How do you beat Super Boss fights with no losses?

[lostkiwi]

I'm a warrior on Medium diifculty, so far I've managed zero losses at level 24

My current setup is:
Green Dragons (primary tank). I have enough leadership for 5 of these guys
Paladins (secondary tank, rezzer)
Shaman (healer, utility)
Archmages (Magic Shield, damage dealer)
Inquisitors (damage dealer, rezzer)

This setup has done pretty well for me so far. However in most fights my dragon does quite a significant amount of the damage, I usually open with Fiery Phantoms, and throw a couple of Dragon Dives in a fight as well.

This is meaningless in super boss fights though, because you can't use your dragon. I had a go against the Enormous Spider, and I had quite a number of losses in the first round alone, and that's not even considering the poison damage that I would have in the following rounds.

Usually I can out last normal bosses, by surviving the initial onslaught, thinning out their troups, and in the end rezzing all of my units using Phantom on my rezzers in combination with Mana Accelerator / Magic Spring when they only have a couple of units left. However that strategy is not possible with Super Bosses, because usually they get harder as the fight goes on, on account of throwing out larger and larger stacks.

So, is it even possible to beat these guys with no losses? If so, could someone please give me some advice?

Many thanks

[DGDobrev]

It's a bit early for you to take on the bosses, for starters. you have 5x1900=9500 leadership for the green dragons, so you're between 9500 and 11399. That is way too low for now. I recommend doing them after you've past level 40 (at least).

Cheesy ways of doing the bosses without a loss is this:
- Use only 1 Black Knight stack with Stone Skin on all the time and have the evlin spell ready to resurrect the losses
- Use only 1 stack of Trolls with stone skin on against underground bosses - Spider, Driller, K'Tahu
- Make sure you use units with good resistance against the boss' attacks (refer to KBAP info thread for types of boss attacks)
- Have Stone Skin lvl 3 on all your units and prepare items that will boost the resistance that conforms to boss' attacks damage
- Make sure you have Phantom lvl 3 and enough mana to cast it (by the means of Calm rage you can convert rage into mana) on your Paladins to resurrect the losses promptly.

But in any case, I looks like a bit too early for you to be going against the bosses right now.

[dashcunning]

Level 40 seems quite a long time to wait, especially on medium. While he could certainly wait a bit, I think his biggest problem is a lack of damage. Shaman, Archmages, and Inquisitors have nice utility but crap damage. Green dragons are tough but crap damage. Paladins have utility and are fairly tough but below average damage.

What units you choose depend a lot on what skills/spells/items are available to you and how you want to play so it's hard to make specific recommendations. But a no brainer in my opinion would be to swap the shamans out for a damage dealer. Royal snakes perhaps, good damage and no retaliation, not terribly fragile (very tough vs. poison). Lake or forest fairies maybe, excellent damage (absurdly so with assasin's dagger), no retaliation, fast flyers, very fragile however.

Try swapping the dragons with royal griffins. Phantom them and have the stacks of angelic guards attack the boss while the original griffins help clear the summoned spiders.

Hell, if you go with lake fairies, forest fairies, and royal snakes, you might be able to hurt the boss so quickly he doesn't have time to summon spiders. I don't recall how much leadership you need for that though.

[DGDobrev]

Well, I guess that (Royal Snakes, 2xFairies, Dryads and Paladins for emergency ress) may be possible on normal. The biggest problem is that if they can't kill the boss straight away, he's in for some trouble, because the boss has a very high chance to hit with both his feet if there are available targets, and that would devastate any Fairies, Dryads and Snakes, because his damage is physical-based in that case and is well over 2k... Lostkiwi wants a no-loss, which may be a problem is such case, because if you're left with some mediocre spider stacks, there is the danger of killing them before you ress properly.

[lostkiwi]

Thanks for the posts guys.

DGDobrev, you raise an iteresting idea that I have never considered, which is to have only a single stack that I can concentrate on keeping buffed.

As you mentioned, I might be able to work it with a single stack of Trolls, since they regerate their health every round. So long as I keep Stone Skin / Magic Spring and possibly even Divine Armour, maybe I can restrict each round of damage to under 780. At worst I can only be attacked by 4 stacks of spiders plus the boss.

