Red Dragons vs. Emerald Green

[blueshrike]

Currently using Emerald and love them, however I've decided I want to try Red - they would still get buffs and seem like their attack skills and health might be a good tradeoff for the mana leach and pull/no-retaliation ability of the Green.

The problem is that I'm suddenly finding lots of greens on Elon but no reds. I believe I've opened up all islands too but haven't been down in all dungeons yet - any place where Reds usually are found?

Also, what are your thoughts on Green vs. Red?

[arcainic]

Currently using Emerald and love them, however I've decided I want to try Red - they would still get buffs and seem like their attack skills and health might be a good tradeoff for the mana leach and pull/no-retaliation ability of the Green.

The problem is that I'm suddenly finding lots of greens on Elon but no reds. I believe I've opened up all islands too but haven't been down in all dungeons yet - any place where Reds usually are found?

Also, what are your thoughts on Green vs. Red?

i'm a fan of the reds. I didn't know green has mana leech though.

[Metathron]

I loved greens in The Legend, but this time around I'm just crazy about the red ones (also have the blacks, but I prefer red because of their ability). I'm almost done with my first game, and I found them in only one place, and that is on Elon. Their dwelling was in the underground, just to the left of where you arrive by boat.

Reds rock! :grin:

[DGDobrev]

For me, it depends on the char. Warrior and Paladin - reds. Mage - green. A mage cannot deprive him/herself from extra mana in combat.

[Elwin]

Well loved emeralds in Legend now i dont used them but reds can have Draconix item (-20% LD) so u can get more of them.

[Tibster]

I like dragons , but i think they are verry ineficient : power/leadership ratio.
So i prefer the greens for this reason.
Not that i dont dream of a all dragon army ...

[Ryastar]

reds rock! :grin:

*gasp* communist!!!!!

[blueshrike]

I loved greens in The Legend, but this time around I'm just crazy about the red ones (also have the blacks, but I prefer red because of their ability). I'm almost done with my first game, and I found them in only one place, and that is on Elon. Their dwelling was in the underground, just to the left of where you arrive by boat.

Reds rock! :grin:

Thanks all - yep, tried that cave and it just had more blacks and greens.... everywhere I look it's Black. Sometimes Bone and on Elon, lots of Green (good at least).

So I might switch to Tirexes - when I put them in with the dragons, they didn't like it... so I didn't like it either :)

[Zechnophobe]

There is a dragon city in Montero right? When you arrive via the bridge, their is a raising platform, and then a moving platform that winds over to a little dragon outpost thing. Tough fight, but It may have reds.

[Infiltrator]

There is a dragon city in Montero right? When you arrive via the bridge, their is a raising platform, and then a moving platform that winds over to a little dragon outpost thing. Tough fight, but It may have reds.

Easier to just sneak around Nameless/Shattera and pick up the free red dragon eggs laying around :P

[The Rider]

I like dragons , but i think they are verry ineficient : power/leadership ratio.
So i prefer the greens for this reason.
Not that i dont dream of a all dragon army ...
Actually the red dragons are the most efficient of the dragons. I checked all of them vs. a single stack of druids. Black dragons do worst damage, than emerald and the red dragons win the contest :)

[Infiltrator]

Actually the red dragons are the most efficient of the dragons. I checked all of them vs. a single stack of druids. Black dragons do worst damage, than emerald and the red dragons win the contest :)

And you consider that test to be valid? I'd like to smoke whatever you're on man.

Here's how fundamentally flawed your testing is:

1. What leadership was chosen? 1900 (emerald) vs 2000 (red) vs 2500 (black). If you want a perfect balance when it comes to raw strength per stack, it has to be a number which is dividable by all of the above, OR, a 10k leadership - 5x reds vs 4xblack vs 5x(emeralds+5.2% damage to make up for the leadership difference between the red dragons)

2. Resistances to damage and spells. Obviously it's not all in being able to dish out, but take damage. Emeralds have the weakest physical resistance, followed by red and blacks have the highest. Emeralds have 50% fire resist whereas Red and Black are immune. Finally, both Emerald and Red have 30% magic resist whereas Blacks are immune to magic.

This has many different results in different circumstances. You can stoneskin your red dragons and they'll be a fortress, but at the same time still vulnerable to debuffs and nukes. Black Dragons have the highest natural physical resistance, can't take any buffs, but at the same time you can rest sure no one is going to nuke your black dragon to oblivion or debuff him. Remember that debuffs now LOWER morale so a debuffed red/emerald dragon is SIGNIFICANTLY weaker.

