demon line-up

[impy]

i am considering playing the game no loss impossible with demon line-up + demonologists.
But i am still baffled how to effectively ressurect without it being tedious and annoying.
Only demonologists, ressurect spell, time back, paladin ressurect comes to mind when it comes to ressurecting demons
i suppose kiting to Shattera, take units, don't do any cheap quests in order not to make the game to easy to start, come back to debir and start. i guess target spell + paladin ressurect with the help of cloned demonologists would do.
Anybody tried demon line-up? Just don't want to find out later on it is a pain rather than fun

[Metathron]

I was under the impression the resurrection spell does not work on demons? Does the paladin's skill work?

And to me a demon line-up for a no-loss game does sound like tedium. Without the no-loss restrictions (but keeping them at a minimum) it could be fun, though.

[impy]

resurrection spell works, tried it. Paladin skill don't know, but since it happily resurrects everything including undead, droids etc. i suppose it will be fine.

[loreangelicus]

In KBTL I had the Demetrius Staff (-20% leadership of demons) and Anga's Ruby, and had Demon and Demoness in my party; completing that lineup was Inquisitors, Shamans, Emerald Green Dragons.

It was a pain to keep the party at no-loss since Demon/Demoness/Shaman were all level 4 units and needed a level 3 Resurrect to recover losses; the Inquisitors, btw, can't touch/resurrect demons. So even if I just lost 1 single Demon I needed to cast a high-mana Resurrect spell for it.

In KBAP, a lineup consisting of Demon/Executioner/Archdemon/Demonologist/Demoness would be nice, but would be a pain to keep at no-loss. I haven't tried using a Paladin unit type to supplement this lineup, but if they could indeed resurrect demons of level 1-4 then they would be great to add (take out the archdemon?). As for his morale...

As for the Paladin character class skill (not the Paladin unit type) it would happily resurrect all losses for one stack of any type, but I found out that it still counts as losses in the record; that's why I stopped playing my Paladin game and played Warrior instead.

[DGDobrev]

Paladins will actually damage the demons rather than resurrect them :) So for now, the only thing that would work for a demon lineup is Demonologists combined with Time Back and Resurrection spells. Healing also doesn't work on demons, Life Light will damage them too.

That really limits the options, but I guess when there's a will, there's a way :)

[Metathron]

I meant the paladin unit's talent, not the paladin hero's skill. :)

Did the resurrection spell work on demons in TL? Otherwise don't know where I got this preconceived notion that it doesn't.

[loreangelicus]

Yup! The Resurrection spell worked fine on demon unit types in KBTL, and I would assume that it still does in KBAP.

Heal and Bless don't work on demon unit types though as early as KBTL, so maybe that's where you got the notion that Order spells in general don't work on demons.

[DGDobrev]

I meant the paladin unit's talent, not the paladin hero's skill. :)

Did the resurrection spell work on demons in TL? Otherwise don't know where I got this preconceived notion that it doesn't.

Exactly - the paladin unit talent doesn't ress demons, it damages them instead.

[impy]

Now it just leaves one question unanswered.
Which character is more suitable - paladin or mage.
Paladin would be immensely helpful with ressurection, then higher leadership for demonologists, higher defence resulting in less ressurecting.
However, there are so many mage skills needed:
order magic 3 - ressurect up to level 4 units
distorsion 3 - time back, phantom, target
summoning 3
chaos 2+ - my preferred tactics if there are no archers left : fear the last unit and start ressurecting for 4 turns without worrying.
loads of mana available..
I think i stick with mage.
Now line -up will be : archdemon, demon, executioner, demonologists and then...again demonesses or little imps? Demoness is slow. imp is low level unit so it may screw up fear tactics

[impy]

