Cheap PS3 Track IR next year?

[InfiniteStates]

I've lifted these quotes from another thread and started this one so as not to take the other off topic, but...

...I'm particularly impressed with the Track IR - would free up the right stick on the pad and be so much more intuitive. I just wonder, isn't there a thing called Eye TV for PS that has that kind of functionality, couldn't that be adapted by the developers to sense head movement? I'd get one right away!

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but if possible we should put this on our developers wish list asap.

MACADEMIC

Re: MACADEMIC's post. Hey, like the way you're thinking. Great idea but I'm very sure it wouldn't work. TRACK IR is an extremely sophisticated little gizmo & uses infrared light to track your head movements in much the same way as ultra-expensive targeting systems. Track IR5 is weighing in at something like £130. On the other hand, the Playstation Eye is little more than a glorified webcam. It would've been great if it could be enhanced with games like BoP in providing motion data but I have doubts as to its limitations.

But Sony have this in development, which I'm sure could be packaged in such a way to provide TrackIR functionality. Maybe in time for the BoP sequel :) (Although I doubt it).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiX-26VL4bM

[David603]

Gran Turismo 5 will have something like that, so I'm sure it would be possible to implement in this game.

Xbox 360 players don't have to worry about being left out either, this will be a basic function of Project Natal too.

[haitch40]

Gran Turismo 5 will have something like that,.

oh man when thats out my dreams will have come true

[Zatoichi_Sanjuro]

oh man when thats out my dreams will have come true

PS3's 3D tech will surpass that.

[trk29]

Anton has already stated this is one of the things they are looking at doing with the sequal for BOP. GT will be getting this as well.
Using the PS eye. Hopefully then can implement this. And there is videos on Youtube showing demos of the PS Eye used for head tracking.

[haitch40]

PS3's 3D tech will surpass that.

i ment gt5 its been at the top of my wishlist for 2 years now

[P-51]

Anton has already stated this is one of the things they are looking at doing with the sequal for BOP. GT will be getting this as well.
Using the PS eye. Hopefully then can implement this. And there is videos on Youtube showing demos of the PS Eye used for head tracking.

Like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFN8cW1mSVY

[Spitfire23]

Truly impressive, wonder when these wand things will be released

[MACADEMIC]

Thanks for picking up the suggestion and making a new thread. I'll also link this one on the 'Suggestions to Developers' thread.

Seems after all like the EyeTV is in fact quite capable of precisely tracking headmovements. It would be so cool if our beloved developers would implement this feature. This, in addition to looking around with the head, could be used to bring out amazing 3D effects on the screen (only for the person who is being tracked, so this would be limited to one player per screen, which should be no obstacle for BOP).

Here's another video to illustrate this (3D effect shown starting from 2:30):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw&feature=player_embedded#

The technology seems to be ready. Go, Anton and team, go :!:

MACADEMIC

[Houndstone Hawk]

Thanks for picking up the suggestion and making a new thread. I'll also link this one on the 'Suggestions to Developers' thread.

Seems after all like the EyeTV is in fact quite capable of precisely tracking headmovements. It would be so cool if our beloved developers would implement this feature. This, in addition to looking around with the head, could be used to bring out amazing 3D effects on the screen (only for the person who is being tracked, so this would be limited to one player per screen, which should be no obstacle for BOP).

Here's another video to illustrate this (3D effect shown starting from 2:30):



The technology seems to be ready. Go, Anton and team, go :!:

MACADEMIC

This is very exciting news indeed. I've been using the Track IR for a few years now & I'd be lost without it (which is why I've found BoP so frustrating). If console players can soon enjoy this head tracking tecnology from a simple gadget as the playstation eye then ... WOW; you're in for a treat! The more ppl that enjoy this freedom of ingame viewing; the better! :grin::grin:

[MACADEMIC]

This is very exciting news indeed. I've been using the Track IR for a few years now & I'd be lost without it (which is why I've found BoP so frustrating). If console players can soon enjoy this head tracking tecnology from a simple gadget as the playstation eye then ... WOW; you're in for a treat! The more ppl that enjoy this freedom of ingame viewing; the better! :grin::grin:

Houndstone Hawk, are you able to check your six with the Track IR? How much do you have to move your head to do this in a cockpit that allows you rear vision, such as the LA-5FN?

Thanks!

