The show "Dogfights" a great show, but a bit biased?

[mattmanB182]

I got a little upset about the episode I just watched. It made it seem like the P-51 was the superior to the BF-109 in every way, this is simply not the case.

They only show American victories and dont even discuss allied fights. Or give the Germans or Japanese any credit.

Am I being too critical? Or do I have a point?

[dazz1971]

I got a little upset about the episode I just watched. It made it seem like the P-51 was the superior to the BF-109 in every way, this is simply not the case.

They only show American victories and dont even discuss allied fights. Or give the Germans or Japanese any credit.

Am I being too critical? Or do I have a point?

Dont worry mattman they prob done another episode where they focus on allied and axis fights and aircraft too

[FOZ_1983]

Its an american programme isnt it so they like to give them all the credit where they can and make everyone else look really shit at the same time.

I find it a good programme though, but would be better of they showed "dogfights" for everyone, not just the americans.

Rudel, hartmann, bader, sailor malan..... list goes on.

Maybe they just dont like to see american planes shot down? who knows! but i agree is can be very biased at times.

[mattd27]

So I'm not the only one! I love the show but I can't help but cringe at the bias they have on there. I thought I was the only one taking notice but I guess not. All the stories are pretty much about heroic americans, rarely do they show allied planes getting shot down or defeated.

Don't get me wrong, there were plenty of US heroes, but still.

[Doktorwzzerd]

I got a little upset about the episode I just watched. It made it seem like the P-51 was the superior to the BF-109 in every way, this is simply not the case.

They only show American victories and dont even discuss allied fights. Or give the Germans or Japanese any credit.

Am I being too critical? Or do I have a point?

No you have a point, its a little boring sometimes for that reason. Wouldn't it be cool if they had interviewed Gunther Rall or some British or Russian pilots? Battle of Britain? Oh well thats the History Channel for you, they probably just didn't want to spring for the airfare involved in going to Europe or Japan!

[LostInSpace]

Well it is an American TV show so of course it's going to highlight American dogfight victories ;) I don't think the show ever made the claim that these particular dogfights were the best ever.

If I remember correctly ( I have season 1 on DVD) the show does cite the skill and quality of Japanese/German pilots and aircraft.

[Raw Kryptonite]

Many times. They pay a lot of respect to the enemy aircraft in all of the conflicts/wars they cover. Excellent show. Same for Battle 360.

[DaveE30]

I definitely think it's biased, but I also think it's a lot easier for the producers to interview and take account from 80+ year old Americans than 80+ year old Germans and Japanese pilots.

[Soviet Ace]

Yeah, they should have shown some Soviet, and Japanese fighter pilots. That would have been sweet. They could have mentioned the amazing dogfight between 24 FW190s along with some 109s against 18 Yak-3s. In the end, the there was a loss of 15 German planes, and only 1 Yak-3!! :cool:

On the Japanese end, they could have shown the dogfight between Saburo Sakai, and 6 F6F-5 Hellcats at Iwo Jima! That would be cool to.

[lost cause]

Yeah, they should definately relive epic combat from the Axis side. Saburo Sakai and his squadron mates (particularly Nishizawa) were some of the best fighter pilots of all time. They could absolutely take combat descriptions in his book Samauri and renact them.

The one thing i really like about BOP is learning things about the Russian side. Growing up, all the books and stories and movies were about American planes and heroes. Russia was so secrective anyway that there just wasn't much data or history known about the Russian side. Hell, there wasn't even any models of there aircraft. Plastic models. I had a hundred of them all over my room. I loved to build them but had not one russian plane. I'm learning that the Russians had a lot more than just numbers on their side. Their planes , stratagies, courage and skill were top notch.

[The_Goalie_94]

Its an American show about AMerican/Allied DOGFIGHTS...not the Japanese or Germen. Thats why its only American. Plus, the P-51 is for some models, more supirior then the BF-109 in everyway...most anyway. DOGFIGHTS really only says the basics.

[Robotic Pope]

Its an American show about AMerican/Allied DOGFIGHTS...not the Japanese or Germen. Thats why its only American. Plus, the P-51 is for some models, more supirior then the BF-109 in everyway...most anyway. DOGFIGHTS really only says the basics.

