HE162 Salamanda a how did it even work?

[haitch40]

i remember reading somewhere that to save resources in germany's dying years it was largely made of wood now if my science is any good JET+WOOD=FIRE

[RCfalcon]

Yeah, I know the whole point of that project was a jet fighter that could be made relatively easy. They probably had metal or something over the parts that would be directly exposed to the heat from the jet, or something.

I've always wondered how the pilots got out of that thing. Seems like it would be a bitch to bail out of...with the engine right behind the cockpit and all.

*pops off the canopy and starts to climb out* "Im going to make it, Im going to make i---" *gets sucked into the engine*

I think I heard they had some kind of mechanism to jettison the seat away from the plane, but Im not sure. Not like Hitler was ever very concerned about employee safety.

[juz1]

It was destined to be flown by hitler youth...plentiful and expendable
________
FORD FOCUS (NORTH AMERICA) HISTORY (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Ford_Focus_(North_America))

[RCfalcon]

It was destined to be flown by hitler youth...plentiful and expendable

Thought so. Could have sworn I'd heard it referred to as "The Hitler Youth Fighter" on some show once.

Really, Hitler is to blame for his jet program's lack of impact. He's the one that saw the Me-262 and said "There should be a bomber version". Who sees their country being levelled by massive bomber formations, looks at the most advanced fighter aircraft up to that point and thinks 'Im going to split resources to make a bomber variant when resources are already scarce to begin with' ?

But then again, Hitler's reign is marred by several terrible military decisions. Who invades Russia? Has that ever turned out well for anyone that has tried? lol

[Ancient Seraph]

It only flew for about seven minutes, so it's not like they'd get shot down a lot before the engine quit. Then they had to glide down and land on the ski, since they dropped their landing gear on take-off. Don't think ejecting was their biggest concern :P.

[RCfalcon]

It only flew for about seven minutes, so it's not like they'd get shot down a lot before the engine quit. Then they had to glide down and land on the ski, since they dropped their landing gear on take-off. Don't think ejecting was their biggest concern :P.

I think you're thinking of the Me-163 Komet. The He-162 is the Salamader, that jet with the engine on top. But yeah, with the Komet, they were just hoping they werent one of the 60% that died on takeoff.

[Ancient Seraph]

I think you're thinking of the Me-163 Komet. The He-162 is the Salamader, that jet with the engine on top. But yeah, with the Komet, they were just hoping they werent one of the 60% that died on takeoff.

Oops, my bad. All those numbers :rolleyes:.

[RCfalcon]

Oops, my bad. All those numbers :rolleyes:.

Yeah, those crazy Germans and their similarly numbered planes. lol

[Dubbedinenglish]

Thought so. Could have sworn I'd heard it referred to as "The Hitler Youth Fighter" on some show once.

Really, Hitler is to blame for his jet program's lack of impact. He's the one that saw the Me-262 and said "There should be a bomber version". Who sees their country being levelled by massive bomber formations, looks at the most advanced fighter aircraft up to that point and thinks 'Im going to split resources to make a bomber variant when resources are already scarce to begin with' ?

But then again, Hitler's reign is marred by several terrible military decisions. Who invades Russia? Has that ever turned out well for anyone that has tried? lol

The Russian invasion would've worked out better if he went with Operation Sea Lion beforehand.

[MorgothNL]

Yeah, those crazy Germans and their similarly numbered planes. lol

Yeah, the americans are way better at that :P. P-40, P-47, P51, P-38 etc :rolleyes:. Why cant they just give them cool names ? Just call them jug, mustang, lightning.. get rid of those lame numbers. Thats so old fashioned :rolleyes:

[RCfalcon]

Yeah, the americans are way better at that :P. P-40, P-47, P51, P-38 etc :rolleyes:. Why cant they just give them cool names ? Just call them jug, mustang, lightning.. get rid of those lame numbers. Thats so old fashioned :rolleyes:

Yes we are =P

Speaking of the P-38. Where is it? I want my Lightning.

...and the Horton flying wing, but I know that's a longshot. lol

[Araqiel]

Yeah, I know the whole point of that project was a jet fighter that could be made relatively easy. They probably had metal or something over the parts that would be directly exposed to the heat from the jet, or something.

I've always wondered how the pilots got out of that thing. Seems like it would be a bitch to bail out of...with the engine right behind the cockpit and all.

*pops off the canopy and starts to climb out* "Im going to make it, Im going to make i---" *gets sucked into the engine*

I think I heard they had some kind of mechanism to jettison the seat away from the plane, but Im not sure. Not like Hitler was ever very concerned about employee safety.