MACADEMIC

[Houndstone Hawk]

Houndstone Hawk, are you able to check your six with the Track IR? How much do you have to move your head to do this in a cockpit that allows you rear vision, such as the LA-5FN?

Thanks!

MACADEMICHi MACADEMIC. Yes you certainly can. The great thing about Track IR is that it works off 6 axis of movement so for example if you look back in a Spitfire or P-51 Cockpit & are confronted by a restrictive view from the head rest etc, you can move your head left or right & the 3D movement will able you to look around the obstruction as in real life. It's also great for instrument reading. Simply move your head forward to become closer to the console & recline back in your seat to increase the FOV (field of view) once again.
I will aim my next Wings of Prey video at yourself & will dedicate it to the workings of Track IR, using the LA-5FN. Hope it'll help! I'll post it on my 'What Birds of Prey Should've Been' thread.

[InfiniteStates]

I don't understand how you can move your head that far... Surely you still need to be able to see the screen? Maybe I just have the wrong pre-conception about the whole thing...

[winny]

I don't understand how you can move your head that far... Surely you still need to be able to see the screen? Maybe I just have the wrong pre-conception about the whole thing...

I was thinking the same thing... The only way that it would be truly usefull is if it was packaged with a VR type headset with built in screens. Or am I also missing something?

[Houndstone Hawk]

Quotes:
MACADEMIC
Houndstone Hawk, are you able to check your six with the Track IR? How much do you have to move your head to do this in a cockpit that allows you rear vision, such as the LA-5FN?

InfinateStates
I don't understand how you can move your head that far... Surely you still need to be able to see the screen? Maybe I just have the wrong pre-conception about the whole thing..

winny
I was thinking the same thing... The only way that it would be truly usefull is if it was packaged with a VR type headset with built in screens. Or am I also missing something?


Hope this can answer some of your questions. ;)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AA0tgNehIZw

[winny]

Hmm. I can see how it would be useful for looking around the framework of the cockpit. However turning your head left and having to look right (at the screen) seems totally counterintuitive. The whole point of turning your head to the right is so you can look right.. With this you end up looking left.
Does anyone use this in conjunction with a VR type headset? As I said before it's pointless without one.

[Houndstone Hawk]

Hmm. I can see how it would be useful for looking around the framework of the cockpit. However turning your head left and having to look right (at the screen) seems totally counterintuitive. The whole point of turning your head to the right is so you can look right.. With this you end up looking left.
Does anyone use this in conjunction with a VR type headset? As I said before it's pointless without one.

I'm afraid I can't understand your logic atall on this one winny. When you look left, right, up, down, where ever, your eyes are always planted firmly to the screen & so you're never really moving your head to the left & looking right at all. It's an absolutely natural experience & a great way to overcome the limitations of playing a game on a 2-D screen.
Whatever your head does is mirrored perfectly in the game & the movement in real time is so slight, you are always in constant eye contact with the screen & always with the utmost of comfort.
Regards to your last sentence; you've confused the hell out of me to be brutally honest. When you say VR type headset, do you mean the sensors that have to be worn with the Track IR system? If so then yes. As I explained in the video, Track IR consists of a USB Infrared camera that is placed around eye height, on top the monitor or screen. The user then wears some form of sensor on the head, be it a clip that attaches to the front of a baseball cap, or a more hi-tech gadget that can clip onto a headset or a simple headband (which I use).
I was hoping that my video showing the simple wireframe models would've answered your questions. Oh well. Good try I guess, lol. :rolleyes:

[winny]

My logic is sound. My explaination may be a little confused...

What I'm saying is that if you turn your head right to "look" right in game, your eyes will then be looking to your left to be able to see the screen. So in practice whichever way you turn your head your eyes have to go in the opposite direction to remain focused on the screen. Which is counterintuitive. When I say VR headset I mean one with inbuilt screens. I totally get how it works and how it could be usefull but you are basically controlling a hatswitch with your head. For it to function in a realistic way, ie. looking over your shoulder to "look" behind you, it would require the screen to be attached to your head...

In fact I'm surprised that no-one has come out with a system that does this..

If I was designing one it would be made to look like a modern fighter pilots helmet with the screen built into the visor and all the track-IR stuff on it. A video lead and some headphones built in.. Probably be too expensive to do but would be good to try out.

