Planes

[Soviet Ace]

Originally Posted by manintrees

It's blowing my mind that none of you have mentioned the P-47 Thunderbolt or the ass-whoopin' F6F Hellcat from the PTO.
Both of these planes have insane kill ratios and are well known for their effectivness versus the FW 190's/Me 109's and the Zeroes respectively.

Obviously the P47 is call the "Jug" not because of the way it looks. The plan was a monstrosity! It often, like the P38, fell victim to both Me-109's and FW-109's. Many USAAF Pilots said that they disliked the P-47, and when the P-51 came into action, they all were jumping for a try. The P-47 fell victim in two VERY important categories.

1. Slow climb rate.

2. Turning was a problem.

What it did excel in was: 1. Diving (That thing fell like a stone) and 2. Armament, and Weaponry.

So against the Me-109 and FW-190, the P47 was a very eaten up plane, unless it was flown by a fairly good pilot (ie Gabby Gabreski).

[manintrees]

Originally Posted by Soviet Ace

Obviously the P47 is call the "Jug" not because of the way it looks. The plan was a monstrosity! It often, like the P38, fell victim to both Me-109's and FW-109's. Many USAAF Pilots said that they disliked the P-47, and when the P-51 came into action, they all were jumping for a try. The P-47 fell victim in two VERY important categories.

1. Slow climb rate.

2. Turning was a problem.

What it did excel in was: 1. Diving (That thing fell like a stone) and 2. Armament, and Weaponry.

So against the Me-109 and FW-190, the P47 was a very eaten up plane, unless it was flown by a fairly good pilot (ie Gabby Gabreski).

My knowledge of the P-47 is entirely from the book "Thunderbolt" so I may only know the good stuff. Regarding the nickname "Jug", it apparently is from the way it looks. The pilots named it that as it looked like a milk jug.

[juz1]

Originally Posted by Soviet Ace

Obviously the P47 is call the "Jug" not because of the way it looks. The plan was a monstrosity! It often, like the P38, fell victim to both Me-109's and FW-109's. Many USAAF Pilots said that they disliked the P-47, and when the P-51 came into action, they all were jumping for a try. The P-47 fell victim in two VERY important categories.

1. Slow climb rate.

2. Turning was a problem.

What it did excel in was: 1. Diving (That thing fell like a stone) and 2. Armament, and Weaponry.

So against the Me-109 and FW-190, the P47 was a very eaten up plane, unless it was flown by a fairly good pilot (ie Gabby Gabreski).

not forgetting in all theatres the pilots were good at counteracting their planes weakness with group tactics, learnt mainly from the inflexibility of the RAF in the early parts of the war....and it does need saying again how STUPIDLY TOUGH the P47 was...
jug for juggernaut?
________
Ford trimotor

[mondo]

Originally Posted by Soviet Ace

So against the Me-109 and FW-190, the P47 was a very eaten up plane, unless it was flown by a fairly good pilot (ie Gabby Gabreski).

Thats not true at all! It excelled as a fighter, its only problem was range and low altitude speed (which was still on par with a Spitfire IXLF). Just look at its loss record. It had one of the best of the entire war. Above 20,000ft where they operated in 1943 they held all the cards over the 109G6's and 109A5's. Even later on when it was moved to ground attack it still excelled as a fighter due to its excellent roll rate and ability to hold its energy.

[Soviet Ace]

Originally Posted by mondo

Thats not true at all! It excelled as a fighter, its only problem was range and low altitude speed (which was still on par with a Spitfire IXLF). Just look at its loss record. It had one of the best of the entire war. Above 20,000ft where they operated in 1943 they held all the cards over the 109G6's and 109A5's. Even later on when it was moved to ground attack it still excelled as a fighter due to its excellent roll rate and ability to hold its energy.

Unless your fighting at a fairly high altitude, and are not in a turn and burn dogfight; the P47 was chewed up. Me-109's whether it be a "F" or a "G" model, the P47 was given a good work over. Now if your flying a Me-109G6, then it's more of an even match since both planes are heavily weighed down, and aren't very turn and burn. But against the faster more nimble 109's the P47 was worked over.

