At what point..

[DroopSnoot]

Originally Posted by Ataros

Then even if they find the right person it takes very very long time for him to decipher, learn and understand this enormously complex code developed by different people in so many years.

That's the real problem right there

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by Rumcajs

It seems you just described a long list of missing features and non gfx problems related to CloD. Which looks contrary to the claim that the game was almost finished and only gfx engine was a problem.

no, you have misunderstood that part

once they realized they had problems with the gfx engine in those last 6 months prior to last years release, it was a scramble to try and solve that part, and non essential other elements were pushed to the back burner. had it been an orderly timed release of their own choosing, then in the following few months those aspects could then have been given the final touches and implemented

Originally Posted by Rumcajs

The game was in early stage of development when it was released. I dare to say it was not even an alpha release. And it's still not a beta and won't be a beta even after we get the mighty patch. Because beta means it has all features and only stability issues and minor problems are being solved..

again, you dont understand how some of these games are put together, and oleg's management style (which worked well for the 10 years preceding, having released about 6 or 7 products like that) is different from most other game software projects that have large funds and 100 or more employees. he uses a modular method where each element (gfx engine, plane models, Flight models, damage model, etc..) are worked on separately by different groups (also helps to reduce the risk of intellectual property theft). only in the final last 3 to 6 months of the 5 year project are all the elements assembled and integrated (oleg gave explanations on this multiple times). working that way they dont have an alpha phase, the integrated product is very much a "near final beta" once it is assembled. in this 2009/2010 creation however the problem is that the core element that everything else fits into, is the gfx engine, and that is what let them down and caused the additional 12 months delay (with 6 months lost trying to fix the old one, and the last 6 months to now develop a new one).

a good example of this is the way they very recently "suddenly" implemented drivable vehicles, with us being able to control them in 1e person. this is not something new they have been working on in the last months. it is something that had been discussed during WiP as far back as 6 years ago, most work had been done on in the last years, and very recently with just a couple of months of "final touches" was implemented (and we might well get with this new gfx engine patch, or its final version that comes a few weeks later). similarly we can/could/will get dynamic weather, dynamic campaign engine, skeletal animation of crew in aircraft etc..

once you now get this long awaited gfx engine patch, you will have the game more or less as originally intended 12 month ago. meaning, the following 6 months they would normally work on polishing of those other integrated parts (in game objects, map issues, etc) or adding new elements in (like a dynamic server, or dynamic weather), and fix problems reported following release (like fine tune flight models and minor plane errors).

"the problem" right now however is that with the time and money lost (for them, oleg/luthiers group and 1c) they are keen on quickly releasing a sequel that their normal customer base will then buy, and i fear they will not prioritize the fixes we now need (once the game is actually running well)

[Rumcajs]

Originally Posted by zapatista

again, you dont understand how some of these games are put together, and oleg's management style (which worked well for the 10 years preceding, having released about 6 or 7 products like that) is different from most other game software projects that have large funds and 100 or more employees. he uses a modular method where each element (gfx engine, plane models, Flight models, damage model, etc..) are worked on separately by different groups (also helps to reduce the risk of intellectual property theft). only in the final last 3 to 6 months of the 5 year project are all the elements assembled and integrated (oleg gave explanations on this multiple times). working that way they dont have an alpha phase, the integrated product is very much a "near final beta" once it is assembled. in this 2009/2010 creation however the problem is that the core element that everything else fits into, is the gfx engine, and that is what let them down and caused the additional 12 months delay (with 6 months lost trying to fix the old one, and the last 6 months to now develop a new one).

Well i think i have a good grasp of what you are explaining. But it doesn't matter which way they take to get to the desired result (if they actually get there). You listed the missing key features beside the gfx problems. We are one year after the game was released. And we are not talking about some marginal functionality. So no, the game has never entered beta phase. It is in alpha now (it somehow works and there is still a lot to be implemented).

BTW the separate development process as you described explains a lot. Prolonged separation of developed modules without early integration and constant testing usually doesn't lead to good results. I guess that was what they had to get rid of first when Luthier took over.
Just doesn't it make things worse when they had separate development teams with different programming habits? Doesn't it add to the mess they are now trying to solve? I feel with them being a C# developer too. Bad design/management decisions can't be solved by programmers. So i have great sympathy to those who keep the good work coming.

[Art-J]

Originally Posted by priller26

Im not looking to flame or trolling..simple question..at some point is it likely or feasible that some designers come in and really take over and fix this game? It just seems a half year has passed on promising graphics fixes..and they just dont work. At some point, it would seem you have to really consider if the devs can fix this thing.

The big problem is you have to find these designers/programmers first and apart from guys who created RoF, DCS etc. there are no producers and publishers out there who are interested in making proper sims for PC gamers only. It's difficult to start competition between programmers when next to Maddox team nobody seems to give a flying sh.t about WWII aircraft. As a result, we're stuck with Luthier whether we want it or not.