Soviet fighters and 4.12

[gaunt1]

not correctly:

1. ASh-82FNV (M-82FNV) erly (first) name ASh-82FN (M-82FN, the name ASh - Shvetsov's aircraft engine appeared later)
2. 1850hp - afterburning (n=2500, Pk=1200+-20), 1530hp - nominal (n=2400, Pk=1000+-10), 1630hp on 1500 m (n=2400, Pk=1000+-10), 1430hp on 4550 m (n=2400, Pk=1000+-10).

Yes, I admit I was wrong. I always thought that ASh-82FN and FNV are different engines.

Anyway, the performance figures you written are one of the best sources for LaGG-3/5/7 series, but some of them are for prototypes, like the SN: 39210104 "dubler" (current FM is based on this). Meanwhile I also found these test reports, and one of my friends helped me with russian.

According to him, the figures we need:
SN 37210444, 08.1942 for La-5
SN 39213050, 07-08.1943 for La-5F
SN 39210495, 09-10.1943 for La-5FN

the others are prototypes or low quality versions, (SN 37212383, way too slow) and should be ignored.
Plus, there are useful info about the LaGG-3 series too!

[Mustang]

My 2 cents

I flew spits .. for long time ... they suffered many changes in FM ...
But They feel like the real aircraft

The other day..
I flew La 5 FN and the La 7 ...I did not fly Them the last 2 years..

Something is wrong... I think.. I don't know..

[1984]

Originally Posted by IceFire

For online balance I've used the La-5F which is not all that different from a early 1943 La-5FN and use the FN in early/late 44 scenarios.

i think, with F ok here (if we don't have choice)...

about FN - if you about first combat tests, it's not good because, how you can read, these la-5 had good service etc, well, it's was "combat tests" (something like quote about first tests of il-10) -

Пока происходили все эти «тыловые» коллизии, первые серийные Ла-5ФН поступили в строевые части. По иронии судьбы войсковые испытания Ла-5 с М-82ФН было поручено провести 32-му гвардейскому ИАП (бывшему 434 ИАП), который ранее отказался от первых серийных Ла-5...

Надо сказать, что усилия заводов по устранению дефектов не пропали даром - претензий к самолетам было немного. Заводские бригады, прикомандированные к полку, быстро устроняли все выявленные дефекты и недостатки.

and really poor performance of some planes after combat tests, it's mainly, end of summer and early autumn of 43, after, all was stabilized (i think, you read this, so, sorry for repeat)...


if about la-5FN more - what i'm really can't understand at this moment, late series in RL have metal spars or not (i just have little doubts here... mainly, sourses say yes, for f too), and la-5fn (maybe, and f?) in 44 have new prop vish-105 v4 or not (it's + 11 kph)...

if yes and yes, normal speed of FN 575-580 in 43 (542+33=575, 10.43 test, and 546+33=579, 1.44 test), in 44 can looks like 585-595 (600 with very good quality) kph at sl... plus, little better other characteristics...

and normal weight of la-5fn, it's 3290-3300 or 3300-3350 from some CONTROL tests...

so, what we have in game not so simple question, 44 or late 43 (personally for me, and i'm can be wrong here, of course)...

and not simple question about time of forsazh (more 5 min or not, and what i posted, it's my opinion based on some docs and just logic)...

Also people shouldn't underestimate interest in a wide variety of aircraft.

I love Russian aircraft and have a great interest in them even when my early interests were more with Spitfires and Mustangs. The Yak in particular has become a great interest to me.

oh, yes...

and i'm glad what you love russian planes... like i love spitfires, tempest and all uk-us design scool... i don't know what really want more at first, spifire14 and typhoon, or yak-7b and yak-7-37 (well, maybe yaks, because online wars now simulate only soviet-german front and spitfire14 can be here only like something special in may'45)...

On the subject of versions of Spitfire these are the versions you should actually count:

Spitfire V
Spitfire VIII
Spitfire IX
Seafire III

Everything else is a minor variation change with different supercharger, armament, desert filter, and/or clipped wings. It adds a lot of places on the list but they are not really separate aircraft. There are still more versions of 109 (even if we compress the list due to minor changes to canopy and tail section).

oh, i know it and read your old post...

here, mainly, just fun about name of game and status of aircraft il-2 in game, in generally - it's just funny, like cosmetic advertisement with ugly old woman...

