TBF Avenger and other planes

[nic727]

List of french aircrafts in WW2 :

http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircr...y-aircraft.asp

Didn't know they used german planes...

[Furio]

Originally Posted by RPS69

Your approach is a dogfight one.
On a campaign approach, someone must fly those secondary types you despise, but were much more important than pure fighter ones. They decided more battles than any fighter, and they represented life and death for fallen fighter pilots.
Try to read the german float plane missions over the black sea, or the storch scouting on the eastern front. Those guys got more balls and skill than any fighter pilot.

BTW, I agree that the french planes are really badly represented. One or two more types won't hurt, more than any british or american type.

And yes, obsolette or failure planes, like the fairey battle, were the only option available, and were what the pilots flyed at the time.

Trying to win a campaign with what there was available, is the real game.

There’s an example that demonstrates this concept beyond any doubt. Probably the single, most decisive dive-bomber attack took place at Midway, the battle in which a handful of SBD Dauntless pilots turned the tide of war. But their success was largely determined by VT8 squadron Devastators, hopelessly obsolete torpedo bombers equipped with unsuitable torpedoes. The Devastators were all shot down, but kept busy the Japanese Zeros, leaving their carriers defenceless against SBD. We can say that, acting as decoy, Devastators decided the battle no less than Dauntlesses.

Probably no one will ever want to fly a Devastator pilot career, and a flyable one would be a dispensable luxury, or a curiosity, but the AI only Devastator is, IMHO, one of best additions ever to TD era Il2, showing how much precious a secondary type can be.

[Furio]

Originally Posted by nic727

List of french aircrafts in WW2 :

http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircr...y-aircraft.asp

Didn't know they used german planes...

And Japanese, like the Ki43. Many of the types listed here entered service after Battle of France was over, in late war years with Vichy or Free French markings, or even after the war. On the contrary, many types that fought in 1940 are not listed.
Armée de l’Air had probably most types in front line service than any of the combatants, a true nightmare for logistics, repairs, pilot training and battle planning, and a contributing factor to France’s defeat.

[sniperton]

Many French planes exist as mods, but after the fall of France it's difficult to find a scenario where they actually saw combat. Initially both the Free French Air Force (FAFL) and the Vichy Air Force had French (and American) types, but only Vichy used them extensively, e.g. in Senegal (against the British), then in Syria (against the British), and finally in Morocco (against the western Allies). Most telling is the tally of a French ace pilot:

During his complicated combat career Pierre Le Gloan shot down 18 aircraft (4 German, 7 Italian and 7 British), which gave him the 4th position among the leading French flying aces of the war.

Anyway, the D.520 would be a useful addition, as several air forces used it in quantities over the years (France, Vichy France, Free France, Italy, Bulgaria).

[majorfailure]

Originally Posted by RPS69

Your approach is a dogfight one.
On a campaign approach, someone must fly those secondary types you despise, but were much more important than pure fighter ones. They decided more battles than any fighter, and they represented life and death for fallen fighter pilots.
Try to read the german float plane missions over the black sea, or the storch scouting on the eastern front. Those guys got more balls and skill than any fighter pilot.

Didn't say I despise them. And I know it is much much more difficult to get a good result in a slower "death trap" plane. And for a whole war, transports and recon for example play a much greater role as the tactical scenario of IL2 is capable of simulating. And as I see it, if you can do that mission in plane A that is way below the performance envelope of a contemporary fighter, it is possible and not that much different in plane B that has 10% more performance. For a fighter though these ten percent are more important IMHO.

Originally Posted by Furio

There’s an example that demonstrates this concept beyond any doubt. Probably the single, most decisive dive-bomber attack took place at Midway, the battle in which a handful of SBD Dauntless pilots turned the tide of war. But their success was largely determined by VT8 squadron Devastators, hopelessly obsolete torpedo bombers equipped with unsuitable torpedoes. The Devastators were all shot down, but kept busy the Japanese Zeros, leaving their carriers defenceless against SBD. We can say that, acting as decoy, Devastators decided the battle no less than Dauntlesses.

