Poisoning/Burning still broken

[Metathron]

My 73 royal snakes poisoned a stack of inquisitors and the poison caused 19 damage.

A single bowman shoots my royal snakes and they are burned for 70-something damage.

I thought this was supposed to have been fixed?

:rolleyes:

[DGDobrev]

You should really read the KBAP Info thread. I have explained the game mechanics concerning poisoning/burning there. Check the formula. You will find it most enlightening. Also pay attention to the minimum values. This means that even a single bowman can cause havoc.

[Metathron]

Look, the damage should be relative to the size of the stack that caused the attack. I really don't need a formula to tell me that a single bowman doing that kind of damage is nonsense.

[DGDobrev]

Basic formula:

Damage = Burn/Poison Factor * random number (0.05-0.1) * Current total troop health * Medal Bonus

where:
1) Burn/Poison factor is equal to - Leadership of the troop who inflicted the post-effect/Leadership of the Target
Restrictions: min 0.1, max 1.0. The factor can only range between these 2 values.
Special: Burn/Poison factor for spells is always 1.0. It is also 1.0 for the summoned Phoenix's ability Fire storm.
2) Current total troop health - the current total health of the troop that has received the post effect.
3) Medal bonus - the bonus from the Battle Alchemy medal. According to the level of the medal, the bonus is 10/20/30%, so the multiplier will be 1.1/1.2/1.3.
Restrictions: if a friendly unit is poisoned by friendly unit's attack that has a post-effect, the multiplier is 1, regardless of the level of the medal.

There you go. These are the game mechanics. I know that KBTL had it different, but this is how it's done in KBAP. In this case the current total troop health was your biggest problem. If it were 1 snake, it would have burned for 1 point.

[Elwin]

Nonsense is that this crazy damage is only for AI ... my burn/poison does just miserable damage ...

[Ryastar]

my burn/poison is doing decent damage, cause i always make sure that I target a troop with high health, and then don't attack that stack too much.

[Elwin]

OH now i see how it works

[Hannibal]

Basic formula:

Damage = Burn/Poison Factor * random number (0.05-1) * Current total troop health * Medal Bonus


Thanks for the explanation but anyone else think that his is just a horrible ass backwards way of calculating DoT damage? Metathron was correct in saying that the damage from the DoT should be relative to the attacking size since every single other ability works that way.

The more Paladins you have the more you heal, the more shamans you have the more damage those dancing axes do etc. I don't suppose there's a mod that can correct this?

[DGDobrev]

Well, if you correct the formula, you will go back to the old KBTL style burning/poisoning. In KBTL it didn't do much damage because burning/poisoning was more like an effect than a tool. In KBTL Burning/poisoning reduces defense of the unit by 20% and inflicts a small amount of damage, which is based in a certain damage range - not like in KBAP, where the burning/poisoning damage is based on the troop's HP.

The problem is that some people will like the new formula, some will not :)

[Kosiciel]

Well, I don't like this new formula. Makes no sense to me. But, as you've said, some may like it.

[DGDobrev]

I can assure you that as soon as you get the hang of it, you are going to love the new formula.

[bot_pet]

It actually makes more sense with this formula... imagine in the real world 1 guy poisoning a well in a village with 10 population, then 1 guy poisoning a well in a castle with 500 population. The same 1 guy did much more damage to the castle population

I guess they went with this line of thinking, maybe to open up new strategies or something

[Kathos]

I don't really understand how to read that formula, but I have definitely noticed the damage on burn damage (havn't really been poisoned yet, although my royal snakes poison doesn't hit high at all) is disgustingly high. I hate the new formula for it though because the computer always has 100+ burn damage on any of my units, and I get a whopping 20-40. To say the least it's really pissing me off trying to play with no losses and I have to restart every battle with a hero because of the damage coming out of an enemy hero's flaming arrow with 2 intellect and killing several high health units with it that are hard to resurrect in a 3-4 round fight.
In KBTL I really only used psn/burn to lower defense/attack, I never relied on the damage since it didn't do a whole lot anyways. From 1 extreme to the other =/

[DGDobrev]

I can assure you that burning/poisoning is only irritating in the beginning. Once YOU get to use this little tool and master it with time, you will change your opinion.