The 162 was indeed one of the first aircraft to use rocket ejector seats, due to the issue with the fuselage-mounted turbojet.

[juz1]

The Russian invasion would've worked out better if he went with Operation Sea Lion beforehand.

he did try...
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Deluxe (http://www.dodge-wiki.com/wiki/Plymouth_Deluxe)

[Lexandro]

he did try...

And failed.

[Quinntan]

Yeah, I know the whole point of that project was a jet fighter that could be made relatively easy. They probably had metal or something over the parts that would be directly exposed to the heat from the jet, or something.

I've always wondered how the pilots got out of that thing. Seems like it would be a bitch to bail out of...with the engine right behind the cockpit and all.

*pops off the canopy and starts to climb out* "Im going to make it, Im going to make i---" *gets sucked into the engine*

I think I heard they had some kind of mechanism to jettison the seat away from the plane, but Im not sure. Not like Hitler was ever very concerned about employee safety.

They had ejector seats, I think.

[Wissam24]

Apparently if they had continued bombing British airfields instead of suddenly changing to bombing the cities, the RAF would have eventually become powerless and Germany could have invaded Britain. But they didn't

[Dubbedinenglish]

he did try...

The shift from military to civilian targets killed the chance for Sea Lion. If the Germans kept the focus on the RAF combined with the U-boat press a ground war in Great Britian would've been a quick win for the Germans.

Which in turn would've prevented operation Torch, thus keeping the full Nazi resources focused in Russia, rather than in three directions.

[mattmanB182]

The shift from military to civilian targets killed the chance for Sea Lion. If the Germans kept the focus on the RAF combined with the U-boat press a ground war in Great Britian would've been a quick win for the Germans.

Which in turn would've prevented operation Torch, thus keeping the full Nazi resources focused in Russia, rather than in three directions.

Many people do not realize that Hitler could have easily done this. If he had some decent common sense he could have won the war.

[Swagger7]

The funny thing about the 162 being the "Hitler Youth Fighter" was that it wound up being a bitch to fly and needed an experienced pilot, which was really counter-productive to the whole cheap & expendable thing!

I'm not sure if Hitler could have won the war even if he pulled off Sea Lion. Unless I'm seriously mistaken, there weren't that many German soldiers waiting on the French coast by the time Russia was invaded. Probably far fewer than would have been needed to garrison Britain! The only real advantage Hitler would have gained from taking England would be protection from bombers. (Unless the presence of the Germans in the UK scared the Irish into the arms of the Allies) This is providing of course that the US still entered the war.

Also, in the real war, Germany didn't come near to wiping out the USSR. Even if they took Moscow, the Wehrmacht would still have only held 10% or so of Russian territory. And the Russians had that huge army in the east to protect against Japanese attack. They could have sent that into battle if the Germans had advanced any farther.

I think taking England would have certainly prolonged the war, but Hitler was pretty much screwed the moment he decided to f**k with the Russkies. You can't take on a country with that much more resources and people with much hope of winning.

[Ancient Seraph]

Many people do not realize that Hitler could have easily done this. If he had some decent common sense he could have won the war.

If he had some decent common sense? Dude, that guy was a genius. Guess he just lost track of it somewhere.
(No, I'm not pro-Hitler, it's just a fact he's brilliant, look at what he accomplished)

[dazz1971]

If he had some decent common sense? Dude, that guy was a genius. Guess he just lost track of it somewhere.
(No, I'm not pro-Hitler, it's just a fact he's brilliant, look at what he accomplished)

i agree he did accomplished a lot but he was also quite mad didnt he have some degenarative illness ?

im sure ive read some where he had huge mental problems ??

i could be wrong though so if i am ill stand corrected :grin:

[beaker126]

I was watching a special about snipers one night, and they were talking about how the OSS had a plan to send a two man sniper team to take out Hitler at the Wolf's Lair. It was cancelled because the the powers that be figured if Hitler was gone someone competent might take over. This was a little ways into the war, after some of his mental instabilites were starting to show.

[Doktorwzzerd]

Yes we are =P

Speaking of the P-38. Where is it? I want my Lightning.

...and the Horton flying wing, but I know that's a longshot. lol

Hear! Hear! The two highest scoring American aces of WW2, Richard Bong and Tommy McGuire, both flew P-38s exclusively. I need to feel all that speed, kinetic energy, and weight of fire; screw turning radius!