Yeah but America is always the winner at the end of these types of program. If not through the planes ability then instead their amazing superior piloting skill. America has had epic fails in war, and I don't think Ive ever seen an american documentry about any of them. I think its because americans don't like to see or be reminded about failure. I see plenty of British documentries on past british cock ups causing deaths during war and such. I think as british we don't mind as much being reminded of these things.

[PantherAttack2]

I think its because americans don't like to see or be reminded about failure. I see plenty of British documentries on past british cock ups causing deaths during war and such. I think as british we don't mind as much being reminded of these things.

I'm American, and while I obviously don't represent the entire country, I myself don't like the bias (including almost no documentaries involving U.S. defeats), but it is understandable.

A side quest in Fallout 3 involving blowing up Megaton with a nuke was removed from the Japanese version of the game if I remember correctly. I think it makes sense that a country doesn't like to be reminded of failures or bad pasts.

[Soviet Ace]

Yeah but America is always the winner at the end of these types of program. If not through the planes ability then instead their amazing superior piloting skill. America has had epic fails in war, and I don't think Ive ever seen an american documentry about any of them. I think its because americans don't like to see or be reminded about failure. I see plenty of British documentries on past british cock ups causing deaths during war and such. I think as british we don't mind as much being reminded of these things.

There are several documentaries about the Vietnam War, and the Indian Wars (which were more or less, one side massacring the other.)

[Robotic Pope]

I'm American, and while I obviously don't represent the entire country, I myself don't like the bias (including almost no documentaries involving U.S. defeats), but it is understandable.

A side quest in Fallout 3 involving blowing up Megaton with a nuke was removed from the Japanese version of the game if I remember correctly. I think it makes sense that a country doesn't like to be reminded of failures or bad pasts.

Really? I didn't know that. Anyway I'll give an example. In Britain we get to hear in documenties about things like how our soldiers were sent into war in Iraq and afganistan sometimes without body armour. About how our nimrod fleet is alegidly unfit to fly but RAF continues to use them saying they're fine. How the original Harrier was a death trap to inexperienced pilots. Ive seen a whole program about the **** ups between HMS Coventry and Sheffield in the falklands war. I think in america these kind of things would be kept quiet. And atemped to be forgoten or smoothed over.

I haven't watched the whole serieses of dogfights but isn't there one with the thundercheif included. I don't remember anything saying how bad the death rate for the pilots flying them in vietnam was, and it certainly didn't go into detail on a failed Thunderchief mission.

Soviet Ace, Yes maybe Ive seen one veitnam documentry, but I don't think it was american.

[mattmanB182]

Another thing that really irritated me about this show is that they called it the "ME" 109 when this is technically an incorrect designation. The BF-109 would have been correct.
I know they just give general info, but they should make sure it is correct.

They said the Mustang had a tighter turning radius...perhaps this is tru at extra high altitudes, but generally I do believe the 109 could hang right with the P-51 in the turn. Unless they were talking about the G-6 and later 109's. But even then they should be able to hold their own against the P-51.

The 109 is accuseed of having a very high wingload. Although this is true...the much vaunted Mustang had the same problem.

If I am correct, the Merlin was not fuel injected..so it would not be able to pull the same G forces as the DB601-DB605 engines.

Didnt the Mustangs have terrible problems with stalling out anyway at one point?

About the other biased issue: I have actually seen plenty of American shows pointing out problems and bad things we have done....failures ect....Dogfights is Not one of them.

Back to the thread topic: I am American (German ancestory) and very proud of my country, but I am tired of hearing the same old story with these episodes. Superior Americans or Superior American planes down the German/Japanese.

Yet there is no mention of the Mustangs taken down by Erich near the end of the war. I am sure there are plenty of specific interviews and accounts they could use.

I did not intend to start a debate here, but at leas I now know that I am not crazy.

[FOZ_1983]

Plenty of documentaries over here (uk) that specifically tells of our bad points, our failures and mishaps.

Were not proud of them but we have to at least aknowledge that these things happened without brushing them under the carpet.

