Paccus HAWK-First joystick with hydraulic feedback

[Zerotown]

I've read - on an earlier version of the site - that prices currently listed are for exclusive, individually crafted models of the stick. Once the actual manufacturing process takes off, the prices will be far lower.

[engadin]

Originally Posted by Zerotown

I've read - on an earlier version of the site - that prices currently listed are for exclusive, individually crafted models of the stick. Once the actual manufacturing process takes off, the prices will be far lower.

Hi Zerotown, crossing my fingers you're right. It is true in a previous e-mail, Mr. Bart Sikkens, Paccus CEO, pointed out in your very same direction, Zerotwn, when saying:

"muchos gracias Gonzalo,

we will keep it in mind. In the mean time we work on a first exclusive series.

kind regards
Bart".

FIRST EXCLUSIVE SERIES.

I am afraid - and I would be very glad aswell - that's the point for those outrageously high prices.

I emailed him a few hours ago, asking for a confirmation on the price news. I'll tell you back as soon as he answers.

I mean they naturally want their joystick in the market in huge ammounts, if possible. The investment in development and world wide patents has been enormous. They do not want to throw all that effort away.

So marketing wise, what's the point for such heart-attack prices. To draw our attention on the more expensive joysticks in history, while we push our noses on the shop window, drooling, unable to reach for them?.

Sincerely I hope you're right Zerotown. Thanks for taking my hopes back to life.

Engadin.

[Zerotown]

Originally Posted by engadin

So marketing wise, what's the point for such heart-attack prices. To draw our attention on the more expensive joysticks in history, while we push our noses on the shop window, drooling, unable to reach for them?.

Hi Engadin. I think the current prices are largely due to the fact that it is extremely expensive for them to manufacture a single unique item. One has to calculate the price of each individual part and the man-hours needed to assemble them. Plus: Paccus is still a start-up company: each hour devoted to builing such a custom order is time that can't be spent talking to investors or fine-tuning an industrial process that produces the sticks in bulk etc. If I were them, I'd reflect that in my current pricing. If we consider these factors, the current price isn't all that strange.

Sincerely I hope you're right Zerotown. Thanks for taking my hopes back to life.

You're welcome I hope that Mr. Sikkens contacts you with some official confirmation. They are using some seriously impressive technology in their products. Like you, I'm very curious how they will handle.

[swiss]

Originally Posted by Zerotown

Hi Engadin. I think the current prices are largely due to the fact that it is extremely expensive for them to manufacture a single unique item. One has to calculate the price of each individual part and the man-hours needed to assemble them. Plus: Paccus is still a start-up company: each hour devoted to builing such a custom order is time that can't be spent talking to investors or fine-tuning an industrial process that produces the sticks in bulk etc. If I were them, I'd reflect that in my current pricing. If we consider these factors, the current price isn't all that strange.

And this is their 1st and probably last major error.
As start-up you should be able to finance yourself for at least 12 months with more less 0 turnover, heck you should even calculate loss on each item sold.

As small company they dont have the $ for a huge marketing campaign to enter the market, so they have to rely on customer feedback/Word of mouth.
With those fantasy prices they won't achieve either.

[engadin]

Originally Posted by swiss

And this is their 1st and probably last major error.
As start-up you should be able to finance yourself for at least 12 months with more less 0 turnover, heck you should even calculate loss on each item sold.

As small company they dont have the $ for a huge marketing campaign to enter the market, so they have to rely on customer feedback/Word of mouth.
With those fantasy prices they won't achieve either.

Starting is hard, really hard for a 'standard' start-up these days. And if you add the current entrepeneurial environment, with unreachable bank credit, it becomes harder, even.

