Thought for future expansions: Release Chronologically

[Voyager]

Originally Posted by WTE_Galway

That is entirely untrue.

The so called "massively inferior and out of date" state of the Polish armed forces was initially just German propaganda and it then became convenient for the Allies to allow that false impression to continue as it helped allied morale to think that Poland had collapsed because of an "out of date poorly led army". Another myth was the cavalry charges against tanks. It never happened. What the Polish did have was very effective mobile anti tank units with anti tank guns that moved to new positions through rough terrain on horseback.

The myth has been perpetuated by Hollywood who like us to think that everyone in WWII was hopeless and useless except the US.

German Quartermaster General’s reports admitted the loss of 258 planes throughout the Polish Campaign. You can probably add to that another 100 or more damaged so severely as to need virtual rebuilding or not acknowledged directly as lost to enemy action.

A good estimate is around 350 Luftwaffe aircraft were lost all together over 6 weeks or so in Poland. Of those 350 around 120-150 were shot down in air to air combat. The rest were destroyed on the ground or shot down by AAA.

That compares VERY favorably with the 1100 the RAF managed down over the entire battle of Britain.

Note that the Polish airforce was still flying and active from secret airbases right up to the time the Russians invaded and the country surrendered. Up until the Russians invaded the Poles fought on hoping the British and French would grow a brain and realise teh entire German forces were occupied in the East and mount an invasion of Germany . If they had WWII might have been avoided.

Is the QM report the number of planes lost to enemy action, or simply the numbers of planes lost? You have to expect a certain amount of losses to simple accidents, regardless of enemy action. I find it hard to see how a QM could get away with under-reporting losses by nearly 50%

What planes were the Polish Airforce getting the kills in? My understanding was the most modern fighter they had at the time was the PZL P.11, and that the retractable gear designs never reached production. I'll grant you, if you get into a turnfight with a PZL you can get yourself shot down pretty quickly, and the P.11 is around the same speed as the unloaded Stuka, but it's not something I would consider a reasonable match against a 109E.

[WTE_Galway]

Originally Posted by Voyager

Is the QM report the number of planes lost to enemy action, or simply the numbers of planes lost? You have to expect a certain amount of losses to simple accidents, regardless of enemy action. I find it hard to see how a QM could get away with under-reporting losses by nearly 50%

What planes were the Polish Airforce getting the kills in? My understanding was the most modern fighter they had at the time was the PZL P.11, and that the retractable gear designs never reached production. I'll grant you, if you get into a turnfight with a PZL you can get yourself shot down pretty quickly, and the P.11 is around the same speed as the unloaded Stuka, but it's not something I would consider a reasonable match against a 109E.

Despite the fact that online IL2 servers consist mainly of fighter versus fighter combat its unlikely much of the air to air combat consisted of PZL P11 turn fighting Emils


Here you go, some details:

http://worldwartwozone.com/forums/in...ir-force-1939/

The numbers of kills by Polish units are cited after J. Pawlak’s Polskie eskadry w wojnie obronnej 1939, which is an invaluable reference work for the subject. However, these numbers likely include a certain number of what should be classified as probable kills. Numbers given by Pawlak add up to 147 kills, while the actual number of confirmed kills in the Polish campaign, according to the war-time research by special Polish Air Force commission, was 126. There is also a likelihood of some over-claiming, but considering all circumstances, the actual number of German aircraft shot down by fighter pilots in the campaign was probably around 105-110. Given the enormous technical and numerical advantage of the Luftwaffe, these numbers show the excellent skills and determination of Polish fighter pilots, both of which they went on to prove in the Battle of Britain, and other campaigns on the Western front.