Yes our nimrod fleet is messed up, yes our hercules transport planes are a death trap, yes our troops fight without sufficient armour or enough ammo, yes we got mauled in france and had to run away to dunkirk and get rescued by rowing boats, yes the americans beat us in the war of independence, the list goes on...

but how can we know about these thnigs if we are not told?

if we made out we were amazing and never did anything wrong then we would have a very self centred opinionated country of half wits who dont know right from wrong.


GRANTED they cannot put on the history channel "historic" fights between our troops and the taliban because the war is still ongonig and our troops are still getting killed along with americans. But many many years down the line we should be able to look at these things from both sides and understand and hold out hands up to our short coming in certain situations etc, some sort of documentary filmed from the taliban/iraqi perspective. Much like the "dogfight" show should show the great fights from both sides, not just the all conquering, always winning invinsible americans.

[Robotic Pope]

Another thing that really irritated me about this show is that they called it the "ME" 109 when this is technically an incorrect designation. The BF-109 would have been correct.
I know they just give general info, but they should make sure it is correct.



Actualy official Luftwaffe documents use both Me and Bf, so both are infact correct. You can use either.

I use Me because usually we are talking about 109F/G/K that were built LONG after the company had changed its name from Bavarian Aircraft Factory to Messerschmitt after their new young Celebrity designer.

[Mr Friendly]

Typical British talking down to Americans.

Gets a bit old, you know.

[Mr Friendly]

Plenty of documentaries over here (uk) that specifically tells of our bad points, our failures and mishaps.

Were not proud of them but we have to at least aknowledge that these things happened without brushing them under the carpet.

Yes our nimrod fleet is messed up, yes our hercules transport planes are a death trap, yes our troops fight without sufficient armour or enough ammo, yes we got mauled in france and had to run away to dunkirk and get rescued by rowing boats, yes the americans beat us in the war of independence, the list goes on...

but how can we know about these thnigs if we are not told?

if we made out we were amazing and never did anything wrong then we would have a very self centred opinionated country of half wits who dont know right from wrong.


GRANTED they cannot put on the history channel "historic" fights between our troops and the taliban because the war is still ongonig and our troops are still getting killed along with americans. But many many years down the line we should be able to look at these things from both sides and understand and hold out hands up to our short coming in certain situations etc, some sort of documentary filmed from the taliban/iraqi perspective. Much like the "dogfight" show should show the great fights from both sides, not just the all conquering, always winning invinsible americans. You made the English language and can't even spell invincible and yet you sit here insulting Americans.

[FOZ_1983]

Dont wish to rain on your parade pal, but i didnt make the English language at all, it was my ancestors many centuries ago. Thank them not me :D but thankyou for the compliment, i appreciate it. Now......

insulting americans?

ok who fed the troll?

someone going to own up?


I want to answer you, yet at the same time i dont want to lower myself to your level.

[mattmanB182]

I dont think he is insulting Americans. I dont feel insulted. He just has a different point of view.

[FOZ_1983]

I dont think he is insulting Americans. I dont feel insulted. He just has a different point of view.

I have just clearly pointed out that we (UK) have a piss poor fleet of aircraft, LOST to the yanks in a war, dont arm our troops well, RAN from the germans, YET you say im insulting americans?

Ok fool.


Be gone,


the power of christ compels you, THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU!!

:grin:


Chillax, take a chill pill


(mattman this isnt aimed at you, its for the other guy)

[mattmanB182]

I have just clearly pointed out that we (UK) have a piss poor fleet of aircraft, LOST to the yanks in a war, dont arm our troops well, RAN from the germans, YET you say im insulting americans?

Ok fool.


Be gone,


the power of christ compels you, THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU!!

:grin:


Chillax, take a chill pill




(mattman this isnt aimed at you, its for the other guy)

Dude I agree with you. You really said nothing wrong. What a goof that other dude is. Not worth wasting anymore time even posting about. I thought this thread was about a TV show. :confused:

[FOZ_1983]

yeah it is about the show (a good one at that), we just got side tracked into why it doesnt really show the fight from the "other side" so to speak?

hmmm.

