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View Full Version : Single black dragon - how far can you get?


impy
02-21-2010, 10:51 AM
There was a post while ago from mr. Dobrev (and others) about playing the whole game with single black dragon, eventually employing black knights & trolls towards the endgame. I was interested to find out how far you can push it with single black dragon only. I dare to say, if everything is done properly, every stack apart from few bosses can be beaten this way. Yes, that includes frog, spider, driller. I’m currently 54 level, all creatures and heroes on the maps beaten, apart from arena of death so far, and about to try my luck with gremlion. There is a fighting change since his magic damage does only 51 damage and with a bit of luck he summons 5 non-summoning towers. So I thought I share my experience. But first, boys, understand this, in case some funny threads appear again - many of us have finished the game on impossible no loss, and looking for ways to keep entertained with the game - for some it is finding interesting set-ups, for me it is extreme difficulty.
This challenge will ask you to do things which are fairly infrequent - necro call, mystic egg anyone?
Points distribution:
1) attack. None. Your dragon will be ,apart from finishing last few troops, just flying around not directly engaging anyone. Attack may be useful for your summons, but points are better spent elsewhere. Do not rely on dragon burning ability, since the damage depends on leadership of this stack, which in this case is only 2500/dragon, so your burning will be cca 300/turn
2) Defence. I wanted to make sure I have 60 points difference between dragon and creatures in order to receive only 1/3 of damage (see KBAP info thread). So I went for composite artifact +50% defence plus +2 dragon morale ending up with 135 defence, which should be sufficient. Defence also helps your summons to survive, which under these conditions is more important than attack. Do not stock up on defence too much, mana+int are more important.
3) Intel. & mana. As much as you can get. However, be flexible. In situations where you need to dish huge amount of damage quickly equip +intellect, less mana, and use pet dragon for recovering mana. In other fights I go for convenient 200+mana pool with less damage and cast summons.
4) Pet dragon - mystic egg,lighting ball, mana accelerator. Pick blue one for + 1 initiative. Lightning ball not strictly needed until Reha. I was also experimenting with stone wall, but it is of no real use. Oh, and treasure search for runes. Since you will not be buying any army, you'll be swimming in money, I had 4mil at the end.
5) Might tree. Anger 3. you want to be able to use dragon for +25 mana preferably every turn. Caution 3. Saved my live many times. You want extra physical resistance in first round while you have no summons and enemy is in full numbers.
6) Mind tree. Voice of Dragon 3, naturally. Adrenaline 3, more on that later, Absolute Balance 3, for extra rage& mana, and all skills giving +intellect.
7) Magic tree. Everything but alchemy. Alchemy is a waste, get neatness 1, buy all artifacts level 1-3 and destroy them for crystals. Order magic is also pretty much useless, leave it as the last one for faster calm rage.
8) Spells. Fire arrow+poison skull will be of massive use. Frequently you'll find yourself just flying around for rounds, with enemies burning. I have 4254 hits on Battle alchemy medal. Later in the game you'll have fun with death star. Also have pygmy, sheep, blind, necro call, nature call, demon portal, plague, fear,slow ready. I hardly used anything else. Geyser+lightning not really needed. I also carry many of abovementioned scrolls in case i run out of mana. Equip sage skull, increase the quantity of scrolls, take it off. I really like using Fire rain level 2 as a first spell.
9) Resistances. Fire&magic res will be maxed easily. Ignore poison res - kill frog quickly, slow and death star bone dragons, avoid alchemists. Astral res not needed. Physical res - i really considered restart since i did not have twinkling boots, but i managed. You'll need a lot, but do not sacrifice to much intellect. P res is very much needed in middle game, when spells are still weak, I had 47%. Later i dropped it to 32%.
10) Companion. Elenhel, suprise:-). I actually did not pick her until i was level 46, to make sure i beat her. Scarlet island fella was ok untill then.
11) Wanderer scrolls. I did not need any until Reha, so save them,unless desperate. Make sure you have several of +attack, deff, int, mana,rage,crit. I started using ancient knowledge after level 40 on heroes, just to get extra levels& runes quickly, since things get tough on last few islands.
12) Equipment. Collect belt of the victor, Gloves of the destroyer most importantly. Things, which will make your life easier are - Elkonium, Twinkling boots, Chains of war, Living book...
13) Arch enemies. Repair droid - yes, no blind, fear, weakness, sheep. I usually use pygmy+death star, followed by fire ball+death star. Arch demon. Halving ability. This is why you need Adrenaline 3 + blue pet dragon to match their initiative 9. I use poison skull+death star, repeat. Cyclopes - fire ball + death star.
14) strategy. see attached screenshots and you get the picture. Just few things - demon portal is of huge importance, Your fighting, rage generating force. for tough fights - round one - cast nature call 1 with target on it while pet dragon brings mystic egg. Or find a hardly accessible spot for your black dragon and surround him with demon portals. or, kill weakest stack first, cast necro call. Don't forget, most enemies level 1-4 can be easily feared.
15) Spider. dragon in the corner, surrounded with demon portals, kill spider with spells. no rush, since he does no direct damage.
16) Frog. again dragon in the corner, 3-4 demon portals only , but be quick to kill him due to poison spit. He has weak fire resist, so keep slapping fire balls on him.
17) Driller. Cast demon portals like crazy, fire arrow in the meantime. All summons apart from archdemons just defend or kill droid summons. Archdemons, cast stone skin on them and bash driller. Always make sure you have 2 useless summons standing in the line, so driller is likely to attack them and leave your dragon alone.