Originally Posted by IceFire

Why this happens on the Yak or La series I'm not sure.

i think, you mean cylinders (or damage of prop pitch, don't know what is this in fact)...

I was recently surprised to see thick black smoke coming from a damaged Yak... something I'd not seen previously so TD may have given this some attention already.

black smoke in engine (hidden fire in engine?), like for bf109, it's old damage...

what yaks not have, it's damage of oil cooler...

Originally Posted by Furio

Examples are legion. Looking at numbers, one wonders how on earth Soviets could successfully fly the P39 against late model FW190 and Bf109, when the RAF discarded the very same plane in 1942 as “unsuitable”.

hm, maybe other using of engines (like in interview with Golodnikov), sometime tactic + lot of field mods, official plant mods, lot of late modification of planes, so why no...

and for RAF need high alt. planes, if i not wrong, but p-39 medium alt. fighter (for cover of il-2+yaks at SL, or against bombers at 3000-4000)... and in game at this alt. some p-39 very similar with fw190 1.42 ata or better (and all p-39 in game have wrong fuel load)...

anyway, more important for soviet pilots in 42-43 was quality of p-39, radio and other good equipment + main part of plane - it's pilot= normal results...

plus service of german aircrafts on east was not so good, i think...

A slower LA7 could be more realistic, yes,

no, la-7 were more faster, than in game now (+10 kph at sl, how min.), but for example turn time not so good, etc (of course, i not talk about some la-7 with some quality problems, or old and repaired planes)...

and apart from high T in cabine, la-7 don't have serious problems in fact, but be used not all 44 (combat tests, after, time for solve of problems of new construction, etc)...

and, anyway, for simulation of effect of high T need docs about this (i think, this not for old game, and it was "problem" of all la with FN, mainly, if pilot use forsazh and long time use his and this problem of all high powered aircrafts like tempest etc, even yak-3 have "good" T in cabine sometimes)...

and in total, it's can be exaggerated, maybe, in some sense...

but what about overall tactical and strategic situation? Late war months saw Luftwaffe fielding very good fighters, but they were outnumbered, plagued by poor manufacturing quality, bad maintenance and sabotage, and often flown by inexperienced pilots.

A “realistic” sim should be able to reproduce the whole picture.

these words - it's what i want see here long time ago...

If such a goal could be reached, the end result should be that early and late war months will be barely playable, too easy for LW in 1941, with almost no survival chances for VVS pilots, and the reverse for 1945.

agree, but you know, all normal online wars (how biggest historical servers and not only historical dogfights, and, because for online all this more important) have in planeset "i-16 and yak-1 vs f-4" for 41, etc, and lot of peoples play and now, believe me if you don't hear about this...

and for more interested game these servers long time ago do some things, but no normal instruments for this, so, sometimes we fly on f-2 and yak-7 1941 in 43...

and here DT can help if just do more detailed modelling of balance from real life, i mean, more performances of different series and modifications and this will be very democratic for all players...

it's not so hard to create, and we don't need all defects, it's will too good...

well, it's what i call "realistic balance" (in fact not only i'm, before and especially now, and if everybody see on development of aviation, all understand this simple thing)...

[1984]

Originally Posted by Jure_502

AFAIK russian pilot flying La-5 and others had to use 6 different handles in cockpit to get fighter on full throttle (emergency boost included).

it's, mainly, wrong interpretation of work of pilot...

something about this (russian, of course) - http://www.airpages.ru/mt/mot61.shtml...


and part of basis, for myth - la-5 (maybe, not for some early la-5 with gargrot) and 7 have oil cooler, blinds after propeller and "zaslonki" on the sides of engine...

so, 3 manipulations for engine cooling, and it's can be modelled in game, why not?

for other planes too, but here need be careful - i remember when read t-62 manual after ww2 tanks (not simple things too), before play, it's really work with many details and if developer modelled this, it's will be not game...

well, what i'm talking, all understand this...


