Is SOW BOB going to be sterescopic 3D compatible?

[distant]

The game would look fantastic in S-3D for sure, and I'm so disappointed to read that it's written in OpenGL which is not supported by any of the current S-3D solutions that I know of.

I'm very interested in knowing for sure whether there is any development effort towards S-3D compatibility?



...
9) My question is: on what operatiing system SOW-BOB will run?
Will it be based on OpenGl as Il2 was or DirectX?
Will it be DirectX9 or 10? Or both?

OpenGl - still main.

[genbrien]

I'm not sure but I think Oleg changed his statement, saying that the pic he showed us was in dx9 ,and it was plan in the future to use dx11.... but I may be wrong....:eek:

[drafting]

If they do make SoW 3D compatible, they have to make the projected gunsight sit out at infinity instead of on the cockpit glass...

When flight sims are in 2D, you'll never know the difference, but in 3D, you'll see two gunsights to the left and the right of the target, which makes it a big headache to aim.

It'd also help to have range/plane icons sit at same distance as the plane... otherwise, you can't see both at the same time and it's headache inducing, too.

I've seen the above two problems in another flight sim I've tested with nVidia's 3D drivers, and they make it nearly impossible to dogfight. Otherwise, the 3D effects are mindblowing when just flying around! :grin:

[distant]

Don't know about you chaps, but I no longer play any game/sim in flat 3D and if SOW BOB is not S-3D compatible then it's going to be my huge loss.

[drafting]

That's taking it a bit far isn't it? :) That'd be quite a loss to miss out on Storm of War, and you'd probably have a good long wait before another WWII sim of the same caliber came out.

[distant]

It's been that way for me the past 15 years, absolutely no flat 3D games. IL2 was an OpenGL game but was supported by Nvidia S3D driver up to its sudden 2006 abandonment. When Nvidia 3D Vision became available at the beginning of 2009, its stereoscopy driver no longer supports OpenGL games and because of that until now I still haven't pulled it off the shelf (its DirectX version was not enabled for S-3D either, probably by developer.)

The way things go, S-3D is the 'future' of gaming, 1C should have a longer term vision for their business and incorporate S-3D compatibility with all their future games, starting with this title - to not missing the train.

[von_Rodg]

I agree! Stereoscopic 3D support is my biggest wish for SOW. Might still buy it without,... but unlikely to play it nearly as much.

IL2 was awesome until compatability with NVidia stero drivers fell apart:(. Once you've played in stereo 3d there's no going back.

von_R

[MikkOwl]

Heh, suckers. ;) I can't even see stereoscopic/depth perception properly because one of my eyes has shitty vision and does not look 100% where the other one looks (slightly offset up-left). I have tried differents stereoscopic 3D methods several times in my life and the only thing that happens is that I see 'double' massively. Two different images at the same time, offset, as if very tired/drugged. Colour differences makes it so much worse. Since I don't know what I am missing and find out for myself, I don't care.

Storm of War is supposed to use DX11 from what I recall reading before. Dx9 was the simplest rendering method they had, which is the one that has been used in many of the screenshots.

I think what I want the most, support wise, is proper force feedback. The one used in IL-2 is very crude compared to what is possible. FF is the most immersive thing they can add, I think. Actual physical sensations from the control column.

[distant]

DirectX 9 & 10 will work if there aren't objects at wrong depths (ie. common objects @ wrong depth are 3D clouds and ground objects.)

The latest game/sim Wings of Prey has its 3D clouds at wrong depth thus ruinning the S3D graphic badly, I had to shelve it right after having bought it on Steam. Hopefully SOW BOB will work in S-3D right away on release without the same problem.

[blades96]

Yes, if done properly 3d would add hugely to the experience of playing this game. If it was I would probably splash out for a 3d system just to play it this way.

Those who already have 3d systems, how well do they work with other flight simluators?