As to the other points in this thread, IMHO: 1) Sea Lion could have never succeeded as the Royal Navy would have obliterated the invasion fleet even if the RAF had been significantly reduced by the Luftwaffe. 2) Hitler was thoroughly sub-genius. German successes in France in 1940 and Russia in 1941 were due entirely to Guderian's genius as well as the excellent quality of the Prussian military machine, which the Nazis fully inherited and had nothing to do with. On the other hand all of the German reverses post-1941 were due almost entirely to Hitler's taking a direct role in the day to day tactical and strategic management of the war, a task for which he was eminently unqualified.

[Swagger7]

Hear! Hear! The two highest scoring American aces of WW2, Richard Bong and Tommy McGuire, both flew P-38s exclusively. I need to feel all that speed, kinetic energy, and weight of fire; screw turning radius!

As to the other points in this thread, IMHO: 1) Sea Lion could have never succeeded as the Royal Navy would have obliterated the invasion fleet even if the RAF had been significantly reduced by the Luftwaffe. 2) Hitler was thoroughly sub-genius. German successes in France in 1940 and Russia in 1941 were due entirely to Guderian's genius as well as the excellent quality of the Prussian military machine, which the Nazis fully inherited and had nothing to do with. On the other hand all of the German reverses post-1941 were due almost entirely to Hitler's taking a direct role in the day to day tactical and strategic management of the war, a task for which he was eminently unqualified.

Yeah, Hitler was a 'tard, but I think Sea Lion could have succeeded. It just wouldn't have had a big impact on the final outcome of the war. The problem with using the Royal Navy to stop the invasion is that the invasion wouldn't have started until the RAF was thrashed. Then, the Luftwaffe could have seriously mangled the navy if it tried to interfere. Look what a couple of squadrons of Japanese bombers did to HMS Wales & HMS Repulse. Also, the Kriegsmarine could have filled the channel with dozens of U-boats, waiting silently at periscope depth to launch down the throat torpedo attacks on the RN. The Germans could also have mined the channel at night to deny the navy access.

[Swagger7]

If he had some decent common sense? Dude, that guy was a genius. Guess he just lost track of it somewhere.
(No, I'm not pro-Hitler, it's just a fact he's brilliant, look at what he accomplished)

Um, no. Hitler wasn't that smart. All he really had was charisma. He accomplished most of what he did just by motivating people. The fact is that he was one of the most stupid military leaders of all time. He constantly interfered with his subordinates and forced them to do stupid things while ignoring their advice.

[Tentacle19]

I suggest reading Len Dieghton's " Fighter ". There is lots of great information in that book about the BoB. Where do you start? IF the 109s had drop tanks,thus extending their time over england who knows. If the Germans had bombed the spitfire factory? Even if they defeated the RAF, they had no proper landing craft to launch SeaLion let alone dealing with the Royal navy. ( although with no fighter cover how long does a navy last? ) Anyway, read "Fighter" its a great book.

[Doktorwzzerd]

Yeah, Hitler was a 'tard, but I think Sea Lion could have succeeded. It just wouldn't have had a big impact on the final outcome of the war. The problem with using the Royal Navy to stop the invasion is that the invasion wouldn't have started until the RAF was thrashed. Then, the Luftwaffe could have seriously mangled the navy if it tried to interfere. Look what a couple of squadrons of Japanese bombers did to HMS Wales & HMS Repulse. Also, the Kriegsmarine could have filled the channel with dozens of U-boats, waiting silently at periscope depth to launch down the throat torpedo attacks on the RN. The Germans could also have mined the channel at night to deny the navy access.


OK good points, no doubt the RN would take very heavy losses, but I still think they would have had the power to impede the landings and keep the Germans from adequately supplying their beachheads. All of your points about the RNs vulnerability to aerial attack are true, however also don't forget how immensely difficult amphibious landings are, both tactically and logistically.

Let's compare D-Day to a hypothetical Sea-Lion. The Germans had no air superiority, no surface navy and a much longer coastline to defend in 1944. Also in 1944 the allies possessed naval, manpower and logistical resources that the Germans contemplating Sea-Lion could never hope to match, and Overlord was still, in the words of Ike "the damned closest run thing you ever saw".

The Wehrmacht attempting Sea-Lion would have a much more limited range of potential landing sites, making it easier for the British to concentrate their defense. Sea-Lion would both lack a surface fleet of its own and it would be harassed by the largest navy in Europe. Also the Wehrmacht had absolutely no experience with amphibious landings, whereas the Allies by 1944 had considerable experience gained from Dieppe, Sicily, Italy, Norway, North Africa and the Pacific theater.