Brygada Poscigowa – Pursuit Brigade

III/1 Dywizjon Mysliwski – III/1 Fighter Wing

Commanding Officer: Capt. Zdzislaw Krasnodebski

Tactical Officer: Lt.Arsen Cebrzynski

Initial Strength: 17 PZL P.11c + 4 PZL P.11a

Enemy Aircraft Shot Down: 19.5

Enemy Aircraft Damaged: 6

Aircraft Lost: 19

Aircrew Lost: 1 killed, 1 missing, 5 wounded


111 Eskadra Mysliwska – 111 Fighter Squadron

Commanding Officer: Capt. Gustaw Sidorowicz

Initial Strength: 9 PZL P.11c

Enemy Aircraft Shot Down: 7.5

Enemy Aircraft Damaged: 3

Aircraft Lost: 9

Aircrew Lost: 1 missing, 4 wounded


112 Eskadra Mysliwska – 112 Fighter Squadron

Commanding Officer: Capt. Tadeusz Opulski

Initial Strength: 6 PZL P.11c + 4 PZL P.11a

Enemy Aircraft Shot Down: 9.5

Enemy Aircraft Damaged: 3

Aircraft Lost: 10

Aircrew Lost: 1 killed, 1 wounded


IV/1 Dywizjon Mysliwski – IV/1 Fighter Wing

Commanding Officer: Capt. Adam Kowalczyk

Tactical Officer: Lt. Aleksander Gabszewicz

Initial Strength: 13 PZL P.11c + 9 PZL P.11a

Enemy Aircraft Shot Down: 26.5

Enemy Aircraft Damaged: 9

Aircraft Lost: 15

Aircrew Lost: 1 killed, 4 missing, 4 wounded

113 Eskadra Mysliwska – 113 Fighter Squadron

Commanding Officer: Lt. Wienczyslaw Baranski

Initial Strength: 5 PZL P.11c + 5 PZL P.11a

Enemy Aircraft Shot Down: 15.5

Enemy Aircraft Damaged:6

Aircraft Lost: 7

Aircrew Lost: 1 killed, 1 missing, 1 wounded

114 Eskadra Mysliwska – 114 Fighter Squadron

Commanding Officer: Capt. Juliusz Frey

Initial Strength: 6 PZL P.11c + 4 PZL P.11a

Enemy Aircraft Shot Down: 8

Enemy Aircraft Damaged: 3

Aircraft Lost: 8

Aircrew Lost: 3 missing, 3 wounded

Detached from III/2 Dywizjon Mysliwski – III/2 Fighter Wing

123 Eskadra Mysliwska – 123 Fighter Squadron

Commanding Officer: Capt. Mieczyslaw Olszewski

Initial Strength: 10 PZL P.7a

Enemy Aircraft Shot Down: 3

Enemy Aircraft Damaged: 2

Aircraft Lost: 6

Aircrew Lost: 1 killed, 2 wounded


Krakow Army Air Arm

II/2 Dywizjon Mysliwski – III/2 Fighter Wing

Commanding Officer: Capt. Mieczyslaw Medwecki

Tactical Officer: Capt. Walerian Jasionowski

Initial Strength: 20 PZL P.11c

Enemy Aircraft Shot Down: 14

Enemy Aircraft Damaged: 7

Aircraft Lost: 10 (4(!) shot down by Polish AA fire)

Aircrew Lost: 3 killed

121 Eskadra Mysliwska – 121 Fighter Squadron

Commanding Officer: Capt. Tadeusz Sedzielowski

Initial Strength: 10 PZL P.11c

Enemy Aircraft Shot Down: 8.5

Enemy Aircraft Damaged: 4

Aircraft Lost: 6 (3 shot down by Polish AA fire)

