Real world: Fw-190 VS. BF-109

[ButcherBird]

Some good information presented here. I've read alot about the Luftwaffe over the years and the BF-109 and FW-190 are my two favorite aircraft of all time.

From 1st hand accounts reported from allied and axis pilots i've always considered multiple variants of the 190 to be the best all around fighter for Germany and maybe the entire WWII.

[bobbysocks]

matt...take a look at these...

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/m...p-11sept44.jpg

maybe this might help you make you your mind. remember..devs dont jump in the seats of the real planes when they make these games. and actually real combat would not sell games. many boys flew over 60, 70, 80+ missions and never achieved ace.....

[kozzm0]

If the Russians figured the 190 was a low-speed turner, I think they kind of had it wrong. Its wing loading is way too high.

In training I've got the 190d9 to work better than 109k4 now, against b17's. it climbs more efficiently, and its quick roll allows you to dive on the targets in a curved slashing motion that is nearly impossible to hit. Since it climbs better, it usually has better closing speed at the pass, combined with the quick roll and jink ability the b17 gunners don't even start firing until you've already passed them, then they have about 1 to 2 seconds to try to pick the right direction and lead before you're out of range. Good armament too, plenty of it, and high rate of fire.

I wonder if the d9 could bnz as well as a k4 in online free-for-alls.

[Gaston]

Originally Posted by bobbysocks

matt...take a look at these...

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/m...p-11sept44.jpg

maybe this might help you make you your mind. remember..devs dont jump in the seats of the real planes when they make these games. and actually real combat would not sell games. many boys flew over 60, 70, 80+ missions and never achieved ace.....

-This 11 sept combat report is very interesting, but does not contradict in any way the FW-190A being a low-altitude turn fighter that handles poorly at high speeds or high altitudes: They encounter the P-51 at 23 000 ft., and are out-turned in sustained turns starting from a fairly high speed (6G turn): If the FW-190As kept full throttle, which as a group they would tend to do, then they were at a further didadvantage compared to the individual initiative of downthrottling below the 250 MPH speed that appear to be the critical speed below which sustained turn performance improves greatly for the FW-190A (see Italy test with front-line pilots vs P-47 in 1944, and inumerable other sources...).

In addition, at 23 000 ft it is tempting to spiral down, which would keep speeds above 250 MPH IAS even after 5 X 360° turns. At high speeds, the FW-190A could not match turns with the P-51 without spiraling down: Its high speed turning performance was too poor, and this in effect "locked" it in a downward spiral because lowering the speeds towards 250 MPH makes things noticeably worse before they get better below that...

Note the dive to low altitude reaches extremely high speeds, 600 MPH, and the P-51 pilot says: "I am convinced he was more out of control than I was", this despite spotty stability that is endemic to the P-51 at much above 400 MPH. (Just like the Me-109G's twitching, and the Gustav in addition has a slower top dive speed of about 500 MPH, but still a better pull-out trimmed tail-heavy than either the P-51 and even more so the FW-190A...)

At low altitudes the P-51 escapes the 190As with a shallow dive and speed alone.

Below 250 MPH, and at low altitudes, the real FW-190A was unexpectedly excellent in sustained turns, especially downthrottled, but its high-speed handling was truly terrible, leading many US pilots to say it went out of control easily in "snap-stalls" compared to 109s... Despite this, it could generate high Gs at high speeds with little stick effort, this because this aircraft could "stall" towards the inside of the turn, with full three-axis control, a condition which I call "mushing": The nose abruptly "pitched-up", suddenly sharpening the turn even more at first, but then the aircraft carried on past the theoretical circular turn in a decelerating and less curved line, and that deceleration created "false Gs": Punishing severely the pilot while decelerating and carrying past the ideal curve in an "elongated" turn...

This was most obvious in dive pull-outs, but could occur in some horizontal turns, though in turns the aircraft tended more to drop a wing and snap out of the turn right after the abrupt "pitch-up" (because of usually less symmetrical wing loads in a turn than in a dive pull-out)...

It took me several years of research to untangle all this while I was designing my re-design of the old "Air Force" boardgame system, which you can download for free here:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/t...708#5031083708

Gaston

P.S. The Me-109 "D" file is the good one of 3...

G.

[bobbysocks]

hope these help..

http://yarchive.net/mil/me109.html

http://www.pilotfriend.com/flight_re...reports/33.htm

http://www.acepilots.com/german/bf109.html

http://www.acepilots.com/german/fw190.html

http://www.acepilots.com/discussions..._fighters.html

http://worldwartwozone.com/forums/sh...-190-vs-Bf-109

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0YLL...eature=related

<<< a u -tube german ww2 pilots opinion

Sorry sometimes i have way too much free time @ work... but i do know that allied pilots were told to get the 109 into a left turning dogfight. due to the engine torque it stalled easy or easier that way.