It would be a long fight, however if they were able to survive each round, I wouldn't have any mana issues due to keeping Level 3 Magic Spring up on my stack.

I've probably only got enough leadership for 9 or 10 of them at the moment, which may not be enough. Maybe I'll come back to the boss later.

Thanks again

[Mystic Phoenix]

Another tactic which worked for me on Impossible Warrior at Level 30 (could have worked some levels before) was to bring Dryads and Royal Thorns (along with Paladins, Red and Green Dragons) to the spider fight.

With Time Back you have 3 huge stacks of spawned thorns, the first wave of spiders are nor problem to kill, so you can have 6 stacks of thorns very soon. With some thorns attacking the spider, additional spiders are generated not too often, and in case there are you might have no problems to kill them (attack with thorns first, so you take no retaliation) and so you can spawn even more thorns.
My troops didn't cause any damage to the Giant spider itself (red dragons used their breath ability from time to time), just leaned back and watched the show.

[Zechnophobe]

You can likely do the spider now, but not the frog. You are going to have a hard time though with your current lineup against spider because of his retaliation against ranged units.

General strategy against spider: Do not attack mandibles, or you'll get poisoned seriously bad. Attack with one stone skinned tank on each side of him, and use other 5 stacks to kill summons. Keep mana up, and health of tanks (Ress if necessary) and you should do okay.

If you are having a hard time killing spider summon stacks fast enough, it means you are trying this too early.

[Hento]

I think the best lineup for frog and spider would be Repair and Guard Droids(20% physical and 80% poison resistance,and 1 stack of trolls).
You can just phantom Repair Droids to repair them. Also I think in every game you have an item that reduced leadership for droids by 20%, which equals 20% more damage.

[Zechnophobe]

The engineer badge isn't ALWAYS there, but as the only (maybe one of two) level 1 dwarven items, it is very common.

Also, Frog and spider rarely will actually do casualties against good sized and managed armies, so I don't think ressurrections strats are the best way to go.

[BB Shockwave]

Khatu,the frog and the spider are easy to beat. Just make sure you leave one summoned stack alive, keep blinding/slowing it and use Rage to Mana spells to resurrect your losses.

With the Driller, even easier. Just inflict enough damage so that he will retreat next turn. In the next turn, he won't attack you but collapse the ceiling. Rinse and repeat.

Bhaal is another matter. I tried numerous times before finding the correct strategy... his area attacks and summonings will always damage you, but they are so-so bearable. However, never get hit by his sword. What I did was (I was using a warrior with a Lizardman army) to only take one stack of Gorguls with me. First round, I casted Phantom on them and sent them in first, then used both stacks to attack Bhaal through his summoned units - due to the two space attacks, he will not retaliate. Then, just have Bill Gilbert's units take the damage, and only attack Bhaal with your phantoms. Use Rage to mana for resurrection/time back and put lot of protective spells on your troop. Items that increase fire resistance help a lot too.

[tetleytea]

I just beat the Frog on turn 1. LOL!!!! My stone skinned Knights hit him and he retaliated for 43 damage. My pallies critical hit him and he was dead.

Spider was just as hilarious. He summoned his spiders, the Giants stomped and there were like 4 still alive. Turn 2, the boss was dead, but because of the 4 spiders still alive I was able to resurrect my 3 fallen Knights. :)

[DragonBlaster]

I just succeeded killing the Spider with one stack of 7 trolls. I am mage level 27 with 66 mana. I gained 77k experience from the battle!

Spells used:
Calm rage level 2
Stone skin level 3
Fear level 3
Fireball level 3 (1700 damages in center, I don't remember how much Int I have)
Mana Ring level 2

It is just about reaching an hex with only 2 others hexagons in contact. From there I cast Fear on one of the spiders stacks in contact and defend from the other (to accumulate Rage). If the Spider is on one side, I use stone skin and attack it with the trolls. If the Spider is out of reach I Fireball it (which also lower the spiders stacks around, but without killing them otherwise new stronger stacks come in play). All the hexagons are fast full of spiders, but it does not matter. When the spider is dead, I finish off the stacks one by one with Calm Rage giving always some mana. The only problem is the poisonous spiders, but some Fireballs can lower the stacks under 300, which the Trolls can handle.

