A pilot compares cockpits between the Spitfire and the 109

[Gilly]

Originally Posted by Zatoichi_Sanjuro

Thanks for vids,

he's more than a little biased but interesting all the same.

Does anyone remember what documentary concludes with the guy holding up the BF109's cannon round and comparing it to the Spitfires?

It was on during the BoB series late last year. Think it was either 'the gathering storm' or the 'south coast trail'. BBC history website should have them both somewhere although BBC 4 are repeating a fair few at the minute.

www.bbc.co.uk/history/battle_of_britain

Great video on there of Douggie Bader and Paddy Barthrop in a bar discussing the BoB. Bader answers the question of 'what did you think of them as you dived in for attack' with beautiful aplomb!!!

[Cryptic Phant0m]

Originally Posted by Zatoichi_Sanjuro

Thanks for vids,

he's more than a little biased but interesting all the same.

Does anyone remember what documentary concludes with the guy holding up the BF109's cannon round and comparing it to the Spitfires?

Here is an image that was posted before on 1C forums.

[QBlackDeathQ]

Originally Posted by FOZ_1983

Miserable sod seems to complain about them both!!

A narrow target is a hard target to hit! The smaller the target you present to the enemy the harder you are to hit. Prone position versus the standing position. fighter planes have become smaller rather then larger. F-22 raptor is big unlike the Chinese version that is much smaller. bigger is not always better! Pilot is what makes the fighter work, not the plane!

[bobbysocks]

haha...aint that the truth??!! i have chased ac around the country to get the work done before they dropped dead. then there was the door bars after 9/11.... get the whole fleet done in 3 days. yeah...no problem...

[flynlion]

That cockpit door AD was a real pain on the smaller Crj 200, it meant that the flight crew lost our closet and had no place to stow our bags. Don't worry, pilots will put up with anything if you give 'em a jet to fly. I dont miss that business one bit.

What kind of work do you do Bobby?

[bobbysocks]

in years past i was a ramp supe at PIT for the commuter ac...usairways express. we had beech 1900s, saab 320s, J-31s ( what a joy they were ), dash 8s and dornier 328s. i got out just as the rjs were starting to take over. i did have a chance to see the canada air and embraer ( dont remember the number...was a 50 seater tho ). we ourselves ran close to 300 flights a day and mainline a little more than that. now PIT maybe has 50 flights total. did that for about 5 or 6 years and then got a job with mainline scheduling mtx on the ac, setting up the work orders for the stations...weekly checks, a checks...all that happiness. was interesting and fun..sort of. i bailed out of the airline biz when airways was teetering on going defunct.

[flynlion]

Far out, I think you and I were at PIT around the same time (1998-2000?). I was an FO for Mesa on the 1900 then, later became a Capn on the Erj (the 50 seater is the EMB-145) and finally the Crj 900 based outta CLT. The last time I saw PIT it was like a ghost town.

What do ya do nowadays? I'm working part time as a tow pilot for a local glider club in South Carolina. It's lotsa fun but sure don't pay much LoL.

[bobbysocks]

it is a small world.... yep i was there during 98 and left june 2000. my zone was gates 17 to 22a where they were pushing back the "dorks" ( dorniers ). beautiful planes but you couldnt keep them in the air. but when they were short staffed ( as in always ) i would run 9 - 22a. i always had bunch of 1900s on my gates. i do miss that job. there was NEVER a dull moment. that wasnt your ac that the police attack dog got out of its crate in was it? the pilot trying to be a good guy left the bulkhead separating the cargo bay and the pax compartment down to give fido some air. well, somehow the beastie got loose and came growling over the wall chasing the crew off the plane! they had to slam the doors shut to keep him from getting out. crap like that wasnt an oddity it was a daily occurance..lol but the job didnt pay jack$#!t and my arms still ache from tossing bags...but i had so much fun there...and i miss the flight benes. adventures in non-rev travel. damn i have a whole lot of memories flashing through my mind. they closed the E gates maybe 6 years ago. it sat empty for years....they tore down one wing to construct a baggage system for usair. the latest plans are to turn it into the new employee parking lot.