Finally, special abilities. This is probably the place where you totally lose any real sense of balance, because the abilities are all good or bad given the right circumstance (and by no means single

3. Special abilities. These are a HUGE factor. In fact it probably makes any kind of comparisons redundant. Emerald Dragons are great for mana-hungry mages or others who like to cast a lot of spells, and their no-retilation grab is welcome, Red Dragon's flame stream is very useful given the correct positioning, and he can do it from a safe distance. The black dragon on the other hand can burn several enemies on very erratic patterns and suffer no retaliation from any of them, while being able to use it both offensively and while retreating. Not to mention he gives a huge boost to your army by lowering the enemies' initiative.

All of those abilities are very useful but situational given the circumstance. Sometimes you have Emeralds and you wish you had blacks, and sometimes you had reds and you wish you could squeeze mana out. In the end, it's too cumbersome to switch dragons based on the fight, so the best thing to do is plan your hero build around what, and if yes, which one of the dragons will best compliment Amelie and her other creatures.

[blueshrike]

In the end...the best thing to do is plan your hero build around what, and if yes, which one of the dragons will best compliment Amelie and her other creatures.

That's the sign of good design, where any of them aren't necessarily the best. So rather than decide, I'll go with Tirexes :). j/k

[Tianx]

I like Red the most because ultimately you can use your pet dragon to squeeze some mana out. Green just doesn't have enough HP to withstand the hits. I think Tirexes can be a good unit but the problem with that is you get them WAY too late to really be much of use in the game. Wish they had these lizard units earlier in the game though.

[DGDobrev]

They can be, if you learn to sneak & steal maps. In addition to that, Tirexes are the perfect sacrificial lambs. They can eat up a corpse every 3 turns (as well as when they kill), which means every 3 turn you get free troops through sacrifice.

[Elwin]

Exactly ... i started game and i went straight for reha :p lvl 20 warior 4 tirexes owns :p

[Metathron]

*gasp* communist!!!!!

I meant the ummm Red Sox.

Wait, what? :-P

Re: Dragon city in Montero. I haven't tackled it still, an all dragon army is something I'm not too fond of fighting. And there are a lot of them even on normal! :eek:

[Zechnophobe]

Red Dragons are the best. They do better damage per leadership than black dragons, and by far more than greens, just on their basic attack, but can hit two squares. They have better resistences than greens.

The line of Flame ability is often a 2 or three hit ability without retaliation compared to the Capture ability for greens that only hits one with no retaliation. Mana source is the only obvious advantage of greens, and while it is kinda cool, the mana generation from it isn't very impressive compared to most other ways for a mage to get mana (Transmute, concentration, etc etc).

[Metathron]

The line of Flame ability is often a 2 or three hit ability without retaliation

And will often burn targets to boot!

[Saridu]

Exactly ... i started game and i went straight for reha :p lvl 20 warior 4 tirexes owns :p

Heh did the same thing, my paladin was lv24 with tirexes (tons of them on Reha) I found the +2 morale lizardmen bracelet (+1 from max persuasion) max morale Tirexes rock! :grin:

On subject, it would be nice to find a easy to get and reliable source of red dragons, with the new burning rules I think they could be quite nasty. For me, Green dragons have lost that edge, they're easy to get (I think the cave in Elon always stocks them?) but there are better ways of recovering mana in AP (as somebody mentioned, Transmute, mana accel) so that only leaves their retal skill, which is good but I would rather have Tirexes roar (which is cute, hey gives them a ranged ability first turn) and their ability to recover their health on kill, very nice!

[The Rider]

And you consider that test to be valid? I'd like to smoke whatever you're on man.

Here's how fundamentally flawed your testing is:

1. What leadership was chosen? 1900 (emerald) vs 2000 (red) vs 2500 (black). If you want a perfect balance when it comes to raw strength per stack, it has to be a number which is dividable by all of the above, OR, a 10k leadership - 5x reds vs 4xblack vs 5x(emeralds+5.2% damage to make up for the leadership difference between the red dragons)

2. Resistances to damage and spells. Obviously it's not all in being able to dish out, but take damage. Emeralds have the weakest physical resistance, followed by red and blacks have the highest. Emeralds have 50% fire resist whereas Red and Black are immune. Finally, both Emerald and Red have 30% magic resist whereas Blacks are immune to magic.