Probably no one will ever want to fly a Devastator pilot career, and a flyable one would be a dispensable luxury, or a curiosity, but the AI only Devastator is, IMHO, one of best additions ever to TD era Il2, showing how much precious a secondary type can be.

I see that differently:
It was a grave mistake to have own planes in the process of rearming while there was a potential American strike under way - and if doing so, then it was sheer folly to not have a massive CAP present.
The first enabled the enemy to strike the carriers with deadly force even with a few hits, the second made it highly propable for the above to happen.
The existing CAP beeing distracted by the Devastators for me is not as decisive (though it helped) - it would IMHO not have mattered if the CAP were at altitude -as three squads of dive bombers arrived nearly at the same time(some fine piloting on that day by American crews).
And it would likley have been enough to hit every carrier once/twice -Akagi as an example, and later in the war there were other carriers that sunk after one or two hits because the hits started inquenchable avgas fires.

[ElAurens]

One must also take into account the extremely poor IJN damage control procedures.

During the course of the war the IJN lost many ships that the USN or Royal Navy would have saved.

Also, don't disparage the TBD too much. It performed well at the Battle of the Coral Sea, and when it was introduced it was indeed the very best torpedo bomber on the planet, though that was a time when technology was in a state of rapid advancement when it came to aircraft design, to be sure.

[Furio]

Originally Posted by majorfailure

I see that differently:
It was a grave mistake to have own planes in the process of rearming while there was a potential American strike under way - and if doing so, then it was sheer folly to not have a massive CAP present.
The first enabled the enemy to strike the carriers with deadly force even with a few hits, the second made it highly propable for the above to happen.
The existing CAP beeing distracted by the Devastators for me is not as decisive (though it helped) - it would IMHO not have mattered if the CAP were at altitude -as three squads of dive bombers arrived nearly at the same time(some fine piloting on that day by American crews).
And it would likley have been enough to hit every carrier once/twice -Akagi as an example, and later in the war there were other carriers that sunk after one or two hits because the hits started inquenchable avgas fires.

Any disaster is the end result of a long series of mistakes, some minor, some major, some decisive. IMHO, Devastators at Midway were decisive, but even if they only helped, fact remains that secondary planes often play a major role. Il2 is so good, and still better than newer sims, because it already has several of these types. Some new ones will simply add to this richness. According to my taste, of course.

[IceFire]

Furio: Don't we have the Cant Z.506? We definitely got an Italian floatplane in the game now.

I'm at work otherwise I could check more quickly.

The Br.20 would be nice and a flyable G.55 and Re.2002 would be bonuses but otherwise the Italian airforce is well represented.

[Furio]

Originally Posted by ElAurens

Also, don't disparage the TBD too much. It performed well at the Battle of the Coral Sea, and when it was introduced it was indeed the very best torpedo bomber on the planet, though that was a time when technology was in a state of rapid advancement when it came to aircraft design, to be sure.

Of course you’re right. Obsolete doesn’t mean useless. Just think about the Swordfish. In comparison, the TBD was more than modern, but the Stringbag was probably the best scoring torpedo bomber of the whole war, and served to the last day in advanced roles such as night anti-submarine warfare.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Furio

Fiat BR20-BR20M. This type would complete the trio of main Italian bombers. It was used also by Japanese Army Air Force.
Cant Z506: a beautiful floatplane, widely and successfully employed.
Siai S82: a big transport, with long range and high load carrying capability. This is an important missing type by any means.

Good calls. I'd forgotten about them.

BR.20 would be a nice addition for Sino-Japanese and SCW campaigns. It also saw limited use during the battle of Kolhin Gol. But, only the Italians used the BR.20 during WW2, and only in limited numbers. So, maybe not a priority for an Italian WW2 order of battle.

Cant Z506: The Italians operated a lot of floatplanes and the Cant Z506 was one of the best. Later, some were operated by the Germans, and few were used as far away as the Baltic. Definitely needed for a Mediterranean focused anti-shipping campaign, although in appearance and role, it might duplicate the He-115.

Saia S82: A major mid-war transport aircraft, extensively used by the Germans as well as the Italians. But, in appearance and role, it's somewhat similar to the Ju-52.[/QUOTE]