mesa...now if i remember didnt you guys become "something midwest"? most of the ports you guys flew to are shut down. others are still in service but not from PIT.

glider tow huh? wish you were closer. i had been kicking around the idea of getting back in the air for the past several years and was looking into sailplanes. but the places aroudn here all folded up. now i have my eye on something else. but i dont want to mess with towers, transponders, ...the FAA..haha. no chance of you instructing or flying air taxi, ferrying ac parts?? didnt you do that while you were building time? i would think that "should" put more $$ in your pocket and you could name your hours. i never got that for so i dont know the ins and outs of that. do yo ever get back up this way??

[bobbysocks]

wow actually lucked out and got free time to do this right now.... so this is a pilots vs pilot comparison of the spit Mk1 vs the 109 E from the boys back then..


CLIMB

F/O D. H. Watkins of 611 Squadron wrote in his Combat Report for 2 June 1940:

At 08.18 hrs 2 E/A Me109 sighted attempting to get on my tail - with emergency boost climbed away into sun - on turning saw two E/A crossing my path about 300 ft below flying line astern 200 yards apart - color silvery brown on top sides & fuselage - blue undersides and small black crosses. I attacked rear machine & opened fire from 200 yards on its starboard quarter - came into dead astern position at 200 yards and firing continuously saw parts of port wing break off - corrected aim and machine shuddered violently and did flat climbing turn and then dived vertically out of my sight. 13

P/O Peter St. John of 74 Squadron wrote in his Combat Report for 10 July 1940:

I was No. 3 in Yellow section patrolling over a convoy off Deal at about 10,000 ft. C.B.1200 visibility good. I sighted three enemy aircraft below and to the right. I informed Yellow leader of them; we went into line astern and went down to engage enemy aircraft. On the way down I saw another formation of 109's to the left and slightly down. Yellow leader had seen them also and we climbed and attacked from the rear. The 109's split up and I picked one and gave him a short deflection burst. I did not have time to see the effect of the burst as another 109 was on my tail. I outclimbed the 109 without difficulty. When I got on his tail I gave him all the ammunition I had and saw my tracers going in. The 109 flew off very unsteadily towards the French coast. Having finished all my ammunition I returned to Base. In my estimation there were about thirty 109's. I did not see any bombs. 14

F/LT John Ellis of No. 610 recorded in his Combat Report for 24 July 1940:

I was leading three sections of 610 Squadron on a patrol at 12,000' off Dover on 24/7/40. We took off at about 1115. At 1130 I sighted three Me 109's three thousand feet above us and flying west in the opposite direction to us. As I had to use full throttle to catch the e/a the remaining two sections got left behind. The formation of 109's broke up on being attacked and I singled out one of them. I opened fire at 200 yds. on the first burst and he immediately rolled on to his back and dived vertically, he then pulled out and proceeded to climb practically vertically. He carried out this manoeuvre four times and each time I got in a good burst while he was climbing. Throughout these evolutions bluish smoke was coming from a point about a foot from each wing tip. On his final climb I got in a good burst of roughly 5 seconds from dead astern, the Me 109 suddenly belched forth clouds of black smoke and white smoke, turned on its back and spiralled down in a vertical dive. It looked to be completely out of control. I followed the burning aircraft down until it entered a cloud at 3000' still going down almost vertically. F/O Wilson & Sgt Arnfield saw this e/a go down. 15

S/L John Ellis of No. 610 Squadron wrote in his Combat Report for 12 August 1940:

I was leading 610 Sqdn which was detailed to intercept raid approaching Dungeness... In the dogfight I chased one solitary Me. 109 flying very fast and diving slightly. He rolled on to his back as I opened fire and I continued firing as he started his vertical dive, I could see my bullets entering the side of his fuselage as I followed him down. I broke off the attack as I was convinced he was diving out of control, he was also drawing away from me rapidly. F/O Lamb, who was behind me, later reported he saw this e/a continue its dive into the sea and break up.
I climbed up again to 15,000 over Dungeness and spotted another Me 109 climbing into the sun. I caught him at about 20,000. He started to spin down to the left soon after I opened fire. I fired the remaining ammunition at very close range as he was spinning, but he presented an extremely difficult target. When I broke off the attack his engine was ticking over slowly and he was still spinning violently and he appeared to be out of control. Noticing a scrap going on just above I left the Me 109 and returned to re-arm. 16

Sgt. H. Chandler of No. 610 Squadron wrote in his Combat Report for 14 August 1940:

Attacked e/a which seemed to be above. Attempted to get on his tail, he immediately turned left to return the attack. We manoeuvered for a long while, during which he fired quite a fair amount. I got two short bursts which had no effect. After about 12-15 minutes he tried to out-climb me, I immediately went into fully fine pitch and easily caught up. The instant at which I opened fire, he rolled over and went straight down. I followed him and he started to smoke and eventually went into the sea. I steered 300° and after about 6-8 minutes made a landfall 3 miles West of Dungeness. 17

F/Lt. L. G. Olive of No. 65 Squadron recorded in his Combat Report of 13 August 1940:

At about 14.55 hours on the 13th August, 1940, "A" Flight took off to intercept 3 e/a flying from Chatham but no interception was made. On returning to land we were instructed to join up with "B" Flight which we did about 15.40. We intercepted about 15 to 20 Me.109's flying at about our own height (19,000 ft.) engaged about 5 with my section in a dog fight and noticed four above to the east at about 23,000. I climbed and after a dog fight shot down the rearmost which blew up and descended in flames. The remainder dived for France. I was then returning when I noticed four Me.109's at about 26,000 ft. I climbed and approached down sun and shot down another in flames. I saw it explode on the way down. I then started to descend when about 30 Me.109's tried to attack me, but as they were the same level I outclimbed them into the sun and attacked the nearest one of my pursurers. They gave up the chase and I was diving to cloud level when I saw a single Me.109 going back to France. I attacked at about 430 A.S.I. and fired about a four second burst and noticed him rock violently and pieces flew off the machine. I fired the remaining ammunition into him before he reached the cloud, when I lost sight of him. I then returned to Manston and landed. 18

F/Lt. L. G. Olive again noted that he out climbed Me.109s in his Combat Report of 24 August 1940:

At approximately 1530 I was patrolling with my flight following B Flight when we were instructed to intercept enemy raid. I saw about 40-60 bombers heavily escorted by fighters. Some of the fighters were above us. We climbed to 28,000 feet and attacked down sun. On my first attack I fired a full deflection on an Me.110 which immediately threw out clouds of white smoke, apparently Glycol. I last saw it diving about 10,000 feet below still throwing out smoke but could not observe it further as there were many e/a in the vicinity. I climbed above them and opened fire on the rear one which tried to fire from a gun in his tail. I could not observe the effect of my fire as I was being attacked by five ME 109's from above. I managed to out climb them and attacked the rear ME with my remaining ammunition but observed no results. Returned and landed. 19

P/O N. Agazarian of No. 609 Squadron wrote in his Combat Report for 26 September 1940:

I then climbed up to attack an Me 109 when I saw another diving past me - I turned and dived after it. It zoomed and I followed getting in a short burst from about 400 yards. I then gave my machine full throttle and revs and caught up the 109 hand over fist. When about 50 yards away and directly behind I gave him the rest of my ammunition. He went on to his back and spun down - I followed him down - the spin straightened out into a vertical dive so that I could not keep up with him. I lost interest and climbed up at about 3,000 ft. and went home. 20

F/Lt Eric Thomas of No. 222 Squadron wrote in his Combat Report for 9 October 1940:

I was leading the Squadron on patrol at 30,000 feet roughly over Chatham. I followed 41 Squadron down to 28,000 feet and then saw about 5 Me.109's directly above at 29,000 feet. I climbed up into them and they made for a layer of cirrus, through which I followed them. I increased revs. to 3000 and gradually outclimbed them and gave a 4 seconds burst into the belly of one enemy aircraft. Glycol streamed out of the port radiator and he went down in a shallow dive. I followed him down and gave a series of 1 second bursts at 100 yards, down to 3000 feet. During these attacks, glycol came out of the starboard radiator and black smoke came from the engine. The enemy aircraft landed with undercarriage up about 4 miles N. of Hawkinge, which burnt very slowly, a small amount of blue smoke coming out of the cockpit. Civilians then arrived and I saw them approaching the pilot, who was standing about 30 yards from his aircraft holding a white handkerchief and with his arms raised in surrender. The enemy aircraft had a completely yellow nose, cowling and rudder. 21

[bobbysocks]

engine power


P/O John Freeborn of No. 74 Squadron used his boost cut out over Dunkirk on 24 May 1940:

As I broke away two ME.109's got onto my tail. I dived steeply with the 2 e/a following me, one was on my tail and the other on my port quarter. As I dived to ground level I throttled back slightly and the e/a on my tail over shot me and I was able to get a three seconds burst at a range of about 50 to 100 yards. He seemed to break away slowly to the right as though he was badly hit and I think he crashed. The second ME.109 then got onto my tail but I got away from it by using the boost cut out. 43

P/O Colin Gray (NZ), with No. 54 Squadron over Dunkirk, recalled the first time he used emergency power. Gray was engaged in a mêlée with Me 110s and 109s on 25 May 1940, when after destroying a Me 109 E and his Spitfire being hit by several cannon shells, he broke off combat:

By this time, as usual, there was not a soul in sight, and I decided the best course of action was to set off for home as speedily as possible. I pressed the emergency boost tit, which poured on the fuel, but was only for use in dire emergency as it could overstress the engine. I considered this was justifiable under the circumstances, since I was still inside France and could not see anyone coming to my assistance. 44

On another recounting of this incident Gray noted specifically "I selected +12 lbs (emergency boost) and continued my climb...".44b Gray also related a harrowing incident that occurred on 31 August when Hornchurch was bombed, the order given "54 Squadron, take off, take off, for Christ's sake take off", followed by section leaders ordering the Pilots to: "...press their emergency boost tits (giving double take off power)". 45

P/O Al Deere of No. 54 Squadron recorded in his Combat Report for 26 May 1940:

On approaching Gravelines at 17,000 feet two enemy aircraft were sighted. Red Leader and I gave chase using 12 boost. 29

F/LT Brian Lane, serving with No. 19 Squadron, wrote of his 26 May 1940 combat wherein emergency power allowed him to escape a very dangerous situation indeed, his aircraft suffering only light damage:

I was beginning to breathe again when rat-tat-tat behind me and a tracer appeared over the cockpit, the bullets churning up a patch of foam in the water a hundred yards ahead. It was then that I remembered the automatic boost cut-out, a device giving maximum power from the engine for use in emergency. I pushed the lever down and felt the surge of power from the Merlin in front of me as the aircraft accelerated. Twisting and turning, I managed to keep clear of the Hun bullets, very nearly hitting the water several times while doing so. One of the 109s had evidently climbed up to one side and now came diving in at me from the beam. I turned towards him and gave him the last of my ammunition at point-blank range. I think he went straight in, for as I drew away with my superior speed I could see only two Messerschmitts behind me. 46

Of particular interest is Lane's official combat report of this incident, in which +12 boost is specifically mentioned:

A dog fight now ensued and I fired burst at several E/A, mostly deflection shots. Three E/A attached themselves to my tail, 2 doing astern attacks whilst the third attacked from the beam.
I managed to turn towards this E/A and fired a good burst in a front quarter deflection attack.
The E/A then disappeared and was probably shot down. By this time I was down to sea level, and made for the English coast, taking violent evasive action.
I gradually drew away from E/A using 12 lb. boost which gave an air speed of 300 m.p.h. 47

