TBF Avenger and other planes

[RPS69]

A friend tried to make us play a mission with 100 B17's.

He said he tested it off line and it worked fine.

It was going well, until we aproached the bombers and they opened fire upon us. This lagged things a lot, but when they dropped bombs, FPS go to 0.

Still, I won't blame the game, but internet quality, and CPU performance.

[sniperton]

Originally Posted by Furio

If I’m not mistaken, the Italian built Re2000 was the Hèja I, and could already be employed in a Hungarian pilot career. For the Hèja II, a different engine and cowling is almost all is needed, performances being similar.

Re.2000 was only produced for export (Sweden and Hungary). In Hungary, it was called Héja I and was used as a first line fighter in 1941/42. Later on, Hungary even manufactured it, as Héja II, under licence, but this second version saw service only in secondary roles (the superior Bf 109 F and G became available by then). The Re.2000 was indeed made available in the game as part of the Hungarian plane-set (Cr.42 > Re.2000 > Bf 109).

The funny thing is that the Italian manufacturer delivered the planes for Hungary with an English maintenance manual. It seems that the language of the enemy was the common language between the two allies of Germany.

[KG26_Alpha]

Originally Posted by sniperton

The funny thing is that the Italian manufacturer delivered the planes for Hungary with an English maintenance manual. It seems that the language of the enemy was the common language between the two allies of Germany.

They were translated locally depending on deployment.

[Furio]

Originally Posted by sniperton

Re.2000 was only produced for export (Sweden and Hungary).

Actually, it saw limited service in Italy also. Some examples were adapted to be launched from ships, much like the British Hurricat, the only difference being… the ships: merchantmen for the Hurricat, capital battleship for the Re2000. Having long range, the 2000 Catapultabile was supposed to reach shore after completing its mission.

A dozen "2000 GA" (Grande Autonomia, Long Range) were used from land bases and, apparently, obtained just one confirmed kill, against an RAF Blenheim.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Asheshouse

That's great news. I'll expect to see all the single engine models that you are working on in the next patch.

Point taken. Sadly, modeling is beyond my skills, much less all the fiddly stuff that represents 90% of the work.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by sniperton

Strange as it is, but the game engine and the general game design are more fitted to recreate either the 'forgotten battles' of WWII or the Jet Era than the large-scale air operations characteristic of the main battle fronts from the mid war. Even the Battle of Britain falls into this latter category.

That just means that mission builders need to design their scenarios wisely, scaling big missions down proportionately or removing planes which aren't vital to the mission.

For example, if you're designing a fighter sweep where a flight of P-51s leave the bombers to attack a German airfield, you don't have to include the rest of the squadron and all the bombers cruising along at 25,000 feet.

Also, don't assume that just because there weren't that many planes in the theater that there couldn't be odd battles where there were dozens of planes in the sky. For example, one mission flown by the Flying Tigers saw 12 P-40s and 15 Buffaloes vs. 25 Ki-43 and 63 Ki-21! Or, during the bombing of Darwin, Australia, the Japanese put 188 aircraft into the air for the first raid!

Originally Posted by sniperton

As to new maps and (mostly British) planes, I would hark back to the forgotten battles concept and concentrate on the Northern convoy route to Murmansk, on the Med, on China, and on Australasia. And, of course, several old cockpits deserve a repaint at least.

My choice for "new" maps would be to have some big open sea maps for the Arctic Sea, North Atlantic and Mediterranean. All that would be needed is changing the .ini files for the Coral Sea map to alter longitude, latitude and air temperature, although perhaps water color could be altered to reflect dominant cloud conditions (i.e., steely gray for the North Atlantic in winter).

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Furio

If I’m not mistaken, the Italian built Re2000 was the Hèja I, and could already be employed in a Hungarian pilot career. For the Hèja II, a different engine and cowling is almost all is needed, performances being similar.

I'd forgotten that the Re.2000 is flyable. The cockpit gauges are Italian, though. I have no idea if they were in Hungarian for the Heja I, but that's a minor detail.

Originally Posted by Furio

That’s a typo for the 2001, I suppose… In that case, the Re2001 was built in small numbers (Wiki says 237) and had rather unspectacular performances.

Yep, typo for Re.2001. Top speed and high altitude performance wasn't all that, but at low levels it was an effective turn fighter and a potential match for the Spitfire Mk.V when competently flown.

As for low production figures, remember that, compared to aircraft production in larger nations, no Italian plane was produced in huge numbers. Italian industry just wasn't up to the task, so many promising designs were never built, or weren't produced in sufficient numbers to make a difference.

[sniperton]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

As for low production figures, remember that, compared to aircraft production in larger nations, no Italian plane was produced in huge numbers. Italian industry just wasn't up to the task, so many promising designs were never built, or weren't produced in sufficient numbers to make a difference.

More disturbing is what they did produce in large quantities and we've never complained about. These are the plane types (without trainers) they had in larger numbers (>100). Type / role / year entering service / number of aircraft built:

