TBF Avenger and other planes

[Furio]

Originally Posted by sniperton

More disturbing is what they did produce in large quantities and we've never complained about. These are the plane types (without trainers) they had in larger numbers (>100). Type / role / year entering service / number of aircraft built:

Reggiane Re.2002	fighter	1942	140
Breda Ba.88	fighter / bomber	1938	149
Caproni Ca.111	reconnaissance	1933	152
Fiat RS.14	reconnaissance	1941	186
Caproni Ca.310	reconnaissance / bomber	1938	193
IMAM Ro.43	reconnaissance	1935	193
Macchi M.C.205V	fighter	1943	199
Breda Ba.65	ground attack	1937	200
Caproni Ca.314	bomber / maritime patrol	1942	200
Junkers Ju 87B-2 & D-1	dive bomber	1940	210
Messerschmitt Bf 109G/K	fighter	1943	225
Fiat B.R.20	bomber	1936	233
Caproni Ca.309	reconnaissance	n/a	243
Reggiane Re.2001	fighter	1941	243
Fiat B.R.20M	bomber	1936	279
Caproni Ca.164	liaison		280
Caproni Ca.311	bomber	1939	284
CANT Z.506B	maritime patrol / bomber	1939	314
Savoia-Marchetti SM.84	bomber	1941	329
Caproni Ca.313	bomber	n/a	338
SAIMAN 202	liaison	1939	390
Caproni Ca.133	transport / bomber	1935	443
CANT Z.501	maritime patrol	1936	454
Savoia-Marchetti SM.81	bomber	1935	534
CANT Z.1007	bomber	1939	582
IMAM Ro.37	reconnaissance	1935	617
Fiat G.50	fighter	1938	683
Savoia-Marchetti SM.82	transport / bomber	1940	726
Fiat C.R.32	fighter	1933	1052
Macchi M.C.200	fighter	1939	1151
Savoia-Marchetti SM.79	bomber / transport	1936	1240
Macchi M.C.202	fighter	1941	1351
Fiat C.R.42	fighter	1939	1551

I suspect other air forces would be not much different if scrutinized.

Looking a little more in depth, the situation is not bad as described, at least for what I know and IMHO.

I divided the listed types in four groups. The first one comprises types never or little used in combat, or that had an indifferent career. We can live without them, IMHO.
Breda 88: a total failure.
Caproni 111: retired as combat type before WWII.
Caproni Ca 310: operated in small numbers over Libia.
Caproni Ca309: a minor type, in the same class as the Avro Anson.
Caproni Ca164: similar to the Tiger Moth.
Siai SM84: designed to replace the SM79, it was actually inferior.
Saiman 202: a lightplane used for training and liaison.
IMAM Ro37: an obsolete recon type, little more than fighter fodder.
Caproni Ca133: obsolete by 1940, never used operationally in WWII.
Fiat CR32: in the same class as Gloster Gauntlet. It was even more obsolete than its replacement, the CR42.
To this list, I would add:
Re 2005, a beautiful fighter with very, very short operational career.
Piaggio P108, the only Italian four engine heavy bomber.

The second group lists interesting, but not particularly important types. All of these, IMHO are not a priority by any means.
Reggiane 2001: an unremarkable performing fighter.
IMAM Ro 43: shipborne floatplane. Limited use.
Breda Ba65. An obsolete attack type, employed in Spain and North Africa.
Caproni Ca 311-313-314. An interesting light bomber-recon, mainly employed in secondary roles.
Fiat RS14. That’s an interesting floatplane, but the CANT Z506 was more widely used.
Cant Z501: An interesting flying boat, mainly used in rescue role.
Siai S81: an obsolete bomber by 1940, it was mainly used for night sorties. Relegated to transport role, it saw service in Finland, with Italian crews and Luftwaffe markings up to 1944. A minor, but interesting type.

