precisely, and it is very precise. No bumps, but last year i had to put a little bit of harder paper between the sensor and body of joystick to eliminate a little bit bigger center zone with no force.

The other possibility is FFB version of this joy, which my mate owns, but he has it for a short time, so i cant speak about reliability.

[Armatian]

Thanks a lot, very helpful input. I'm trying to locate thrustmaster and ch distribution in my lame part of the world.
I will avoid saitek low end for now, as i said, i only enjoy driving now that i have logitech g25, it's just that costs so damn much here, i needed to save for 18 months -_-
But considering i enjoy just driving, or just flying, checking dials, manual mixture and propeller rpm, i think that serious products or diy is my way to go.
Finally i relocated bodnar work, thanks for the links people, i wish i had credit card, i'm doing ptc to have some paypal money now D=

PD: FF it's really not a go, i fly occasionally with my father and can assure that feedback is in your butt, not in the stick, unlike driving that is 50-60% wheel feedback.

[BadAim]

PD: FF it's really not a go, i fly occasionally with my father and can assure that feedback is in your butt, not in the stick, unlike driving that is 50-60% wheel feedback.

LOL, perhaps a buttkicker combined with FFB? On the serious side, it's a damn shame that Saitek's QC is so spotty, because they have some really nice stuff. My first x52 lasted for 3-4 years of hard flying, the second; barely six months. For me it's not so bad, since they're fairly cheap here and I have the resources to replace them. For that reason I can't recommend Saitek for you and I have little experience with other stuff.

[albx]

I also had an Aviator, and as TheGrunch said I also had calibration and centering problems. Than i bought the thrustmaster Flight Hotas-x and it is awesome. The throttle can be detached, it's very ergonomic and more precise than the Saitek Aviator.

[swiss]

Unfortunately their are no really good FFB sticks around anymore. The FFB stick to beat all FFB sticks was the MSFFB2 but they are hard to come by new and also I have heard they are hard to setup with win7 especially 64 bit.

:confused:
There are:
http://www.logitech.com/assets/17262/17262.png
http://www.logitech.com/en-us/gaming/joysticks/devices/5855

but the Pro is beefier, at least thats my understanding

The Pro uses the same hardware.
Differences are:

- 2nd spring
- some alloy trimm knobs instead of plastic
- different MFD(which nobody needs)

that's it.
Safe the money for pedals.

[MikkOwl]

I have a Logitech Extreme 3D PRO also. It works 'okay'. Has a nasty twist-stick which works very badly and feels loose and nasty, which I wish could be locked somehow. Accuracy is not great either but with curves it is not a big concern. Has a throttle flap for the left hand which works very well if on a desk. The ergonomics are excellent; superbly comfortable to use. Great for the non-hardcore or poorer flight simmer. Something to give to a friend so they can get introduced to something like IL-2 without hassle.

I have a G940 also. It has a lot of good things about it but has some really really nasty driver problems that are infuriating. Especially the 'reversal bug' - has been in existance for a whole year yet Logitech has not yet fixed it. The force feedback is great and apart from the bug, the stick feels like a very solid, high quality item with no flex or twist. Comes with Throttle and Pedals (both severely affected by the reversal bug as of yet). The cost is far too high for the original poster however so just mention it for comparison. I would not recommend it to anyone unless the reversal bug is fixed.

My recommendation judging by what the poster asked for would be one of those CH sticks. Accurate, durable workhorses.

Force feedback - For sure the G-forces in the whole body are much, much more noticeable than the changing forces in the control stick. But never the less, the real controls, especially in something like a Bf 109 with a single grip stick and very cramped cabin, do change with speed. From very loose to extremely tight. There's also other forces such as vibrations, uneven airflow over wings when near stall or with gears down etc. In reality the whole body is also thrown around along with the vibrations/movements felt in the stick. Force feedback moving the stick around at the right frequency can help simulate the effect of having the real body/arm thrown around.

Having no real G-forces to deal with at all, the feeling from force feedback in IL-2 adds a lot for me. Super cool. Downsides is noise, cost, heat, electricity, cabling and the movement/resistance feels more notchy the more resistance there is.

[Untamo]

Hi.

Do you have (some) spare time? If you do, make your own joystick!

My squadmate is currently working on his own stick.. I have made my own rudder pedals and thinking of making a stick too when the TM Cougar dies. Probably going to recycle lots of parts from it.

It really isn't that hard, especially with things like the Bodnar chip (courtesy of Leo Bodnar http://www.leobodnar.com/). There's lot's of info and projects about this stuff available with instructions to make your own.

