Getting Past The Arcade Mindset...

[trueshotcaller]

Edal is setting up a great campaign, I'll be glad when it's here.

In the meantime, does anyone have thoughts on how to get more sim style gameplay in the sim and realistic modes?

From what I'm seeing, people are doing EXACTLY the same things in these modes as in Arcade - especially the dogfights - let's all descend into a swirling furball and see who can turn the fastest. Energy fighting, forget it. Boom and Zoom? Whatever. Advanced tactics seem rare - it's always 'get 'em as fast as they spawn, crash, come back, do over and over. This gets old to me.

I'm thinking about creating more games that make you wait for much longer than 5 seconds before you respawn. What's the max? We need something to force pilots to value their lives and wings more... they may actually resort to using real tactics to stay alive and be selective about when to engage.

I just want the chance to try to learn and actually use all the cool, advanced maneuvers I read about and see on the cool dogfighting shows. Real pilots just didn't go willy nilly into the middle of a turning fight - and when they did, boy did they pay dearly for their folly. I'd like to see at least a few online battles with this great sim come closer to that.

Or is this just asking too much?

[MACADEMIC]

Very good point. I'd like to see more realism too, what if you'd just have one life to live and to lose? However the new patch does not seem to account for that much. You respawn closer to the action than before, above and more visible, while (at least for me) it has become harder to identify a bogey close to the ground. This results in getting engaged from the ground immediately, no chance to observe first and make tactical choices. Perhaps we need a patch from the patch.

[Rhah]

Edal is setting up a great campaign, I'll be glad when it's here.

In the meantime, does anyone have thoughts on how to get more sim style gameplay in the sim and realistic modes?

From what I'm seeing, people are doing EXACTLY the same things in these modes as in Arcade - especially the dogfights - let's all descend into a swirling furball and see who can turn the fastest. Energy fighting, forget it. Boom and Zoom? Whatever. Advanced tactics seem rare - it's always 'get 'em as fast as they spawn, crash, come back, do over and over. This gets old to me.

I'm thinking about creating more games that make you wait for much longer than 5 seconds before you respawn. What's the max? We need something to force pilots to value their lives and wings more... they may actually resort to using real tactics to stay alive and be selective about when to engage.

I just want the chance to try to learn and actually use all the cool, advanced maneuvers I read about and see on the cool dogfighting shows. Real pilots just didn't go willy nilly into the middle of a turning fight - and when they did, boy did they pay dearly for their folly. I'd like to see at least a few online battles with this great sim come closer to that.

Or is this just asking too much?

I think a lot of it is down to a lack of teamwork. People flying the TnB planes will naturally choose to get into a TnB dogfight (myself included). With the new campaign that Edal86 is cooking up, I reckon that tactics will play a massive role.... Imagine 6 Tnb fighters supported by a couple of ZnB pilots, flying high and swooping in like vultures. I guess it really depends on how organised each team is though.

Anyway, good idea about the respawn time.

[STINGERSIX78]

well, after the patch the zoom and boom tacticts gots more fun and effective (stats). because u get the kill, when u damaged the enemy plane and its goes down after a while.
before the patch comes out, u have with znb only a low death rate. now u can also get a high kill rate.
and this makes sense.
i didn't like the train of death, which u can often see in the sky.
roundnroundnround, still they get wuzzy in the brain. no one would open this "formation", because he is certainly death then.
i favourites the sneaky kill.
get a lot of speed, pick a careless bird from this train, make one turn, shoot a couples of bullets in his wings and get a way as fast as u come. daisy-cutter-style on very low level.
btw the only sure tactic to defeat the spits and hurris with the bf109 series. imo

excuse my bad english ^^

[InfiniteStates]

I think 15 seconds is the maximum respawn time.

But how are you supposed to BnZ effectively in a mixed match...? I still can't ID friend from foe until I'm really close, depending on the orientation to the sun. So unless it's obvious from the map who is chasing who, I have no choice to engage in the turn fight.