Aircrew Lost: 2 killed

122 Eskadra Mysliwska – 122 Fighter Squadron

Commanding Officer: Capt. Mieczyslaw Wiorkiewicz

Initial Strength: 10 PZL P.11c

Enemy Aircraft Shot Down: 5.5

Enemy Aircraft Damaged: 3

Aircraft Lost: 4

Aircrew Lost: none

Poznan Army Air Arm

III/3 Dywizjon Mysliwski – III/3 Fighter Wing

Commanding Officer: Maj. Mieczyslaw Mumler

Tactical Officer: Capt. Kazimierz Wisniewski

Initial Strength: 22 PZL P.11c

Enemy Aircraft Shot Down: 36

Enemy Aircraft Damaged: 2

Aircraft Lost: 14

Aircrew Lost: 2 killed, 6 missing, 5 wounded


131 Eskadra Mysliwska – 131 Fighter Squadron

Commanding Officer: Capt. Jerzy Zaremba

Initial Strength: 10 PZL P.11c

Enemy Aircraft Shot Down: 11.5

Enemy Aircraft Damaged: 1

Aircraft Lost: 3

Aircrew Lost: 3 missing, 3 wounded

132 Eskadra Mysliwska – 132 Fighter Squadron

Commanding Officer: Capt. Franciszek Jastrzebski

Initial Strength: 10 PZL P.11c

Enemy Aircraft Shot Down: 20.5

Enemy Aircraft Damaged: 1

Aircraft Lost: 11

Aircrew Lost: 2 killed, 3 missing, 2 wounded

Pomorze Army Air Arm

III/4 Dywizjon Mysliwski – III/4 Fighter Wing

Commanding Officer: Capt. Florian Laskowski

Tactical Officer: Lt. Franciszek Skiba

Initial Strength: 18 PZL P.11c + 4 PZL P.11a

Enemy Aircraft Shot Down: 21

Enemy Aircraft Damaged: 1

Aircraft Lost: 14

Aircrew Lost: 4 killed, 1 missing, 1 wounded

141 Eskadra Mysliwska – 141 Fighter Squadron

Commanding Officer: Capt. Tadeusz Rolski

Initial Strength: 10 PZL P.11c

Enemy Aircraft Shot Down: 6

Enemy Aircraft Damaged: 1

Aircraft Lost: 7

Aircrew Lost: 2 killed, 1 missing, 1 wounded

142 Eskadra Mysliwska – 142 Fighter Squadron

Commanding Officer: Capt. Miroslaw Lesniewski

Initial Strength:6 PZL P.11c + 4 PZL P.11a

Enemy Aircraft Shot Down: 15

Enemy Aircraft Damaged: none

Aircraft Lost: 7

Aircrew Lost: 1 killed

Narew Operational Group Air Arm


Detached from III/5 Dywizjon Mysliwski – III/5 Fighter Wing

151 Eskadra Mysliwska – 151 Fighter Squadron

Commanding Officer: Lt. Jozef Brzezinski

Initial Strength: 10 PZL P.7a

Enemy Aircraft Shot Down: none

Enemy Aircraft Damaged: 1

Aircraft Lost: 6

Aircrew Lost: 1 missing, 1 wounded

Modlin Army Air Arm

III/5 Dywizjon Mysliwski – III/5 Fighter Wing

Commanding Officer: Maj. Edward Wieckowski

Tactical Officer: Capt. Kazimierz Wolinski

Initial Strength: 9 PZL P.11c + 1 PZL P.11a

Enemy Aircraft Shot Down: 8 (+ 2 balloons)

Enemy Aircraft Damaged: 1

Aircraft Lost: 8

Aircrew Lost: 1 killed

152 Eskadra Mysliwska – 152 Fighter Squadron

Commanding Officer: Capt. Wlodzimierz Lazoryk

Initial Strength: 9 PZL P.11c + 1 PZL P.11a

Enemy Aircraft Shot Down: 8 (+ 2 balloons)

Enemy Aircraft Damaged: 1

Aircraft Lost: 8

Aircrew Lost: 1 killed

Lodz Army Air Arm

III/6 Dywizjon Mysliwski – III/6 Fighter Wing

Commanding Officer: Capt. Stanislaw Morawski

Tactical Officer: Lt. Tadeusz Jeziorowski

Initial Strength: 10 PZL P.11c + 2 PZL P.11a + 10 PZL P.7a

Enemy Aircraft Shot Down: 14

Enemy Aircraft Damaged: 3

Aircraft Lost: 18

Aircrew Lost: 6 killed, 3 wounded

161 Eskadra Mysliwska – 161 Fighter Squadron

Commanding Officer: Capt. Wladyslaw Szczesniewski

Initial Strength: 8 PZL P.11c + 2 PZL P.11a

Enemy Aircraft Shot Down: 6

Enemy Aircraft Damaged: 3

Aircraft Lost: 9

Aircrew Lost: 2 killed, 2 wounded

162 Eskadra Mysliwska – 162 Fighter Squadron

Commanding Officer: Lt. Bernard Groszewski

Initial Strength: 10 PZL P.7a

Enemy Aircraft Shot Down: 8

Enemy Aircraft Damaged: none

Aircraft Lost: 9

Aircrew Lost: 3 killed, 1 wounded