[Houndstone Hawk]

My logic is sound. My explaination may be a little confused...

What I'm saying is that if you turn your head right to "look" right in game, your eyes will then be looking to your left to be able to see the screen. So in practice whichever way you turn your head your eyes have to go in the opposite direction to remain focused on the screen. Which is counterintuitive. When I say VR headset I mean one with inbuilt screens. I totally get how it works and how it could be usefull but you are basically controlling a hatswitch with your head. For it to function in a realistic way, ie. looking over your shoulder to "look" behind you, it would require the screen to be attached to your head...

In fact I'm surprised that no-one has come out with a system that does this..

If I was designing one it would be made to look like a modern fighter pilots helmet with the screen built into the visor and all the track-IR stuff on it. A video lead and some headphones built in.. Probably be too expensive to do but would be good to try out.

? I think you've just dreamed up a video game perepheral in the region of thousands of pounds, lol. I'm still completely baffled to your theory. You are only going through a slight motion in turning your head to the left, right, up or down. The movement is so slight. Not once have I, or any other user that I know of, have used the Track IR & thought "Hmm that's a totally counterintuitive experience there. A glorified hatswitch for the head is what it's not. Show me a hatswitch that is capable of movement around all 6 axis of 3-D movement. You can even crane your head in such a way that you can look fully around the cockpit flight controls (not that you would really want to). To the wearer, it's the most natural experience when placed infront of a 2-dimensional screen & it beats the hell out of the laborious 'padlock' switch. The user can implement natural skills of keeping tabs on his enemy.

There's alot of talk of bringing head tracking to PS3 & 360. Those 2 machines are fantastic consoles & are fully capable of keeping up with most PC's of today. It's time barriers were broken & console gamers got to experience head tracking in games. I'd be lost without it where my aircraft & motorsport sims are concerned.

[winny]

I'm not saying that headtracking is a bad thing. It is just a way for you to move the camera with your head though. That's all.

I would like to try it because it looks pretty good, but to argue that it isn't counterintuitive is pointless because however you dress it up, in real life, if I want to look left I don't turn my head to the left and continue to look straightforwards with my eyes. Which is what you have to do with current headtracking.

I was just suggesting that in order for it to be true headtracking you would need to be wearing the screen on your head like a Virtual Reality headset.

I've just seen a VR headset that works with PS3 for £200..(it's a bit crappy) Give it a couple of years and I bet you see someone release something that incorporates IR tracking and VR headsets. Now that I would definately buy.

[InfiniteStates]

Cool, now I get it, thanks for making and posting the video. It's pretty much as I envisaged it. I just didn't occur to me it would amplify the rotation so it's not 1:1. That makes sense, but does it have low level dampening so that it's not hyper-sensitive in the "still" region? I guess it must have because it doesn't appear jittery in the video...

...it would require the screen to be attached to your head...

In fact I'm surprised that no-one has come out with a system that does this..
Many people have done this, but it requires a screen or screens really close to your eyes. The other advantage with this is you can have independent screens for each eye, which also yields true 3D vision (by rendering a scene from two slightly different camera angles). The downside, however, and the reason why none of them have made it to market yet, is that you can't play for very long without feeling sick...

[winny]

The downside, however, and the reason why none of them have made it to market yet, is that you can't play for very long without feeling sick...

Ah.. vomitting is a bad thing when playing video games.

[Houndstone Hawk]

Ah.. vomitting is a bad thing when playing video games.

Lol. Brilliant way to train for the Apache at an early age, just have fun, at home, playing on winny's patented VR_BOP :grin:

[winny]

Lol. Brilliant way to train for the Apache at an early age, just have fun, at home, playing on winny's patented VR_BOP :grin:

Got it.. I'll just include an oxygen mask that doubles as a sick recepticle, connected to a bucket. I'm gonna be rich!

[the_somme]

Very interesting discussion here. The Track IR thing looks really neat and I really hope that the consoles get something like this in the near future. Would make a ton of difference playing games where head movement is important ie. fps games, racing games and flying games.

[PaulDPearl]

All they really need to do is sell reflectors that you can put somewhere. The TrackIR has a device that attaches it's reflectors to a baseball hat. I'm sure Sony can do something like this, sell them for $20 and pocket $19.99..

