Landing the BF-109

[ATAG_Dutch]

Originally Posted by Splitter

you are using Track IR, yes?
Splitter

Yeah, my wife asked me what I wanted for my birthday last year.
She still pisses herself laughing when she sees me wearing a stupid cap in front of the PC!
Once you get used to it it's indispensable though.

BTW see my previous post. I added another clip that'll be more useful. The first one was too long and low.

Happy Trails.

[Romanator21]

Not a Bf-109, but it's a quite similar procedure.

Everyone else has already mentioned more or less what would have said, so I'll leave it to the video to illustrate a 3-pointer.

You'll noticed that I flared too quickly which led to my plane "ballooning" and then floating on the runway. When this happens you're at risk of stalling and smashing onto the runway, so just add a touch of power to reduce sink rate, and let it come down gently.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTcQqjH6GTo

[Splitter]

Originally Posted by Romanator21

Not a Bf-109, but it's a quite similar procedure.

Everyone else has already mentioned more or less what would have said, so I'll leave it to the video to illustrate a 3-pointer.

You'll noticed that I flared too quickly which led to my plane "ballooning" and then floating on the runway. When this happens you're at risk of stalling and smashing onto the runway, so just add a touch of power to reduce sink rate, and let it come down gently.

For some reason, I don't have any problem with the P-51. Dunno why. It seems to have less "sink" when you flare.

Quick question: Why do you unlock your tail wheel prior to landing? I have always kept it locked in every sim to minimize the chance of a sideways skid on the ground. I unlock it when I need to turn off onto the taxi way.

For some reason, the "float" over the runway seems better than X-Plane. In X-Plane you can float forever in seems.

I also notice none of you seem to raise flaps on touch down. I was taught to raise flaps to reduce lift and put more weight on the wheels for breaking and steering. Does leaving them down give an advantage in reducing speed by drag?

The video with real 109's landing made me feel a little better about my landings . Of course, those guys are trying to land as slow as possible to save wear and tear on the tires and breaks....I have no excuse .

Yeah, Dutch, second video is better. I am assuming you touch down at about 180kph, maybe a touch higher.

Hunden is just a maniac with no flaps and that much speed lol.

Splitter

[Skoshi Tiger]

I find that most people are coming in a too shallow an angle (myself included) and flying onto the runway. We get away with it because the sim is too forgiving and even if we only get into trouble 1% of the time it's ok it only a sim.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotat...ure=iv#t=4m56s

I guess there is no real substitute for proper technique.

cheers!

[engarde]

Originally Posted by Splitter

I don't crash without a good reason, like battle damage. Even without a vertical stabilizer or ailerons I can get a plane on the ground in the middle of the runway.

.......

Since you can't raise the virtual seat, how do you deal with the terrible forward visibility?

Are you using a 3 degree glide slope or something steeper?

....

Thanks in advance.

Splitter

I took an aerobatics flight in a tiger moth some time ago.

on landing, a good degree of side slip on approach revealed the runway.

look beside the nose, not over it.

try that for size.

and as an aside, open cockpits are what flying is all about.

[KG26_Alpha]

Originally Posted by Splitter

I don't crash without a good reason, like battle damage. Even without a vertical stabilizer or ailerons I can get a plane on the ground in the middle of the runway.

Until tonight.

I know the the BF-109 was hard to land and claimed the lives of a lot of pilots. But I probably have more virtual landings under my belt than any WWII pilot had in real life lol.

Tonight flopped a 109 down hard enough to crumple the landing gear. Coming in steeply enough to see over the cowling gets really tricky at the end when you have to flatten out enough to touch down easily. VERY seldom do I set down without a bounce or two.

Even coming in low and slow, the runway completely disappears under the cowling much too early. My "good" landings are still white knuckle affairs. It seems to be a matter of flying blind and "holding what you got" until the wheels touch.

So I am looking for tips on landing this bird (the search feature on these forums stinks, btw).

What are your approach and touch down speeds?

Since it stalls at about 85mph (around 135kph), do you keep the touch down speed a little higher to prevent pancaking?

Since you can't raise the virtual seat, how do you deal with the terrible forward visibility?

Are you using a 3 degree glide slope or something steeper?

I am seriously falling in love with this plane. Offline against even Ace level pilots you are untouchable. I just can't land the thing smoothly. Oh, I can set it down like a feather with no cockpit but that's cheating.

Lastly, what are your last second "go around" procedures? I learned at altitude that being slow and jamming the throttle forward imparts a nasty roll lol.

Thanks in advance.

Splitter

I usually land it the same as a Spitfire in a slow long curve.

Here's some Bf109 landing facts

Bf 109 D:
"The controls, sensitive ailerons, and tail group were fully effective to the time the wheels touched the ground. So much for that."
- US Marine Corps major Al Williams. Source: Bf 109D test flight, 1938.

Me 109 E:
"Stalling speeds on the glide are 75 mph flaps up, and 61 mph flaps down. Lowering the flaps makes the ailerons feel heavier and slightly less effective, and causes a marked nose-down pitching moment, readily corrected owing to the juxtaposition of trim and flap operating wheels. If the engine is opened up to simulate a baulked landing with flaps and undercarriage down, the airplane becomes tail-heavy but can easily be held with one hand while trim is adjusted. Normal approach speed is 90 mph. At speeds above 100 mph, the pilot has the impression of diving, and below 80 mph one of sinking. At 90 mph the glide path is reasonably steep and the view fairly good. Longitudinally the airplane is markedly stable, and the elevator heavier and more responsive than is usual in single-seater fighters. These features add considerably to the ease of approach. Aileron effectiveness is adequate; the rudder is sluggish for small movements.
(Landing) This is more difficult than on the Hurricane I or Spitfire I. Owing to the high ground attitude, the airplane must be rotated through a large angle before touchdown, and this requires a fair amount of skill. If a wheel landing is done the left wing tends to drop just before touchdown, and if the ailerons are used to lift it, they snatch, causing over-correction. The brakes can be applied immediately after touchdown without fear of lifting the tail. The ground run is short, with no tendency to swing. View during hold-off and ground run is very poor, and landing at night would not be easy."
- RAF Royal Aircraft Establishment (RAE) Farnborough handling trials,Bf.109E Wn: 1304. M.B. Morgan and R. Smelt of the RAE, 1944.