I played a bit with demon line-up and it turned out to be quite interesting, it deserves few words I think. Currently level 30, things finally going smoothly, just defeated demetrius 3 guardians and got reha scroll.
Although not as extremely challenging as my previous attempts with single black dragon or ultimate challenge with knight, it will ask any seasoned player to come up with fresh tactics. Basically, no loss impossible game asks you to play a bit conservative, demon line-up will ask you to play super conservative due to lack of affordable ressurecting.
I mentioned before, at the beginning I kitted all the way to Shettera, did not do any quests on the way, just picked experience shrine in order to have enough leadeship for one archdemon, and back to debir to start the game. I did not allow myself to do any quests in new areas until I defeat their map guardians properly with demon line-up.
I made sure the following items appear easily accessible : demetrius, bow of souls, twinkling boots, belt of mana, chaos crown + death star, ressurection, turn back + demonologists.
Things get tough after Scarlet island, since
1) your demonologists are weak to ressurect
2) you don’t have enough intellect for powerful ressurecting
3) ressurect 3 cost 30 mana, time back on archdemons 30 mana. Your mana regen. is low, mana accelerator not maxed out, mana pool not great yet. So good bye mana hungry higher damaging spells, if you want to do ressurecting.
4) But, if you give up harsh spellcasting how are going to kill the opponent with mage with low att/def and leadership, early in the game?
That’s why I said this set-up is fairly challenging, try it. Up until level 25 it is certainly challenging. I picked mage for this challenge and never regreted this decision, paladin wouldn’t be able to keep up with ress.requirements.
Strategy: Basically, demons and executioners do just finishing jobs in order not to get hit much, demonologists hide, damage is done by demon summons from demons+demonologists, archdemons and hastened scoffer imps + pet dragon is used for mana acc & ball. I did not take elenhel, since i find attributes of bow of thousand soul too good to give up. Question was who would become target. Archdemons seemed an obvious choice, but a pain to restore, only demonologists or time back, but eventually it worked. Check out the screenshot, not bad for un-buffed unit,hm? Executioners turned out to be a bit of dissapointment for unit with highest leadership req. of all 4th level unit. Their terrifying ability gives a headache, cause it automatically makes imps a target. But imps are much better than demoness.

[BB Shockwave]

I found that you can easily get a no losses game ending even with a warrior - granted, I was playing on Hard only. I used an all-lizardmen army, btw though it took until around level 21 to get to Reha finally. I maxed out Order and Distortion magic for Time Back and Resurrection, as well as all the nifty mass beneficial spells of these schools which come really handy. In AP magic crystals are plentifull so getting spells upgraded is easy. And you can easily get lot of mana with good artifacts, not to mention the skill that gives you mana every time you kill a stack of enemies - it can be abused in fights with Towers to no amount.

I do plan to do a mage with demon army next myself. In the original game, the demons weren't that powerfull sadly, but in AP especially the Archdemons are awesome. Their halving ability can really turn the tide quickly. I think even Cerberi are usefull - due to their new ability they can run and block several enemy archers at once. SCoffers imps are good too, but perhaps better worth summoning them with demons. I guess Demons/Executioner can be swapped depending on what you face - Executioners are not too usefull against undead and lizardmen, but otherwise can seriously hamper an enemy with debuffs. In my first playthrough I used Demonologists for a while, they are very effective healers and give you instant fodder - but due to their short range not too good damage dealers. I guess they can be used until you have enough mana/power for resurrect and demon portal, which will be more effective later on. Also the fact that you cannot control the summoned demons can be a hindrance as they can ruin your strategy.

[ckdamascus]

Any update on this? I am curious about this since executioners "seem" to be the best candidate for Lvl3 "Berserker" given they have the highest base attack rating for level 4, therefore, will benefit the most from the spell.

Or perhaps I should just live with demonologists summoning up executioners, and then berserkering them. :) I usually casted kamikaze on the demonologist summons. Ah the joy!

A real shame it seems most no-loss strategies revolve around the paladin or eviln.

[impy]

I found that you can easily get a no losses game ending even with a warrior - granted, I was playing on Hard only. I used an all-lizardmen army, btw though it took until around level 21 to get to Reha finally. I maxed out Order and Distortion magic for Time Back and Resurrection, as well as all the nifty mass beneficial spells of these schools which come really handy. In AP magic crystals are plentifull so getting spells upgraded is easy. And you can easily get lot of mana with good artifacts, not to mention the skill that gives you mana every time you kill a stack of enemies - it can be abused in fights with Towers to no amount.

I do plan to do a mage with demon army next myself. In the original game, the demons weren't that powerfull sadly, but in AP especially the Archdemons are awesome. Their halving ability can really turn the tide quickly. I think even Cerberi are usefull - due to their new ability they can run and block several enemy archers at once. SCoffers imps are good too, but perhaps better worth summoning them with demons. I guess Demons/Executioner can be swapped depending on what you face - Executioners are not too usefull against undead and lizardmen, but otherwise can seriously hamper an enemy with debuffs. In my first playthrough I used Demonologists for a while, they are very effective healers and give you instant fodder - but due to their short range not too good damage dealers. I guess they can be used until you have enough mana/power for resurrect and demon portal, which will be more effective later on. Also the fact that you cannot control the summoned demons can be a hindrance as they can ruin your strategy.

