TBF Avenger and other planes

[Derda508]

Not counting my personal preferences, but what is 'needed' most I would opt for an early British bomber, a late Japanese Torpedobomber and, most of all, the Me 210/410.
That said, in my opinion the biggest obstacle for 'realistic' late war bomber intercept missions (no matter which theater) is AI behaviour. At present, if you try to attack a big formation of bombers with a small number of attackers, the protecting fighters will all immediately go for you, leave their bombers and chase you all over the map, even if you spend all your ammo and are no threat anymore. Your own AI (even obsolete Bf 110) will not go for a quick attack on a bomber, but happily engage in turnfights with vastly superior numbers of enemy fighters.
To create more 'realistic' bomber intercepts and survivable missions for destroyers the missionbuilder would need to be able to give several commands for attackers and defenders:
Blue high flying fighters (Bf-109, Ki-100 etc.): Attack fighters only
Blue bomber interceptors (Me 410, FW-190, Ki 84 etc.): Attack bombers only
Red fighter cover: Stick to the bombers, never get further than XXX distance from them.

I have no idea whether this is possible and I am well aware that AI programming is extremly difficult (and far beyond my abilities).
And, please don´t get me wrong: In my opinion Il-2 1946 AI is still by far the best of all flight sims I know. And I am perfectly sure that in terms of maps and planeset, all other sims will just reach a small fraction of what we can enjoy here.

[majorfailure]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

So far, we've got just two theaters of the air war covered more or less adequately - Eastern Front and Pacific Carrier Ops. Even then, there are some gaps in the Order of Battle and some mistakes and omissions on the maps.

Eastern front is main focus of IL2-and thus logically pretty complete (And mostly fun, though early war is hard on Russian side and late war not easy as Germans.)

Pacific carrier ops is complete, if you don't want to go too late in the war. Later on a capable flyable torpedo/dive bomber is missing on both sides.

Med theather is pretty playable IMHO, too - if you are not too picky and can live with wrong Beau variant, replacing a few planes with similar ones(e .g. Baltimore repaced by a-20/B-25) a missing Hurri IId and a few others. And IMHO it still is the theatre that ages best, from the beginning almost up to the end of the invasion of Italy it is balanced on terms of individual performance, the Italian/German planeset just fits nearly perfectly to their Brit/American counterparts. Though maps for that theatre would not hurt, or are rather obviously missing.

[gaunt1]

Originally Posted by majorfailure

Eastern front is main focus of IL2-and thus logically pretty complete

Apart from the fact that a german bomber player is forced to fly 1940/41 He-111 and Ju-88 versions even in 1943... Or missing important Bf-110 variants (C4, F2)

From pacific, I think the most important would be the Helldiver, a flyable B-25C, and a D3A2

[Furio]

Originally Posted by majorfailure

Pacific carrier ops is complete, if you don't want to go too late in the war. Later on a capable flyable torpedo/dive bomber is missing on both sides.

Med theather is pretty playable IMHO...

Of these two, I would definitely opt for the Med. After 1943, Japanese carriers didn’t play any meaningful role, and the chances for an attacking JNAF torpedo bomber, even land based, were so slim that the only viable way to continue fighting was the extreme measure of “special attack”. I don’t think any player would opt for a torpedo or bomber JNAF career ending with a suicide attack.

Expanding Mediterranean theatre could result in interesting scenarios and career. An Italian pilot will start on the blue side, and could switch to red after September 8th 1943. Italian Co-Belligerent Air Force flew mainly Spitfire V, P39Q and Martin Baltimore… And just the latter would be needed.

[majorfailure]

Originally Posted by Furio

Of these two, I would definitely opt for the Med. After 1943, Japanese carriers didn’t play any meaningful role, and the chances for an attacking JNAF torpedo bomber, even land based, were so slim that the only viable way to continue fighting was the extreme measure of “special attack”. I don’t think any player would opt for a torpedo or bomber JNAF career ending with a suicide attack.