And the main seller is the price. You can make a really good system with less than 50 euros. Assuming you have the tools :) .. For example the parts for my rudder pedals totaled under 20 euros.


-Untamo

[Armatian]

Ah of course, i forgot hi performance planes, wich of course i haven't flown.
I remember japan ace, saburo sakai noting that rookie kamikazes shouldn't have done dives, because at high speed with big control surfaces, zero's stick became like a rock and they used to water crash low unable to lift.
So FF still not a priority for me, but you have made a good point.

PD: wow that logitech looks beatiful, maybe i'll be tempted to sell a kidney.

[swiss]

Than i bought the thrustmaster Flight Hotas-x and it is awesome. The throttle can be detached, it's very ergonomic and more precise than the Saitek Aviator.

I had this stick for 48hrs - and returned it.

The stick itself is pretty well made, unfortunately it lacks some buttons.
Worst part: the resistance of the stick is not linear to it's movement range - it increases somewhere at 75% and decreases at 8x%.

The throttle is just cheap, the friction is a joke, and the rocker switch is of no use at all since it's an axis.

No mapping software either.

Conclusion: It's cheap, but it's a crappy hotas too.
Go and buy a better "not hotas" stick for the money, or if you want hotas: spend more.


and more precise

Didn't feel very precise, however I can only compare it to the x52.

[swiss]

Hi.
I have made my own rudder pedals

got pics?

[albx]

I had this stick for 48hrs - and returned it.

The stick itself is pretty well made, unfortunately it lacks some buttons.
Worst part: the resistance of the stick is not linear to it's movement range - it increases somewhere at 75% and decreases at 8x%.

The throttle is just cheap, the friction is a joke, and the rocker switch is of no use at all since it's an axis.

No mapping software either.

Conclusion: It's cheap, but it's a crappy hotas too.
Go and buy a better "not hotas" stick for the money, or if you want hotas: spend more.




Didn't feel very precise, however I can only compare it to the x52.

my comparision was with the Saitek aviator not with the x-52. The X-52 price is about the double of what i paid for the thrustmaster, and it is just good for my use... I paid mine about 40 euro, the X-52 is about 100 euro and more

[Sokol1]

-If i could buy core logics and pots, happily would make my own, but i don't know how, that's even more difficult here.

You can. Use USB card like Leo Bodnar Bu0836 (8 axis, 32 buttons, HAT), or D.I.Y. Mjoy8/16 to eletronics (6/8 axis, 24/112 buttons, HAT) or similar cards, and automotive U-Joint for gimbal, and cheap HALL Sensor like Allegro A1321-EUAT instead pots.

http://www.jpfiles.com/hardware/uni_stick.pdf

Sokol1

[TheGrunch]

I have a G940 also. It has a lot of good things about it but has some really really nasty driver problems that are infuriating.
:eek: Are the new drivers still not out, MikkOwl?

[Untamo]

got pics?


http://i37.tinypic.com/znpsv8.jpg

and the Hall sensor assembly (image taken when the neodymium magnet was still attached with blue tack :) .. well it still is, but it's hardened in place with epoxy)

http://i38.tinypic.com/2119u75.jpg

Version one of the pedals, plan to someday make new ones with toe brakes. From metal if possible.. but wood seems to be durable enough :)


-Untamo

[Armatian]

You can. Use USB card like Leo Bodnar Bu0836 (8 axis, 32 buttons, HAT), or D.I.Y. Mjoy8/16 to eletronics (6/8 axis, 24/112 buttons, HAT) or similar cards, and automotive U-Joint for gimbal, and cheap HALL Sensor like Allegro A1321-EUAT instead pots.

http://www.jpfiles.com/hardware/uni_stick.pdf

Sokol1
Very much appreciated, that was the part i was missing, the only way to long lasting is through non-contact, like optical or this way.
Are those hall sensors precise and progressive enough?

[MikkOwl]

:eek: Are the new drivers still not out, MikkOwl?

They came out in May I think, but they did not contain anything relating to the reversal bug. They were a temporary hotfix. The intent was to go straight for a major upgrade for the profiler software and other stuff but the customer complains warranted this diversion. I am still dissappointed about the reversal bug being there. Only thing I heard some month or two ago was that it shouldn't be too much longer for the major release. Surely they would not overlook the same issue..again? :evil:

-----

Building one's own stuff is fun. Or rather designing stuff is fun but building sucks. Takes so much time and is noisy, smelly and too much to go wrong. :)

When thinking about the cost of things (for example, more expensive controllers compared to cheaper do-it-yourself project) it is not just about money.