General rule of thumb when using units with burning/poisoning post-effects:

1. Make sure the enemy stack is big or is comprised of high-health units.
2. Make sure the enemy stack has low fire/poison resistance. The lower the resistances, the better the effect.
3. Make sure the leadership difference between your stack and the enemy stack is close. This will maximize the effect.

You will soon find out that it is worth it. Whenever I play with units with post-effects, I always make sure that I get the battle alchemy medal. The extra poisoning/burning damage is more than welcome.

[Stepsongrapes]

It actually makes more sense with this formula... imagine in the real world 1 guy poisoning a well in a village with 10 population, then 1 guy poisoning a well in a castle with 500 population. The same 1 guy did much more damage to the castle population

I guess they went with this line of thinking, maybe to open up new strategies or something

It doesn't make sense. In your analogy, each of the 10 people or 500 people would get a little sick. Yes, more people get a little sick in the second scenario because of the numbers, but no one dies.

In Armored Princess: with 10 people, the first guy in the stack gets a little sick. With 500 people, first guy in the stack drops dead. The game is calculating damage as a fraction of the total stack health, but applying it ALL to the first guy. Strange how more people drinking from the well made the first guy keel over, eh?

If they wanted to make poisoning more sensical (but still useful) the effect should be some percent decrease of health for every unit in the stack: i.e., a stack of ten 100-hp units becomes a stack of ten 90-hp units. This simulates the weakening/burning effect.

Lumping all of the effects for the whole stack against the top guy is very unrealistic. Now, I understand that game mechanics need not be realistic. This new system may or may not be better for gameplay, but it certainly isn't grounded in realism.

[Zechnophobe]

Basic formula:

Damage = Burn/Poison Factor * random number (0.05-1) * Current total troop health * Medal Bonus

where:
1) Burn/Poison factor is equal to - Leadership of the troop who inflicted the post-effect/Leadership of the Target
Restrictions: min 0.1, max 1.0. The factor can only range between these 2 values.
Special: Burn/Poison factor for spells is always 1.0. It is also 1.0 for the summoned Phoenix's ability Fire storm.
2) Current total troop health - the current total health of the troop that has received the post effect.
3) Medal bonus - the bonus from the Battle Alchemy medal. According to the level of the medal, the bonus is 10/20/30%, so the multiplier will be 1.1/1.2/1.3.
Restrictions: if a friendly unit is poisoned by friendly unit's attack that has a post-effect, the multiplier is 1, regardless of the level of the medal.

There you go. These are the game mechanics. I know that KBTL had it different, but this is how it's done in KBAP. In this case the current total troop health was your biggest problem. If it were 1 snake, it would have burned for 1 point.

Ah, okay, so if burn factor = 1 (Equal or greater leadership in attacker), and the random number is 1, then the stack is killed outright? 1*1*currentHealth = currentHealth.

Is the random number meant to be .05 to .1? or .05 to 1? Because that simply isn't supported by experimental data.

[DGDobrev]

Well, the random number is any number between 0.05 and 1. Generally, I think it's pretty much impossible to get 1 as a number. That would be like hitting the jackpot. The leadership of the both troops also applies. It is very hard to find 2 troops with equal leadership. usually either your unit will have more or the enemy's.

Let's not leave out the resistances. They also factor in the damage calculation, but at a much later time.

[Zechnophobe]

Well, the random number is any number between 0.05 and 1. Generally, I think it's pretty much impossible to get 1 as a number. That would be like hitting the jackpot. The leadership of the both troops also applies. It is very hard to find 2 troops with equal leadership. usually either your unit will have more or the enemy's.