and here need to say about ART-41 (автомат регулирования температуры-41), for yaks'44, and strange performances of some yaks'44 with 518 kph at sl, etc - i and some other peoples think, these speeds of planes with a working art-41...

normal settings of radiators without art-41 in horisontal flight were - по потоку - it's mean someting like 1/3 from "full open", so, like in game this automat reduced speed of bf 109 (art-41 was copy of german automat, written in books)... or like in RL pilots of spit9 be not very satisfied with automatics for radiators and wanted manual control (if i'm not wrong)...

some yaks be old planes, how basis for tests of new features (like yak-9k) etc...

well, all sources need to be corrected, more or less...

[1984]

about defects and problems of soviet aircrafts...


little spray of oil, fear of jammed sliding part (lack of emergency reset before 43), bad quality of glass, sometimes, especially in 41-43 and high T in cabine of some aircrafts (la-5fn and 7, yak-9u, il-2) forced pilots fly sometimes with open canopy or without slinding part = no 10-20 km/h of speed, in middle...

well, for this DT must create option "open canopy" for soviet fighters + hits in cabine=damage of slinding part + pilot can't bailout without opened cabine + bad quality of glass...

it's really can give to us little another, more historically correct performance of soviet aircrafts, but, maybe, i slightly exaggerate or don't know something (maybe, it's all - some mistakes, mainly)...

anyway, if do, need to do this very very correctly...


and anyway option "open canopy" can help for fast bailout, in game, if if can open your canopy in air (very useful, when you fly with damaged oil cooler, and trying fly to the front line, or fly with dark smoke=hidden fire in engine and you can fast bail out before explosion of engine, etc)...



well...

for example, some special wishes of pilots, Ворожейкин Арсений Васильевич (photo attached) -

Фашист, пытаясь скрыться от меня, резко, штопором, поворачивает в противоположную сторону. Чтобы не потерять «фоккера», я повторяю за ним маневр. «Як», сжатый воздухом, как водой, поворачивается с трудом. На моем самолете открытая кабина. Для улучшения обзора я снял верхнюю часть фонаря, поэтому упругие струи воздуха, хлестнув мне в лицо, сорвали очки. Глаза застилает мутная пелена. Противника уже не вижу. Обхитрил? Вырвался?

early laggs (attached) and early migs had quality problems, and fly without slinding part...etc...


other quality problem -

8 сентября Шахурин назначил комиссию по детальному обследованию качества продукции этого предприятия, которая выявила много недостатков. Состоялся «разбор полетов», после чего ситуация стала улучшаться. На очередных контрольных испытаниях Ла-5ФН сер. №№ 0531 и 0540, выпущенные этим заводом в октябре 1943 г., показали скорость у земли 572 и 570 км/ч, а на II границе высотности 625 и 636 км/ч, что было в пределах допуска в 3%. Характерными дефектами этих машин были выпадение хвостового колеса после уборки и по-прежнему обгорание и преждевременный выход из строя свечей ВГ-12.

well, we see what some? la-5 have these defects...

well, about this saying manual for la-5fn too (attached, where have way how resolve this problem for la), and "Как получить наилучшие летные данные на самолете Як с мотором ВК-105ПФ"...


and my opinion about this stuff - if do, need to do this very very correctly, and at once for all sides, but mainly it's all not for old game like il-2, and it's very doubtful and for new sims...

[1984]

Originally Posted by Mustang

My 2 cents

I flew spits .. for long time ... they suffered many changes in FM ...
But They feel like the real aircraft

The other day..
I flew La 5 FN and the La 7 ...I did not fly Them the last 2 years..