Expanding Mediterranean theatre could result in interesting scenarios and career. An Italian pilot will start on the blue side, and could switch to red after September 8th 1943. Italian Co-Belligerent Air Force flew mainly Spitfire V, P39Q and Martin Baltimore… And just the latter would be needed.

And while no perfect solution, with a little creative leeway, an A-20 could be used as a substitute - should be close enough. Maps would still be needed. With maybe Sicily and another North Africa map, which I think were posted here as WIP this could go a long way. And there was an absolutely fun campaign playing Battle of Malta using some Japanese islands. So Malta map would be a real treat - and that battle lasted for quite some time.

[Furio]

Originally Posted by majorfailure

And while no perfect solution, with a little creative leeway, an A-20 could be used as a substitute - should be close enough. Maps would still be needed. With maybe Sicily and another North Africa map, which I think were posted here as WIP this could go a long way. And there was an absolutely fun campaign playing Battle of Malta using some Japanese islands. So Malta map would be a real treat - and that battle lasted for quite some time.

The glass nose type is possibly one of the best substitutes ever. Surely it would do for mission builders, but what about offline dynamic campaigns? Does Il2 allow substitutes?

[sniperton]

Originally Posted by Furio

The glass nose type is possibly one of the best substitutes ever. Surely it would do for mission builders, but what about offline dynamic campaigns? Does Il2 allow substitutes?

Sure, it's a common practice in DCG campaigns. You only need a hack skin and voilá, you have an R-10 as a Ba.65, or an IK-3 as a D.520.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by majorfailure

And while no perfect solution, with a little creative leeway, an A-20 could be used as a substitute - should be close enough.

More A-20 variants are needed, period. It was one of the most ubiquitous planes of the war, serving with multiple air forces from 1940-45 (and beyond) on all fronts.

The DB-7 would be an excellent choice for an early war French bomber since it saw service in North Africa as well as France.

The DB-7A/Boston II would be a good choice for a mid-war British medium bomber (although the choice of British light and medium bomber types is huge).

Havoc I would be a good choice for an early British night fighter.

The DB-7C/Boston III was used by the Australians, British and the Soviets.

Lend-Lease A-20C were fitted with Soviet guns, ordinance and turrets.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by sniperton

Sure, it's a common practice in DCG campaigns. You only need a hack skin and voilá, you have an R-10 as a Ba.65, or an IK-3 as a D.520.

It almost never looks right, though.

Looking at the number of "hack" skins gives you a pretty good indicator of the sort of planes that mission builders actually want for the game.

Ba.65
D.520
Ki-44
Sunderland
Lancaster
Gloster Meteor

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Furio

Of these two, I would definitely opt for the Med. After 1943, Japanese carriers didn’t play any meaningful role

That's where the tension of IL2 as a "sandbox sim" - useable in many different ways - begins to show.

Some people want non-historical missions where the Axis and the Allies are evenly matched until 1945 and beyond, complete with "what if" designs which never made it beyond the prototype stage.

Some people want historical missions where after 1943 it becomes a curb-stomp for the Allies.

Both groups are correct, but who are you going to develop content for?

Originally Posted by Furio

I don’t think any player would opt for a torpedo or bomber JNAF career ending with a suicide attack.

There are a few campaigns that end that way. And, if you don't like that outcome you just take off, fly around a bit, land again and say that you've completed the mission to finish the campaign. (Realistically, that could happen - sometimes kamikazes couldn't find their targets and had to return to base.)

Originally Posted by Furio

Expanding Mediterranean theatre could result in interesting scenarios and career. An Italian pilot will start on the blue side, and could switch to red after September 8th 1943. Italian Co-Belligerent Air Force flew mainly Spitfire V, P39Q and Martin Baltimore… And just the latter would be needed.

The problem here is that IL2 doesn't allow you to switch sides in the middle of a campaign. You'd need two different campaigns.