[merlin66]

One problem I have seen in flight sims is that the scenery is often rendered first, then the cockpit is rendered on top of it in a different coordinate system. So with a naive stereo driver that simply offsets the viewpoint, the relative sizes of the cockpit and surrounding world is completely wrong.

I could be wrong, but I would expect that the game needs to be aware of the stereo view to solve this problem...

[13th Hsqn Protos]

3d gamers are an infinitesimally small percentage of the market.

I seriously doubt Oleg is going to bother (at least at the start) to make the sim for such a small niche sector. Perhaps later but even then I tend to doubt it ........ not worth the coding time.

[distant]

Well, that's what they said about S-3D movies before Avatar. Heard about that infinitesimally world wide cume movie?

[CRO_Adriatic]

3D is only posible future

[13th Hsqn Protos]

Don't know about you chaps, but I no longer play any game/sim in flat 3D and if SOW BOB is not S-3D compatible then it's going to be my huge loss.


Well while your busy watching Avatar and dreaming of the possible future ....waiting for your 3d sim extravaganza ....
99.9% of the rest of community will be flying.
Have fun watching from the sidelines ;)

[distant]

You seem to have assumed that none other flightsims work in S3D? On the contrary, except IL2 and its derivative Wings of Prey, all other sims ever published work in S-3D gloriously including the latests ie Blackshark, Rise of Flight.

In general, all games that are DirectX8 and above work with 3DVision. There are literally hundreds of games of all genres that can be enjoyed in S-3D at any one time that I honestly don't have time to play them all.

[distant]

It works very well, the immersive feeling is incredible.
If you saw Avatar the movie, amplify that immersive feel 10X then you start to have a feel for the games in S-3D.

Yes, if done properly 3d would add hugely to the experience of playing this game. If it was I would probably splash out for a 3d system just to play it this way.

Those who already have 3d systems, how well do they work with other flight simluators?

[distant]

I agree that there's some disconnect between the cockpit view and the outside view of most flightsims/racing games in the past, except for the beautifully designed Jane's WW2 fighter that worked wonderfully with S-3D in both views IIRC.

iZ3D stereoscopy driver handles this problem by having convergence user presets that users can switch between views. Nvidia, on the other hand, is much too slow to catch on and even now, more than 10 years later, still doesn't have this capability.

And of course if the game designers are aware of S-3D compatibility, this problem will probably easily avoided as well.


One problem I have seen in flight sims is that the scenery is often rendered first, then the cockpit is rendered on top of it in a different coordinate system. So with a naive stereo driver that simply offsets the viewpoint, the relative sizes of the cockpit and surrounding world is completely wrong.

I could be wrong, but I would expect that the game needs to be aware of the stereo view to solve this problem...

[MOH_Hirth]

The time in world of games is fast, we know were are the values of fligth simulation (FM, details...) but the normal gamer want see impressives things like we see in the the "old" Call of duty 4 (great game too)...
For conquest this world SOW must to be impressive, and the 3D will the base to this conquest, if i know Oleg and 1C perfectionism, be shure, they will do, but if compatible.
1C can have a cooperation from nvidia 3D team, and work togheter.

[Darkbluesky]

3d gamers are an infinitesimally small percentage of the market.

I seriously doubt Oleg is going to bother (at least at the start) to make the sim for such a small niche sector. Perhaps later but even then I tend to doubt it ........ not worth the coding time.

Nothing compares to flying in 3D, if possible in big screen, you feel height, and you feel IN cockpit. I understand "distant" perfectly. Any state-of-the art and wonderful sim played in 2D turns pale when it is compared to itself but in true 3D (immersion wise). Most of the people have never had that experience though. People need to test it to believe, and test it without being against it from the beginning, of course. Anyway, what I wanted to say is that I put that question to Oleg in these forums during the first (recent) updates, and maybe people is not aware of the answers of Oleg:

First of all thanks you for you warm words. Really my honesty was always a problem in my life... Especially in soviet time...

If NIVIDIA will give us that hardware later, then I don't think that to implement the page of their souce code would be too complex. I personally have great experience in steroscopic images both in photo and computer. In the past we were one of the very first developers that supported VFX-1 and I-Glasses helmets and stereo gogles. But it was born probably too early.