Could Sea-Lion have worked in the event that the RAF was neutralized? Maybe, but I think the odds are heavily against it. My guess is that it would have looked less like D-Day and more like Dieppe or Gallipoli.

[Swagger7]

OK good points, no doubt the RN would take very heavy losses, but I still think they would have had the power to impede the landings and keep the Germans from adequately supplying their beachheads. All of your points about the RNs vulnerability to aerial attack are true, however also don't forget how immensely difficult amphibious landings are, both tactically and logistically.

Let's compare D-Day to a hypothetical Sea-Lion. The Germans had no air superiority, no surface navy and a much longer coastline to defend in 1944. Also in 1944 the allies possessed naval, manpower and logistical resources that the Germans contemplating Sea-Lion could never hope to match, and Overlord was still, in the words of Ike "the damned closest run thing you ever saw".

The Wehrmacht attempting Sea-Lion would have a much more limited range of potential landing sites, making it easier for the British to concentrate their defense. Sea-Lion would both lack a surface fleet of its own and it would be harassed by the largest navy in Europe. Also the Wehrmacht had absolutely no experience with amphibious landings, whereas the Allies by 1944 had considerable experience gained from Dieppe, Sicily, Italy, Norway, North Africa and the Pacific theater.

Could Sea-Lion have worked in the event that the RAF was neutralized? Maybe, but I think the odds are heavily against it. My guess is that it would have looked less like D-Day and more like Dieppe or Gallipoli.

That's true. Hitler did have really crappy landing craft (as Tentacle19 mentioned) Although you don't need much in the way of transport if you can make the landing unopposed. Keep in mind that during the beginning of the Battle of Britain the British Army was short on manpower and had little armor. If the panzers could have gotten ashore early in the battle they'd probably have rolled right over England. If they couldn't get off the beach then it'd be more like Gallipoli like you said. In the end it's all just speculation. Although if Hitler had done the following:
1. Attack the British Army at Dunkirk, rather than forcing his generals to hold back.
2. Built proper landing craft
3. Concentrated solely on destroying the RAF on the ground & in the air.
...then it's probable that Britain would have fallen. But he didn't do any of that ('cause he was a frikkin moron), so this is all just speculation.

[Swagger7]

I suggest reading Len Dieghton's " Fighter ". There is lots of great information in that book about the BoB. Where do you start? IF the 109s had drop tanks,thus extending their time over england who knows. If the Germans had bombed the spitfire factory? Even if they defeated the RAF, they had no proper landing craft to launch SeaLion let alone dealing with the Royal navy. ( although with no fighter cover how long does a navy last? ) Anyway, read "Fighter" its a great book.

I actually did a report on the contribution of foreign fighter pilots to the BoB and how many histories overlook them. "Fighter" was one of my sources. Sadly I was only able to skim it, since I had ten whole books to include (along with an analysis of each book's historicity). It's on my shelf of things to read when I get the chance. You're right about the landing craft, though. Operation Sea Lion was poorly planned from the get-go. Exactly what chance it had of succeeding is just speculation. (but I'm an avid history buff, so speculation is my cup of tea!)

[Doktorwzzerd]

That's true. Hitler did have really crappy landing craft (as Tentacle19 mentioned) Although you don't need much in the way of transport if you can make the landing unopposed. Keep in mind that during the beginning of the Battle of Britain the British Army was short on manpower and had little armor. If the panzers could have gotten ashore early in the battle they'd probably have rolled right over England. If they couldn't get off the beach then it'd be more like Gallipoli like you said. In the end it's all just speculation. Although if Hitler had done the following:
1. Attack the British Army at Dunkirk, rather than forcing his generals to hold back.
2. Built proper landing craft
3. Concentrated solely on destroying the RAF on the ground & in the air.
...then it's probable that Britain would have fallen. But he didn't do any of that ('cause he was a frikkin moron), so this is all just speculation.

Ahhh but you really have to think about the logistical side of Sea Lion, panzers need fuel, infantry needs ammo, food and LOTS of it. The problems of supply are what I think would really dog Sea-Lion, much more so than any battles on the beaches. I would guess if the British could stop the Germans before they could get to London (and I think they could) the supply problems would become a MAJOR headache for the Germans. Logistics is something the Germans were never very good at, look at the North Africa campaign, Russia etc. Their inability to keep their supply lines open over water was a major reason why Rommel lost and they would face the exact same situation in any cross channel adventure, RAF or no RAF.

[xNikex]

There's a new line of private jets made by Cirrus that looks just like an He-162 called the Cirrus Vision.

BTW, glad to be back and to see many others have joined the forum.

