diving extension/pitch-back

[JtD]

Not really a question of what performance did the plane have, but rather of what performance the pilot chose to get out of it. I'd be surprised if he went all out all the time for several reasons, but then I don't see any information about it, and I don't want to get involved in speculation.

However, I would want to warn anyone to draw and insist on general conclusions based on an anecdotal piece of evidence where parts of the most important information are missing. This hardly ever helps to clarify anything, yet often is very misleading.

[RegRag1977]

Originally Posted by JtD

Not really a question of what performance did the plane have, but rather of what performance the pilot chose to get out of it. I'd be surprised if he went all out all the time for several reasons, but then I don't see any information about it, and I don't want to get involved in speculation.

However, I would want to warn anyone to draw and insist on general conclusions based on an anecdotal piece of evidence where parts of the most important information are missing. This hardly ever helps to clarify anything, yet often is very misleading.

Hi JtD,

I just based my interpretation of performance on details like " I openend the throttle full", "a moment later exhaust smoke poured from the Spit as the pilot came after me", granted Johnson knows what he's talking about, being a succesful fighter pilot.

But it's clear that we would need more specific information to have a definite word on the subject. My point was just that perhaps the P47 could hold the fight against a Spitfire by using its advantages i.e. dive acceleration and top speed, better zoom climb performance.

And i must insist that i am not discussing a point here in order to change something in the game: that is not my purpose at all.

[BlackBerry]

And i must insist that i am not discussing a point here in order to change something in the game: that is not my purpose at all.

Il2 FB is a 10 years old game. And Cliff of Dover will be better in FM,DM etc. Isn't it? We shouldn't expect too much on an old game...

With regard to P47's pilot, Robert S. Johnson, he is so famous that easy to find his information.

http://acepilots.com/usaaf_rsj.html

1945, Robert was an ACE, but in 1943 April, he was indeed a rookie pilot in P47.

His first combat, first meeting Luftwaffe was may 14th 1943. What a rookie pilot was he at that time!

But on May 14th, he received his baptism of fire, a "ramrod" (bomber escort) over Antwerp, which the Germans usually defended. Three 16-plane squadrons of the 56th went up that day, to help shepherd a force of about thirty B-17s. As they flew over the Dutch coast, heavy flak opened up, ripping into the bombers flying at lower altitude. Hub Zemke, leading the flight, plunged after some bandits, with Johnson and the other two members of the flight "glued to his tail." Eight more German planes came after Zemke's flight, and the four Thunderbolts turned to meet them head on. The antagonists flashed by each other, firing, and Johnson's guns stuck in the 'ON' position despite his repeated flicking of the arming switch. As he hammered on the trigger and switches, trying to shut off his guns, two Focke-Wulfs passed through his bullet stream and were damaged. When Johnson finally got his guns off, he was alone. He had been constantly warned against this exact predicament, a novice pilot alone and at low altitude to boot.

Looking for friendly aircraft, he spotted eight blunt-nosed fighters and sped towards them, in hopes of joining up. His recognition skills needed work, because they were FW-190s. He firewalled the throttle and headed the other way. Keeping maximum speed all the way across the Channel, he gratefully landed, only to have Hub Zemke chew him out for undisciplined flying. It hadn't been Johnson's intention, but this mission began his reputation in the Group as a 'wild flier.'

Before his first combat,he failed in fighter pilot's gunnery test. Poor Robert. LoL

Later that month(May 1943), he and several other pilots who had not completed the fighter pilot's gunnery requirement, went to Goxhill (a miserable place, full of coal dust) for gunnery instruction. They practiced shooting at a towed target sleeve, but he never "got the hang of it," achieving a high score (against the sleeve) of 4.5%, below the requirement of 5%. Thus, the second highest scoring ace of the ETO never actually qualified as a fighter pilot! (And the top ace, Gabreski, had almost washed out of flight training in 1941.)

In April 1943, our rookie Johnson who has ZERO combat experience, beat a new spitfireIX(so probably 18lbs boost, not 15lbs) in a mock combat. The spitfireIX's pilot was a RAF pilot who was sent to The 56th Fighter Group airfield to teach those American(many of them without combat experience in ETO).

The RAF fliers helped orient them to combat in the ETO, and on one memorable day, Johnson out-maneuvered a Spitfire pilot,using the Thunderbolt's superior barrel-roll and diving capabilities to get behind the more agile Spitfire. Shortly, the Group moved over to Kings Cliffe airfield, and flew it first combat missions in mid-April, 1943.

Would RAF send rookie pilots without combat experience to orient Americans in ETO? It's an international joke. Even this joke is true. Robert Johnson was also a rookie pilot at that time. FairPlay.

