Bf110 Defensive Circle

[PeterPanPan]

Hi,

From the various books I have read, it seems that it was common practice for groups of Bf110s to form up into a defensive circle when under attack. Each aircraft covered the one in front making this a pretty effective, albeit defensive, manoeuvre.

Just wondering, Oleg, if the AI 110s will adopt this tactic - would be most excellent!

PPanPan

[swiss]

This tactic has been proven to be ineffective against the smaller, faster and more agile fighters.

Didn't even work against the outdated swiss planes in 1940, the Swiss attacked them from a steep dive, the Krauts lost(-more planes than the Swiss...). ;)

[Igo kyu]

The Luffberry Circle:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lufbery_circle

Also used by allied fighters in North Africa, and successfully attacked by Marsaille.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans-Joachim_Marseille

To counter German fighter attacks, the Allied pilots flew "Lufbery circles" (in which each aircraft's tail was covered by the friendly aircraft behind). The tactic was effective and dangerous as a pilot attacking this formation could find himself constantly in the sights of enemy pilots. Marseille often dived at high speed into the middle of these enemy defensive formations from either above or below, executing a tight turn and firing a two-second deflection shot to destroy an enemy aircraft.

[K_Freddie]

Also used by a Japanese squadron, but was destroyed by US pilots attacking in the opposite direction to the circle..

Gentlemen (and ladies :cool:)... please do not follow tactics 'by the book'.. you will lose your virtual life.

[=KAG=Bersrk]

This tactic has been proven to be ineffective against the smaller, faster and more agile fighters.

Didn't even work against the outdated swiss planes in 1940, the Swiss attacked them from a steep dive, the Krauts lost(-more planes than the Swiss...). ;)

Actually, this taktic prooved to be EFFECTIVE against large numbers of enemy aircrafts. It was during BoB, later over Greece and USSR. This taktic was widely used by ZG units untill 1943, and worked good even againts La-5's and Yak-9's.

Also, it was a main defending taktiks of Il-2 regiments, and 100% prooved its effectiveness against Bf109's and Fw190's.

So, dont cheat us :)

About Swiss in early june 40:

4.6.40:

6./ZG1 lost 1 Bf110C, Uffz. Albert Killermann/Uffz. Gotfried Wohl both killed by Swiss Bf109D.
In return, II./ZG1 pilots shot down Bf109D (J-310) from Fliegerkompanie 15.

8.6.40:

Around 12:00 II./ZG1 pilots bounced C-35 of FK1 and shot it down.
Then, a hour later, II./ZG1 was attacked from above, and lost 4 Bf110:
Fw. Otto Beiter(KiA)/Ogefr. Robert Hink(WiA)
Uffz. Alois Scholz(KiA)/Ogefr. Walter Hofmann (KiA)
Fw. Manfred Dahne(WiA)/Ogefr. Herbert Klinke (WiA)
Oblt. Gerhard Kadow (StaKa)(WiA)/Uffz. Fritz Wonnicke (KiA)

In return, they shot down Bf109D (J-328 ) from FK15 and heavy damaged Bf109D from FK21, piloted by Oblt. Borner.

[AndyJWest]

I fail to see how any tactic that involves going around in circles over enemy territory until you get low on fuel can be much use. Once you form the circle, you are effectively a fixed target. Your opponent has two choices: (a) station enough aircraft above the circle to make whoever breaks out first a dead duck. Then wait for volunteers. Or more subtle, pull back far enough that the first pilot to break from the circle stands a decent chance of getting away...

Either way, as long as the Bf-110s are circling, they are making things worse for themselves. Tactics like his only make sense in situations of near absolute air superiority.

[Skoshi Tiger]

When on a server where I am out numbered 5-1 I generally fly slowly in a straight line. It is normal to loose 2 or more of the pack attacking you from team kills, collisions and shoulder shooting as the opponents jostle for a firing possition. Even if only two them go down your team is still ahead!!!!!

cheers ;)

[=KAG=Bersrk]

Defencive circle was effective in:

-Jabo missions, prooved in BoB and later in battles on Eastern Front in 41-43.
Group of Bf110\s JaBo, after seeng their alloted target, formed a wide circle, and attacked one after one in shallow dive, then strafing all what survived under the bombs. After job was done, they climb still in circle (defending themself if there were enemy fighters) - and dive away for home, using amazing Bf110 dive abilityes. If that taktics was used properly, losses were really minimal.