But if you are introducing a worldwide new product, with the compulsory patents involved - you don't want to work for free for your potential competitors, big companies that can kick you out of the market in a couple months if you don't protect yourself - it's a burning hell. Twice a burning hell as Paccus has 2 patents on their products. The patent costs are outrageously high, as current Hawk price ;o). It's like the water drop torture: every month your patent agent will send you an email telling you about another over 2.000 euros payment or more for several yeras. And you CANNOT FORESEE the total amount of that worldwide patent costs because it depends on each and every country patent offices. What is OK and 'cheap' in Japan, may become a nightmare to get the patent for in Australia. Every patent office is likely to think different about your claims. And that means $$$$$$$$$$$$.

A real nightmare. I can tell.

Engadin.

[nearmiss]

Yeah, but why re-invent the wheel. Serious, if I wanted into the Joystick business I would review all I could find on the MSFT FF2. I would find who made them for MSFT, etc. The patent may also be nil now, because in the US they are only good for 17 years.

That is probably the most popular stick of all time, and people are still buying them and paying high prices on auction sites. A used one is worth more than they sold for new.

I've got one sitting on the shelf I take down every now and then. I wouldn't sell it for 4 times what I paid. I'm not too high on Forcefeedback, but it is a diversion every now and then.

One very important point... The first product has got to be viable, popular, with attractive price points. You build the business from there.

Very poor business to pioneer new unproven products.

[swiss]

Originally Posted by engadin

Starting is hard, really hard for a 'standard' start-up these days. And if you add the current entrepeneurial environment, with unreachable bank credit, it becomes harder, even.

But if you are introducing a worldwide new product, with the compulsory patents involved - you don't want to work for free for your potential competitors, big companies that can kick you out of the market in a couple months if you don't protect yourself - it's a burning hell. Twice a burning hell as Paccus has 2 patents on their products. The patent costs are outrageously high, as current Hawk price ;o). It's like the water drop torture: every month your patent agent will send you an email telling you about another over 2.000 euros payment or more for several yeras. And you CANNOT FORESEE the total amount of that worldwide patent costs because it depends on each and every country patent offices. What is OK and 'cheap' in Japan, may become a nightmare to get the patent for in Australia. Every patent office is likely to think different about your claims. And that means $$$$$$$$$$$$.

A real nightmare. I can tell.
Engadin.

You know why most start-ups die? Because their burn rate is way too high.
With the product Paccus offers I wouldn't worry too much about Chinese copies*, they sell a high end product made in Europe for niche market.
I would guess this market is good for a high 3digit number p.a., world wide...


*For two reasons:
- cannot sell enough items
- product is too complicated to set up a cheap production run

patents: If Chinese want to copy you - they will, protection of intellectual property does not exist in China.

[swiss]

I just thought about it - while their goal is correct, the way to get there is wrong.
Hydraulics are too complicated and too expensive - the future of FFB sticks probably lies in that technology with artificial muscles, anyone remember the robot bird using this technology which was linked in this forum recently?

[Zerotown]

Originally Posted by nearmiss

Yeah, but why re-invent the wheel. ... Very poor business to pioneer new unproven products.

A difficult decision indeed for every entrepreneur that tries something new. I guess Paccus might have looked at several different markets that would be viable for their technology. Their decision to focus on making a game-peripheral isn't strange when you think about it: they have technology that delivers a smooth FFB-experience, combined with very high accuracy. There's an existing market for it, in which die-hard simmers are willing to pay hard cash for top-quality products (though not €2400). I would probably do the same, since it's exiting to do. (But maybe I've just read to much 'Atlas Shrugged')

Originally Posted by swiss

Hydraulics are too complicated and too expensive - the future of FFB sticks probably lies in that technology with artificial muscles

Oi swiss.. Artificial muscles. Now that's what I would call complicated and expensive technology

[Sauf]

Originally Posted by Zerotown

Oi swiss.. Artificial muscles. Now that's what I would call complicated and expensive technology

Complicated and expensive technology? Nah, aren't all "female pleasure devices" artificial muscles? You do have a point with complicated though, I may be old fashioned but looking at some of them I end up scratching my head wondering how they use the buggers, no pun intended