Me 109 E-4:
"I established a speed of 200 kmh to enter the downwind leg, 150 at the end of the downwind, a curving final approach aiming to reduce speed to 130 kmh halfway around, 120 kmh with 30 degreed to go to the centreline and a threshold speed of 110 kmh with a dribble of power to stabilise the rate of speed decay.
Compare this with Black 6 (109 G) where I aimed to be at 200 kmh at the end of the downwind leg and not less than 165 kmh at the threshold."
- Charlie Brown, RAF Flying Instructor, test flight of restored Me 109 E-4 WN 3579. Source: Warbirds Journal issue 50.

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/...myths/#landing

[Splitter]

Originally Posted by KG26_Alpha

I usually land it the same as a Spitfire in a slow long curve.

Here's some Bf109 landing facts

Bf 109 D:
"The controls, sensitive ailerons, and tail group were fully effective to the time the wheels touched the ground. So much for that."
- US Marine Corps major Al Williams. Source: Bf 109D test flight, 1938.

Me 109 E:
"Stalling speeds on the glide are 75 mph flaps up, and 61 mph flaps down. Lowering the flaps makes the ailerons feel heavier and slightly less effective, and causes a marked nose-down pitching moment, readily corrected owing to the juxtaposition of trim and flap operating wheels. If the engine is opened up to simulate a baulked landing with flaps and undercarriage down, the airplane becomes tail-heavy but can easily be held with one hand while trim is adjusted. Normal approach speed is 90 mph. At speeds above 100 mph, the pilot has the impression of diving, and below 80 mph one of sinking. At 90 mph the glide path is reasonably steep and the view fairly good. Longitudinally the airplane is markedly stable, and the elevator heavier and more responsive than is usual in single-seater fighters. These features add considerably to the ease of approach. Aileron effectiveness is adequate; the rudder is sluggish for small movements.
(Landing) This is more difficult than on the Hurricane I or Spitfire I. Owing to the high ground attitude, the airplane must be rotated through a large angle before touchdown, and this requires a fair amount of skill. If a wheel landing is done the left wing tends to drop just before touchdown, and if the ailerons are used to lift it, they snatch, causing over-correction. The brakes can be applied immediately after touchdown without fear of lifting the tail. The ground run is short, with no tendency to swing. View during hold-off and ground run is very poor, and landing at night would not be easy."
- RAF Royal Aircraft Establishment (RAE) Farnborough handling trials,Bf.109E Wn: 1304. M.B. Morgan and R. Smelt of the RAE, 1944.

Me 109 E-4:
"I established a speed of 200 kmh to enter the downwind leg, 150 at the end of the downwind, a curving final approach aiming to reduce speed to 130 kmh halfway around, 120 kmh with 30 degreed to go to the centreline and a threshold speed of 110 kmh with a dribble of power to stabilise the rate of speed decay.
Compare this with Black 6 (109 G) where I aimed to be at 200 kmh at the end of the downwind leg and not less than 165 kmh at the threshold."
- Charlie Brown, RAF Flying Instructor, test flight of restored Me 109 E-4 WN 3579. Source: Warbirds Journal issue 50.

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/...myths/#landing

That's just good stuff, Alpha. I'll have to try some of those things to see if they hold up with the IL-2 flight models. My pure guess is that at such low speeds I am going to see a wing dip and have trouble, but we shall see.

THANK YOU!

Splitter

[jameson]

I'll just lob a spanner in the works here to suggest that AI 109's E to k have the same landing behaviour and the same landing speed as that of an E4....

[Splitter]

Originally Posted by jameson

I'll just lob a spanner in the works here to suggest that AI 109's E to k have the same landing behaviour and the same landing speed as that of an E4....

Well they are perfect pilots and I am far from it lol.

I did some experiments today and I can land at less than 140kph (or lower) without battle damage. It is a very precise thing though. Too slow and the sink rate goes though the roof while controls get sluggish and the left wing wants to dip.

My problem seems to be grass strips. I can land on a dime on a paved strip, no problem. A curved approach, like landing on a carrier in a Corsair, is the way to go. But you can't plop a 109 down quite as hard as a Corsair or at a similar landing speed (comparing aircraft to aircraft, not speed to speed). That 30 knots carrier speed helps on a Corsair. With a 109, that last bit of approach needs to be very shallow to prevent a bounce and you need some power on it seems.

I am probably being anal about bouncing the 109 a bit. Most of the videos I see of real 109's landing have a bit of bounce. But from my flight sim days, a bounce is bad.

Splitter

[Blackdog_kt]

It might be that you've reached a point where you're "stressing" yourself for no real gain or, to put it in a better way, trying to do better than real life BF-109 pilots. I too have seen a lot of films of restored 109s on youtube that bounce quite a bit on landing. As long as it's a predictable thing that you can control without damage to the aircraft, i'd say it's good enough. In other words, putting in practice the old axiom that every landing you can walk away from is a good landing

On the other hand, if you have set a personal challenge to grease the wheels in a perfect 3 pointer every time, then by all means go along with it and share your findings. As long as the aircraft doesn't break into pieces or endangers other aircraft using the airfield, the rest is a matter of personal preference and setting up fun challenges for yourself to achieve