all the best to all kbap gamers, but BB Shockwave, i have to disagree with some of your comments. First, hard and impossible difficulty are different and that extra difficulty will put those easy peasy strategies to shame. You say you got Reha scroll on hard at 21 level. The easiest Reha scroll is in my opinion at Elon between the two castles, and I don't remember to get it on impossible no loss until 25 level if lucky, more like 30 level.. Halving ability of archdemons is great, but in most of the battles you face huge threating stacks with much higher leadership than you have = no halving until later. I do not find Cerberi useful. Their damage output is low, and they die quickly. True, you can time back them or heavily ressurect them, but there are better strategies. Dangerous enemy range attackers can be always tricked with target or blind, sheep, fear. And inability to control the summoned demons is a hindrance? How? You do not care if they die, the only bad things I can think of are stepping on your own traps, attacking blinded unit, but again, positives of meat shield far outweigh the negatives.

As for the progress, I left the demon line-up at around level 30, since I become so powerful, that middle game became too easy for my liking. I intended to get back to it, but lost the save file:-(. Then I was playing with single red dragon, got stuck at k'tahu fight, now playing no loss impossible mage, no kitting, no wanderer scrolls, no direct damage spells, no creature summons, no hero summons, no hero phantoms apart from paladin phantom purely for ressurection purposes.Quite interesting

[ckdamascus]

Too easy? I live for the "kick the computer's butt" combo! :) I call it pay back for all the times I had to re-load because I messed up my strategy for a no-loss battle. :)

How can it be too easy? The early archdemon made it rough for the enemy? I still can't see how the demons can survive against a powerful boss like k'tahu.

Interesting? That sounds insane! Insane! I can't see how that is possible without a very lucky saved game of decent items early on.

My early game on Debir is about getting royal thorns asap so I could stand a chance against the heroes.

You truly are a hardcore gamer! I salute you! Do tell your early strategy in winning without any form of 'kiting'. By the way, is it kiting when you kill the devilfish first by using the boat instead of fighting the first monster right outside the city?

[impy]

As for the single archdemon, you can clear whole debir while heavily working on the medals. you should have trap 3 before fighting for verona scroll after clearing first 3 islands and most of rusty. Don't forget when playing demon line-up, I , eventough i did not do any quests in newly opened areas, i had access to demon army+demonologists. As i said earlier, you have to play super conservative, generally never go forward with your army, use summons from demonologists + demons, range attack from demonologists, scoffer imps, hit-and-run tactics with archdemons, clever spells with mage - fire arrow for burning big stack, fear spell on big stack, slow, dragon kick, anything that will stop enemy to hit you and if it happens, be it only one stack, so ressurecting is manageable.

As for the general no loss impossible start. No kitting means you do not get new continent scroll without fighting "stationary" creature stack guarding it. But you can do anything else - get treasures, lure enemies etc.so what i do at the very beggining is get easily accessible Bolo & Scarlet scroll, go to Bolo, get amulet of illumination from behind the robot G...something, get all possible leadership rods everywhere, back to debir. With your leadership get 3 or so paladins, go to scarlet, fight the skeletons to get archmagi from the tower. Now you have 4 archmagi - split them into four single archmagis + paladins. Back to debir and start serious fighting. This army will be enough to finish off debir believe me, while you cast only magic shield with archmagi, paladins do the killing, hero casts traps + stone skin, archmagi also move enemies onto traps. Pet dragon for mana acc. + treasures+kick on traps. Even some stacks in Scarlet you can defeat with this army, just increasing number of paladins. Eventually you can have paladins + 3 slots of archmagi + inquisitors (for rage generation). You should hit trap 2 ,guardian 2 , grand strategy 2 fairly quickly, don't forget to heavily "abuse" every single fight in debir aiming for 3-4 traps/fight + 20-25hits on guardian medal. keep pushing for trap 3, by then you should be close to guardian 3 as well. These two perks are very helpful. Once done with them, you can have the army set up you like. Many folks like to get to Zig-zag cave quickly as well, but for some reason i don't

As for my latest challenge being insane:-). I honestly did not use kb scanner. I found a black dragon on rusty, which was a bit disappointing because it made many things easier, but i could not resist to take it:-)

[ckdamascus]

Ah ok. Not sure if I just had a hugely bad luck first impossible mage run, but I think the maps were initially guarded by some nasty bad guys.

Ever since I tried the gift mod pack, all my games have spawned scarlet island and bolo without any real guardians (they are not stationary). Again, maybe it is just my brain going wonky.