This has many different results in different circumstances. You can stoneskin your red dragons and they'll be a fortress, but at the same time still vulnerable to debuffs and nukes. Black Dragons have the highest natural physical resistance, can't take any buffs, but at the same time you can rest sure no one is going to nuke your black dragon to oblivion or debuff him. Remember that debuffs now LOWER morale so a debuffed red/emerald dragon is SIGNIFICANTLY weaker.

Finally, special abilities. This is probably the place where you totally lose any real sense of balance, because the abilities are all good or bad given the right circumstance (and by no means single

3. Special abilities. These are a HUGE factor. In fact it probably makes any kind of comparisons redundant. Emerald Dragons are great for mana-hungry mages or others who like to cast a lot of spells, and their no-retilation grab is welcome, Red Dragon's flame stream is very useful given the correct positioning, and he can do it from a safe distance. The black dragon on the other hand can burn several enemies on very erratic patterns and suffer no retaliation from any of them, while being able to use it both offensively and while retreating. Not to mention he gives a huge boost to your army by lowering the enemies' initiative.

All of those abilities are very useful but situational given the circumstance. Sometimes you have Emeralds and you wish you had blacks, and sometimes you had reds and you wish you could squeeze mana out. In the end, it's too cumbersome to switch dragons based on the fight, so the best thing to do is plan your hero build around what, and if yes, which one of the dragons will best compliment Amelie and her other creatures.
@Infiltrator,
maybe I wasn't clear enough, I did the test with my mage at the end of the game, 54 level, 12 attack, 22 defence, 34, 345 leadership.
I got 13 black dragons and 17 red dragons.
The Black Dragons got 102 attack and 112 defence, 70% critical with the dagger of judgment and other artifacts, the red dragons are with 94 attack and 104 defence, both +1 morale.
Against a stack of druids (0% phisical, 0% fire, 0% poison, 25% magic resistance), no bufs:
The Black Dragons do 5070 max damage
The Red Dragons do 6120 max damage
(other stacks do:
Paladins 7703 damage, inquisitors 3429, cavaliers 6381 max damage without charge, all with the same leadership, no artifacts to lower the leadership cost of the troops).
I havent noted the damage of the 19 emerald dragons, but it was inbetween the damage of red and black.
One other thing, between red and black, I always take red dragons, more damage (yes, I consider the leadership cost always), almost the same abilities, but they are useless against demons because of the fire breath, in the last battle (Baal) I took green dragons (they do phisical damage and the extra mana was very good addition).

[Infiltrator]

I totally understood what you said and I'm still saying that racking up a bunch of units and seeing who gets most damage against a druid stack is not the cornerstone of unit balance.

[Metathron]

I can now confirm that red dragons are indeed on offer in the dragon lair in Montero, along with blacks and greens. Not sure if this is always the case in every game, but I suspect it is since the lair is heavily guarded.

[Harakiri]

I can now confirm that red dragons are indeed on offer in the dragon lair in Montero, along with blacks and greens. Not sure if this is always the case in every game, but I suspect it is since the lair is heavily guarded.


mh? there is a direct entrance to the dragons at the elf isle - you dont have todo any fighting at all - right when you get there - first cave, its already there red, black and green eggs

[Metathron]

mh? there is a direct entrance to the dragons at the elf isle - you dont have todo any fighting at all - right when you get there - first cave, its already there red, black and green eggs

People have reported different dragons on offer there. You may have got all three, I got just black and red, others did not get red at all (arguably the best variety)...

[Zhuangzi]

I tend to think that Reds are the best overall. Lower leadership, better special ability, and you can buff/heal/resurrect them (with Inquisitors). Blacks are a pain because if you lose one, it's gone.

[Infiltrator]

Meh, I'm using blacks. It's hard to get one killed, unless they are alone in the enemy lines. I use the demonologist's life drain on my other units since they are most often the targets.

Also, when your blacks eat up a retaliation of thousands of fire/magical based units as a two-digit number, you just have to feel good about it.

Having the highest base resistances and att/def, as well as being impervious to all spells, they are very independent and you can focus on maintaining your other units. Lowering initiative of the enemies is also very important, I almost always get to act with all of my units before the enemy gets the chance to act with their fastest one. Highest base att/def in the game means having a high morale gives them absurd bonuses to those stats.

[vicheron]

I like Red Dragons since there's an artifact that reduces their leadership cost by 20%.