Don't make performances secret this time

[PE_Tihi]

Originally Posted by Rama

Wingspan isn't FM data, it's structural data.
About max speed, for each plane type you can find different sources giving you different numbers, and even different reference altitude for max speed.
... and that's including different real flight test data.




Ahah.... and do you think your link gives the only valuable and universal source??? you must be kidding...
Have you tried, just for ONE type of plane to gather all different performance sources and to compare them... you should try, it will help you to understand the problem...

Even for the geometry , as you call it structural data of a plane - you ll find the wingspan of the plane different from the facory blueprint for a centimeter of two- that's production tolerances. You won't find two planes of the same type with exactly the same top speed.
Flight test data of captured planes - oft damaged and repaired in a makeshift manner- can give values lower than typical.
But we re not talking here about centimeters, or a mere 1 m/s of the climb rate ( although that is quite a lot). I am giving you an example where a game plane has been given 50% , 7 m/s more than RL. Now if you find me any source giving the I16 the climb rate even approaching 21.25 m/s I ll buy you a dinner.

I red quite a bit on the matter, you know. Comparing the data from different sources is not that difficult as you may think.
On the link I sent you , for example, there is a test report from the US Navy on the A6M2, giving it an initial climb of 13.5 m/s. Knowing from reading somewhere else that the Navy tested Zero was not in the best condition, I considered this result as being on the low side.
USAAF test gave it an initial climb of approx. 14,5 m/s- lets round it to 15 m/s for a factory new plane. W. Green and R. Francillon books confirm this number.
On the other hand , there is a number of sources that ascribe this plane a fantastic climb rate of 22 m/s, at the same time rating A6M5, a much more powerful model with 16 m/s. Newer A6M5 ,having much lower power loading had to climb faster, so these data were obviously nonsensical.

Now, japanese planes are a bit difficult- they destroyed all the documentation at the war end, but as you see- the aproximate numbers can be found out.
In the case of British and German planes- it is almost a childs play, as the very detailed and accurate documents on the factory testings on the linked page show. So please no mystifications about the different data from different sources.

Just for the record, game A6M2 climbs at approx. 20 m/s

[Zoom2136]

Well you can be assures that whatever performance numbers Oleg uses you will find someone that can offer contradicting evedence, from who knows where (or source).

[PE_Tihi]

Originally Posted by Zoom2136

Well you can be assures that whatever performance numbers Oleg uses you will find someone that can offer contradicting evedence, from who knows where (or source).

The data is not from somewhere, but from the russian book

М. Маслов "Истребитель И-16" - M.Maslov 'I16 Fighter'

Mr. Maslov used in all probability the same sources as Oleg does too -
'Samoletostroenie v SSSR. 1917-1945 gg.' published by the TsAGI- Soviet central aerodynamical institute, and the 'History Of Plane Construction in USSR', by V.B. Shavrov.
If you like that more, i could give you an excerpt from the later book, too.

Even without that much reading, one who has an idea of the WWI plane performances would recognize the 21m/s climb ( or 24 as it earlier was) as wholly unrealistic number.
Contemporaries of I16 type 24 with the engines of about 900-1000 hp had climbs of about 15 m/s at most. For the climbs over 20m/s an 1500 HP + engine was needed.And that means La5/7, or 109G, etc. The value is typical for the mid and late war planes.

And I ll be surprised if all this changes your opinion

[IceFire]

Thank you for the link. I'm always interested in new data (or at least new to me). So...did anyone bring this up with Oleg....back a few years ago when it still mattered? Its still good to have more than one source of data if possible..maybe Oleg has conflicting data. Where does this come from BTW?

[Zoom2136]

Originally Posted by PE_Tihi

The data is not from somewhere, but from the russian book

М. Маслов "Истребитель И-16" - M.Maslov 'I16 Fighter'

Mr. Maslov used in all probability the same sources as Oleg does too -
'Samoletostroenie v SSSR. 1917-1945 gg.' published by the TsAGI- Soviet central aerodynamical institute, and the 'History Of Plane Construction in USSR', by V.B. Shavrov.
If you like that more, i could give you an excerpt from the later book, too.