That's it. Have fun. I laso include my latest save when facing Gremlion, if someone want to give it a try.

impy
02-21-2010, 12:31 PM
more pics for viewing pleasure:)

Metathron
02-21-2010, 01:43 PM
Just a quick question off the top of my head: In the battle against Samman, for example, how do you protect the dragon from being destroyed by the archdemons when they act right after your dragons? I can imagine moving the dragon to a hex that has only two adjoining hexes and casting demon portal on both, but is there such a spot in this battle? If there are three, what would you do to occupy the third hex? The dragon's wall is the only thing that comes to mind.

Anyhow, muy impressivo! :)

Hento
02-21-2010, 02:01 PM
Alchemy is not a waste, get it maxed as soon as possible.

10) Companion. Elenhel, suprise. I actually did not pick her until i was level 46, to make sure i beat her. Scarlet island fella was ok untill then.

Elenhel is male, Princess Amelie is not a lesbian.

DGDobrev
02-21-2010, 02:08 PM
@Metathron

Well, this is what I did in that battle:

Turn 1. Move the Black Dragons to a hex that have only 2 advacent hexes near his starting position. Put traps on both hexes. Both archdemons land on the traps and get damaged and poisoned (since by now you should have trap lvl 3). If you have rage, use mana accelerator to compensate for the lost mana for the traps.
Turn 2. If there are still archdemons, move the Black dragon to the opposite cell that has 2 adjacent cells and put 2 more traps. By now most of the enemies have moved towards the center and the southern part (your part) of the battlefield, but still, they shouldn't pose a threat.
Turn 3. Now analyze. If there's an enemy that can reach you, put a trap on this path and wait with the black dragons. You still have 1 cast left and the enemies have all moved. Use the final cast to deal a hard blow to the enemy stacks by death star or geyser. Use mana accelerator to recover some of the mana and use BD's ability to damage as many enemies as possible to generate some more rage.
Turn 4. Use mana accelerator and hide the BD's on one of the "towers" (the spots that have only 1 adjacent cell to the in the eastern and western part of the battlefield. Use poison skull on the most dangerous enemy stacks and analyze again - either wait or use deathstar/geyser again.

Now the enemy stacks have been greatly reduced, Archdemons are no more (unless one of the portals spawn them, but they are usually in a small quantity) and you can fly from side to side and cast spells to destroy them. Don't worry about armageddon - as long as there is no unit samman can target to cast armageddon (and the BD's can't be targeted) you can easily win the battle.

@Hento

Alchemy IS a waste if you use neatness lvl 3. There is no point in losing so many runes to learn alchemy when by breaking the items you buy for runes and crystals you will get all the extra runes/crystals you need. I made the mistake of taking both once - no more. Having 500+ crystals left and all your spells built up to the max is inefficient.

TemjinGold
02-21-2010, 02:08 PM
Alchemy is not a waste, get it maxed as soon as possible.



Elenhel is male, Princess Amelie is not a lesbian.

