Curious...Why is this game so hard to get right?

[AbortedMan]

Originally Posted by jf1981

Hey AM you're not mixing up IAS with TAS righht ?
If you can reach 315 mph TAS at rated alt it does'nt mean you'll reach that TAS at ground level (woud be close rom IAS then).

Either way, the climb rate vs the 109 is garbage. Whether it's accurate or not, it makes for a *horrible* gaming experience.

There are certain games where it's fun no matter what, even if there is no reward for losing, imo...for example GTA 4, crazy stuff happens and whether you die, lose the match, lose the objective, it's still fun to watch...Team Fortress 2, it's hilariously funny when you die, they make it an experience with nemesis, snapshots, funny death animations and sounds. I've grown out of these games, and yes, I'm somewhat comparing apples to oranges, but the concept of entertainment is still valid.

In CloD, when you get pilot killed from the first round out of that 109's machine gun that you just watched pull away from you, skyrocket into almost vertical climb and Immelmann back (all starting from a co-alt contact engagement) with equal energy as you...after 25 minutes of climbing to 18,000ft, flight navigation and sweeping the channel, and planning with teammates...it's not fun. Correction, it's decent fun when you do all that stuff and it happens a couple times a day, but ask any Red pilot, it happens at least 10 times a day. To everyone. Frustration takes over and it goes from "oh he got me that time" to "OK, what am I doing wrong" to "HOW IS THIS A SIMULATION PEOPLE PAID FOR?!?!" I've been a witness to this frustration first-hand and watched even the most solemn and skilled players in the last two days lose their cool.

/rant

[Warhound]

Originally Posted by AbortedMan

Correction, it's decent fun when you do all that stuff and it happens a couple times a day, but ask any Red pilot, it happens at least 10 times a day.

To me this is not true.
I've flow red alot and yes 109's are faster and outclimb you, but that doesn't mean they get an automatic kill.
Just keep an eye on him, without trying to follow him up.
Stay level or in a shallow climb and wait for him to come down again, then turn into him and force him to turn or go back up.
Just keep doing this untill he loses patience and/or makes a mistake.
Often they'll even stall and spin out at the top of their hammerhead and hand you the advantage on a platter.

Without being an ace pilot (which I certainly am not!) you can even keep 2 109's occupied in this way, spiralling down while dragging them along and giving your teammates a perfect opportunity to attack em.
And yes some will decide it's not worth it when you start throwing lead their way and run off...but that's just fine.
Fly away while keeping an eye on them and look for the next, easier target.

Flying like this I always end up with a higher kills than deaths ratio.
Rarely get PK'd, except by one certain 109 pilot who hasn't been online in weeks. More often than not the plane will be falling apart while I'm still alive.
I know many red pilots complain these days, but I just can't agree with them.. especially now red got 100oct planes that are faster than before.
They seem to want the old days of total spit IIa superioirty back but that's just not going to happen, nor was it historical.

[kendo65]

Warhound
What you describe as the current situation doesn't sound anything like I've read in any 'historical' account of the BoB either.

In fact, if that is the current situation online then it sounds like a total travesty of reality, with people 'gaming' the game.

Fair enough if that's what floats your boat and an understandable (unavoidable even) strategy for the 'competitively minded', online player if the FMs aren't accurate enough to make more reality-based tactics worthwhile.

I suppose my perspective (on combat flight sims) has always been about being able to recreate history as truthfully and accurately as possible, so the above account of what the game is like now doesn't sit well with me. In fact what is the point of finely modelled aircraft systems and detailed cockpits if the aircraft performance is a parody of the real thing?

I know people will say that it is work in progress, and there is truth to that, but it has been WIP for a long time now and progress on this (and many other fronts) is painfully slow. I suppose I've been on the verge of just writing this whole thing off for some time now. There is a point where you need to conclude that what you had looked forward to for so long just isn't going to be realised.

[5./JG27.Farber]

Originally Posted by kendo65

In fact, if that is the current situation online then it sounds like a total travesty of reality, with people 'gaming' the game.

You mean everyones an Ace? There not gaming the game, there flying their aircraft at what it does best. Thats what pilots are supposed to do when their not terrorfied or inexperienced. Thats one of the problems with online flying, nearly everyone is an Ace. Its the pinicle of top fighter vs top fighter.