Let's not leave out the resistances. They also factor in the damage calculation, but at a much later time.

Hmm, this is still not sounding right, because the leaderships need not be that close, as long as the poisoners leadership is higher, that will get that max poison, according to the equation you have listed. Also, if you just cast poison skull on someone, which has the factor being 1, you will do randomly 5% to 100% damage to the stack on the next turn. That's an average of 52.5% damage... and is completely not what actually happens in game.

Where exactly are you deriving these numbers from? Decomposed script file somewhere? I think there is something very wrong here. That random number either has the wrong boundaries noted, current health represents a percentage of total, or something.

[Granamyr]

If they wanted to make poisoning more sensical (but still useful) the effect should be some percent decrease of health for every unit in the stack
That's a great idea! Sort of a poor man's version of Pygmy. You still get get the crazy amount of damage (depending on stack size) and it has a more realistic edge to it.

Consider the one bowman igniting a stack of 100 assassins....even if it reduces the health of the stack by 1 point, that's 100 damage but you won't have people up in arms because a lone bowman just killed one of a group of 100 assassins (and threatens to do the same on the next 2 turns....300 damage from one bowman is broken).

[DGDobrev]

Hmm, this is still not sounding right, because the leaderships need not be that close, as long as the poisoners leadership is higher, that will get that max poison, according to the equation you have listed. Also, if you just cast poison skull on someone, which has the factor being 1, you will do randomly 5% to 100% damage to the stack on the next turn. That's an average of 52.5% damage... and is completely not what actually happens in game.

Where exactly are you deriving these numbers from? Decomposed script file somewhere? I think there is something very wrong here. That random number either has the wrong boundaries noted, current health represents a percentage of total, or something.

From the Russian KBAP guide. I simply translated it, because it sounds about right. I am not certain whether the defense of a unit factors in the post-effect damage calculation.

EDIT! OUCH!!! For shame, I seem to have made a very serious blunder. That will explain a lot. The random number varies from 0.05 to 0.1, not 1. Jesus... I'll fix it right away.

[Zechnophobe]

Ah yes, that looks about right. So percent based on relative troop size in leadership, random value (5% to 10%) and then finally medal, if any.

Still odd that it is based off of leadership and not damage, or even comparative health or something. The question is, does damage resistence effect it the way one would assume? Hard to test on 'fire' creatures since most resistent to fire also don't burn. Thorns can be poisoned however, so maybe I'll see if I can get more than 5% of a thorn stack to die from a single poison hit, thus showing after damage is not being reduced by 50%

[Elwin]

Nah, resistant to fire do burn. Alreday burned fire draogn flies or demons

[DGDobrev]

Ah yes, that looks about right. So percent based on relative troop size in leadership, random value (5% to 10%) and then finally medal, if any.

Still odd that it is based off of leadership and not damage, or even comparative health or something. The question is, does damage resistence effect it the way one would assume? Hard to test on 'fire' creatures since most resistent to fire also don't burn. Thorns can be poisoned however, so maybe I'll see if I can get more than 5% of a thorn stack to die from a single poison hit, thus showing after damage is not being reduced by 50%

Well, I surmise that the guys who made the russian guide saw this formula in the game files. I was wondering about the damage as well, but it will be kind of hard to incorporate it in this formula. It is completely viable that stronger creatures (like dragons) should burn better, but believe me - I made a dragon playthrough for fun, and the dragons are doing a superb job throughout the game if used properly even with the current post-effect formula.

[Metathron]

Well, I'm getting more used to the new mechanics, but things like these still make me roll my eyes so hard I can begin to see my brain:

Fire rain inflicts area damage.
Paladins suffered 250 points of damage. 1 are killed. Paladins are burning.
...
Fire does 1497 damage. Paladins killed: 7

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Elwin]

yeah that how it goes .. i hated it at begging but liked pretty much later