P/O M. P. Brown of 611 Squadron recorded in his Combat Report for 2 June 1940:

When patrolling Dunkirk at 15,000 feet with "A" Flight, ME.109's suddenly appeared in our formation. I attacked an ME.109 using deflection but no apparent hits. I then realized that an ME.109 was on my tail firing - I dived to evade e/a but was followed down by e/a. My engine was missing and I went down to beach, it picked up again and I went over Dunkirk at about 100 feet, still followed by E/A. When I opened the boost cut out I felt no more shots from e/a and found I had evaded him. 48

F/LT John Ellis of No. 610 recorded in his Combat Report for 12 June 1940:

I was the leader of Blue section 610 Sqdn. which was ordered to take off at 0745 hrs on 12/6/40. There were two aircraft in the section as Blue 3 had trouble starting and when he did take off he failed to contact us. Immediately we were airborne we were ordered to 'vector 120' and 'gate'. 49

F/Lt. John Webster, of No. 41 Squadron, engaged in a night time interception of a He 111 at Tees Mouth recording in his Combat Report for 19 June 1940:

I was about 5 miles North East of A/C and chased after it. I had to use 12 lbs boost to catch it. 50

F/Lt D. P. Kelly of No. 74 recorded in his Combat Report for 28 July 1940:

I was Blue No. 1 of No. 74 Squadron and was flying about 300 yards astern and to port of Red Leader when we saw some Me.109's a little below us (we were at 18,000 ft). Red section turned and dived down to port. I likewise turned to port but found a formation in Vic of 3 Me.109's pass about 300 yards across my nose. I took a snap shot at them but noticed no effect. Immediately after this I saw 3 Me. 109's to port diving down very fast. I found it necessary to use boost cutout and dived down on the leading one whom I managed to get on the tail of by diving steeply and turning left. I closed to 250 yards and opened fire with slight deflection and saw after a few seconds the machine turn left, dive and a tongue of flame appeared on port side. It then dived down into the sea burning. Blue 2 confirms that he saw smoke and glycol coming from enemy aircraft before he broke away to engage 2nd. enemy aircraft. 51

F/Lt. John Webster, of No. 41 Squadron, high-tailed it home using 12 boost on 28 and 29 July 1940, recording in his combat reports:

I returned home at 0 feet 12 boost, and landed at Hornchurch. 52

On reaching sea level I used twelve boost and made for the coast. Seeing that my aircraft was damaged I brought it back to Hornchurch. 53

P/O George Bennions, of No. 41 Squadron, engaged in a combat on 28 July 1940 demonstrating that emergency boost was used for offense as well:

...I ordered Yellow Section to carry out a Number One attack on this aircraft. Using the emergency boost I closed right in using full deflection and firing from 200 Yards to 100 Yards. The enemy turned over on its side and went almost vertically downwards, I followed using full boost and gave two more bursts of about 4 Seconds each from a position slightly left of astern, and after the second burst the whole of the enemy fuselage was enveloped in black smoke... 54

P/O Art Donahue's account of using +12 boost during his first combat of 5 August 1940, whilst flying Spitfires with No. 64 Squadron out of Kenley, is typical:

“There are bandits approaching from the north” In quick response to this information, our leader sang out a command: “All Tiger aircraft, full throttle! Full Throttle!” That meant to use the emergency throttle that gave extra power to our engines. I was flying in our leader’s section, on his left. As he gave the command “Full throttle”, his plane started to draw ahead, away from me. I pushed in my emergency throttle in response to the command, the first time I had ever used it, and my engine fairly screamed with new power. I felt my plane speeding up like a high spirited horse that has been spurred. 55

F/Lt. John Webster, of No. 41 Squadron, once again noted use of 12 boost in his Combat Report of 8 August 1940:

I had no difficulty (using 12 boost) in overtaking the Me. 109's either in diving or level flight. 56

