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View Full Version : King's Bounty, Homm5 Love CHild


Zechnophobe
12-04-2009, 03:56 AM
While I do absolutely adore King's Bounty, there were still some concepts from Heros5 that I think were done better. I also have some opinions on the way the game in general works that I'd love to see changed. Here goes.

1) HOMM5 has a fluid turn system, instead of a fixed one. That means that units with higher initiative actually get to perform more actions than those with lower initiative. Your Hero was the same, in that he'd get an action every certain amount of time, and could always at least ride out and do a little damage. This was a really nice system that allowed for a lot of interesting balance.

2) As much as I like King's Bounty, I am getting a little tired of using the same units in most games, because other ones just aren't available. You always start in a human city, with human troops, and a few snakes, nearby to recruit. You never have any real dynamic choices early on in troop composition. Inquisitors, bowmen, king snakes... this list sounding familiar to anyone yet? Instead of starting in the same position in each game, and have a 'set' route through the game, I think it would be much more interesting if it varied.

3) I think reinforcement slots is a good idea, but let's take it a step further. Instead of having a fixed limit to the number of troops you can recruit and have in your army, instead allow the player to buy stacks of any size, but when combat starts only the amount the leadership allows for will actually enter combat. You can keep stocked on troops for as long as you want, without having to make boring trips back to the remote locations you found Evil Beholders, and you also don't have to micromanage your stacks as much when you level up or find leadership flags!

4) Tavern's are cool in this game, in that they tend to have an interesting assortment of troops. But wouldn't it be even cooler if they would restock every now and then? You go check the tavern and find it has a good number of some rare troop, if 3) has been done, you could buy an ample number of them now. Later on, people move, travellers from distant lands come, and now different mercenaries are there for hire. Adds more consistent excitement over these types of buildings.

5) You ever try out a big stack of some unit, only to find out it wasn't as good as you thought? It would be nice if you could do... SOMETHING with troops that you didn't want anymore, to recoup the losses. Sell into slavery, sacrifice to a demon god, whatever.

6) Another cool thing that was done in Homm5 (And other Homm games) is the existence of units of variable size. King's Bounty has a lovely strategic feel already due to the complex pathing and placement of troops, and I think units that are fundamentally larger than others would add a cool new layer to it, that is elegant and easy to understand. It would also be nice to see 'big' units like a black dragon take up more space than 'little' ones like a dragonfly or fairy.

7) Another nice Hero's line effect is building buildings in towns that give your hero's interesting static bonus'. For instance, necromancer's gaining increased necromatic power. I'd like to see more map objects that give things that are interesting, and not just 'rage/mana/stats' . Most interesting rewards end up being items that compete for space. Why not Titles that give us other interesting bonus'?

8) Lastly, I'd like to see SOME kind of 'fast action' gameplay option. This I draw more from games like Spectromancer, where you can easily pick up and play. Imagine a setting where you get a random hero and army, and face off against a different random hero and army. Etherlords 2 also did this nicely. So you don't have to sit down and play the entire epic campaign if you get a hankering for a little KB.

Direwolf
12-04-2009, 04:33 AM
Zechno,

Some really good thoughts there...i really didn't see anything that i wouldn't endorse. Thanks for taking the time to capture your thoughts.

cheers,
DW

lauvhk
12-04-2009, 06:33 AM
Nice idea.

Quick thought on 7. I remember back in Might & Magic (4&5, 7), you party can own a castle. I can't remember what you can actually do with your castle back then but it can nicely adapt to the HOMM style gameplay. You may win the castle by contest or by achieving nobility.

Mandea
12-04-2009, 06:41 AM
as a matter of face I love KB much more than HOMM, even with its shortcomings. if homm6 doesn't take some ideas from KB, it won't be a great game :D

Elwin
12-04-2009, 07:09 AM
I completly do not agree with point 2 at all ... KB is just that different that you can get any unit early in game with no fighiting ...

Zechnophobe
12-04-2009, 07:47 AM
I completly do not agree with point 2 at all ... KB is just that different that you can get any unit early in game with no fighiting ...

It is maybe true that you can do that in AP, but in TL you actually had to fight fights to open up new areas. And doing this in AP where you... basically exploit past big fights to open up new lands doesn't really count. If you don't map kite, how many units can you really get? When are you going to get a demon army, or a lizard one? Even an Elf one?

Elwin
12-04-2009, 07:49 AM
Its not exploiting and its posssible. ANd i love AP for that

DGDobrev
12-04-2009, 09:15 AM
I really like all of the suggestions, especially the one the one about troop composition and alignment. It gets pretty boring to start with the stame troop composition, and be constantly on the lookout for Cyclops, Trolls and Demonologists in the early game. The idea for the taverns is also really good.