Even without that much reading, one who has an idea of the WWI plane performances would recognize the 21m/s climb ( or 24 as it earlier was) as wholly unrealistic number.
Contemporaries of I16 type 24 with the engines of about 900-1000 hp had climbs of about 15 m/s at most. For the climbs over 20m/s an 1500 HP + engine was needed.And that means La5/7, or 109G, etc. The value is typical for the mid and late war planes.

And I ll be surprised if all this changes your opinion

And what opinion did I convey... I have mearly made an observation...

[tagTaken2]

Pre-release flight model whingeing.

Yes, we can.

[SlipBall]

I would think that the most accurate data would be from the manufacturer/and military test flight's, prior to the placing of large goverment orders for the aircraft in question. That data is available for some of the aircraft, if not all of them...it would take alot of leg work, and years of your life to examine

[Rama]

Originally Posted by SlipBall

I would think that the most accurate data would be from the manufacturer/and military test flight's, prior to the placing of large goverment orders for the aircraft in question. That data is available for some of the aircraft, if not all of them...it would take alot of leg work, and years of your life to examine

Actually these kind of data concern prototypes, or non-fully equiped aircrafts, that were often particulary well built and adjusted, with carefull and well done covering to get the best performances.

Data from production aircraft are IMHO more representative of combat aircraft.
Data for production aircraft can be retrieved from in-flight receipt test reports (when they were conducted, and when the test centers archives are available....). Normally in each production serie, some machines were intensivelly tested by the respective air forces in order to accept the production serie.
... but... even in these tests, you can find discrepancies in data recorded in test receipts for the same serie.

... I totally agree with your last sentence.

[PE_Tihi]

Originally Posted by SlipBall

I would think that the most accurate data would be from the manufacturer/and military test flight's, prior to the placing of large goverment orders for the aircraft in question. That data is available for some of the aircraft, if not all of them...it would take alot of leg work, and years of your life to examine

Such kind of data is readily available for the planes of the major combatants, excluding Japan. Japanese destroyed their data at the war's end and available test data is mostly from american sources.
For the Russian planes, the source competent for the state trials and directing the plane construction there, TsAGI, has published an excellent book 'Plane construction in the Soviet Union 1917-1945' (Samolotostroennie in SSSR, 1917-1945) which gives very detailed test data on all soviet planes of the era. If you can read a bit of russian, you ll find the book in the net.
7 years ago, at the time of this game's beginnings, you could find only a smal part of the data treasure that can be found in the net today.. You had to have access to books like this one. Now , everyone can read this Bible, thanks not to Guthenberg, but to the net )

The kind of data you can find on the western types is such, that you certainly don't need to sift trough. Once you find such sources :

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/

...you can spare yourself reading the rest.

Lifetime? it takes minutes to find out a parameter of a plane. )))

[PE_Tihi]

Originally Posted by Rama

Actually these kind of data concern prototypes, or non-fully equiped aircrafts, that were often particulary well built and adjusted, with carefull and well done covering to get the best performances.

Data from production aircraft are IMHO more representative of combat aircraft.
Data for production aircraft can be retrieved from in-flight receipt test reports (when they were conducted, and when the test centers archives are available....). Normally in each production serie, some machines were intensivelly tested by the respective air forces in order to accept the production serie.
... but... even in these tests, you can find discrepancies in data recorded in test receipts for the same serie.

... I totally agree with your last sentence.

This is certainly a meaningful remark- prototype test perfomances tend to be higher then the production plane ones. But there is enough test data made on the production planes, too.
In any case, these differences are rather small. For my taste, speed differences of up to 10 km/h ( mind you, the game speeds are mostly accurate), or climb speed differences of 1 m/s would not make me bat an eyelid, nothing to say about writing a post.
Any task done in a too perfectionistic manner can last a lifetime