Can you imagine if people only had 10 hours flight training like some BoB British pilots?

[Verhängnis]

Originally Posted by AbortedMan

Why is it so hard for 1C to get the RAF speeds and flight models right? The numbers are all over the internet and various other historical references.

A simple reference to the source that you, the CloD developers, took from and modeled this information into the game would be all that is needed to assuage the raging frustration from players...or just simply state that you "have not created a flight simulation, but a representation of a world where the WWII aerial theater never happened as it did."

This is getting ridiculous.

Now to put these sort of posts hopefully to an end, here is the flight model and engine model from an aircraft in IL-2 1946:
And yet Oleg himself stated that the models in CoD are calculated at many many more points, and these calculations are also more complicated...

[Aircraft]
  Type 1
  Crew 1
  Wingspan 8.11
  Length 6.38
  Seaplane 0
  Canard 0
  Jet 0
  JetHiV 0
[Mass]
  Empty 639.0
  TakeOff 880.0
  Oil 14.5
  Fuel 246.0
[Controls]
  CAileron 1
  CAileronTrim 0
  CElevator 1
  CElevatorTrim 0
  CRudder 1
  CRudderTrim 0
  CFlap 0
  CFlapPos 2
  CDiveBrake 0
  CInterceptor 0
  CEngine 1
  CVectoredThrust 0
  CUndercarriage 0
  CLockTailwheel 1
  CStabilizer 0
  CArrestorHook 0
  CWingFold 0
  CCockpitDoor 0
  DefaultAileronTrim -0.021
  DefaultElevatorTrim -0.12
  DefaultRudderTrim -0.098
[Squares]
  Wing 22.67
  Aileron 1.5
  Flap 1.0
  Stabilizer 1.5
  Elevator 1.2
  Keel 0.9
  Rudder 0.83
  Wing_In 3.78
  Wing_Mid 3.78
  Wing_Out 3.78
  AirbrakeCxS 0.0
[Arm]
  Aileron 3.18
  Flap 1.0
  Stabilizer 4.2
  Keel 4.3
  Elevator 4.55
  Rudder 4.78
  Wing_In 1.31
  Wing_Mid 1.0
  Wing_Out 3.5
  Wing_V 0.0
  GCenter -0.05
  GCenterZ 0.00
  GC_AOA_Shift 0.20
  GC_Flaps_Shift 0.10
  GC_Gear_Shift -0.15
[Toughness]
  AroneL 50
  AroneR 50
  CF 200
  Engine1 30
  Engine2 30
  Engine3 30
  Engine4 30
  GearL2 200
  GearR2 200
  Keel1 30
  Keel2 50
  Nose 100
  Oil 50
  Rudder1 50
  Rudder2 50
  StabL 50
  StabR 50
  Tail1 150
  Tail2 150
  Turret1B 30
  Turret2B 30
  Turret3B 30
  Turret4B 30
  Turret5B 30
  Turret6B 30
  VatorL 50
  VatorR 50
  WingLIn 100
  WingLMid 90
  WingLOut 50
  WingRIn 100
  WingRMid 90
  WingROut 50
  Flap01 30
  Flap02 30
  Flap03 30
  Flap04 30
[Engine]
  Engine0Family Hispano-Suiza 8:SE5_FM
  Engine0SubModel Be
[Gear]
  H 1.54
  Pitch 16.8
  SinkFactor 500.0
[Params]
  CriticalAOA 16.00
  CriticalCy 01.50
  CriticalAOAFlap 15.50
  CriticalCyFlap 01.65
  SpinTailAlpha 17.00
  SpinCxLoss 0.06
  SpinCyLoss 0.03
  Vyfac 1.0
  Tfac 1.1
  Vmin 100.0
  Vmax 200.0
  VmaxAllowed 285.0
  VmaxH 230.0
  HofVmax 3500.0
  VminFLAPS 75.0
  VmaxFLAPS 250.0
  Vz_climb 15.0
  V_climb 260.0
  T_turn 18.0
  V_turn 300.0
  K_max 11.0
  Cy0_max 0.15
  FlapsMult 1.0
  FlapsAngSh 4.0
  Range 483.0
  CruiseSpeed 180.0
  SensYaw 0.4
  SensPitch 0.62
  SensRoll 0.5
[Polares]
  lineCyCoeff 0.087
  AOAMinCx_Shift 0.0
  Cy0_0 0.13
  AOACritH_0 16.0
  AOACritL_0 -16.0
  CyCritH_0 1.3
  CyCritL_0 -0.7
  CxMin_0 0.0305
  parabCxCoeff_0 4.3E-4
  Cy0_1 0.58
  AOACritH_1 14.0
  AOACritL_1 -20.0
  CyCritH_1 1.45
  CyCritL_1 -0.7
  CxMin_1 0.076
  parabCxCoeff_1 6.2E-4
  parabAngle 10.0
  Decline 0.002
  maxDistAng 38.0
  draw_graphs 0
[SOUND]
  Engine Std