And when trying to fly the FWs, this just results in a very unenjoyable game.

[STINGERSIX78]

i look often on the map. then i spot to the horizon. if the second one from the left an enemy (example), i try to fix him with my eyes. works often but not every time. if i missed the target, i go for an other zoom and boom attempt.

[Rhah]

I think 15 seconds is the maximum respawn time.

But how are you supposed to BnZ effectively in a mixed match...? I still can't ID friend from foe until I'm really close, depending on the orientation to the sun. So unless it's obvious from the map who is chasing who, I have no choice to engage in the turn fight.

And when trying to fly the FWs, this just results in a very unenjoyable game.

I'm not really a BnZ'er, but I can see how this would be a problem. Its a shame that we can't lock teams to play as Allies or Axis, as that would really help with ID'ing targets. Luckily this will be the case in the Battle for Europe campaign.

Having the zoom function again on a decent control layout might help as well..

[InfiniteStates]

Having the zoom function again on a decent control layout might help as well..
I'm not sure - for me its more dependent on how they are oriented to the sun. In the right situation I can tell if they're red or blue from quite a way away, but usually the top of the wing is just dark and I generally get killed as I close in to make sure I'm not about to go blue on blue. Although that still happens occasionally :(

[winny]

Last week I'd have probably agreed with you, Sim games seemed to end up with everyone about 2 inches off the ground... But, recently as more people are playing this seems to be happening less. I had a couple of good games last night with 4v4 TB and CTA. Just the fact that there are more players means that you can sneak off and try to come in with a bit of speed, fire off a few and get out again.

I agree with Infinate states about the whole target recognition. This is why I'm looking forwards to the team tourney because it'll just be a case of if it's German or Russian or whatever... kill it!. Which will also add to the realism. It gets very confusing trying to work out which of the 3 spitfires you're following is the bad guy.

Someone should arrange some casual German vs Russian (or whatever the mix) games coz that would be much easier!

[Rhah]

Last week I'd have probably agreed with you, Sim games seemed to end up with everyone about 2 inches off the ground... But, recently as more people are playing this seems to be happening less. I had a couple of good games last night with 4v4 TB and CTA. Just the fact that there are more players means that you can sneak off and try to come in with a bit of speed, fire off a few and get out again.

I agree with Infinate states about the whole target recognition. This is why I'm looking forwards to the team tourney because it'll just be a case of if it's German or Russian or whatever... kill it!. Which will also add to the realism. It gets very confusing trying to work out which of the 3 spitfires you're following is the bad guy.

Someone should arrange some casual German vs Russian (or whatever the mix) games coz that would be much easier!

We managed to arrange a small Battle of Britain match just after the game was released, and it was pretty fun. The problem is the timezones, as there community is evenly split between Europe and US, and the sim community is the same. If you fancy organising something though, count me it.

[biophil12]

Making it where each crash (Getting shot down not included) adds 5 seconds or more to respawn time might help. I can't relate to the problems seeing who is Friend and who is Foe on sim difficulty (I can't even get past the Sim tut. mission :(), but making all Team members have the green Indicators (like in Arcade and Realistic) would definetly help.

[The M00ps]

But how are you supposed to BnZ effectively in a mixed match...? I still can't ID friend from foe until I'm really close, depending on the orientation to the sun. So unless it's obvious from the map who is chasing who, I have no choice to engage in the turn fight.

And when trying to fly the FWs, this just results in a very unenjoyable game.

Hmmm, I'm lovin' it. This is more like real life, and should encourage more communication and teamwork. Rambo flying solo in his Spit won't be able to dominate any more. You'll need a lead to id the target and take the shot, and a wingman to cover his ass whilst he does so.

[durangodoug]

Thats why I wished this game had coop. The enemy AI doesn't do the turn fight. And since I play a lot more single player than multiplayer, I always have to remember that people fly differently from the computer. But thats why I also like Strike and CTA over dogfight/team dogfight. For the most part, people tend to go after the objective instead of just kills.