how are these 109s turns 180 with out penalties?

[SlipBall]

Originally Posted by SQB

Regarding the original post... Sounds like you were versing AI or playing on singleplayer. For some reason AI can roll at light speed and have all sorts of physics-breaking maneuvers.

That makes sense, the 109 is very difficult to master, except for our friend AI

[Attila]

in my opinion the FM and DM is more worse after the last patch! Before in a 109 you had a good chance to outclimb a Hurri and after the Hurri was stalling or turn away you had the option to dive on the Hurri! After the patch there was no chance to do that!
The DM from the Spit is overmodeled i think! I have never made it to shoot a Spits wing away, what is no problem to do it on a Hurri. The 109 is made of paper on this DM! Thats what i think about it!

[Jugdriver]

The most deadly flack seems to be friendly flack.. I have been knocked down and killed more by friendly flack than enemy flack…

The 109 has the ability to dictate the fight from an equal energy start against a Spit 1, 1a and even the Rotol (but you have to be very careful against the Rotol as a mistake will most likely get you shot down). That however is not to say that you can just jump in a 109 and whack Spits and Hurris at will. The 109 has to be flown with discipline and extended turn fights leave you extremely vulnerable. When I fly the 109 on ATAG I tend to stick with quick bounces and maintain my energy and avoid prolonged turning duels, whereas when I am flying the Rotol I try and get the 109 driver to engage in a turn fight as this levels the playing field quickly.

JD
AKA_MattE

[bw_wolverine]

Originally Posted by recoilfx

Wolverine, I used to fly RAF exclusively, then I switched to the 109 for the challenge, I have flown for both sides.

I am not sure why you are offended though. I have stated that the 109 is a better plane in the game at the right hands, so if a red pilot can consistently out fly me I know that he is a better pilot (not comparing to Spit IIa).

Brit planes ARE easier to pick up, but 109 has more potentials to exploit, for the reasons I've already stated, i don't think I am wrong in any of that (Yes, I know that the Hurricane doesn't have great rear view, but you must have realize the 109 suffers the same?).

If you think that 109s are that much superior and as easy to master, please, come fly with us. As you may have noticed, red pilots almost always outnumber us blue pilots on ATAG. We are not born to fly one sided after all.

I'm not offended. I'm frustrated and venting a little. It's not personally at you or anyone.

109 is not easy. Never said that. 109 has great potential above that of Ia and Hurri. I shoot down my share of 109s, but usually not the ones flown by competent pilots. And the 109 view on your six is significantly better, at least in my opinion. The rear armour slants backwards leaving you much better high six viewing. The hurricane rear view is a big steel wall that makes checking your own six nearly useless. I'd use the mirror but...exactly.

The biggest part of my frustration comes from blue pilots saying 'it's not hard, fly to your strengths, and the fight is equal'. Yes, absolutely. If I fly at 15k ft and dive only on targets that I have an advantage over, I will kill and not be killed for quite a while. This will not give me much action though. It will also leave all the ground targets undefended.

Flying to the strengths of the Red aircraft basically leaves our targets open for business to attacking bombers. Engaging a 109 co-alt is almost always a death wish. Running from a 109 co-alt is a death wish. Diving from a 109 co-alt is a death wish. You need the height. Baring that, you hope for a head on pass that doesn't kill you...wait, he's got nearly 0 convergence and cannon rounds. ARG!

It's very difficult if you've not followed good procedure and done your homework on when and where to engage. That's GREAT! I love that it's like that. But it's FRUSTRATING because that method of play means Red will lose the map. Until bombers attacking the targets start flying in at 10k+, Red will continue to mostly be bait for 109s. Unless you don't care about winning or losing the map, which some people don't - they just want to get in and kill hun.

We win sometimes, but only when we're lucky enough to have dedicated bomber pilots like Tonka or Torian flying red and systematically throwing blenheims at the charnel house that is France.

