Here it is... the Teana Open!

[Lord Ludwig]

Originally Posted by Zechnophobe

Actually that brings up a good question. Does the executioner win if the Chosha dies, but the gobots kill him? Because the executioner would be completely unable to kill gobots, especially in multiple stacks.

Very good point, it seems some deeper calculations are in order here. I asked myself what should happen in a situation like the one you describe, with only summoned units surviving, but thought it wasn't happening in any fight. Now if the situation was "real" we should have either both "teams" out, or the gobots advancing instead of the chosha, but I think in the spirit of the game the chosha would, so to say, be raised to live and fight another day (only one, because anyway there's a green dragon hanging above his future).

[TemjinGold]

I think the fairest way is to ask what happens when you win in the game with only summoned units left in your army. Does the game consider this a "win" for Amelie or are you summoned to King Frederick? I've never had this happen to me so I honestly don't know...

[MaroonMaurader]

I just checked using Mystic Egg - if all you have left are summoned units, you win, stay where you are, and the enemy army vanishes.

[Lord Ludwig]

Originally Posted by TemjinGold

I think the fairest way is to ask what happens when you win in the game with only summoned units left in your army. Does the game consider this a "win" for Amelie or are you summoned to King Frederick? I've never had this happen to me so I honestly don't know...

I don't think that matters much. We are not thinking in game terms here, like player A wielding unit x against player B wielding unit y, that would lead to too many further variables (spellbook, items, class and so no). If the tournament was a real "arena" with the survivor going on, then logic would lead to both dying and being eliminated. A bit like the fight between Thor and Jormungand in the Ragnarok of Snorri, where the thunder god kills the world serpent but seconds later is killed by its poisonous breath. For the fun of the tournament however I would prefer to think of the chosha being resurrected. I still think however - will try to do further calculations - that the executioner wins, so no need yet to go resurrecting.

I also made some further inquiry into the vampire-royal thorn issue and indeed once germination is properly calculated there seems to be no room for doubt. If they just stood next to each other from the start the vampire would do a damage going from a minimum of 4 to a maximum - on critical - of 12, thus it would take him anywhere from 30 to 90 rounds to kill the RT. The RT does at least 30 damage, so it needs at most 40 thorns to finish the job (and 70 could do it on there own without the RT having to risk anything) and he can get them in at most 3 germinations, thus at round 7. All that without considering that the vampire does not start next to the RT, and can't risk going bat to close distance, because two hits by the RT would certainly kill him in batform. It seems indeed settled... Now will things be different for the Ancient Vampire?

[Lord Ludwig]

Calculating the chosha-executioner match exactly is not easy, but I come to the conclusion it takes the executioner, on average, about 6 rounds to kill the chosha, while the chosha takes 10. The executioner does an average damage of about 31 considering A/D ratio, a crit of 50, can throw in murdering for 45-48 so 6 rounds is all it takes, with a critical it could be 5. The chosha can delay by calling in gobots, and the executioner has to kill them right away because they can outrun him. He will kill them in one blow, and the turn he doesn't strike the chosha the chosha doesn't hit him either, so it's just delaying. A question could be however if the gobots can move away in the same turn thy were summoned and thus keep distance killing the executioner slowly from a distance. Then we would have the "both contestants killed" scenario.

The above calculations do not consider counterstrike, which means they both go down even quicker. If the summoned gobots can indeed escape the chosha would do well to defend instead of attacking.

Does someone have evidence about the gobots managing to sneak away?

[MaroonMaurader]

I think it comes down a few features of the map. If the Chosha start such that at least one space adjacent to them is 5 or more steps away from where the Executioners start, the first gobot spawned will get away before the executioner can close the gap.

If the Chosha start with at least one space adjacent to them 7 or more steps away from the executioners, the executioners have to use up their run ability to prevent a second set of gobots from getting away. This is a typical map distance, so I'll assume this is true.

If the Chosha start with open space on at least 5 sides, they can spawn Gobots on the opposite side from wherever the Executioner stands - in which case further gobots can escape as the fight goes on. If they start on a wall or in a corner, then no further gobots get away. Typically a solo unit will start on a wall or corner, so I'll also assume this is true.

So in a typical match-up, the executioners have to waste their run ability killing the second set of gobots, and the first get away cleanly. The executioners can then kill the chosha, but with speed 2, initiative 5 they're never going to catch speed 3, initiative 6 adult gobots; the AG can whittle them down and eventually win.

[Zechnophobe]

Gobots have 7 initiative. Executioners have 2 move (4 on first turn) and something like 4 init? 3? I don't recall at the moment. There is no way that first round of gobots would not get away. In fact, on most maps I can recall it is very unlikely the executioners would even get to melee range on turn two either, meaning that gobots would become adults, move away, and attack outside the executioners range.

Also, did you take into account the 'feasting' ability of the Chosha, to gain back ~50 life? (Without retaliation).

I think this is a lot harder combat for the executioners than it looks.

[Lord Ludwig]

As I said, what happens in the campaign is not really relevant, or at least not decisive. I think it's best to follow through with the tennis analogy so, if the executioner kills the chosha but is subsequently killed by the gobots, I guess it's like a tennis player winning his match but then giving forfeit due to excessive fatigue or injury. There are proposals to grant the losing player a ticket for the next round, but at present in pro tennis the next opponent just gets a walkover. So I guess the green dragon won't have to fight his 4th round. Anyway, I suppose there's no doubt the EGD would rip both the chosha and the executioner to pieces.

So here is the fourth round:

Black Dragon (1) 3
Alchemist (16) 0

Ancient Ent (9) 3
Bone Dragon (8 ) 0


Ancient Vampire (28 ) 1
Royal Thorn (12) 3

bye (see discussion)
Green Dragon (4)



Red Dragon (3) 3
Royal Griffin (14) 0

Ogre (11) 0
Archdemon (6) 3


Cyclops (7) 3
Troll (10) 0

Demon (15) 0
T-Rex (2) 3

Only one result against ranking - just. The ancient ent ranked 9 defeats easily (at least so I see it) the bone dragon thanks above all to its poison resistance. Keeping distance fails against swarm. Also only one slightly uncertain result. The ancient vampire can beat the royal thorn, but would have to be extraordinarily lucky to do so. First of all, if he goes to bat form to close distance, he risks to be killed right away before shapeshifting again in two blows if the RT scores one critical. So there is about a 35% chance that the fight is over before it starts. If the AV can get near the RT he does about 8 to 15 points of damage, 22 on a critical, thus he needs about 30 rounds on average to finish off the RT, 17 at minimum if scoring an extremely unlikely row of criticals. The RT needs at least 104 thorns to finish of the AV (immune to criticals while not in bat form), 116 if he wants to play it safe. he can get those numbers respectively at round 16 and 19 if he's unlucky, at 10 and 13 if he's lucky. Thus the combination of an extremely lucky AV with an extremely unlucky RT could give the win to the AV, but - unless I am again wrong - the chance of this happening is so close to 0 as not being distinguishable.

[TemjinGold]

Wait, shouldn't the AV be killing off the thorns as they're getting summoned (and sneaking in hits on the RT in between)?

[dashcunning]

The royal thorn generates, on average, 28 thorns (warrior or hunter) every 3 turns. The AV can kill, on average, 9 warriors or 15 hunters every 3 turns. Not even close to keeping up.

It's a bit of a shame both vampires ran into and got offed by the same thing that their gimmicks (regen and high init/speed no retaliation) wouldn't help against. Otherwise they were capable of beating any sufficiently slow melee. Guess it doesn't matter that much as they would have been dominated by a dragon eventually.