-Bomber escort missions. Usually (in early stages of BoB) Bf110's formed defending circle OVER bombers, and moved together with bombers on the course. If RAF fighters choose to attack Bf110's - bombers have clear space to target, and bomb it. If RAF fighters choose to attack bombers - silly choise, keeping in mind a battery of 6 guns, diving on You from behind. All things changed 180*, when Bf110 were ordered to low-speed close-escort, and were tied to bombers. That decesion means a gravesone for many Bf110 crews...

-fighter sweep missions - when Bf110 saw climbing RAF interceptors, they made Abwehrkreuz and, as waited result, most of RAF fighters were busy to attack it, spending ammo and fuel, but usually without any good result. At the moment of german bombers arrive on scene, RAF fighters usually must return to base and land because of fuel/ammo out.

Yes, sometimes there were exeptions, but that exeptions proove a rules.

[Feathered_IV]

Hi,


Just wondering, Oleg, if the AI 110s will adopt this tactic - would be most excellent!

PPanPan

It's been asked before. The devs did not comment though.

[=KAG=Bersrk]

I think its because AI taktiks is not done yet.
But I think it could be done in future, when AI will be done.

I would like to quote my good friend and respectfull Bf110 specialist:
I'd like to touch on the defence circle (or the 'attack' circle as some crews disparagingly called it). A couple of examples:

1. The Croydon raid of 15th August 1940 involving the Bf 110s of Stab, 1. & 2./Erprobungsgruppe 210. Going in to attack the airfield, RAF fighters were already seen. The simple tactic,therefore, upon releasing their bombs was to climb and form a defensive circle(s), which was done. None were shot down while in the circle. What had to happen next was on a command, those aircraft in each circle would break for home as an entity. Wolfgang Schenck (and I hate quoting this guy on a regular basis, but he had so much information and knowledge that it would have been foolish to ignore it) told me that when he rejoined his Staffel (1./Erpr. Gr 210, the old 1./ZG 1) on 4th September 1940, he had chatted with Martin Lutz about the loss of Rubensdörffer on this raid. Lutz told him that 'Rubs' had got the break from his 'Stab' circle all wrong, resulting in Rubs (CO), Fiedler (Adjutant) and Koch (TO) being shot down, and Willi Benedens (who was attached as supernumerary to the Stabsschwarm) getting back to Calais-Marck in a badly damaged Bf 110. For the other two circles, 1. Staffel lost one Bf 110 (Beudel) and 2. Staffel lost two Bf 110s (Ortner and Habisch), with recent evidence pointing to the likelihood that Habisch's Bordfunker, Elfner, inadvertently shot through the rear controls of his aircraft in trying to fend off RAF fighters, thereby shooting his own aircraft down. SO, for the two Staffeln who got the break from the circle correct, losing one aircraft each to 18 RAF fighters (9 each from 32 and 111 Sqdns.) seems to be pretty good damage limitation. And yes, I know you must factor in the Stab losses overall, I'm just pointing out what the situation was with a well executed circle and break for home.

2. The defensive circle set in place on 27th September by ZG 26 when Erprobungsgruppe 210 set out to attack the Parnall factory at Yate near Bristol. ZG 26 set up a holding circle near the coast to await the return of 210 from the target. Now I don't know how good Luftwaffe Intelligence was with regard to the placement and movement of RAF Squadrons, but 504 Sqdn moved to Filton OVERNIGHT and were in place wonderfully to head-off 210 as they approached their target. Perhaps Luftwaffe Intelligence believed there would be no RAF squadrons in the vicinity of the target, and so believed 210 could have a free run in on it, while ZG 26 waited near the coast where it was believed the real intervention would take place. Hence the ZG 26 position and holding circle, in place to protect and ferry the bombing 110s back across the Channel, and mix it with any RAF squadrons that rose to intercept. We know that 504 intercepted 210 in the Bristol area, which was probably not part of the Luftwaffe plan, and more RAF squadrons intercepted around the coastal area and further inland, with consequent losses to the 110 units.
The above are just two examples of how the circle was used in the 'so-called' Battle of Britain (mustn't offend some people who say it never took place...!!!)