[Swagger7]

Ahhh but you really have to think about the logistical side of Sea Lion, panzers need fuel, infantry needs ammo, food and LOTS of it. The problems of supply are what I think would really dog Sea-Lion, much more so than any battles on the beaches. I would guess if the British could stop the Germans before they could get to London (and I think they could) the supply problems would become a MAJOR headache for the Germans. Logistics is something the Germans were never very good at, look at the North Africa campaign, Russia etc. Their inability to keep their supply lines open over water was a major reason why Rommel lost and they would face the exact same situation in any cross channel adventure, RAF or no RAF.

The reason Rommel's supply lines were cut is because the British broke the Enigma codes & always knew where the convoys were. The Channel is too narrow for that to work (not enough time to decode & send someone to intercept). Also, if the Germans had air superiority they could defend their convoys from above, unlike in the Med. As far as stopping the German army at London goes, remember my scenario had the forces at Dunkirk getting wiped out. Early on in the BoB the British literally had no ground forces apart from the forces that returned from France. This is why the Home Guard was training with pitchforks and shovels. If the French & British armies couldn't stop them on the mainland, I don't think a bunch of ill trained guys with hunting rifles and shotguns would have even slowed them down. Again though, we're talking about a scenario where Hitler acted more intelligently and the Luftwaffe gained early air superiority. (There are some who argue that they were very close when they redirected their attacks to London)

[Swagger7]

There's a new line of private jets made by Cirrus that looks just like an He-162 called the Cirrus Vision.

BTW, glad to be back and to see many others have joined the forum.

Welcome back. Personally, I think that the Cirrus Vision is an incredibly ugly plane, but maybe that's just me. The name is kind of lame too. It sounds like a cheap sedan. I'd take one of those Cessna twin-props over the CV any day!

[Doktorwzzerd]

The reason Rommel's supply lines were cut is because the British broke the Enigma codes & always knew where the convoys were. The Channel is too narrow for that to work (not enough time to decode & send someone to intercept). Also, if the Germans had air superiority they could defend their convoys from above, unlike in the Med. As far as stopping the German army at London goes, remember my scenario had the forces at Dunkirk getting wiped out. Early on in the BoB the British literally had no ground forces apart from the forces that returned from France. This is why the Home Guard was training with pitchforks and shovels. If the French & British armies couldn't stop them on the mainland, I don't think a bunch of ill trained guys with hunting rifles and shotguns would have even slowed them down. Again though, we're talking about a scenario where Hitler acted more intelligently and the Luftwaffe gained early air superiority. (There are some who argue that they were very close when they redirected their attacks to London)

As you said this is all hypothetical, so it largely a matter of opinion, that being said, forgive me while I dork out:-)

I disagree about the English use of Enigma decrypts in the Mediterranean being critical to cutting Rommel's supply lines as English Intelligence had to use those decrypts very sparingly lest the Germans catch on. Mainly they were using them for strategic applications and not tactical ones. Also when you have overwhelming and unchallenged naval superiority, omnipotent intelligence of the kind Ultra provided isn't necessary to interdict the enemy's shipping. This really is a matter of opinion, but I am unconvinced that the Luftwaffe could have stopped the Royal Navy completely from carrying out its mission, and I am certain they couldn't have stopped the RN at night. I take your points about the Japanese victories against undefended capital ships early in WW2, but recall that the Japanese spent a lot of time training for that very mission. I doubt the Luftwaffe would have been as effective against the Royal Navy, but I admittedly I can't prove that.

As for the home guard, they were not the only military formation in England, there were several divisions of the regular British Army that never went to France available for defense. The Home Guard were more analogous to the Volksstorm than any regular army unit, hence the pitchforks. Also England had built an extensive line of fortifications that would have greatly frustrated German armor; I don't think that one should assume a rapid German breakout based on these factors. Don't forget, we are assuming that operation Eagle would have worked, meaning that this hypothetical Sea-Lion would have taken place in August or September of 1940, not June immediately after Dunkirk, so the British Army would have been much more prepared than you are suggesting.

I guess it really all comes down to a few critical issues, if the Luftwaffe could have safe guarded the German supply lines against the RN, and if the Germans could have gotten off the beaches rapidly, and if the Germans could have gotten enough shipping to supply their troops and if they could have seized a port early that could harbor their shipping, then yes Sea Lion could have succeeded, but thats a lot of ifs and that why I would give it a low probability.

At any rate theres a lot of good points on both side of the argument, check out the Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Sealion#Chances_of_success), its pretty interesting.