Still, I am worried that if KB takes on way too many "qualities" of HOMM, it will look more like a plagiarized game. I am confident that this is what the developers were trying to avoid.

lauvhk
12-04-2009, 09:39 AM
There is one major difference that separates HOMM and KB. HOMM AI operates at 2 levels - the map/kingdom and the battlefield while KB AI mainly focuses on the battlefield. You could argue that KB AI also operates on the map but it is mainly with wandering enemies/heroes having a patrol route/ alert radius.

As long as the developer does not bring another level of AI into KB, I think it will remain sufficiently different as opposed to HOMM.

Zechnophobe
12-04-2009, 04:42 PM
I think the only real copy cat would be 'big units'. Games using a continuum to determine battle order is not that uncommon by far, and having locations you can capture to get permanent bonus' is also fairly status quo for any role playing game.

Also, Lauvhk is very correct that there are a few fundamental differences between KB and HOMM.. mainly that one is a turn based game with strategic levels of management, and the other is a role playing game with tactical combat.

Newbie1234
12-05-2009, 04:00 AM
1) A matter of taste. I personally prefer the fixed KB system, as we would need a bar showing the turns with the HoMM5 system and it gets confusing. That system works well for an RPG like Final Fantasy, but not HoMM-style fights in my opinion.

I wouldn't mind the Hero getting in a bit more on the action though.

2) I definitely agree on this. More starting options and viable troops would be great.

3) I really like this idea. It's annoying how we constantly have to go back to the outskirts to restock.

4) Great idea.

5) Not really necessary, but not a bad addition.

6) I'm pretty sure that the reason for this is that units of variable size don't work very well on a 3d Hex grid. Boss monsters are an exception obviously.

HoMM3 had units of 2 hexes, but all fights were horizontal in nature. With 3D battlegrounds, it could get confusing.

It works in HoMM5 because they use square grids, but that has its own problems.

7, 8) Good suggestions

rancor26
12-05-2009, 05:58 AM
I would love to see mode called something like "Custom Battle" where you could make your army from all units available with many options (money available to recruit units, AI difficulty, class etc.) and then you could choose the opponents army and go straight to the fight ;)

lauvhk
12-05-2009, 06:13 AM
About 1. The morale between HOMM and KB is quite different. In KB the morale simply affects your unit stats. I cannot remember exactly what it is in HOMM5 but it definitely affects unit initiative. When a unit is motivated with high morale, it will gain initiative so that it can act again sooner than it supposed to be. Even prior to HOMM5, morale acts in the way that the unit either receives an instant second move for high morale or completely loses its turn due to bad morale.

So in order to incorporate such element, it will require a significant rework of KB combat mechanics. I am not so sure if it worths the effort.

Zechnophobe
12-05-2009, 06:57 AM
Well, I wouldn't want to pick up the HOMM5 morale for any reason, the KB one is really very solid and interesting. JUst like the idea that you can balance units by how often they go, and not just how strong they are in the raw.

Zehnvhex
12-06-2009, 02:59 AM
I'm not a particular fan of ATB. While it allows for another level of complexity, it's also bulky to say the least. Initiative is fairly easy to balance around and it's an age old concept that simply just works in turn based games.

I agree on reserve slots though, 100%. I feel it's lame I have to cheese the sacrifice spell or waste time going all over to get new troops every time I level. Plus there are some fights where I'd like to use different types of troops and having to find a castle to temporarily store my troops is annoying.

Elias_Maluco
12-09-2009, 07:09 PM
Cant disagree on any of your suggestions, actually some of then have already crossed my mind too.

But the 2 things about HOMM that I would love the most to see implemented on KB are random maps and multi-player. The campaigns are awesome and actually much better than the HOMM campaings, but once is over you can only replay it again and again.

I would love to see an alternative style of play, open-ended and and with random generated maps. You choose a class, you start at a castle on a random map with some random objective, something simple like that. It would really add to the replay value.

And multi-player. MP is what keeps me playing HOMM, and is awesome. Fighting the AI can never be as chalenging than playing someone with an actual brain. Even if is just a duel-like MP: each player starts at an X level, with an X amount of gold to expend on troops and spells and some runes to spend on skills.

markgil
12-11-2009, 12:03 AM
i don't know if there will be another KB game after AP (a 3rd game making a trilogy would be great!) but hopefully Heroes 6 will make up for the shortcomings of H4 & H5.