The Battle of Britain Was The First Defeat For The German Luftwaffe.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by planespotter

I think this is good interesting article on BOB game hub:

Die Luftschlacht um England. Did Germany really lose the Battle of Britain?

http://www.freewebs.com/heinkill/aboutthebattle.htm

you see? this is what I mean. It's an interesting and somehow intriguing point, and we all start from the assumption that nobody here is trying to deprive Britain of its well deserved merit for its accomplishments in WW2.

[bongodriver]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

you see? this is what I mean. It's an interesting and somehow intriguing point, and we all start from the assumption that nobody here is trying to deprive Britain of its well deserved merit for its accomplishments in WW2.

I think that article is interesting but to claim the Royal navy was the key?

if Germany had achieved total air dominance the Navy would have been just as vulnerable, wasn't that something the War highlited, the days of naval power were fading fast because if air power? RN vs LW and German navy wouldnt have stood a chance surely.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

I think that article is interesting but to claim the Royal navy was the key?

if Germany had achieved total air dominance the Navy would have been just as vulnerable, wasn't that something the War highlited, the days of naval power were fading fast because if air power? RN vs LW and German navy wouldnt have stood a chance surely.

I'll read the article in full and tell you what I think of it.

[bongodriver]

Ignore me....I read the wrong thing anyway, I read the web article and not the pdf it linked to....then my internet died before I could edit my response.....I wish the Germans were in charge here sometimes, everything would bloody work then!!!!

[bongodriver]

Just read it....in conclusion it really is saying the 'battle' was insignificant because the Germans werent really interested...so it just didn't matter, and anyhow the Luftwaffe was crap anyway, and when they got bored of it all they really did just pack up the sausages and leave.....seems it really is all about Nationalistic viewpoints and neither side wil rest until the other changes its mind........Stern is right......it's a draw eh

[DD_crash]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

I think that article is interesting but to claim the Royal navy was the key?

if Germany had achieved total air dominance the Navy would have been just as vulnerable, wasn't that something the War highlited, the days of naval power were fading fast because if air power? RN vs LW and German navy wouldnt have stood a chance surely.

A bit O/T but how much of the invasion fleet would the RN have to sink before the invasion would be called off? I am sure that the RN would sacrifice a lot of ships to achieve that. Their role is to protect Britain and that would be their task.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by DD_crash

A bit O/T but how much of the invasion fleet would the RN have to sink before the invasion would be called off? I am sure that the RN would sacrifice a lot of ships to achieve that. Their role is to protect Britain and that would be their task.

Well, the role is to protect Britain while having the minimum amount of losses, cos once your might is no more, you failed.

Exposing all of your Navy in such a narrow area would have been quite a huge risk, besides, considering that the waters would have been an obstacle anyway, the only viable solution would have been to invade the territory with paratroopers and establish bridgeheads.
Considering that the first heavy transport glider (Me321 Gigant) was done at a record speed and available in early 1941, if they carried on with the battle for air dominance they might have as well ditched the plan of an invasion via sea for an airborne one: with a coordinated operation they could have delivered thousands of soldiers and even light tanks and medium tanks (Panzer IV) in a single day.

But again, this is speculation.

[blackmme]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

Well, the role is to protect Britain while having the minimum amount of losses, cos once your might is no more, you failed.

Exposing all of your Navy in such a narrow area would have been quite a huge risk, besides, considering that the waters would have been an obstacle anyway, the only viable solution would have been to invade the territory with paratroopers and establish bridgeheads.
Considering that the first heavy transport glider (Me321 Gigant) was done at a record speed and available in early 1941, if they carried on with the battle for air dominance they might have as well ditched the plan of an invasion via sea for an airborne one: with a coordinated operation they could have delivered thousands of soldiers and even light tanks and medium tanks (Panzer IV) in a single day.

But again, this is speculation.

I have often wondered about Milch's June 40 'Plan / Gamble'.
Massive local air superiority, glider / parachute operation to capture say Hawkinge and then throw the kitchen sink at keeping resupply / reinforcement open.

I think given the state of the British Army at that point it might just have worked.

Regards Mike

[csThor]

Just a short reply WRT naval forces:

1.) The forces near the invasion zone - which were light forces, destroyers and a handful of light cruisers - would be among the priority targets for the Luftwaffe if the necessary air superiority had been established. And that is before the "invasion fleet" raises anchors.
Besides there is more than one way to take warships out of the equation. Damage them, damage or destroy the infrastructure they rely on (piers, cranes, ammo and fuel depots) and they won't be more than a heap of metal. Had the Luftwaffe won air superiority the big harbors of Southern England would have seen very heavy attacks (i.e. Portsmouth or Southampton).

2.) The Royal Navy was stretched thin across the globe due to the necessities of the Empire, the italian navy in the Mediterranean Sea and the need to escort convois across the Atlantic. The Home Fleet was based at Scapa Flow and a number of cruiser and destroyer flotillas along the Eastern Coast. Getting them to the area of operations does take time, a group of heavy ships coming from Scapa will take up to a day to reach the combat zone. Which means there will be no heavy cruisers or battleships opposing the initial landings.

Additionally the Channel was a narrow theater, rather easily controlled with light forces, recon planes, submarines and - the real trump card the Kriegsmarine had - mines. Large ships are best suited for large sea areas. They need space to maneuver ... which was just not there in the Channel.

3.) Battleships and the likes are political weapons. Regardless of their firepower, their protection or their speed there was always a political element in their use. Wilhelm II left the High Seas Fleet in their harbors since he feared losses more. The Japanese left Musashi and Yamato at home until it was too late for them to make a useful contribution. I think the british government would think hard and long about employing its valuable battleships and battlecruisers in these narrow waters, where the risk of losing them is very high while the potential gains are at least questionable. These ships represent a nation's prestige in naval affairs, losing them for nothing would be a serious blow.

I'm not saying a potential invasion would have worked for sure. I am saying we're talking about very muddy waters here and it's simply impossible to tell what exactly could have happened and how that could have effected other decisions.

[DD_crash]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

Well, the role is to protect Britain while having the minimum amount of losses, cos once your might is no more, you failed.

True enough but the Kreigsmarine were very concerned about the strength and ability of the RN(if I remember rightly). I would like to know what the RN planed to do in the event of an invasion fleet setting out and what losses they expected and were prepared to take. I think that the general opinion of the Navys at that time was it was hard to sink a ship using aircraft. Billy Mitchell proved otherwise but the USN wasnt impressed.