Another point I would like to quickly touch upon which has been mentioned in this thread, is the deployment of the Bf 110 fighter force. From the many interviews Peter Cornwell and I (and I'm sure Chris Goss also from his own research) did with Bf 110 crews, all those in the pure fighter units said that their role was close escort to bombers (immer, immer Begleitschutz). When you then consider the speed of bombers, and a fighter being tied to close escort to them, you can then see the huge disadvantage they were at when attacked by RAF fighters who might only be flying at just above two-thirds of their maximum speed. In other words, a Spit or Hurricane flying at 250-280 mph going after a 110 at about 200 mph. That is one hell of a disparity in air speed, and ability to avoid a sudden attack. That then lends some credence to the view that they were deployed incorrectly, and is supported by the famous request from a famous 109 pilot who asked to be allowed to have his unit roam free to hunt down the enemy and not be tied as any kind of escort to bombers. The decision to tie the Bf 110s to close bomber escort was a death warrant for many young Bf 110 crews as a result. One 110 pilot told me also that too many pilots respected the advice they received, of not pushing their engines to the limit. His attitude was that once in combat or heading for home he would push both engines to the max, and didn't give a toss about the life of an engine - his primary concern was to get back to base and leave it to the mechanics to decide if he'd buggered an engine on his 110 and it needed replacement.

[csThor]

I always thought that the Bf 110 was grossly misused in the BoB. With its relatively high speed and devastating armament it would have been more sensible to sent it on far-ranging fighter sweeps pretty much like the P-51 was used a few years later. It could have disrupted the stream of RAF squadrons forming up over their airfields, it could have made low-level strafing runs against airfields and it could have picked off stragglers and damaged aircraft trying to get back to their bases. It had the range, the speed and firepower to do so ... It was just used in the most pointless way one can think of.

There was one amusing scenario way back on the old german Warbirds server where I flew in a Bf 109 G-6 and we were supposed to escort Bf 110 G-2 packed for bomber hunting. Well, things didn't work out quite as planned ... the Bf 110s suddenly found themselves over an untidy gaggle of P-51s and when the contact reports came in we started sweating in our 109s. But then the chat buffer exploded with kill messages when, as one P-51 pilot called it afterwards, "it started raining 110s". I looked once at the kill messages, then twice ... then came a disbelieving "Am I seeing things? Those 110s killing the Mustangs?" And finally our whole 109 group was laughing via TeamSpeak. I think the Zerstörer guys got some fifteen or twenty P-51s in the process but no B-17.

[=KAG=Bersrk]

Do You mean WarBirds:FH?

[csThor]

Neg, that was before FH. There was an old WB 2.01 server first by Netplayer, then by Tiscali/Gamesmania. It's been gone for years now.

[=KAG=Bersrk]

Ahhh... Golden age :) I started to fly Bf110C in WB:FH in 2003 :) I'll never forget those dogfights in "Caesar" versus hordes of Spitfires and Hurricanes in 39-40 :)

[Erkki]

I always thought that the Bf 110 was grossly misused in the BoB. With its relatively high speed and devastating armament it would have been more sensible to sent it on far-ranging fighter sweeps pretty much like the P-51 was used a few years later. It could have disrupted the stream of RAF squadrons forming up over their airfields, it could have made low-level strafing runs against airfields and it could have picked off stragglers and damaged aircraft trying to get back to their bases. It had the range, the speed and firepower to do so ... It was just used in the most pointless way one can think of.