To be clear, I don't think the real problem here is flight models or what have you. I think the problem is that the mission setup on ATAG forces Red players who want to play for the mission to fly to their weaknesses and not their strengths and more often than not it results in being shot down.

The only thing we could really try, I think, to level things up is to start bombing from altitude, but with maybe two blenheims at a time trying to put it in the pickle barrel, I think that would take more time to hit the targets than there is time in the mission.

So when I get frustrated or pissed off about blues bragging upon winning a map its because they've already got Red by the short and curlys the moment the map starts.

I've seen plenty of skill in dogfights. I've yet to see skill win the map. It's either luck or time.

[recoilfx]

Originally Posted by bw_wolverine

I'm not offended. I'm frustrated and venting a little. It's not personally at you or anyone.

109 is not easy. Never said that. 109 has great potential above that of Ia and Hurri. I shoot down my share of 109s, but usually not the ones flown by competent pilots. And the 109 view on your six is significantly better, at least in my opinion. The rear armour slants backwards leaving you much better high six viewing. The hurricane rear view is a big steel wall that makes checking your own six nearly useless. I'd use the mirror but...exactly.

The biggest part of my frustration comes from blue pilots saying 'it's not hard, fly to your strengths, and the fight is equal'. Yes, absolutely. If I fly at 15k ft and dive only on targets that I have an advantage over, I will kill and not be killed for quite a while. This will not give me much action though. It will also leave all the ground targets undefended.

Flying to the strengths of the Red aircraft basically leaves our targets open for business to attacking bombers. Engaging a 109 co-alt is almost always a death wish. Running from a 109 co-alt is a death wish. Diving from a 109 co-alt is a death wish. You need the height. Baring that, you hope for a head on pass that doesn't kill you...wait, he's got nearly 0 convergence and cannon rounds. ARG!

It's very difficult if you've not followed good procedure and done your homework on when and where to engage. That's GREAT! I love that it's like that. But it's FRUSTRATING because that method of play means Red will lose the map. Until bombers attacking the targets start flying in at 10k+, Red will continue to mostly be bait for 109s. Unless you don't care about winning or losing the map, which some people don't - they just want to get in and kill hun.

We win sometimes, but only when we're lucky enough to have dedicated bomber pilots like Tonka or Torian flying red and systematically throwing blenheims at the charnel house that is France.

To be clear, I don't think the real problem here is flight models or what have you. I think the problem is that the mission setup on ATAG forces Red players who want to play for the mission to fly to their weaknesses and not their strengths and more often than not it results in being shot down.

The only thing we could really try, I think, to level things up is to start bombing from altitude, but with maybe two blenheims at a time trying to put it in the pickle barrel, I think that would take more time to hit the targets than there is time in the mission.

So when I get frustrated or pissed off about blues bragging upon winning a map its because they've already got Red by the short and curlys the moment the map starts.

I've seen plenty of skill in dogfights. I've yet to see skill win the map. It's either luck or time.

Please remember that blue pilots who say "fly your best, reds, we are equal" are your 109 pilots who haven't learned the 109s effectively enough yet, so yes, they are really equal to the reds Those few who have master the 109s will readily admit that their ride is superior.

Also, this is exactly what happens with Boom and Zoom vs Turn n Burn. Historically (and in games) BnZ tends to come out ahead. My only advice is to convert to the dark side You are now hampered by your plane, time to expand.

About the Flaks, we blues get taken down just as much. Flying once or twice on the other side doesn't really give you a good picture. Half of my abandons have been due to flaks.

As for winning the mission - really currently it depends on how many bomber pilots each side has, and how closely knitted the teams are on comms. As I have observed, bomber runs from both sides are kamikaze runs. If they reach their target, they either get taken down by flak or succumb to fighters on the way back.

[Ernst]

The blue are less affected by flak because they have the high energy doctrine. Flying at high speeds over the enemy territory turn them less vulnerable to enemy anti air.

The reds has little excuse to turn and burn, and go to low speed fights were they are more vulnerable.