Ah yes, very good combinations. I did know most of those! Strangely enough, the past two games I have not beefed up my trap medal at all. Funny, since when one guy here mentioned he didn't like the pre-traps on the field, I thought he was nutty as I was super dependent on them. Now, I can live without traps, but I know they are very good for most mage armies.

Darn. Now that I think about it, maybe I SHOULD be getting traps for my current mage/archer army. Hm.

Ok, I wasn't sure if the "no kiting" requirement meant you could not grab even bolo or scarlet island without fighting the enemy.

The quad archmage idea is pretty cool.

WOW, black dragon on rusty! Nice! I thought I was lucky when I found red dragons on verona. :)

[Zechnophobe]

Bolo and Scarlet are always pretty much unguarded. Sometimes there will be someone...sorta nearby. (For instance, the Beholder hero sometimes 'guards' one).

Also, all map guardian stacks are larger than others of similar level. So it is not too surprising if they are very strong. That's normal!

[BB Shockwave]

all the best to all kbap gamers, but BB Shockwave, i have to disagree with some of your comments. First, hard and impossible difficulty are different and that extra difficulty will put those easy peasy strategies to shame. You say you got Reha scroll on hard at 21 level. The easiest Reha scroll is in my opinion at Elon between the two castles, and I don't remember to get it on impossible no loss until 25 level if lucky, more like 30 level.. Halving ability of archdemons is great, but in most of the battles you face huge threating stacks with much higher leadership than you have = no halving until later. I do not find Cerberi useful. Their damage output is low, and they die quickly. True, you can time back them or heavily ressurect them, but there are better strategies. Dangerous enemy range attackers can be always tricked with target or blind, sheep, fear. And inability to control the summoned demons is a hindrance? How? You do not care if they die, the only bad things I can think of are stepping on your own traps, attacking blinded unit, but again, positives of meat shield far outweigh the negatives.

As for the progress, I left the demon line-up at around level 30, since I become so powerful, that middle game became too easy for my liking. I intended to get back to it, but lost the save file:-(. Then I was playing with single red dragon, got stuck at k'tahu fight, now playing no loss impossible mage, no kitting, no wanderer scrolls, no direct damage spells, no creature summons, no hero summons, no hero phantoms apart from paladin phantom purely for ressurection purposes.Quite interesting

I see your point, keep in mind I went with a Warrior, not a mage, so I had larger armies to help me get the guardians. Also, I played with the first russian version, where you could often 'kite' (is that the word?) away the guardians in some cases from the maps. I'm aware that in the english version this is not possible...

Some of your "challange" games sound incredibly hard, I salute you! :) Me, I just want to re-play the game while trying out different armies and how they work. Usually I start the game with the idea in mind on which units I want to use, and won't rest until I get them, that's why I want to try an all-demon army. I never use the "killer stack" strategies like Anga's ruby and all female units, because frankly that sounds boringly simple. All units have some worth, and I want to try them all - when playing all-undead, I kept using Zombies for a long time until I got Black Knights, and found them to be quite usefull, even if not superior to the knights.

[ShuiMienLung]

I've got to be honest, it sounds like if you want to make the game as hard as possible... play as Warrior. All of these strategies I see posted all the time rely hugely on having two casts available (Mage-only skill), and of course Paladin has Resurrection scroll to be turned into a spell from the beginning of the game.

I can't count the number of times I wish I've been able to cast twice (particularly in AP where Time Back has been moved to a spell rather than a Rage ability).

[OGKingsBounty92]

all the best to all kbap gamers, but BB Shockwave, i have to disagree with some of your comments. First, hard and impossible difficulty are different and that extra difficulty will put those easy peasy strategies to shame. You say you got Reha scroll on hard at 21 level. The easiest Reha scroll is in my opinion at Elon between the two castles, and I don't remember to get it on impossible no loss until 25 level if lucky, more like 30 level.. Halving ability of archdemons is great, but in most of the battles you face huge threating stacks with much higher leadership than you have = no halving until later. I do not find Cerberi useful. Their damage output is low, and they die quickly. True, you can time back them or heavily ressurect them, but there are better strategies. Dangerous enemy range attackers can be always tricked with target or blind, sheep, fear. And inability to control the summoned demons is a hindrance? How? You do not care if they die, the only bad things I can think of are stepping on your own traps, attacking blinded unit, but again, positives of meat shield far outweigh the negatives.

