New planes requests (from other threads/please pin it)

[Marabekm]

Originally Posted by sniperton

Just a question, but does anybody positively know that the Ba-65 actually saw combat?

Yes it did, with 50th Stormo. At least through Operation Compass anyways. Problem was it was an older design. And its replacement, the Ba. 88 was shall we say not up to the task, so the Ba. 65 had stay past its time. Seems like they were in North Africa from June 1940 until February 1941.

Have a look at: A History of the Mediterranean Air War 1940 - 1945 Vol. 1


Also, have a look here: http://www.aeronautica.difesa.it/mus...mRO-37bis.aspx
that is the Italian Air Force museum. They have an actual Ro. 37 and A Cr-32(well the Spanish Version) on display. So who wants to take cockpit pictures? lol

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Marabekm

Yes it did, with 50th Stormo. At least through Operation Compass anyways. Problem was it was an older design. And its replacement, the Ba. 88 was shall we say not up to the task, so the Ba. 65 had stay past its time.

Basically, the Ba.65 was Italy's answer to the Neiman R-10, the Sukhoi Su-2, or the Fairey Battle. It was obsolete, not a great design to begin with, and used in small numbers against terrible odds by very brave/suicidal/foolhardy men.

The most effective Italian ground attack aircraft was the Ju-87 or the SM79. All the Regia Aeronautica's other ground attack aircraft were obsolete and/or outright dangerous to fly.

I'd also add the Ba.88 Lince to the list of Italian types commonly used in North Africa. But, it shouldn't be flyable. Instead, it would just be a static object which could be placed near airfields as a decoy.

[Marabekm]

The Ba. 65 performed well in the Spanish Civil war. As did the Cr. 32. This is what helped lull Italy into thinking its planes were good enough, and not much was designed between the Spanish Civil War and WW2.

The Ba. 88 was useless. On paper it was an all star, but in reality, not even close. Fully loaded, the Ba. 88 was not even capable of take-off. Even by reducing the ammunition carried, getting rid of the rear crewman, and reducing bomb loads did very little to help. So the Regia Aeronautica was forced to use the Ba. 65 (not a bad plane, just past its time- like the TBD Devastator) and Cr-32 in the ground attack role. Until Ju-87s arrived.

According to Mr. Sores (A History of the Mediterranean Air War) The Ba. 88s of 7 Gruppo arrived in North Africa on August 1940. Two days later only 1/3 of those that arrived were considered serviceable. Last combat mission of Ba. 88 was October 15th of the same year. But.... If someone wants to add it, go for it.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Marabekm

The Ba. 65 performed well in the Spanish Civil war. As did the Cr. 32. This is what helped lull Italy into thinking its planes were good enough, and not much was designed between the Spanish Civil War and WW2.

Yep. That, plus the inherent conservatism of the leaders of the Regia Aeronautica doomed Italian air power in WW2, although they were leaders in aviation in the 1920s and early 30s. But, to give Italy credit, its economy and industrial base wasn't that strong, so there were limits to what it could do. The Italians had some great planes, but never enough of them, and often far too late in arriving to do any good.

Originally Posted by Marabekm

The Ba. 88 was useless. On paper it was an all star, but in reality, not even close.

I think of it as being like the Brewster Buffalo - a good design destroyed by all the added equipment required to turn it into a combat aircraft.

I proposed just including it in the game as a static decoy aircraft because that was its historical role!

Were someone crazy enough to add a flyable Ba.88 to the game, I'd be more interested in the unarmed and unarmored prototype version. Potentially, it could have been used as a successful liaison or recon plane, or even as a high-speed target tug (all traditional roles for failed light bomber designs - see Bristol Buckingham). Another "what if" version is the Ba.88M with longer wings and up-rated engines. That might have potentially been a decent airplane.

[majorfailure]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

I think of it as being like the Brewster Buffalo - a good design destroyed by all the added equipment required to turn it into a combat aircraft.

Maybe the Italians should have given all of their Ba88 to the Finnish Airforce, the would have turned into some kind of super ground attack, best pilot destroying more tanks than Rudel.

[Marabekm]

Originally Posted by majorfailure

Maybe the Italians should have given all of their Ba88 to the Finnish Airforce, the would have turned into some kind of super ground attack, best pilot destroying more tanks than Rudel.

lol. Its true. Actually I think it had more to do with the fact that the Finnish Buffalo did not have all the extra armor for the pilots and self sealing tanks. RAF and Americans added all these extra features and performance dropped.

[Marabekm]

Not a new aircraft, but would be nice to be able to add France to the axis side for mission building. Vichy aircraft did fight against the RAF and initially against the American during the allied landings of Operation Torch.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by majorfailure

Maybe the Italians should have given all of their Ba88 to the Finnish Airforce, the would have turned into some kind of super ground attack, best pilot destroying more tanks than Rudel.

Perhaps the Ba.88 could have been a useful light bomber, but only if it carried nothing but a light bomb load and a pilot, and had just about all the combat equipment stripped from it.

It's good points were an overbuilt, very heavy structure (stressed to 12 G), 3 12.7 mm guns, and very good range for a ground attack plane (12 self-sealing fuel cells, 1640 km range). The bad points were that it was overweight not just due to combat equipment, but also utter lack of attention to weight reduction during design and production.

At best, if a team of very clever Finnish engineers got their hands on it, they'd turn it into something a bit like the Hs-129, but with less armor, lighter bomb load, and considerably less firepower. The obvious places to save weight would be to get rid of the rear gunner and remove at least half the fuel cells. Perhaps, they'd use captured Soviet engines with more power.

Even then, it would probably have ended up like the G.50 - an inferior plane kept in service long after its useful life, upgraded in small but clever ways, and used to maximum effect by a small but highly professional air force, along a quiet sector of the Eastern Front.