Imagine that building it will take perhaps 15-40 hours of work (not just assembly but finding the parts, getting the parts, studying guides on how to build, then building, then testing, then arranging/moving stuff around the room to make things fit out of the way, setting up/tuning, practical bla bla).

With all this work spent, would it have been possible to work overtime at the workplace instead to afford the more expensive system? Or work extra somewhere?

Because if you work 10 hours extra and get a nice working control system with the money, it is much less work, and probably more reliable and much more practical, than paying a bit less money and doing the big project.

Just some considerations. Depends what is possible and what is more desirable.

[TheGrunch]

They came out in May I think, but they did not contain anything relating to the reversal bug. They were a temporary hotfix. The intent was to go straight for a major upgrade for the profiler software and other stuff but the customer complains warranted this diversion. I am still dissappointed about the reversal bug being there. Only thing I heard some month or two ago was that it shouldn't be too much longer for the major release. Surely they would not overlook the same issue..again? :evil:

Unbelievable. :confused: The most worrying things are that looking on their forum, they don't seem to have acknowledged that the reversal bug either exists or is on their priority list to be fixed. Also, the fact that they've destroyed the FFB implementation in Il-2 in the latest firmware is worrying. I really want to get an FFB stick at some point, but this is just putting me off so badly. I wonder whether Maddox Games have been given a G940 to work with to make it compatible with SoW? If it's dodgy with SoW there's no chance I'll ever buy one.

[Untamo]

@ MikkOwl:

True true for the consumed time vs. buying -issue :) .. I just happen to like building stuff :) ... Atleast the electronic bits are nice.. the other stuff not so nice. I suck at carpentry ;)

-Untamo

[Bloblast]

Unfortunately their are no really good FFB sticks around anymore. The FFB stick to beat all FFB sticks was the MSFFB2 but they are hard to come by new and also I have heard they are hard to setup with win7 especially 64 bit.


Yep the MS FFB2 was big but good, but do not work with Windows Vista nor 7.

Currently I use Logitech Force 3d Pro which is good as well smaller and therefore user friendlier.

[mazex]

Yep the MS FFB2 was big but good, but do not work with Windows Vista nor 7.

Currently I use Logitech Force 3d Pro which is good as well smaller and therefore user friendlier.

Well, my MSFFB2 worked just fine in Windows 7 64 bit Ultimate. Don't know about Vista as I never touched it even with a stick... It's now retired and replaced by a G940 - and no, I will never sell it :) The G940 may break down some day...

[Bloblast]

Well, my MSFFB2 worked just fine in Windows 7 64 bit Ultimate. Don't know about Vista as I never touched it even with a stick... It's now retired and replaced by a G940 - and no, I will never sell it :) The G940 may break down some day...

I did not work with Vista I find out. There was no dynamic in the force any more.
I did not try it with Windows 7, do they have new driver for it?

[Qpassa]

MikkOwl : Believe or not but you represent a lot of us in Logitech Forums!

[WTE_Galway]

Well, my MSFFB2 worked just fine in Windows 7 64 bit Ultimate. Don't know about Vista as I never touched it even with a stick... It's now retired and replaced by a G940 - and no, I will never sell it :) The G940 may break down some day...

Yeah I have looked at the G940, it seems it gets the occasional bad user review for quality (I think some sticks must be turning up broken) but overall people seem impressed, it looks like a good stick.

If the matching rudders had been FFB I would probably trade in my FFB2 and CH pro pedals.

[zakkandrachoff]

first, get the sim
them, mi priority is get a joystick wireless. is so difficult to me , in middle of a dogfight lock the other plane whit the mouse ( mousse in my left hand) and joystick in the right hand and i have the cable in the middle, because i need get the joystick center with my body (in my penis ,yes, i said it!) i don't know how do the American F16 pilot whit the joystick in the right (i can't concentrate)
so .. i am more in the search of a wireless joystick. cant found it

with the clickable panel i don't have problem, i change the mouse to the other hand for a few seconds.

simples
*Saitek Aviator Joystick (Saitek AV8R-01 Aviator, PS41 Aviator Joystick)
*Saitek Cyborg X Joystick (i will buy this, after sow release)
* Saitek ST290 Pro PC Flight Stick

then , more complex
* Saitek X52 Flight Control System
* thrustmaster t-flight hotas x

i dont recomend separate josticks

http://www.awd-it.com/ProdImages/5435_Saitek_Cyborg_X_Joystick_USB_Gaming_Controlle r_-_PS38_xl.jpg

[Armatian]

You should really consider two things:

The cyborg stick: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0e4lqyLwOis

Use freetrack, there's no way you could have the same precision using both mouse & joystick.