Always when i was shot down i argue myself. What i do wrong? Most o f the cases the answer is that i spent to much time in a fight and lost my SA trying to counter a single ac a get shot by another ac.

If you ask i am a pilot who fly better with a wingman. Acctualy my squad mate are busy but we were very succesfull in many virtual war like il2.org.ru using teamwork tactics. One of the tactics we would like to use is to send 2 or 4 fighters ahead over the target at very high altitude while the bomber climb to bombing altitude in a safe area. Once there we track for enemies. Our main objective is simply obligate the enemy leave the area or dive for safe. We put them in a defensive situation. Shot them down is not realy necessary. We dive over and obligate them to go to a low energy condition (diving to base, flaks etc.) We never folow them to lower to 3 or 2k. Once the dive we call the bombers that come high and do the job impunished. If the try to climb once they reack 3k or more we dive over them. This puts the enemy in situation of dispair and frustation. Desperate them start to make mistakes that allow us to shot them down. The key in my opinion is the patience to wait the right moment. You have to create a method or RULES OF ENGAGEMENT. and follow them always. Sometimes i simply send RoE to hell, but always when i join my squad mates and decide to fly under RoE i ll be not modest but we are very good. Fly RoE is very good for the EGO while the enemies go down in mass and your team remains untouchable. May you would like to see IN PURSUIT section 18.9 Engagement and Disengagement page 144. http://web.comhem.se/~u85627360/inpursuit.pdf

The secret of the dark side is this. If the Sith go open against the jedi they should be defeated. You have to use tactics and dispersion to reach the objectives. You have to destroy the enemy SA and keep yours to win the fight.

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by bw_wolverine

If I fly at 15k ft and dive only on targets that I have an advantage over, I will kill and not be killed for quite a while.

When did it become unusual to seek an altitude advantage before engaging an opponent? FW190 pilots have been doing this for almost a decade now.

When did diving from above suddenly go from being "flying smart" to "unacceptable"?

This will not give me much action though

Maybe full-real isn't for you, then?

[Ernst]

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

When did it become unusual to seek an altitude advantage before engaging an opponent? FW190 pilots have been doing this for almost a decade now.

When did diving from above suddenly go from being "flying smart" to "unacceptable"?



Maybe full-real isn't for you, then?

Action is to see your bombers come and punish the enemy defenses hard. And the enemy low there flying like pigeons... While the EAGLES fly high.

[bw_wolverine]

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

When did it become unusual to seek an altitude advantage before engaging an opponent? FW190 pilots have been doing this for almost a decade now.

When did diving from above suddenly go from being "flying smart" to "unacceptable"?



Maybe full-real isn't for you, then?

When did I ever use the word "unacceptable"?

Stop being so aggressively antagonistic about this discussion.

If you're not a high flying 109 diving onto your targets, I will be the first to say you're doing it wrong.

I'm happy to fly at 15k+. The ACTION I'm talking about is MISSION CRITICAL action. How many bombers attacking Ramsgate Beaufighters have you seen coming in at 10k+? Maybe I need to get my eyes checked, but I have seen ZERO. The only bombers I ever see going for targets are chopping the water with their props.

If I'm a Spit or a Hurricane that low to the deck, I am a sitting duck for you or any 109 pilot. Even a bad one.

If you want to treat ATAG's server as a dogfight server, go ahead.

I'm thankful for ATAG. It's helped create an online presence for the game if not a cohesive community. But the way things usually play out in the missions these days, it's not much fun most of the time. There are other servers running other missions that I like more, but no one plays there. As everyone has said, AI fighters are BAD to dogfight with. Not much fun there either.

So I occasionally vent like in the above posts and I get back to it. Maybe one time someone will think "Hmm, maybe if we try this it'll make it better for everyone." I'm not out to ruin anyone's fun. I'm out to improve everyone's fun. And, yes, that includes people who like to fly Spitfires and Hurricanes. Sue me.