7 trolls, no loss! With a full army I lost 54 assassins 5 trolls and 60 barbarians. Enjoy the one stack army in Mage ;)

[DGDobrev]

77k?! The spider is 12.7k XP on impossible with a Ancient Knowledge scroll on.

Did you play a lot of turns so that the summoned spider stacks grant you all that extra XP?

[Zechnophobe]

I just succeeded killing the Spider with one stack of 7 trolls. I am mage level 27 with 66 mana. I gained 77k experience from the battle!

Spells used:
Calm rage level 2
Stone skin level 3
Fear level 3
Fireball level 3 (1700 damages in center, I don't remember how much Int I have)
Mana Ring level 2

It is just about reaching an hex with only 2 others hexagons in contact. From there I cast Fear on one of the spiders stacks in contact and defend from the other (to accumulate Rage). If the Spider is on one side, I use stone skin and attack it with the trolls. If the Spider is out of reach I Fireball it (which also lower the spiders stacks around, but without killing them otherwise new stronger stacks come in play). All the hexagons are fast full of spiders, but it does not matter. When the spider is dead, I finish off the stacks one by one with Calm Rage giving always some mana. The only problem is the poisonous spiders, but some Fireballs can lower the stacks under 300, which the Trolls can handle.

7 trolls, no loss! With a full army I lost 54 assassins 5 trolls and 60 barbarians. Enjoy the one stack army in Mage ;)
Yeah, assassins and barbarians probably aren't the right troop for that fight. I just beat it no losses with Paladin on impossible. Army was:

6 Red Dragons, 6 Green Dragons, ~130 Royal Snakes, 9 Bone Dragons, 7 Arch Demons.

Cast stone skin on everything the spider can hit, and then just pound away on him. Note that I had Twinkling boots, Slippery Cuirass, and that one dress for a base of 43% physical resistance.

Instead of a single stack of titans... why not 4... and royal snakes?

[DragonBlaster]

Hi,

yep 77k, I don't know where they come from (maybe because I play in normal). I do kill a lot of spiders stacks during the 90 rounds it takes with my technique! I use a single stack to benefit from the Fear spell /Troll regeneration trick. With several stacks I would have to defend on different fronts. Basically this technique uses the fact that when ALL the hex have a summoned spiders stacks the Spider boss becomes harmless if not in contact... And those stacks are level 2 so subject to Fear. When the boss is killed I have to finish all the stacks 1 by 1...

I note that using 1 stack Paladins I would have almost the same effect because I could Res them.

[DGDobrev]

Interesting. In that case, a stack of trolls, decent physical resistance items and some low-lvl stone skin can easily mean a lot of XP that can push one into higher level if he/she's willing to extend the battle. Pretty cool.

[Zechnophobe]

So there you have it, Giant Spider is the easiest way to get arbitrarily large amount of experience. The stacks will EVENTUALLY become too big to kill, but I'm sure that Stone skinned Red dragons could last quite some time against such a foe. Hmm, which troop would be the best for this? Reds? Trolls? Trolls have an obvious advantage, and if you have some fire and poison resist gear to throw on them, it'd help a lot... but they don't damage very quickly.

It is an interesting thing to think about.

[DGDobrev]

You need something with both physical and poison or fire damage. Trolls should do it, but the chance of spawning poison spiders is bigger than flame spiders. Maybe a decent stack of Black Knights with splinter and some fire protection gear on them will rule, because if everything's ok, you'll need evlin every 10 turns or so, which is bearable, because you'll be gaining mana through lvl 3 transmute constantly.

[Elias_Maluco]

Im yet to understand this whole "no-losses" trend. What´s so wrong about loosing some units once in a while?

[Metathron]

Nothing per se, it's just to spice things up for those veterans who find the game too easy. Mind you, in Armored Princess, the incentive for no loss battles is much higher, as the game will reward you for it by giving you leadership (the Grand Strategy medal).