[Generic]
  Type Inline
  Autonomous 1
  Cylinders 8
  Carburetor 2
  Direction Right
  TowFactor 1.0
  PropMass 150.0
  EngineI 1.0
  EngineAcceleration 6.0
  Extinguishers 0
  CompressorType 1
  CompressorSteps 2
  AfterburnerType 0
  MixerType 1
  cThrottle 1
  cAfterburner 0
  cProp 1
  cMix 0
  cMagneto 1
  cCompressor 1
  cFeather 0
  cRadiator 1
  TESPEED 0.01
  TWATERMAXRPM 95
  TOILINMAXRPM 70
  TOILOUTMAXRPM 99
  MAXRPMTIME 280
  MINRPMTIME 999
  TWATERMAX 135
  TWATERMIN 60
  TOILMAX 105
  TOILMIN 40
  SoundName Bristol-Mercury
  PropName middle
  StartStopName bristol-hercules
[Be]
  Carburetor 3
  HorsePowers 220
  BoostFactor 1.1
  Thrust 0
  PropMass 15.0
  EngineAcceleration 2.0
  cRadiator 0
  cProp 0
  RPMMin 440
  RPMNom 2300
  RPMMax 2750
  RPMMaxAllowed 3320
  Reductor 0.75
  PropDiameter 2.8
  PropAnglerType 0
  PropAnglerSpeed 0.06
  PropAnglerMinParam 900
  PropAnglerMaxParam 2750
  PropPhiMin 25.0
  PropPhiMax 25.0
  PropAoA0 11.0
  CompressorPMax 1.5
  CompressorAltitude0 4200.0
  CompressorMultiplier0 1.00
  CompressorRPMP0 1800.0
  CompressorRPMPMax 2750.0
  CompressorMaxATARPM 1.5
  CompressorSpeedManifold 0.5
  CompressorRPM0 400
  CompressorATA0 0.65
  DisP0x 2550
  DisP0y 0
  DisP1x 0
  DisP1y 140
  BOOSTFACTOR 1.0
  TESPEED 0.01
  TWATERMAXRPM 90
  TOILINMAXRPM 65
  TOILOUTMAXRPM 97
  MAXRPMTIME 280
  MINRPMTIME 999
  TWATERMAX 115
  TWATERMIN 60
  TOILMAX 130
  TOILMIN 40

And then we can take a look in the java files, and we have a plethora of calculations that all work together, this one being a rather simple example for engine inertia:

 public void setFricCoeffT(float f)
    {
        fricCoeffT = f;
    }

    private float getFrictionMoment(float f)
    {
        float f1 = 0.0F;
        if(bIsInoperable || stage == 0 || controlMagneto == 0)
        {
            fricCoeffT += 0.1F * f;
            if(fricCoeffT > 1.0F)
                fricCoeffT = 1.0F;
            float f2 = w * _1_wMax;
            f1 = (-fricCoeffT * (6F + 3.8F * f2) * (propI + engineI)) / f;
            float f3 = (-0.99F * w * (propI + engineI)) / f;
            if(f1 < f3)
                f1 = f3;
        } else
        {
            fricCoeffT = 0.0F;
        }
        return f1;
    }

    private float getJetFrictionMoment(float f)
    {
        float f1 = 0.0F;
        if(bIsInoperable || stage == 0)
            f1 = (-0.002F * w * (propI + engineI)) / f;
        return f1;
    }

So take all of that, complicate a few times and this is what the devs are dealing with, the 3d model has no effect on the flight dynamics. So I am sure you can imagine just what they are working with here.