And you know this how? :D

Metathron
02-21-2010, 02:23 PM
@Hento: Elenhel & co. are companions/armor bearers, not partners, so the point about Amelie's sexuality is moot. :-P

As for Alchemy, I do find it rather useless. I wouldn't pick it with a mage, still less with the other two classes. You simply don't need (to upgrade) that many different spells that would justify taking this skill. I did take it in TL once or twice, but Neatness in AP eliminates the need for Alchemy completely in my opinion.

@DGD: Wasn't aware armageddon required a target, as I've never used it myself. :oops: Come to think of it, it doesn't really make sense, but anyway I'll remember that the next I fight the peasant hero in Verona.

rickah88
02-21-2010, 02:51 PM
I think the biggest challange of them all is to get this game released on DVD-ROM in the United States. That would be impressive!

DGDobrev
02-21-2010, 03:12 PM
rickah88, do you ever stop?

Metathron:
Well, I never even had any hero cast armageddon on me with a single BD or a BD stack. This was the basis of my assumtion. If I am in error, someone should correct me. Still, the BD's are immune to spells, so logically, casting armageddon should not harm them, as it's a spell.

impy
02-21-2010, 03:49 PM
Just a quick question off the top of my head: In the battle against Samman, for example, how do you protect the dragon from being destroyed by the archdemons when they act right after your dragons? I can imagine moving the dragon to a hex that has only two adjoining hexes and casting demon portal on both, but is there such a spot in this battle? If there are three, what would you do to occupy the third hex? The dragon's wall is the only thing that comes to mind.

Anyhow, muy impressivo! :)

actually there are 2 spots on the battlefield (look at my screenshoot), which are accessible via one hex only. So cast demon portal there and you'll be fine. In the actual game, i did not go there, there were 2 stacks of 10+ archdemons. i killed one using poison skull + death star first round, the second stack, crippled with death star hit me without halving. Halving would actually do 500 damage so it is not really end of the battle. And remember, my defence was 130+, while archdemon attack was around maybe 80, plus I had 30%+ phys. res, so their damage was only few hundreds.

Using traps for arch demons is interesting strategy, but i think traps are " one round wonder". Yes, it will stop enemy from attacking you, does cca 5000dmg = 5 archdemons, but that's it. Casting demon portal creates meat shield and once you slap target on them next round and kill 5level creatures you'll be fine.

Armageddon. Hm..It says in its description it does fire damage, but when I cast it myself it hurt dragon a lot. It turned out it does ASTRAL damage, as i found out after putting the helm with 50% astral res.

Hardest fight so far, apart from driller when i was praying for demon portal to bring arch demons, was marakesh. Two armies of 260 brontors, immune to mind, and when I blinded them, marakesh dispelled it. Mystic egg he destroyed with geyser. Also 2 armies of 2016 Choschas summoning 2000+ gobots every second turn..

TemjinGold
02-21-2010, 04:01 PM
rickah88, do you ever stop?

Metathron:
Well, I never even had any hero cast armageddon on me with a single BD or a BD stack. This was the basis of my assumtion. If I am in error, someone should correct me. Still, the BD's are immune to spells, so logically, casting armageddon should not harm them, as it's a spell.

Actually I think that's because you never outnumbered your enemy leadership-wise...

Metathron
02-21-2010, 05:12 PM
I think the biggest challange of them all is to get this game released on DVD-ROM in the United States. That would be impressive!

I thought that your post in the review thread was in place and not spamming/trolling like it was rather unjustly called. But this...I'm seriously thinking of putting you on my ignore list and then you can spam every thread to your heart's content as your posts will be invisible to me.

If anyone is wondering how to do that:
http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/profile.php?do=ignorelist

I hope you reconsider, though, and stop this because all you're doing is grating the members' nerves. I'm sure you have something of value to say, or something that's pertinent to the topic at hand at the least.

impy
02-21-2010, 06:34 PM
arena of death completed. boy, was it tough, i went through some cigarettes:-)
First fight against great many hayterants was everything but easy. if you come close, they do critical attack. If you leave them, they lay eggs. I hid dragon behind traps, kept casting fear, few demon portals + death star.
Second fight was ok. Since Harrum only casts divine armor, i turned brontors into sheep, avoided tyrexes, and mystic egg did the job.
It now leaves gremlion, since i do not think k'tahu can be defeated.
Pretty charming still, if everything but last two bosses can be beaten with single creature:-)
That brings the question - would it be teoretically possible to defeat k'tahu with red dragon instead, so you can heal him?