The eye may be able to track basic head motions but you need precise control for Flight Simulation... I'm pretty sure any camera can be used, you just need the software that can take the data and figure out what to do with it. Since the PS Eye is already out there and ready to go with the PS3, it seems like a good one to use, rather than creating another camera device that may have its own problems and place on the mantle next to all our other stuff...

[PaulDPearl]

My logic is sound. My explaination may be a little confused...

What I'm saying is that if you turn your head right to "look" right in game, your eyes will then be looking to your left to be able to see the screen.

You only need to move your head slightly, and it's quite intuitive when you do it. Your eye stays in place because the brain is just setup to work that way, even though you're "looking left" you're not thinking about your eyes, you're thinking about where you want to look in game, which is "right" and to look right you move your head right. (the only way to really show someone is to sit them down and have them try it)


The TrackIR system uses reflectors that reside on the rim of a baseball hat. 2 in front, one in back (in the middle).

To look all the way behind me in FSX and other Flight Simulator games, I simply turn my head about 10, maybe 15 degrees... It even tracks the rotation of your head, which adds an extra feel of realism to the effect, and that is something you can't do with hat switches or the PS3 controller... You can also use it to zoom in, without actually getting close to the monitor, just lean forward a bit and it will zoom in.

The only drawback with them is when you move to an angle where the camera cannot track you, it generally gives you an undesirable viewpoint... but just set it up right and that isn't a problem. (it also usually requires low lighting).

[InfiniteStates]

The eye may be able to track basic head motions but you need precise control for Flight Simulation...
Check out that E3 video in the OP...it's 1:1 tracking, and I believe he mentioned at the "sub-millimeter" level ;)

[PaulDPearl]

I did watch the video - what they're doing is 1000 times more complex than they need for the head tracking portion. It just proves that the eye is capable, but any webcam would be. The trick is in what it's tracking.

There is face tracking software that you may get with your Logitich Camera, but it's not precise enough to do what we need for head tracking in a simulator enviroment (racing, flying, etc...).

the other key would be to make the software compatable with it. Can you imagine how real Grand Turismo would be if you not only had the steering wheel and pedals, but also a head tracking feature that puts you behind the wheel, allowing you to use your actual head to look left and right?

Trust me, I've used this with the PC and it transforms your simulator GAME into a real SIMULATOR... Minus the Multi Million dollar price tag and some hydrolics... (though the force feedback feature inhances the "feel").

[Houndstone Hawk]

I did watch the video - what they're doing is 1000 times more complex than they need for the head tracking portion. It just proves that the eye is capable, but any webcam would be. The trick is in what it's tracking.

There is face tracking software that you may get with your Logitich Camera, but it's not precise enough to do what we need for head tracking in a simulator enviroment (racing, flying, etc...).

the other key would be to make the software compatable with it. Can you imagine how real Grand Turismo would be if you not only had the steering wheel and pedals, but also a head tracking feature that puts you behind the wheel, allowing you to use your actual head to look left and right?

Trust me, I've used this with the PC and it transforms your simulator GAME into a real SIMULATOR... Minus the Multi Million dollar price tag and some hydrolics... (though the force feedback feature inhances the "feel").

+1

I couldn't do without headtracking software now. Even the titles like Op Flashpoint Dragon Rising & DIRT 2 on PC are so much more involving & more immersive. Stupidly, head tracking with something like Track IR is the ONLY way you can currently look left & right in any vehicle in OFDR. Bring it to console, let's have this experience enjoyed by more!!!

[Houndstone Hawk]

Here's a short 3-lap example from a single race at Donington Park, taken from the surprisingly realistic experiences of Need for Speed SHIFT.

Not only does it add so much more realism to the in-car experience; it also comes in very handy in giving a quick glance to the left or right during overtaking, whereby, for some reason, it doesn't seem to put you off so much as it does when using the look around on the right thumb stick.

It's great fun to be able to 'lean' right over to the passenger side or put your head into a corner etc. :grin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-KST6syLfk

For those of you with NFS Shift on PC, this handy little plugin that was used to make this video; is called Need for Speed Shift Camera Control v1.1 & was made by Racer_S. It enables customization of camera properties within game & also provides full Track IR support. It can be downloaded here: http://tocaedit.com

[Houndstone Hawk]

Here's an FSX vid I did sometime last year to showcase the fantastic Hawk package from Skysim with Track IR 5.0.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvQawbQISCc

RNAS Yeovilton is my local air station; being about 3 miles away. Some of you have probably been to the RNAS Yeovilton Airday I expect. It's a great station but very quiet now since we lost the 801 Sea Harriers a few years ago. The FRADU Hawks are a local, aswell as Jet Streams, Grob Tutors & any amount of rotorary wings including Lynx, SeaKing & Merlin.