Something is wrong... I think.. I don't know..

yeah, it's great when plane fly realistic - i remember how fly on re.2000 vs i-16 and i-153 in online some time ago, it was not simple...


but for me, personally, your comparison a very strange in total...

at first, spits have new FM only in 4.10, BEFORE, realistic FM had all yaks, tempest, all iars, maybe mustang and something more (la-7 have some differences from la-5, like in tests)... so, mainly, "red" allied planes, and no german planes...

now, we have "other" FM for fw190 in 4.11, which became only better (i think so, in compare with yaks, for example), and it's all, end...

well... and now you think what with las not so nice, and in total you want realistic FM for SOME aircrafts...

hmm... what i can say more? i think, you not thinking what you must think...

more realistic FM for la? of course, i want it too, but why not bf 109 next, huh? why you not think about - 50 kph for bf 109e with full open radiators, but think about la-5fn, pilots which don't full open radiators in RL? etc...

for me, it's strange...


well, all these FM, DM, and performances of german aircrafts, AND, very important, time limits of engine... why you don't want talk about this? or want?

for someones la-5fn it's prototype, but 19.2 m/s for fw190 a-4 it's normal?... like real g-2 1.3 ata with 3050 kg and 1310hp of nominal power, lol... etc etc etc...


well, i want say (and said before about this), PLS, give for soviet aircrafts normal attitude and don't say what you know about them MORE than their researchers (some authors of books) and creators... i don't do this about german, uk or us aircrafts, mainly...

cold war is over very long time ago...


and, what i want say here all time...

well, gaunt1, vk-107 have only 25 hours of resource and can't use combat power, how you think... what you can say, in this context, about db-605 with mw-50 - which resource have this engine? especially, when some users in one topic here, wanted 10 min (minimum) of mw-50, and MORE, without aftereffects in air...

and what you think about etalon performances of bf 109 with mw-50, and this in 44-45? at second, if we talking about this...

really interested for me...


or we start, finally, very important common topic like "german fighters and 4.1x"? personally for me, have many questions about this...

especially, because i see strange changes in 4.11, compared with 4.09, for german and soviet planes...

[gaunt1]

Originally Posted by 1984

well, gaunt1, vk-107 have only 25 hours of resource and can't use combat power, how you think... what you can say, in this context, about db-605 with mw-50 - which resource have this engine? especially, when some users in one topic here, wanted 10 min (minimum) of mw-50, and MORE, without aftereffects in air...

and what you think about etalon performances of bf 109 with mw-50, and this in 44-45? at second, if we talking about this...

Im interested only in Zerstörers and Bombers. Single engined German fighters... I dont care. I only like to shoot them down. But their engines were superbly built, they had much longer service life than VK-107 series, even with quality problems, or even the first series of BMW-801 with 30-40 hours. (but it rectified soon) I read somewhere that western (German, American, British) engines had 100-150 hours service life at least. And 10 minutes for MW-50 isnt a joke, its a FACT. And Im not saying that VK-107 couldnt use WEP. It could, but the pilot risked an engine seizure, which could happen in any minute, or in any second! WEP, if used, significantly reduced the already unacceptably short engine life. VK-107 was one of the worst engines of WW2, a very-very poor construction.

And BTW, I really dont understand you. We have 100% RELIABLE test reports from NII VVS, that clearly indicate the difference between the performance of prototype and serial production aircraft. Why do you still think that these reports arent correct? Why do you think that the opinions of pilots or mechanics are more believable? Why do you think that current FM is OK, even though it is obviously modeled after the prototypes?

In the other thread, (http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthr...t=32576&page=2) Z1024 thoroughly researched the performance of the different versions of La-7, and you again flooded the forum with pilots or mechanics opinions. I dont want to insult you with this, but I completely agree with him:

Originally Posted by Z1024

1984 These are all just your (or somebody else's) opinions, not graphs or figures/tables that can be traced to a more or less reliable sources, so their value from the FM perspective is... somewhat questionable, to put it mildly.

Shooting down Luftwaffe fighters is too easy, even in the LaGG-3, which was one of the worst planes of WW2 in RL.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by Dan5ielle

Shooting down Luftwaffe fighters is too easy, even in the LaGG-3, which was one of the worst planes of WW2 in RL.

So how do you feel about a LaGG-3 Series 4 versus Bf109K-4 matchup eh? Or is this just too obvious

[Treetop64]

Originally Posted by IceFire

So how do you feel about a LaGG-3 Series 4 versus Bf109K-4 matchup eh? Or is this just too obvious

I think he might be talking about some modded version of MSCFS because survival is all but impossible when you're in a LaGG-3 fighting against Bf-109s, as it should be.