F/O R.W. Wallens, of No. 41 Squadron, recorded in his Combat Report for 11 August 1940:

12 lbs boost used by all Green Section. 57

41 Squadron, now flying from Catterick in 13 Group, intercepted the 15 August 1940 raid on the east coast. The Intelligence Officer noted:

All pilot's report e/a fast and used 12 lbs boost to catch them. 58

F/Lt George Gribble of 54 Squadron flying from Hornchurch, recorded in his Combat Report for 15 August 1940:

I dived to the attack, using 12 boost and fired a long burst at one from astern. It seemed to "shudder" in mid air and then dived away steeply with black smoke coming from it. 59

F/O Hugh Dundas (later Group Captain), flying Spitfires with No. 616 out of Leconfield, in the northern part of 12 Group, wrote of scrambling to intercept Ju 88s from Denmark on 15 August 1940 :

I set a course and rammed the throttle 'through the gate' , to get the maximum power output, permissible for only a very limited time. Some of the others were ahead of me, some behind. We did not bother to wait for each other or try to form up into flights and sections. We raced individually across the coast and out to sea. About fifteen miles east of Bridlington I saw them, to the left front, and slightly below - the thin, pencil shapes of German twin engine bombers, flying in loose, straggling, scattered formation toward the coast. 60

F/Lt Robert F. Boyd, flying with No. 602 out of Westhampnett, wrote an interesting statement in his combat report for 18 August 1940 regarding emergency boost :

I then dived for sea level 10 miles from Coast, saw five aircraft I thought were Hurricanes and climbed to them for protection. They proved to be Me 109's which chased me back to coast, one continuing chase after others had left me: on seeing this I went into a turn, got onto its tail closed to 70 yards and fired 2 second burst. I saw this A/C hit the sea in flames... My Spitfire easily outdistanced Me 109's at 10 lbs boost 2800 r.p.m. 61

P/O James Morton, with No. 603 at Hornchurch, wrote in his diary for 28 August 1940:

We were now 3/4 way over the Channel, so I turned for home and dived to sea level. On the way down I noticed I was being followed so pressed the tit and kept very close to the water. The chap was 6-800' behind and I was slowly gaining. I kept on at sea level to the bottom of the cliffs near Hawkinge and came up and did a tight circuit of the old airship hanger, but the chap had gone. I felt rather relieved in the Channel as I thought most of my rounds were gone. Actually I had about 100 rounds left per gun. 'Tigger' (Morton's Spitfire) with the tit pressed and the dive from 4,000' was doing a steady 320 with a great long trail of smoke. I wonder if the Hun claimed anything. 62

P/O Ronald Berry of 603 Squadron shot down Oberleutnant Helmut Rau I/JG3 flying a Me 109 E-4 on 31 August, recording in his Combat Report:

As I had no oxygen, I had to leave the squadron at 22,000 feet and waited below in the sun for straggling enemy aircraft. After patrolling for 30 minutes, I saw a Me109 proceeding very fast. To overhaul him I had to press the emergency boost - indicated speed - 345. I caught the enemy aircraft off Shoeburyness. I opened fire at close range and fired all my ammunition until the enemy aircraft streamed with smoke and pancaked on the mud at Shoeburyness. 63

Sgt Jack Stokoe of 603 Squadron claimed a 109 destroyed, probably that of Oberleutnant Bauer of III/JG53, recording on his Combat Report of 1 September 1940:

At about 17.30 we were patrolling Manston at 12,000' when control informed us Canterbury was being dive bombed. About five miles south of the town when at about 3,000' a Me 109, silver with black crosses, dived past my nose flattened out about 50 feet up and headed south. I executed a steep turn, pushed in boost override, and sat on his tail. At about 50 yards, I gave him one small burst with little effect, closed to 30 yards, and gave a slightly longer burst. Black smoke poured from him as I overshot him. The a/c crashed in a field, turned over two or three times and burst into flames in a clump of trees. 70 bullets were fired from each gun. 64