BF109 - Can't we just have the gunsight in the middle?

[Lixma]

Originally Posted by carguy_

If what Lixma said is right, then to get a view of the full revi gunsight, a pilot must:
1. SITTING STRAIGHT - lean closer to the revi to get the "ghost" effect.

No. (and if that's what you think i've said i'm beginning to get worried about my communication skills...)

The pilot sits looking forward, no leaning forward, sideways or craning his neck. The Revi is adjusted to shine a full reticle image into his right eye. That's the whole point of it being offset.

Originally Posted by carguy

2. SITTING A BIT TO THE RIGHT - seeing the full glowing crosshair without having to lean closer to it.

Again, there's no need to sit a bit to the right (unless the Revi was set-up for someone else). Please remember the view point we see in CoD is not what a two-eyed human would see.

Please have a scan through the thread again, especially the posts/pictures dealing with what a real 109 pilot would see through his left and right eye compared with the Cyclops depicted in CoD.

[Lixma]

Originally Posted by heloguy

The gunsight itself, not just the glass, has no provisions for adjustment either horizontally, or vertically according to any pictures, or museum pieces I've seen.

The Revi unit was bolted solidly to the airframe. And in some 109 cockpit pictures you'll actually see extra supporting bars in an attempt to keep the unit as steady as possible.

However the reflector's line of sight was adjustable for elevation +/-2.5 degrees horizontally, and +/-3 degrees vertically. How this was done I do not know.

This adjustment was to allow the reticle to be reflected into the eye.....this adjustment didn't actually alter the reticle's position relative to the weapons. It didn't alter the zeroing.

There was also the ability to adjust the aircraft's seat-height. Much quicker and much less fuss. The handle is visible in CoD to the left just by the trim/flaps wheel. Doesn't work, though.

EDIT. I just stumbled across this. There was an additional adjustment available when mounting the sight. Assuming this replica is accurate the Revi unit could be moved closer or farther away from the pilot. This would alter the apparent size of the reticle relative to the edge of the reflector glass.

Which makes sense. The Revi was used on all kinds of different aircraft so the mounting brackets would have to offer some kind of telescopic adjustment for finer tuning.

http://cgi.ebay.com/WW2-German-Gunsi...-/230530262205

[Lixma]

This is worth posting.

It's a schematic of the FW-190. Look carefully.....



Make a note of....

a) the center-line.

b) the sight-line.

c) the position of the reticle

d) the horizontal separation between centre-line and sight-line - 40mm.

Now grab a tape measure, find a mirror and measure the distance from the centre of your nose to the middle of your right pupil.....

Mine is 37mm.

The offset Revi gunsight is installed to sit directly in the right eye's line of sight.

No leaning required.

Here's a link to the full image....I'd post it here but it's a bit big....3mb.

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.p...n77up7&thumb=4

Lixma, as you have the best skills to explain all this and also all the information, including the things you just posted about the revi adjustments and the FW190 thing: could you assemble all this into one fluid text/document and provide this to luthier?

Perhaps open a new thread in the FM section with an appropriate title (just an illustration for what I mean - you surely will find a better one than me: "Pilot with two eyes and revi sights: How it should be") and put all the explanations and pictures in it. And send the link to luthier.

[Lixma]

I probably will at some point....although the thought of going through all this again is a little daunting.

In the meantime i'll just repost the FW-190 thing for the new page, so it will get seen. This picture does a phenomenal job of illustrating the issue at hand. I only wish I had found it 25 pages ago.....sigh.

Originally Posted by Lixma

This is worth posting.

It's a schematic of the FW-190. Look carefully.....



Make a note of....

a) the center-line.

b) the sight-line.

c) the position of the reticle

d) the horizontal separation between centre-line and sight-line - 40mm.

Now grab a tape measure, find a mirror and measure the distance from the centre of your nose to the middle of your right pupil.....

Mine is 37mm.

The offset Revi gunsight is installed to sit directly in the right eye's line of sight.

No leaning required.

Here's a link to the full image....I'd post it here but it's a bit big....3mb.

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.p...n77up7&thumb=4

[heloguy]

I guess if it ever came to fruition, it would be a big help to those that don't use Track IR, as their head would be held (aside from the headshake affect) directly in the middle. If you lean at all to the left, though, it should not be very far before the image would disappear. The effect could also be used on the Spitfire and Hurricane, if someone is leaning to the left or right of their sights.

The mount you showed does seem to have a telescoping piece, but I wonder exactly what it would be for. It's certainly not made for making fine adjustments and then being fixed in place. It looks like it only adjusts from one extreme to another.

[Lixma]

Can't be arsed going through it all again so i'll just repeat myself the easy way....

Originally Posted by Lixma

This is worth posting.

It's a schematic of the FW-190. Look carefully.....



Make a note of....

a) the center-line.

b) the sight-line.

c) the position of the reticle

d) the horizontal separation between centre-line and sight-line - 40mm.

Now grab a tape measure, find a mirror and measure the distance from the centre of your nose to the middle of your right pupil.....

Mine is 37mm.

The offset Revi gunsight is installed to sit directly in the right eye's line of sight.

No leaning required.

Here's a link to the full image....I'd post it here but it's a bit big....3mb.

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.p...n77up7&thumb=4

[flyingblind]

Don't forget as well that to see things more as a 109 pilot would see them you need to be in 30deg FOV so that the sight appears at the correct size and not the postage stamp size seen in 70deg or 90deg FOV. But I doubt anyone flys using 30deg FOV even those claiming they only want complete realism. When the chips are down everyone will compromise.

[carguy_]

Originally Posted by Lixma

Please have a scan through the thread again, especially the posts/pictures dealing with what a real 109 pilot would see through his left and right eye compared with the Cyclops depicted in CoD.

You missed this :

After reading the FULL thread and generally agreeing with Lixma, I think that the classic IL2 SHIFT+F1 view was more correct, because one doesn`t have to lean close to the revi to see the crosshair, IF HE IS SITTING SLIGHLY TO THE RIGHT.

Hence, the old il2 gunsight view should be restored.

So it is easily visible I don`t agree with you 100%. Only thing is that I figured that currently the crosshair view in the game sets the pilot leaned in, and slighly to the right when only one of those should be performed to see the crosshair. That is why I prefer the classic il2 - gunsight view - over the new view. In that view, the pilot is set slightly to the right without the need to lean in closer to the revi (which means narrowing the field of view).

[klem]

Originally Posted by carguy_

...............That is why I prefer the classic il2 - gunsight view - over the new view. In that view, the pilot is set slightly to the right without the need to lean in closer to the revi (which means narrowing the field of view).

I think you're still missing the point. In the "IL-2" view, and in CoD, the pilot is "moved" to "sit to the right" of the centre line but it is only a crude attempt to make it feel like you're using your right eye.

Look at the diagram Lixma posted. The Revi sight is immediately in front of the pilots right eye without him having to move. MG just need to show the reticle in the offset gunsight of the 'normal' view. An offset of 40mm from centre would have made virtually no real difference to the aiming point in RL although MG may need to look at the aiming code for CoD.

I'd go further and say I don't see a need for a shifted 'gunsight' view at all. With the reticle visible in 'normal' view there is no need for an offset view and IMHO no need for a shifted 'gunsight' view in any aircraft, just an FOV change if you want to narrow/zoom the view.

The "shifted pilot view" is not realistic at all. It never existed. We've simply come to think it must be right because its always been there in IL-2.