True Altitude?

[Soldier_Fortune]

These are questions mainly adressed to the TD.

Since the patch 4.11, we are noticed that each map has a Ground Level temperature. The published Temp_Guide_4111 provides hints for a right management of the engines avoiding overheatings.

But also I've seen in-game that the GL temperature, indicated for each map, decreases in steps of -6.5 ºC each +1000 m ASL (or -2 ºC each +1000 ft ASL) as it is IRL, and it affects the TAS: in a winter map, at a given altitude, the TAS is slower than the TAS in a summer map, for the same altitude and the same plane.

IRL the free air temperature also determines the True Altitude similarly to the TAS: in a colder map a plane flies a bit lower than the Indicated Altitude read in the altiemeters, and in a hotter map the same plane would fly a bit higher than the Indicated Altitude.

Since both variables TAS and Altitude are used to adjust the bombsight, I would like to ask you:

1) Is the True Altitude a variable included in the FM?

2) Should we use this True Altitude as a setting for the bombsight?

3) Or should we use the Indicated Altitude as ever?

Thank you.

[KG26_Alpha]

If the air density has been changed in v4.11 then perhaps the bombs are affected giving the long drop syndrome were seeing since the patch.


A recalculated table would be needed for the game.


But the standard real world calculation should apply.






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[Soldier_Fortune]

Originally Posted by KG26_Alpha

If the air density has been changed in v4.11 then perhaps the bombs are affected giving the long drop syndrome were seeing since the patch.


A recalculated table would be needed for the game.


But the standard real world calculation should apply.

In one hand, the IAS/TAS charts and tables made by some players several years ago (before the patch 4.11 was released), now are totally useless because the simplified model of the air included in the game considered a constant free air temperature = 0ºC at any altitude for all maps.

In the other hand, we would need an IAS/TAS chart for each map, since the most of them have different Ground Level temperatures (GLT), being this GLT the starting point for any calculation about TAS... but that would be a too hard work for anyone. Perhaps the interested players should have their own E6-B flight computer, but perhaps not all the interested players would afford 10 or 12 U$D for the cheapest models.

With 'no wind' TAS depends of the altitude and the free air temperature, and this data is used as a setting for the bombsight. As far as I tested, the free fall bombs are not affected by the air density in a different way than the aircrafts and, if you use the right TAS, your bombs should hit the selected targets.

But if in your mission the designer has included any wind, this adds a new problem since the TAS and the Ground Speed (GS) has not the same value, being this GS the parameter needed for to set the bombsight up, and not the TAS (before the patch 4.10 the TAS was the velocity for the bombsight because when wind_speed = 0, then GS = TAS).

This problem may be solved again with an E6-B computer in the simplest fashion, being the other ways (involving several manual calculations each time) too complex and too boring for the most of the players.

In any case, this affects almost all what we've learned and known about level bombing up to the patch 4.09.

But the standard real world calculation should apply.

I'm agreed with you.
Now I know the effect of the wind, the altitude and the free air temperature on the TAS and the GS, how to calculate them in an easy, funny and realistic/historical fashion, and how to use them into the sim.

But also I need to know if the True Altitude (regarding of the free air temperature) has been modeled and if it should be used instead of the Indicated Altitude for to calibrate the bombsights.

[KG26_Alpha]

The bombsite tables I have posted are from the original 1C team and came with the game they used to work perfectly well.

Adaptive bombing has been forefront in the game for years, there never really has been a "perfect" solution for non TAS calculation bombsites,
they are more a rough guide to where your aiming, over the years the bombs are no longer as effective as they used to be,
if you were a little long or short, the blast radius seems to have been changed so now you have to almost hit the object directly in incur effective damage.

It makes the human bombers job miserable as there nothing worse than dropping 1000kg of bombs on a target missed by 50 meters only to see nothing destroyed.


From the BBC Blitz Street, it gives an idea of effective blast radius against housing,
transpose that to flat open airfields and the destruction should be greater than what we have now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0v2Uq8z7aI

Also

It would be interesting to know exactly whats been done regarding air density.