And:

NVIDIA in direct contact with us. Currently they want us implement the separate support of CUDA.
However its not a time when we may spend additional great time to work with it even it is possible. But we are in constant contact and they never told me about new steroscopic item.
Anyway any implementation of such things as steroscopic should go only when everything is clear and we may spend additional time. Maybe even after release. Because I'm sure there will be add-ons. Not like in the past, but will be. Something will be free. Something - not. The project is too much time and money engrossing due to its complexity.

So, I have faith in Oleg. He likes stereoscopy and has big experience with that in PC and photo, he is not as a normal developer/producer. He has additional interests on several things that other developers not. So, I have hope. When BOB will be published, I will try to contact him to remember him about that (if needed, fingers crossed). Will see.

You can read my messages, to which he was responding, following the link http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?p=115231&highlight=3D+Vision#post115231

PD In the same topic, it was stated several times that the code is no more OpenGL, it is DirectX, and it will use DX10 (?) and DX11 (DX9 too, I think)

[distant]

@darkbluesky: thanks for the info, there is a big chance that the game will work with 3DVision since it's directx based. If they take care of the clouds' and ground objects' depth then it'll be perfect.

Nothing compares to flying in 3D, if possible in big screen, you feel height, and you feel IN cockpit

You reminds me of the first moment when DCS's Blackshark cockpit appeared in S-3D on my 61" @ HD resolution, my 'scream' of joy was probably heard across the neighborhood. Immersion was an understatement. I was actually flying the damn thing. It was pure bliss and it haunted my every waking moment for days afterwards.

[blades96]

If anybody has the time, could someone please do a 3d video from a flight sim and put it up as a 3d video on youtube? I am very curious to see how well this would work.

[distant]

Making S3D video of games by Fraps takes a lot of storage room. A better approach is to download and install iz3D driver and try the game for yourself in anaglyphic S-3D. iZ3D works for both ATI and Nvidia GPU and its anaglyphic output was free last time I checked.

If you had a compatible Nvidia GPU, you can of course install its stereoscopy driver for free and play the game in anaglyphic mode as well.

Have fun.

[drafting]

I really hope that they get Storm of War to be 3D compliant (no 2D rendering tricks)... 3D gaming might not seem important now, but it's definitely approaching over the horizon:

http://hd.engadget.com/2010/01/21/3d-stole-the-show-at-ces-2010/

and will be here soon... I bet Oleg is pushing for the Storm of War engine to last a good 10 years or more (with expansions, sequels, etc), and it'd be a shame to have it miss the 3D boat when the technology is really starting to take off.

...but I guess we'll have to wait and see.

[Rodney]

I used to fly IL2 in stereoscopic vision with edimensional glasses all the time. It looked absolutely amazing, absolutely fantastic. You really do not know what you are missing out on if you haven't flown IL2 in 3D. Once you've flown in 3D you can never go back to flying in 2D. I know I couldn't. And I didn't. That's why I stopped flying IL2 years ago when Nvidia mysteriously dropped support for 3D (on newer cards).

I recently bought a new pair of Nvidia's own stereoscopic glasses, now that they've brought back support. I'm pissed that I still can't use my old edimensional glasses and had to buy Nvidia's product but I'm not going to miss out on 3D. I still use my old 22" CRT - (that's why I kept my old CRT but now LCDs are running at 120Hz I guess I'll update) and as usual flying in 3D looks amazingly good, though these days all I fly is Black Shark. Boring game but the graphics in 3D is amazing.

Fortunately because SOW is using DirectX and not OpenGL the odds that stereoscopic vision won't work at all with SOW is negligibly small. You have no idea how happy I was when I heard Oleg had gone over to DirectX instead of OpenGL because I knew it would work in 3D (IL2 did work with OpenGL but getting it to work was a nightmare and eventually it didn't work at all).