[Elias_Maluco]

Nothing per se, it's just to spice things up for those veterans who find the game too easy. Mind you, in Armored Princess, the incentive for no loss battles is much higher, as the game will reward you for it by giving you leadership (the Grand Strategy medal).

Which will make the game even easier. I try to beat battles with as few losses has I can, but will only replay a battle if the results are really catastrophic.

Actually, trying to always go for no-losses forces you to exploit the game in the cheapest ways. It can be hard, in a puzzle game like way, but it also makes it really boring, IMHO.

A much more exciting challenge would be "no-reload" (= play it like a "roguelike"), I intend to try it next time.

[Zechnophobe]

Which will make the game even easier. I try to beat battles with as few losses has I can, but will only replay a battle if the results are really catastrophic.

Actually, trying to always go for no-losses forces you to exploit the game in the cheapest ways. It can be hard, in a puzzle game like way, but it also makes it really boring, IMHO.

A much more exciting challenge would be "no-reload" (= play it like a "roguelike"), I intend to try it next time.


This really isn't true. Don't get in a huff thinking that people going for no loss victories are some kind of stuck up anal retentive crowd. But rather, have played through the game on hard difficulties, without worrying about losses, but having few, it is an interesting additional challenge to play through the game again trying to get no losses in those areas where you have.

I wouldn't play every game like this, just as an additional goal once I start feeling competent at the game.

The only exploit I see a lot of no-lossers do is map kiting (It isn't required though, I don't do it).


I think that it can feel intimidating to go on a forum like this one, and see a lot of the diehards talking about no-loss wins. It makes it seem like EVERYONE but you is doing it, and that maybe it is a benchmark for how good of a player you are. But it isn't. It is just a different puzzle to solve.

[DGDobrev]

As the people like to say, quoted for truth. When you have played the game with various chars on various difficulties and got a significant amount of knowledge of the game, you may start feeling a little short-changed, since you're playing the same thing over and over. What saves the game, makes it much better and more fun (rather than repetitive, since you can play with the same lineup 5-6 times and get the same result) is setting some parameters, checking out various tactics, various lineups, and various tricks.

For people who just started playing, as Zechno said, that may seem intimidating. I can only advise them to play the game for fun, the way they feel like playing it and reap their own rewards. This game is not a contest with big prizes for winners and the best players out there - so everyone should find their own means of getting as much fun as they can from it.

[Elias_Maluco]

I think that it can feel intimidating to go on a forum like this one, and see a lot of the diehards talking about no-loss wins. It makes it seem like EVERYONE but you is doing it, and that maybe it is a benchmark for how good of a player you are. But it isn't. It is just a different puzzle to solve.

Fair enough. I love this game, but that (the loss-less thing) would totally take away the fun to me. I can see why people do it, anyway. Sorry for being an ass about it.

[DGDobrev]

You weren't being an ass, don't worry about it. Besides, many people share your opinion, but in the end, it is all about what do YOU like and where's the fun for YOU. As long as you enjoy the game as YOU want, everything is allowed.

For example, right now I work on an Impossible Warrior game with 2 Black Helmets (2 can spawn), Moro Dark, Staff of the Acolyte Necromancer and see how many BK's one can employ against bosses. After I get as much as I can, I'll try to do a 200+ turn boss battle and see how much XP can a player squeeze out from the boss' summonings (transmute lvl 3, Stone Skin, Magic Spring, Evlin and 95% resistances will be necessary). If my premise is correct, a player may easily reach level 62-63 or even more through this tactic.

BTW, on the side note, I know that it's Eviln, but in KBAP there were Evlins in the quest for the evlin eater. Those clouds (evlins) on the map were the same thing as the spell, and killed a % of your troops as well if you pass through them :)

[Harush]

It's just another way some people choose to play the game. Right now, I'm playing one where I'm trying to do zero spell damage on impossible. It's interesting, and very different than a standard run.

[Zechnophobe]

Weird, I almost never do any spell damage. Even as a mage, I prefer control magic over damage magic. Though, I guess if I were to try to do a run like DG did, where I do over half my total damage with my book, it'd feel pretty weird,.