There's a simpler software, that worked wonders for me: http://freelook.glenmurphy.com/download.php

[Bloblast]

Are there any WWII looking sticks with force feedback?

[zakkandrachoff]

You should really consider two things:

The cyborg stick: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0e4lqyLwOis

Use freetrack, there's no way you could have the same precision using both mouse & joystick.

There's a simpler software, that worked wonders for me: http://freelook.glenmurphy.com/download.php

very tanks for the data! the more interesting thing in that video is the dead movemment that have the stick and the computer dont register that little movement. cyborg is trash.
i willresearch more info about that Thrustmaster T.16000M and the saitek aviator.
is another good flight stick ??but only one piece, no feedback apart.

[zakkandrachoff]

this saitek x52 is amazing, but more expensive. have everything. and a little mousse control (for doa little view over our head in middle of dogfight) .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIMFU-F2xKs&feature=fvst

[MikkOwl]

Yes, I fight for our cause a bit with Logitech when it comes to the G940... :)

----

The Cyborgs are extremely nasty, and I mean extremely! I handled them. They have a skeletonized structure with adjustable (sounds good on paper but sucks in practice) parts/sections. The thing flexes.. Trying to push a thumb button with the thumb and the whole top part will flex forward, not just the button. I'm glad I tried it before buying before. Junk.

The Saitek Aviator felt pretty good. It is twisty but is more stable/rigid, not flimsy like the Logitech 3D Pro. The design looks good and is very suited for WW2 planes. PC version has a split twin throttle which is cool too - can fly multi-engined planes or have a throttle + prop pitch for example. I tried to order the PC version but they were out of stock everywhere. Only the console versions, which have single throttle only. Went with the Logitech Extreme 3D Pro instead, which I already mentioned. This was before the G940.

I also handled a Logitech Attack3 or whatever it was called. Was even cheaper than the 3D Pro and was not twist stick - I quite liked the feeling of it.

Saitek X52 looked and felt quite nasty. Surprisingly so. G940 feels and looks like a wet dream in comparison.

[SEE]

I have the Cyborg X, it's cheap! The reason that they flex is that all (and there are lots!) of the adjustment points are left loose and need tightening as soon as you take it out of the box. The annoying free play is due to the yoke rake adjustment being held by a spring loaded pin and not a screw. Buttons fall off and need modding too......all easy to do for a DIY enthusiast. I like the layout and it's cheap enough to carry out the improvements and void the warranty. When it finally falls apart, I will get something better. Quality of Madcatz products leaves a lot to be desired but you get what you pay for. I (ab)use it a hell of a lot and it still functions....:grin:

[Sokol1]

-If i could buy core logics and pots, happily would make my own, but i don't know how, that's even more difficult here.

To illustrate, this HOTAS of a squad mate is all DIY, he carved the plugs in wood, make molds with fiberglass and mold final grips with fiberglass. Gimbal is automotive U-Joint, and, instead springs use hydraulic dampers - this allow use stick as trim (like in Black Shark): put the plane iin some attitude and hands off the stick, he maintains the position.

Electronics is BU0836, Allegro HALL sensor, commercial switch's and buttons.

http://img815.imageshack.us/i/hodas8004.jpg/
http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/7631/hodas8003.jpg
http://img823.imageshack.us/i/hodas8001.jpg/
http://img693.imageshack.us/i/hodas7007.jpg/

Sokol1

[Armatian]

Awesome setup, i'm clicking as mush ads as i can to buy the bu0836 XD
I'm electromechanical highschool graduate so it's should be doable, but that looks terrific quality, not sure i can replicate all.

[Robotic Pope]

I have the Cyborg X, it's cheap! The reason that they flex is that all (and there are lots!) of the adjustment points are left loose and need tightening as soon as you take it out of the box. The annoying free play is due to the yoke rake adjustment being held by a spring loaded pin and not a screw. Buttons fall off and need modding too......all easy to do for a DIY enthusiast. I like the layout and it's cheap enough to carry out the improvements and void the warranty. When it finally falls apart, I will get something better. Quality of Madcatz products leaves a lot to be desired but you get what you pay for. I (ab)use it a hell of a lot and it still functions....:grin:

My Cyborg X is still working ok too after a couple of months use. Maybe i'm lucky? No buttons have fallen off yet and the free play is nothing like as big as the one in the video. So i'm happy with it seing as I paid very little for it and I think its an ok stick for PC sim rookies like me, before thinking about a more expensive stick in the future if I get more serious about Sim flying.