[Soldier_Fortune]

Originally Posted by KG26_Alpha

The bombsite tables I have posted are from the original 1C team and came with the game they used to work perfectly well.

Those bombsite charts, which you have posted in other treath, worked fine before the patch 4.11 was released, because the atmosphere model considered an outside temperature of 0 ºC always, as well as if the map was the Gulf of Finland in winter, as if the map was MTO or Burma. So now, after that patch, those charts became obsolete and useless, and they only mislead the readers.

Let me to explain this with an example:

For an altitude ALT = 5000 m =16,400 ft and for an IAS = 250 km/h = 135 KTS, I'll calculate the TAS. The considered outside temperature is a constant value of 0 ºC.
The result, computed with an E6-B, is: TAS = 180 KTS = 332 km/h.
This computed TAS matches the TAS obtained from the charts.

MAP GULF OF FINLAND (WINTER).
Outside temperature at GL = -20 ºC. According to the IAS (International Atmosphere Standard) the air temperature decreases at -2 ºC/1000 ft ASL. So, at 16,400 ft the outside temperature for this map should be -52.8 ºC.
For the same conditions of IAS and altitude, now TAS = 160 KTS = 297 km/h

MAP MTO
Outside temperature at GL = 28 ºC. So, at 16,400 ft the outside temperature for this map should be -4.8 ºC.
For the same conditions of IAS and altitude, now TAS = 178 KTS = 330 km/h

It's very easy to check if these computed values are true or not, just flying with a Me-262 at those altitudes in both maps, and reading the speed gauge.
And if a computed TAS is true for the Me-262, also it must be true for any aircraft.

Adaptive bombing has been forefront in the game for years, there never really has been a "perfect" solution for non TAS calculation bombsites,
they are more a rough guide to where your aiming, over the years the bombs are no longer as effective as they used to be,
if you were a little long or short, the blast radius seems to have been changed so now you have to almost hit the object directly in incur effective damage.

It makes the human bombers job miserable as there nothing worse than dropping 1000kg of bombs on a target missed by 50 meters only to see nothing destroyed

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First of all, if a player is satisfied using adaptative bombing (or any other tactics), it's all right.
But for myself, I prefer to know where my good luck ends and where my skill begins.
The adaptative bombing is too random for my taste, so I'm working for to improve my skill from a 'scientific' base: this base would give me a good reference to know how is progressing my own skill.

I'm shure it is possible to perform precision bombing from an altitude above 5000 m, if the inputs for the bombsite are correct. A step forward: I think that would be posibble to perform precision bombing over a target completely hidden by clouds or darkness, only with the aid of NDBs. ... but if the pilot flies taking in account distances, times, altitudes, wind speed, outside temperatures, bearings to the NDBs, true courses, true headings, ground speeds...

From the BBC Blitz Street, it gives an idea of effective blast radius against housing,
transpose that to flat open airfields and the destruction should be greater than what we have now

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It's a very interesting video: thank you for share it with me.
About the in-game blast radius, I agreed with you: it should be greater. Perhaps the developers decided to reduce the bombs' DM for balance purposes, I don't know. But, as a reference, a Mk-84 bomb (2000 pounds = 900 kg) has a blast raduis of 400 yds (365 m)... and I never saw such destruction with a 1000 kg bomb in this sim.

[KG26_Alpha]

I'm pretty sure ambient temperature, at ground level at least, has been modeled for a long time.

The fact they produced a v4.11 "read me" showing map temps doesn't mean they were not present long before v4.11

Desert maps ambient temps were @ 80-90' back on v4.07 iirc
You only had to look at the temp gauge on your aircraft with the engine off on the runway to see ambient temperature was in the map.
Which was always a bit strange as the engine was cold but the temp gauge registered outside temp.
Air density at altitude is the interesting factor though it seems something had changed.

A word form TD would be enlightening.







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