There was one amusing scenario way back on the old german Warbirds server where I flew in a Bf 109 G-6 and we were supposed to escort Bf 110 G-2 packed for bomber hunting. Well, things didn't work out quite as planned ... the Bf 110s suddenly found themselves over an untidy gaggle of P-51s and when the contact reports came in we started sweating in our 109s. But then the chat buffer exploded with kill messages when, as one P-51 pilot called it afterwards, "it started raining 110s". I looked once at the kill messages, then twice ... then came a disbelieving "Am I seeing things? Those 110s killing the Mustangs?" And finally our whole 109 group was laughing via TeamSpeak. I think the Zerstörer guys got some fifteen or twenty P-51s in the process but no B-17.

To the above... Apparently the few times the Bf 110s were not assigned to escorts, plus Erp.Gr.210, they were rather successfull both air to ground and air to air. In a strategy game Eagle Day (and the redone, Gary Grigsby's Eagle Day to Bombing The Reich), the Bf 110s are artifically forced to escort and bombing only(latter for just 2 units), because "it would be a game killer" if allowed to sweep or do free hunt. :grin:

[csThor]

I've got "Eagle Day" (or rather MatrixGames' remake combined with BTR) and I was pretty disappointed that I cannot really use "my" forces as I see fit.

*posturing on* I'm the Reichsmarschall, dammit! I can do whatever I like. *posturing off* :mrgreen:

[Feuerfalke]

I always thought that the Bf 110 was grossly misused in the BoB. With its relatively high speed and devastating armament it would have been more sensible to sent it on far-ranging fighter sweeps pretty much like the P-51 was used a few years later. It could have disrupted the stream of RAF squadrons forming up over their airfields, it could have made low-level strafing runs against airfields and it could have picked off stragglers and damaged aircraft trying to get back to their bases. It had the range, the speed and firepower to do so ... It was just used in the most pointless way one can think of.

Agreed. IMHO yet another example of what an idiot Hitler and his helpers were in using modern weapons right and to see the importance of weapons-development.
Hitler looked at WW2 from his little WW1 infantry experience and shaped all branches to support tanks and infantry. He didn't realize most of the potential of the technology at his hand or possibilities offered. Not to mention his poor ego ruining most crucial operations.

[swiss]

Well, it wasn't Hitler(he was an idiot anyway), but Göring and his staff.
Think of the supplies he promised for the Russia campaign; 500t airlift per day, no prob.
Couldn't even bring in 100t...
What an arrogant stupid fuçk.

[=KAG=Bersrk]

To the above... Apparently the few times the Bf 110s were not assigned to escorts, plus Erp.Gr.210, they were rather successfull both air to ground and air to air.

Actually, "zerstorer" Bf110's dont needed escort.

"JaBo" was need escort always. In cases when they had no escort and had no air-to-air losses together with successfull mission - there were just no (or very little) RAF fighters precense.

Just remember 15.8.40 raid, when "Rubs" and all his Stab./Erpr.Gr210 were shot down (cowardly fighters of JG52 just left them treatly for death), or 27.9.40 event, when Bf110's of ZG26 were so much outnumbered that were no able to move inland and meet ErprGr210, when it came under attack of several RAF Sqdn's. Again, Gr.Kdr. and StaKa-2 were killed, together with other losses.

Bf110 JaBo were no need escort in 41-42 in Russia. But not in the Battle of Britain.

[Erkki]

Thats what I meant, when they were not assigned to the silly close escort role themselves.

It paid back to the allies, easily, as a night fighter, though...

[Avimimus]

It would be really nice to see more period and airplane specific tactics. It would also be nice to see the possibility of greater coordination by formations (eg. trying to outclimb other formations, regrouping, group turns etc.)

[PeterPanPan]

Wow, I had no idea my post would arouse so much interest. Thanks for all your interesting posts people.
PPanPan

[K_Freddie]

Wow, I had no idea my post would arouse so much interest.

You have no idea!!! :grin: how a simple question has the abiility to set off WW3 on these and the zoo forums.
Always have popcorn and a beer ready!!
:grin:

[Avimimus]

Well at least we don't have a "here's what happened thread" like the BOBII crowd...

It is interesting to see that the Lomac community has evolved back towards the standard Flankerite mineral like attitude towards the world.