As for the progress, I left the demon line-up at around level 30, since I become so powerful, that middle game became too easy for my liking. I intended to get back to it, but lost the save file:-(. Then I was playing with single red dragon, got stuck at k'tahu fight, now playing no loss impossible mage, no kitting, no wanderer scrolls, no direct damage spells, no creature summons, no hero summons, no hero phantoms apart from paladin phantom purely for ressurection purposes.Quite interesting

I have to disagree alot with him :twisted: I thought and still think Demons are the best troop in the game especially with that anga ring. Demons are the only units that use dragons (both black and red) like red light district hookers..fire doesn't do much damage to demons and the Demon unit is ridiculous with that retaliation ability. On AP I walked all over the lizard king boss in Reha. I've never used the Demon pooch just Demoness and Demons.

[Razorflame]

demons best?

rofl

2 stacks of repair droids >demons :D:D

demons are very weak they cannot be ressed so easily
and not alot of enemies do fire damage(save for dragons)
u can use very cheap strats with demons however;-)
^^

[OGKingsBounty92]

demons best?

rofl

2 stacks of repair droids >demons :D:D

demons are very weak they cannot be ressed so easily
and not alot of enemies do fire damage(save for dragons)
u can use very cheap strats with demons however;-)
^^

Don't ever go into tactical battles or try out for officer at a Military Academy.

"The best defense is a great offense" - every intelligent and successful General that ever stepped into a battlefield.

What is "ressed"?? I'll put my 3 demon army with 120 Demons, Executioners and Demoness and send them to your 2 stacks of Droids ANY day. :mrgreen: I want to see you heal 3/4 of one stack with the other repair droid after my Demons have my way with them. Again, I'll have my way with dragons in that den in Montero and you've already admitted I have an advantage in cheap tactics with them. Demons have never been weak for me, anything but. There's an axe you can equip them with that does alot more criticals and another that does extra damage. My Demons critical almost every hit and their criticals do 13k-17k plus damage enough to destroy or badly weaken anything.

How the hell do you guys use the repair droids so well? I can't seem to heal them fast enough or well enough against harder enemies. What exactly are you guys doing? I'd like to learn the way of the Droid. 8-)

[BB Shockwave]

Yup! The Resurrection spell worked fine on demon unit types in KBTL, and I would assume that it still does in KBAP.

Heal and Bless don't work on demon unit types though as early as KBTL, so maybe that's where you got the notion that Order spells in general don't work on demons.

I am now level 38 with my Demon Army/Mage build, so I can give some info on these....

Heal indeed doesn't work on demons. Oddly enough, neither does Hell breath - guess they already have a fiery breath, so they cannot get more "hot". :) Life Light and Paladin (unit) Prayer damages Demons, actually.
However, Resurrection, Armor of God, even (funnily) Guardian Angel works fine on Demons. Bless cannot be cast on them directly, except for shrines on battlefields, and Inquisitors cannot cast their Holy Rage on them either - they can, I mean, but it only adds Bless without the Rage bonus. The Level 3 Ancient Phoenix's "Tears of Life" cannot resurrect Demons, either.
Gizmo heals/gives action points to Demons as well.
Oh, and they cannot get Plague - meaning it's a good spell to use on enemies.

So far, it's a lot of fun. My general line-up is Archdemons, Executioners, Demonesses, Demonologists and Cerberi. With Undead, or Gremlin Tower battles I sometimes swap in the Executioners for Demons, for tough battles I replace Cerberi with Demons. And sometimes I use Scoffer Imps too.

Dragon of Chaos, especially on Level 3, works like a charm with Demons. I have gotten Demetrius up to tier 3, have the Bow of Thousand Souls and the Hellfire Necklace. Demons having a basic 50% (and Archdemons 80%) resistance to fire means you can throw fireballs/fire rain around like there is no tomorrow. Summoning with demons and demonologists is fun, but you have to be careful if you want to keep enemies alive for resurrection as they cannot be controlled.
This army is also the best for using Death Star, as your Archdemon is bound to be the first to move in every battle and can teleport out of the way. Demonesses might be slow and I rarely ever get them to the front lines, but their swapping is great to get the Executioners into the throng, and some damaged enemy unit back next to the ladies for Charming in the next round. And then you can have fun with Sacrifice... :)
Cerberi deal great damage, but they are fragile. Best used in the first rounds and then ressed with Time Back.
Executioners can be a great help to get level 1-2 units to leave all my units alone with their Fear. Them and Demons excel as tanks, and dominate helps with killing 1-3 level units, as does unlimited retaliation and the Anger ability that often lets them act a second or third time in each round.