[Robotic Pope]

Dogfights is nothing like as biased as a different show though, where a American Major dude reenacts battles from the back seat of a yellow WWII trainer aircraft. Can't remember the name of the programme.

[mattmanB182]

Dogfights is nothing like as biased as a different show though, where a American Major dude reenacts battles from the back seat of a yellow WWII trainer aircraft. Can't remember the name of the programme.

I think its called "Great Planes". And I dont watch it anymore just because of that fact. I have not heard him say a single time...anything bad about an American plane.

I mean come on...this is supposed to be an educational show.

[phlux]

I think its called "Great Planes". And I dont watch it anymore just because of that fact. I have not heard him say a single time...anything bad about an American plane.

I mean come on...this is supposed to be an educational show.

It's the same host as "Great Planes", but it was called "Showdown Aircombat" and yeah it was pretty silly. The host is Maj. Paul "Max" Moga" who is the lead pilot for the F-22 Raptor Demo Team. It was basically a little bit of history sprinkled in amongst the "unlike in MY Raptor when this or that happens". The guy has become somewhat of a celebrity here, seems to me he should be worried about more important things but that's just me.

BTW, good games with ya last night mattman!

[PantherAttack2]

The show Wings of the Luftwaffe is a great show featuring only German aircraft, and it correctly states good and bad features on planes and talks about wins/losses. I don't know who the producers of the show are but it is aired in America.

[Danfried]

I enjoyed several episodes, but I did find some of the episodes to have an almost nauseatingly gung-ho, pro-American bias, in particular the Vietnam episodes.

If you're going to understand a particular battle, you really need to consult sources from both sides. That's one of the great things about the Battle of Britain -- we know about Goering's decisions hobbling his fighter pilots and affecting their tactics, and why for example German fighters were forced to stick closely to bombers instead of free-ranging.

We also know that both sides wildly over-claimed the number of enemy planes they shot down. You probably can't trust in any war what one side claims without verifying it with the other side -- not necessarily because of dishonesty, but because of the fog of war.

[Irishmandkg]

Because most people don't want to hear the Nazi side of the war?

[Robotic Pope]

Because most people don't want to hear the Nazi side of the war?

Put the word 'American' between the words 'most' and 'people'. Then your comment becomes true.

[Irishmandkg]

Yea, lol sorry. I agree my country is pretty dumb.

[Irishmandkg]

I try to get as much history about ww2 from as many sources, doesn't matter who.

[Robotic Pope]

Yea, lol sorry. I agree my country is pretty dumb.

Hmmm, I wouldn't say dumb. Just Very Patriotic to America.

[Irishmandkg]

Well when half the people I know can't tell me when ww2 was, or get the Vietnam war mixed up with the Civil War, then I get worried for this country.:(

[PantherAttack2]

Well when half the people I know can't tell me when ww2 was, or get the Vietnam war mixed up with the Civil War, then I get worried for this country.:(

Yeah, that's just about the same for me. Even people I know who play COD: World at War can't tell me when WW2 was.

[mattmanB182]

Because most people don't want to hear the Nazi side of the war?

We must remember that the majority of German soldiers were not "Nazis". Besides, we cannot take away from a person's accomplishments during war simply because of their political views.

[mattmanB182]

BTW, good games with ya last night mattman!

Yea dude, especially that match where i was outnumbered 3 to 1. Of course I got murderd, but i feel proud of my self for my performance. Perhaps Erich would have been proud......

Yea it was a challenge...but it would have sucked for you guys if I had left the room. It was very hard, but very fun.

[phlux]

Big time respect for that one my friend. Not many folks would have stuck it out when their wingman quits being out numbered 3 vs 2 to begin with. Was a pleasure flying with and against you :)

[mattmanB182]

Big time respect for that one my friend. Not many folks would have stuck it out when their wingman quits being out numbered 3 vs 2 to begin with. Was a pleasure flying with and against you :)

Thanks man, he didnt even talk to me the whole time....i was begging him to coordinate with me..so i felt solo anway lol.


I really appreciate you thanking me and showing so much respect. Your a true sport.