Meanwhile the use of S! has virtually vanished from the WWII boards but remains in the WWI community from whence it first became common.

Ah... the oscillations.

[He111]

Apparently the Defiants of 264 Sqn used the defensive circle successfully but they had a turret! :rolleyes:

.

[Blackdog_kt]

It would be really nice to see more period and airplane specific tactics. It would also be nice to see the possibility of greater coordination by formations (eg. trying to outclimb other formations, regrouping, group turns etc.)

That's something i liked a lot back in the day when flying European Air War. The AI didn't really do it on their own, but that sim had a very good radio command system and you could do wonders with your own flight. For example, you could be leading a dozen P47s on an escort mission and split them up as you saw fit: four of them would be cruising slightly ahead of the bombers in a small sweep/early warning role and to break up head on attacks by enemy fighters, four more would be assigned to close escort at the back of the formation and your section would be flying above them all, able to see everything, direct the show and intervene wherever help was needed.

This was very satisfying because it gave you opportunities to win against greater enemy numbers by using good positioning. Suddenly, it wasn't all about shooting everything down, but it became about exercising crowd control against the enemy and preventing him from doing his job. Splitting the sections up that way, i could deny free reign to enemy fighters in all of their attack profiles by positioning wingmen in their way and whenever i saw tracers, i just dove down and attacked whatever enemy fighter managed to slip by them.

It's also a good illustration of how responsibilities change when moving up through the ranks, a flight leader needs to be able to see what happens and direct the action appropriately even more than being able to shoot down the enemy himself. It was like having a small strategy game within each mission, great fun.

I don't know if this could be done in SoW, because EAW's command system made heavy use of padlock.
For example, if you gave a "regroup" command it meant "stay close to me and carry on with the mission, engaging when necessary" (different to the disengage command, which prevented them from engaging). However, if you targetted one of the bombers you escorted and ordered a regroup for the third flight, it meant " the four of you, go on with the mission, aka escort, but do so in the vicinity of the friendly bomber i have targetted". This way, you could position a flight to cover the back of the bomber formation in close escort.

Since fewer and fewer people use padlock nowadays, maybe it would need a "cursor" function to have commands like that, eg by pressing shift a command cursor appears in the middle of my view. Then, while panning my view i can direct my wingmen to do what i want around a specific part of the sky or in relation to the position of other aircraft, friednly or enemy (ie, order them to "attack the left side of the enemy bomber formation", by holding shift and looking at it before pressing the "attack" command key). It would be cool, it wouldn't need padlock to be enabled and it would also be faster than sequencially going through all the targets by padlock, just look at where you want things to happen, hold the cursor modifier key and give the command. Especially with TrackIR and the cursor key assigned to a HOTAS button, it would be a breeze, fluid and fast.

[Allons!]

Defencive circle was effective in:

-fighter sweep missions - when Bf110 saw climbing RAF interceptors, they made Abwehrkreuz and, as waited result, most of RAF fighters were busy to attack it, spending ammo and fuel, but usually without any good result.

Hi Berserk, Moin Thor,

what was this Abwehrkreuz? Tried to Google it but no hit.

Best, Allons!

[JtD]

I guess it's Abwehrkreis, which is the literal meaning of defensive circle.

Kreuz = cross.
Kreis = circle.

[talonite]

While playing the dynamic "Zerstörer" campaign that comes with the game, if you radio your base for support (Tab -> 8 -> 1) your Schwarm of Bf110G2 will form into a defensive circle. You have to be on autopilot for it to work, though.

[simbo]

As Sim-123 along with a guy called Oktoberfest we used to fly the 110 only on line and we became quite good at attacking enemy aircraft and of course the circular defence became the natural defensive manouver !

[WTE_Galway]

Apparently the Defiants of 264 Sqn used the defensive circle successfully but they had a turret! :rolleyes:

.

Just how successful ? Successful in daylight for a Defiant squadron might just mean someone survived :P

The much maligned Defiant on the other hand was much under-rated as a night fighter. It was very effective in the night fighter role.