Reggiane Re.2002	fighter	1942	140
Breda Ba.88	fighter / bomber	1938	149
Caproni Ca.111	reconnaissance	1933	152
Fiat RS.14	reconnaissance	1941	186
Caproni Ca.310	reconnaissance / bomber	1938	193
IMAM Ro.43	reconnaissance	1935	193
Macchi M.C.205V	fighter	1943	199
Breda Ba.65	ground attack	1937	200
Caproni Ca.314	bomber / maritime patrol	1942	200
Junkers Ju 87B-2 & D-1	dive bomber	1940	210
Messerschmitt Bf 109G/K	fighter	1943	225
Fiat B.R.20	bomber	1936	233
Caproni Ca.309	reconnaissance	n/a	243
Reggiane Re.2001	fighter	1941	243
Fiat B.R.20M	bomber	1936	279
Caproni Ca.164	liaison		280
Caproni Ca.311	bomber	1939	284
CANT Z.506B	maritime patrol / bomber	1939	314
Savoia-Marchetti SM.84	bomber	1941	329
Caproni Ca.313	bomber	n/a	338
SAIMAN 202	liaison	1939	390
Caproni Ca.133	transport / bomber	1935	443
CANT Z.501	maritime patrol	1936	454
Savoia-Marchetti SM.81	bomber	1935	534
CANT Z.1007	bomber	1939	582
IMAM Ro.37	reconnaissance	1935	617
Fiat G.50	fighter	1938	683
Savoia-Marchetti SM.82	transport / bomber	1940	726
Fiat C.R.32	fighter	1933	1052
Macchi M.C.200	fighter	1939	1151
Savoia-Marchetti SM.79	bomber / transport	1936	1240
Macchi M.C.202	fighter	1941	1351
Fiat C.R.42	fighter	1939	1551

I suspect other air forces would be not much different if scrutinized.

[Furio]

Originally Posted by sniperton

More disturbing is what they did produce in large quantities and we've never complained about. These are the plane types (without trainers) they had in larger numbers (>100). Type / role / year entering service / number of aircraft built:

Reggiane Re.2002	fighter	1942	140
Breda Ba.88	fighter / bomber	1938	149
Caproni Ca.111	reconnaissance	1933	152
Fiat RS.14	reconnaissance	1941	186
Caproni Ca.310	reconnaissance / bomber	1938	193
IMAM Ro.43	reconnaissance	1935	193
Macchi M.C.205V	fighter	1943	199
Breda Ba.65	ground attack	1937	200
Caproni Ca.314	bomber / maritime patrol	1942	200
Junkers Ju 87B-2 & D-1	dive bomber	1940	210
Messerschmitt Bf 109G/K	fighter	1943	225
Fiat B.R.20	bomber	1936	233
Caproni Ca.309	reconnaissance	n/a	243
Reggiane Re.2001	fighter	1941	243
Fiat B.R.20M	bomber	1936	279
Caproni Ca.164	liaison		280
Caproni Ca.311	bomber	1939	284
CANT Z.506B	maritime patrol / bomber	1939	314
Savoia-Marchetti SM.84	bomber	1941	329
Caproni Ca.313	bomber	n/a	338
SAIMAN 202	liaison	1939	390
Caproni Ca.133	transport / bomber	1935	443
CANT Z.501	maritime patrol	1936	454
Savoia-Marchetti SM.81	bomber	1935	534
CANT Z.1007	bomber	1939	582
IMAM Ro.37	reconnaissance	1935	617
Fiat G.50	fighter	1938	683
Savoia-Marchetti SM.82	transport / bomber	1940	726
Fiat C.R.32	fighter	1933	1052
Macchi M.C.200	fighter	1939	1151
Savoia-Marchetti SM.79	bomber / transport	1936	1240
Macchi M.C.202	fighter	1941	1351
Fiat C.R.42	fighter	1939	1551

I suspect other air forces would be not much different if scrutinized.

Looking a little more in depth, the situation is not bad as described, at least for what I know and IMHO.

I divided the listed types in four groups. The first one comprises types never or little used in combat, or that had an indifferent career. We can live without them, IMHO.
Breda 88: a total failure.
Caproni 111: retired as combat type before WWII.
Caproni Ca 310: operated in small numbers over Libia.
Caproni Ca309: a minor type, in the same class as the Avro Anson.
Caproni Ca164: similar to the Tiger Moth.
Siai SM84: designed to replace the SM79, it was actually inferior.
Saiman 202: a lightplane used for training and liaison.
IMAM Ro37: an obsolete recon type, little more than fighter fodder.
Caproni Ca133: obsolete by 1940, never used operationally in WWII.
Fiat CR32: in the same class as Gloster Gauntlet. It was even more obsolete than its replacement, the CR42.
To this list, I would add:
Re 2005, a beautiful fighter with very, very short operational career.
Piaggio P108, the only Italian four engine heavy bomber.

The second group lists interesting, but not particularly important types. All of these, IMHO are not a priority by any means.
Reggiane 2001: an unremarkable performing fighter.
IMAM Ro 43: shipborne floatplane. Limited use.
Breda Ba65. An obsolete attack type, employed in Spain and North Africa.
Caproni Ca 311-313-314. An interesting light bomber-recon, mainly employed in secondary roles.
Fiat RS14. That’s an interesting floatplane, but the CANT Z506 was more widely used.
Cant Z501: An interesting flying boat, mainly used in rescue role.
Siai S81: an obsolete bomber by 1940, it was mainly used for night sorties. Relegated to transport role, it saw service in Finland, with Italian crews and Luftwaffe markings up to 1944. A minor, but interesting type.

The third group lists important types really deserving – IMHO – to be included: as you can see, it’s a short list.
Fiat BR20-BR20M. This type would complete the trio of main Italian bombers. It was used also by Japanese Army Air Force.
Cant Z506: a beautiful floatplane, widely and successfully employed.
Siai S82: a big transport, with long range and high load carrying capability. This is an important missing type by any means.

The fourth group lists types already present, flyable or AI:
Fiat G50: flyable.
Macchi 200, 202 and 205: flyable.
SM79: flyable.
Fiat CR42: flyable.
Cantz 1007: AI.
Re2002: AI.
To this list, must be added the Fiat G55, AI.

Conclusion: in my opinion, Regia Aeronautica is well represented, with most major combat types already available. I would love to see the same ratio for RAF.

[gaunt1]

I'd add one more italian type: Ca-135. As far as I know, hungarians used it against soviets.