[mondo]

Originally Posted by Soviet Ace

Unless your fighting at a fairly high altitude, and are not in a turn and burn dogfight; the P47 was chewed up. Me-109's whether it be a "F" or a "G" model, the P47 was given a good work over. Now if your flying a Me-109G6, then it's more of an even match since both planes are heavily weighed down, and aren't very turn and burn. But against the faster more nimble 109's the P47 was worked over.

Kill/Loss records from both the Luftwaffe and USAF would disagree with your opinion The P47 was by far the safest combat aircraft of the war. Its loss rate to enemy aircraft is quite ridiculously low!

Thats a completely inaccurate blanket statement. The performance differences between say a G2 and G14 were extreme and the F2/4 model was outclassed completely by 1944. And by then P47's were using 150 grade fuel which gave a major performance boost at low and medium altitude and gave them a similar top speed and acceleration to match 109's used at that point like the G10 at any altitude. The 190 was more of a threat...as JG2 and JG26 were both equipped with them and very few 109's and met much of the initial threat posed by aircraft from the UK in 43/44.

You need to stop watching history channel and read some combat reports and some books based on official records.

[Soviet Ace]

Originally Posted by mondo

Kill/Loss records from both the Luftwaffe and USAF would disagree with your opinion The P47 was by far the safest combat aircraft of the war. Its loss rate to enemy aircraft is quite ridiculously low!

Thats a completely inaccurate blanket statement. The performance differences between say a G2 and G14 were extreme and the F2/4 model was outclassed completely by 1944. And by then P47's were using 150 grade fuel which gave a major performance boost at low and medium altitude and gave them a similar top speed and acceleration to match 109's used at that point like the G10 at any altitude. The 190 was more of a threat...as JG2 and JG26 were both equipped with them and very few 109's and met much of the initial threat posed by aircraft from the UK in 43/44.

You need to stop watching history channel and read some combat reports and some books based on official records.

Well, I haven't watched the History Channel for some years (Got rid of cable/satellite), so I couldn't tell you what they've been saying about the P47. Most of my knowledge about P47's either came from interview/documentaries with actual P47 Pilot(s) (i.e. Gabby Gabreski and a couple of others) or from several books about the P47. So if your not taking an actual P47 Ace's now how of how the plane was, then I just don't know?

All I was saying, was that against a smaller more nimble plane, the P47 would be chewed up. Not that it couldn't defend itself, just that in a turn and burn dogfight, the P47 was out of it element.

[mondo]

Originally Posted by Soviet Ace

All I was saying, was that against a smaller more nimble plane, the P47 would be chewed up. Not that it couldn't defend itself, just that in a turn and burn dogfight, the P47 was out of it element.

But it wasn't, the P47 relied on power/energy fighting and roll rate which was good throughout the speed range. Of cause if you start turning with a plane thats good at turning your going to end up in trouble unless you have a plan (again, something like a high speed yo yo would favour a P47D over a late 109G). Its as much about the pilot and the situation prior to combat as anything else but on an equal footing such a blanket statement is completely incorrect.

Every other plane is came up against was smaller than it yet it has the by far the best record of any plane during the war with the possible exception of the F6F which totally outclassed its opposition (again, a large aircraft vs a much smaller and better turning but poor rolling A6M).

[Soviet Ace]

I don't recall hearing that the A6M Zero had a bad roll rate. From the book I read: Samurai, about the highest scoring japanese Ace: Saburo Sakai. He said that the Zero was a great plane all around, just that without armor and heavy guns, it was in trouble. But he took on 6 F6F Hellcats during Iwo Jima, and out turned and rolled onto their tales before they could get a good shot at him.

[David603]

Originally Posted by Soviet Ace

But against the faster more nimble 109's the P47 was worked over.

When picking a 109 to fly, you are always trading speed for manoeuvrability, or vice versa. There is only one point in the 109s history where the next version was both faster and more manoeuverable than its predecessor, and that is the jump from the E to the F, which is rightly regarded as the point in the Bf109s history where it was most competitive compared to its contemporaries.