The only question will be that things not really done in 3D will become apparent in stereoscopic vision. For example with MS FS invariably the runway lights and the sun are 2D not 3D and it really shows in stereo, though you don't notice it in 2D you sure do in 3D. I don't think Oleg takes short cuts like that though, so we shouldn't have problems. The old IL2 had no problems flying in stereo (I mean when it was working with the OpenGL thing and all) so I don't know why SoW would.

The only problem likely with SoW is as others have mentioned with the aiming reticle not being at the right distance in 3D. It did work in the old IL2 then something changed and it didn't but I found a compromise with the stereo settings that seemed to work enough to use it. Plus shooting things down just with tracers is a lot easier in 3D, you can judge distance between tracers and plane a hundred times easier in stereo. Also landing is a 100 times easier in full stereo 3D. I could never land any flight sim in 2D but in 3D its so easy (I'm not a particularly skillfull flyer but its vastly easier in 3D than 2D). Its also a ton easier flying really close to the ground without crashing in 3D because you can judge the distance so much better.

You guys who've never flown in 3D (proper stereo vision 3D) don't know what you've been missing out on. Of all the games that have ever been made SoW is THE game that should be in 3D. And I'm sure it will be.

[Flanker35M]

S!

Hmm..would be nice to try IL-2 out in 3D..but not gonna buy a nVidia for that :( Completely happy with my ATI 5870HD. Gotta dig up more on this :)

[Rodney]

If anybody has the time, could someone please do a 3d video from a flight sim and put it up as a 3d video on youtube? I am very curious to see how well this would work.

I recently read that youtube was in fact close to enabling 3D videos to be played. They demoed it at a recent show. I don't think its quite up and running on the actual site yet though?

The thing is though that if you don't already have 3D glasses ($200) or suitable monitor (old 100-120Hz CRT or spend at least $600 on new compatable LCD) then you won't be able to see any youtube 3D videos even when it is up and running. You can use analgraph (colored glasses) but they are total crap and the sort of thing that gave 3D a bad rep in the past.

On the other hand if you do already have stereoscopic glasses you already know how good it is and can make the video yourself.

Another way to put this - you cannot show 3D stereo vision on a 2D monitor - you were joking right? Its a bit like someone with a black and white only monitor asking someone with a color monitor to post a color pic so they can see how good color pics look on their black and white monitor before deciding if they should update from B&W to color.

[Rodney]

S!

Hmm..would be nice to try IL-2 out in 3D..but not gonna buy a nVidia for that :( Completely happy with my ATI 5870HD. Gotta dig up more on this :)

edimensional glasses and more importatnly edimensional drivers still work with ATI cards. Or so they claim. I think they use a line interlacing scheme that just isn't as good as the nvidia system though?

One other thing stereo vision can look like crap if you have a lot of ghosting because you have the wrong set up (such as an old CRT or LCD monitor with <100Hz or simply with slow switching pixels). Thats is where in the past stereo 3D has got a bad rep from. On the right system, a ghosting free system, it looks amazing though.

From my research to date the best LCD TV (completely ghosting free) is not the default option Nvidia sell with their glasses but the Mitsubishi WD-60737 60" Home Theater TV. That's what I plan to get.

[Flanker35M]

S!

Thank you Rodney for the info. Will look into this. I can upgrade my current 24" flat to a 120Hz 22" screen..maybe won't be missing those 2" there..

[blades96]

I recently read that youtube was in fact close to enabling 3D videos to be played. They demoed it at a recent show. I don't think its quite up and running on the actual site yet though?

The thing is though that if you don't already have 3D glasses ($200) or suitable monitor (old 100-120Hz CRT or spend at least $600 on new compatable LCD) then you won't be able to see any youtube 3D videos even when it is up and running. You can use analgraph (colored glasses) but they are total crap and the sort of thing that gave 3D a bad rep in the past.