Hento
02-22-2010, 04:51 AM
Alchemy IS a waste if you use neatness lvl 3. There is no point in losing so many runes to learn alchemy when by breaking the items you buy for runes and crystals you will get all the extra runes/crystals you need.

I don't know how you play this game but I specifically remember not being able to upgrade spells for a long periods of time because I didn't invest in alchemy.

travelingoz
02-22-2010, 05:19 AM
Hento. i think because we mostly play no losses or very few losses, we generally have lots of money to spare. So by investing in Neatness AND buying every available Item, then destroying the ones we dont need, we have more than enough crystals to upgrade the spells we use. :grin:

DGDobrev
02-22-2010, 10:44 AM
travelingoz is completely right. Hento, please check the lvl 60 thread and see the screens:
http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=139907&postcount=1

You will notice I got 1048 crystals which is pretty much enough to build up every spell in the game to lvl 3 without investing in alchemy at all. Now imagine you picked alchemy along with that. It reduces the number of crystals you need to level up a spell by 50%. how many crystals would you have left in your inventory? What would you do with them?

This is why I talked about efficiency. KBAP likes efficiency much more than KBTL.

impy
02-22-2010, 07:31 PM
It seems that this black dragon thread turned into discussion about alchemy vs. neatness:-).
I do not recommend picking alchemy at all, regardless of the character. Unless you play the game for the very first time and want to see what spells do. honestly, you only need to max out maybe 1/4 of all spells in the game. I personally find great majority spells in order magic mediocre and of limited use. Some suggest going for neatness level 3, but personally only go for level 1. Buy all artifacts 1-3, keep those 5-10 which may eventually be used/upgraded and destroy the rest. I never really felt in great need of crystal, besides when short, you can always prioritize which spells to upgrade first. Example: Calm rage is a great spell, but do you need it to be level 3 untill very late in game? no.

By the way, i managed to defeat gremlion with single black dragon, see screenshots:-)
It turned out to be mathematical exercise.
1) Gremlion summons up to 5 towers, i had to make sure that all of them are evil, in order not to get attacked due to imunnity. He actually summoned 1 friendly gremlin which i had to kill with 2 x death star at the great mana cost.
2) Gremlin attack was 85, so i wanted to have 145 on dragon in order to receive 1/3 damage only. My defence 130 + wanderer scroll (10) + defence command (8) = 148 achieved that goal.
3) dragon has 95% magic resistance, so gremlion damage was 46-54/round.
4) therefore my time to kill him was 1000 (dragon hit points) / cca 50 = 20 gremlion magic attacks
5) btw it says in info thread that when gremlion wants to place a tower and cannot due to all hexes being taken, he does nothing. I hope i got it right. But it is not true. once he had all 5 towers placed he kept casting magic attack every single turn.
6) going back to 4) I therefore had cca 25 rounds (+5 rounds for placing towers) to kill gremlion = my 25 + 6 initial double castings = 31 castings.
7) gremlion hitpoints 154000 / 31 castings = cca 5000 damage per casting to him.
8) obvious choice therefore was fire arrow costing 31 x 5 mana = 155 mana overall + having cca 80 mana in reserve for higher damaging spells .
9) question was how to get fire arrow to do 5000 damage.
10) I had fiery bow - +50% to fire arrow spell + 65 intellect = 4615 damage and it turned out to be enough.

DGDobrev
02-22-2010, 08:16 PM
Well done :)

The info thread is correct (I had him skip a turn), however, chances of doing that are very low, like from 1/30 upwards for each round (so it's not guaranteed that he'll skip a turn even once in 30 rounds), because the chances of him casting his mass attack when there's nothing he can hit or there's nowhere to place a tower are so high.

Zechnophobe
02-22-2010, 08:19 PM
Doesn't he only place three towers? Am I just remembering only a run through on Hard, and he does 5 on impossible? I am completely not recalling him ever using 5.

DGDobrev
02-22-2010, 09:03 PM
It's 5 for all difficulties. Maybe you were either destroying them too fast or he was more interested in using his mass attack than summon towers?

Zechnophobe
02-22-2010, 10:33 PM
Weird, did I just get horribly lucky? I seem to recall having my two stacks of Green and Red dragons only dealing with 3 (two total stacks). All were evil gremlins, so I just ignored them. This was in my last no loss impossible paladin game. Or, it is possible I am just completely not remembering it correctly.