It's also the home of the Royal Navy Historic Collection & we do frequently see the Sea Fury, Sea Hawk & Seafire in the air. :grin:

[AV 1611]

Anton has already stated this is one of the things they are looking at doing with the sequal for BOP. GT will be getting this as well.
Using the PS eye. Hopefully then can implement this. And there is videos on Youtube showing demos of the PS Eye used for head tracking.

Do we know for a fact "HEAD TRACKING" will be based of the PS EYE - or will Head Tracking be a totally new gadget? Just debating if I should invest in the PS EYE now/ wait?

[winny]

Do we know for a fact "HEAD TRACKING" will be based of the PS EYE - or will Head Tracking be a totally new gadget? Just debating if I should invest in the PS EYE now/ wait?

Yes.. there's loads on the net about it. Also there's an article in The New Scientist magazine this week about Natal (full body tracking) for the xbox where they mention that Sony are working on a similar idea and that will use the PS3 Eye.

An IR sensor is basically a camera anyway and most digital cameras can "see" IR.. (look through your camera phone at any of your TV remotes and you can see the LED flashing) So it makes sense to use a camera anyway.

[P-51]

Yes.. there's loads on the net about it. Also there's an article in The New Scientist magazine this week about Natal (full body tracking) for the xbox where they mention that Sony are working on a similar idea and that will use the PS3 Eye.

An IR sensor is basically a camera anyway and most digital cameras can "see" IR.. (look through your camera phone at any of your TV remotes and you can see the LED flashing) So it makes sense to use a camera anyway.

Wow! Infra red FTW!!! (yup i videod my remote lol)

[winny]

Wow! Infra red FTW!!! (yup i videod my remote lol)

It's a good way to see if you need a new remote or just batteries..;)

[Robotic Pope]

It's a good way to see if you need a new remote or just batteries..;)

huh?? :grin:. That wouldn't work.

[winny]

huh?? :grin:. That wouldn't work.

Oh thanks for pointing that out... For all the pedants out there.. It's a good way to see if your remote is working or not.

Is that better?

[AV 1611]

Ok then, let's go get it! :)

[Spitfire23]

Here's an FSX vid I did sometime last year to showcase the fantastic Hawk package from Skysim with Track IR 5.0.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvQawbQISCc

RNAS Yeovilton is my local air station; being about 3 miles away. Some of you have probably been to the RNAS Yeovilton Airday I expect. It's a great station but very quiet now since we lost the 801 Sea Harriers a few years ago. The FRADU Hawks are a local, aswell as Jet Streams, Grob Tutors & any amount of rotorary wings including Lynx, SeaKing & Merlin.

It's also the home of the Royal Navy Historic Collection & we do frequently see the Sea Fury, Sea Hawk & Seafire in the air. :grin:

Fantastic Vid, might just have to hunt that hawk package down.

RNAS Yeovilton is next to the Fleet Air Arm museum is it not? Ive been there, Fantastic place jam packed full of goodies, I live nowhere near it mind but definately a worthy place to visit when im on my hols

[InfiniteStates]

Do we know for a fact "HEAD TRACKING" will be based of the PS EYE - or will Head Tracking be a totally new gadget? Just debating if I should invest in the PS EYE now/ wait?
If you check out the video in the OP, Sony are also developing a "wand" type device that the camera can track very accurately. So if head tracking doesn't go off facial features alone, there could certainly be some dedicated head gear derived from the wand...

But to answer your question, I would wait to get a camera... The wand may come with one. Or the whole thing may be crap or never appear. You never know.

[AV 1611]

If you check out the video in the OP, Sony are also developing a "wand" type device that the camera can track very accurately. So if head tracking doesn't go off facial features alone, there could certainly be some dedicated head gear derived from the wand...

But to answer your question, I would wait to get a camera... The wand may come with one. Or the whole thing may be crap or never appear. You never know.

Thank you sir, I will certainly heed your advice. :)