Yeah, youtube has had 3d video for a few months now. There are a number of options for how to display the 3d. I use anaglyph just to get an idea of what i can expect. Do a search for yt3d to see what is available.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZuikoUr56E

[Rodney]

Yeah, youtube has had 3d video for a few months now. There are a number of options for how to display the 3d. I use anaglyph just to get an idea of what i can expect. Do a search for yt3d to see what is available.


Thanks I have actually seen all those options before though, I don't consider any of them worth while 3D options, I think they are all gimicks that give 3D a bad name. In particular none of them work with nvidia drivers and glasses yet. That will change soon apparently though.

[Rodney]

S!

Thank you Rodney for the info. Will look into this. I can upgrade my current 24" flat to a 120Hz 22" screen..maybe won't be missing those 2" there..

Note that while any 100Hz or greater CRT will work with the Nvidia drivers only certain LCDs will work with it because for the LCD monitors there is a special plug thing that needs to plug into the LCD monitor I believe to control the timing or something. Unless nvidia or the manufacturer vouches for it being 3D ready it may not work with the nvidia system.

On the other hand if you are going the edimensional route with an ATI card then edimensional glasses + ATI card will probably work with any LCD.

I can't vouch for the compatability of the edimensional universal driver though. For example I know that now nvidia no longer support edimensional glasses with their stereoscopic driver, edimensional will still sell the glasses to nvidia card owners and tell people on their web site to just use their universal driver. They fail to inform people that their universal driver does not work on any late model nvidia card with any operating system after XP but will still take their money. Only when you try to install the universal driver does it inform you that it doesnt run on vista/windows 7 for nvidia.

Point is I know edimensional have much better compatabilty with their driver and ATI or at least have had in the past but from previous experience wouldn't trust them to tell you if ATI compatability also became broken.

[blades96]

After some further searching I found some 3d flight sim videos on youtube. I'm only watching them using red green filter glasses, but with hd and full screen the effect is still very impressive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOB1ywoQQ6M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYuCBzsA3Dc

[drafting]

That's interesting that the videos have two images side-by-side when the they're embedded in this page, but they're red-green overlaid when I watch them on youtube.com...

When they're side-by-side, you can cross your eyes (like the old Magic Eye books) to watch them in color-correct 3D, which is pretty cool. I've tried to get friends to try it with other side-by-side 3D images and it never seems to work with anyone else... :confused:

I wonder if any drivers'll ever come out that will let us play games cross-eyed... I know I'd try it at least once. :grin:

[distant]

Good find. Those are nice samples for people who want to have a feel for how flightsims/games look in S-3D. As I mentioned on a post above, you can also play with any DirectX 9+ games with either iZ3D driver or Nvidia driver for free.

With proper polarized or LCD shutterglasses/compatible monitor the colors will be in full palette and depth + convergence will be fully adjustable making the effect much much better.



[QUOTE=blades96;140730]After some further searching I found some 3d flight sim videos on youtube. I'm only watching them using red green filter glasses, but with hd and full screen the effect is still very impressive.

QUOTE]

[nearmiss]

Just for fun

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0045888/

House of Wax 3D movie release in 1953

The technology has gone nowhere new.

The same way they did it then = the same way they do it now

I really have no idea why, but I'g guess 3d has never added much to entertainment.

I wouldn't get too excited about this, just a way to get twice as much for a monitor and $200 for a pair of strange glasses.

Seriously, I'm sure alot could be done for imaging into the realm of 3D. I just don't think the old red eye and blue eye thing is the answer.

Even if the little electronic window shade glasses are tweaking what you see. The glasses are just doing a red/blue switcharoo.

[distant]

Avatar has revolutionized S-3D movie with new tech. ie, RealD and polarised glasses (IMAX uses LCD shutterglasses) bringing full colors, non ghosting, good depth images to audience.

PC gaming has long been using similar technologies, ie polarised and shutter glasses, providing even better quality S-3D images than what Avatar can: adjustable brightness and convergence/separation on the fly.

Nowadays, anaglyph (Red/Blue) glasses are fit only for demo purpose because they're cheap.