My interpretation is that, in a 1v1 low altitude dogfight, an experienced RAF pilot flied new 18lbs boost SpifireIX, was beaten by a American rookie pilot in a P47C by the tactic named "dive extension/pitch back" before mid-April 1943 when 56th Fighter Group had never met Luftwaffe.

The Luftwaffe along english channel in April 1943, on the other hand, was elite. For example, JG26 "The Abbeville Boys".

But Johnson said" But coming out of a dive, there's not a British or a German fighter that can come close to a Thunderbolt rushing upward in a zoom. "

Thus we don't need to suspect the level of RAF's pilot. Imaging RAF pilot using only 60% throttle in zoom in that famous mock combat is also amusing.

[BlackBerry]

Similarly, a 9lbs boost Tempest MkV could outdive and outzoom a 18lb spitfire XIV, although both have 2000HP engine.

We know tempest slightly outdive/outzoom P47D, spitfireXIV slightly outdive/outzoom spitfireIX.


*http://www.hawkertempest.se/TacticalTrials.htm

In 1944 trials were made with the new Tempest Mk. V. The Tempest was fully compared with the nearest companion, the Typhoon IB. Tactical comparisons were also made with the Mustang III (P-51B), Spitfire XIV, Bf 109G and Fw 190. This is the report from the Air Fighting Development Unit at the R.A.F. station at Witter.
(Note: JN737, which was used for the tests, was a Tempest Mk. V Series I. version. I.e. without the spring-tab ailerons and the possibility to carry drop-tanks.)
...

...


Maximum Climb
The Tempest is not in the same class as the Spitfire XIV. The Tempest V however, has a considerably better zoom climb, holding a higher speed throughout the manoeuvre. If the climb is prolonged until climbing speed is reached, then, of course the Spitfire XIV will begin to catch and pull ahead.
*
Dive
The Tempest gains on the Spitfire XIV.

Interesting is that, in Raf Fighting Development Unit test in 1944, they found that Tempest hold high speed considerably better in zoom than spitfireXIV, but when speed drops to low to max climb speed, spitfireXIV will begin to catch up and then pull ahead(after sometime).

Very similar to Johnson's text about P47C vs SpitfireIX mock combat.

I estimate that 9lbs TempestMKV will beat a 18lbs SpitfireXIV with dive extension/pitch back tactic when spit is on tempest's 6 o'clock with same initial speed, same initial altitude,ie 1500m. Believe it or not.

Dive and zoom have different periods, a certain aircraft performance will vary at different period.

For example, 1943 Italy, p47 vs fw190g

(C)

(1) 10000 feet to 3000 feet, starting at 250 m.p.h., diving at angle of 65 degree with constant throttle setting. The FW-190 pulled away rapidly at the beginning but the P-47 passed it at 3000 ft with a much greater speed and had a decidedly better angle of pull out.

It is also possible that p47 outdives(better acceleration )spitfire at 400-800km/h speed range, but spitfire outdive or easier holding speed than p47 at 800-1000km/h.

On 5 February 1952, a Spitfire 19 of 81 Squadron based at Kai Tek in Hong Kong reached probably the highest altitude ever achieved by a Spitfire. The pilot, Flight Lieutenant Ted Powles,[123] was on a routine flight to survey outside-air temperature and report on other meteorological conditions at various altitudes in preparation for a proposed new air service through the area. He climbed to 50,000*ft (15,240*m) indicated altitude, with a true altitude of 51,550*ft (15,712*m). The cabin pressure fell below a safe level and, in trying to reduce altitude, he entered an uncontrollable dive which shook the aircraft violently. He eventually regained control somewhere below 3,000*ft (900*m) and landed safely with no discernible damage to his aircraft. Evaluation of the recorded flight data suggested that, in the dive, he achieved a speed of 690*mph (1,110*km/h, Mach*0.96), which would have been the highest speed ever reached by a propeller-driven aircraft, but it has been speculated this figure resulted from inherent instrument errors.[120]
That any operational aircraft off the production line, cannons sprouting from its wings and warts and all, could readily be controlled at this speed when the early jet aircraft such as Meteors, Vampires, P-80s, etc, could not, was certainly extraordinary.
Jeffrey Quill [124]
The critical Mach number of the Spitfire's original elliptical wing was higher than the subsequently-used laminar-flow-section, straight-tapering-planform wing of the follow-on Supermarine Spiteful, Seafang and Attacker, illustrating that Reginald Mitchell's practical engineering approach to the problems of high-speed flight had paid off.[125]

1)climb extension/pitch back : works fine in il2

2)dive extension/pitch back: works bad in il2


Sad news for allied P47,P51 and Tempest. Hope cliff of Dover bring us more accurate allied aircrafts.

Those lighter/small propeller Russian aircrafts should answer for their design style in boom and zoom.