The third group lists important types really deserving – IMHO – to be included: as you can see, it’s a short list.
Fiat BR20-BR20M. This type would complete the trio of main Italian bombers. It was used also by Japanese Army Air Force.
Cant Z506: a beautiful floatplane, widely and successfully employed.
Siai S82: a big transport, with long range and high load carrying capability. This is an important missing type by any means.

The fourth group lists types already present, flyable or AI:
Fiat G50: flyable.
Macchi 200, 202 and 205: flyable.
SM79: flyable.
Fiat CR42: flyable.
Cantz 1007: AI.
Re2002: AI.
To this list, must be added the Fiat G55, AI.

Conclusion: in my opinion, Regia Aeronautica is well represented, with most major combat types already available. I would love to see the same ratio for RAF.

[gaunt1]

I'd add one more italian type: Ca-135. As far as I know, hungarians used it against soviets.

[IceFire]

Furio: Don't we have the Cant Z.506? We definitely got an Italian floatplane in the game now.

I'm at work otherwise I could check more quickly.

The Br.20 would be nice and a flyable G.55 and Re.2002 would be bonuses but otherwise the Italian airforce is well represented.

[sniperton]

Originally Posted by Furio

Conclusion: in my opinion, Regia Aeronautica is well represented, with most major combat types already available. I would love to see the same ratio for RAF.

I completely agree, but my point was different. Sure we can't have all the planes, sure we don't need those not used, and sure we don't want the obsolate ones. This latter is my concern, the cannon fodder types, together with secondary role aircraft.

Air war is something like a grand opera, with many no-name musicians and backstage workers facilitating the performance, but we only pay attention to the primadonnas. This is okay so far as we play Il-2 as a tactical combat simulation, but if you try to create a dynamic campaign, you'll need some transports, recons, liaison aircrafts, and all those obsolate planes that the given nation used as light bombers to harrass troops, etc.

In this sense only the German and the Soviet plane-set is really well represented. For the rest, there are important functional roles not covered at all. Italy is a good case in point as it is generally well represented, but it still lacks a transport, a recon, an attack plane, and a light bomber.

I don't argue for particular planes. I simply say that this great game would really deserve more than just two basic transport types, and the like. I know that they are only the stage set for the grand opera performance, but still they are important IMHO.

[gaunt1]

Originally Posted by sniperton

In this sense only the German and the Soviet plane-set is really well represented.

I dont agree fully with the German planeset. Bomber force is awfully represented. Also we missing a few other important planes too: Bf-110C4 flyable, Bf-110F, Ju-88C, Me-410 for example.

[sniperton]

Originally Posted by gaunt1

I dont agree fully with the German planeset. Bomber force is awfully represented. Also we missing a few other important planes too: Bf-110C4 flyable, Bf-110F, Ju-88C, Me-410 for example.

What I meant is that although some important individual types might be missing, the main roles are covered, so that if you need a transport, you have one, if you need a recon, you have one, if you need a light bomber, you have one, etc, etc.

[DuxCorvan]

Of all the nations involved, French planes are probably the most underrepresented in the game.

[sniperton]

Originally Posted by DuxCorvan

Of all the nations involved, French planes are probably the most underrepresented in the game.

This has something to do with the fact that France surrendered after 4 weeks, a very short timespan for French planes to see combat on the allied side. Vichy France as an axis country would be a different story (e.g. against Britain). The Free French mostly used British and American equipment. Some French planes like the D.520 were used by Italy, Romania, and Bulgaria, and it would be great indeed to have them (as we do have those used by Finland).

[Furio]

Originally Posted by sniperton

This has something to do with the fact that France surrendered after 4 weeks, a very short timespan for French planes to see combat on the allied side. Vichy France as an axis country would be a different story (e.g. against Britain). The Free French mostly used British and American equipment. Some French planes like the D.520 were used by Italy, Romania, and Bulgaria, and it would be great indeed to have them (as we do have those used by Finland).

Add an unbelievable variety of types, as the Armée de l’Air was caught in the middle of an almost complete reorganization, with many squadron replacing their obsolete types. They probably fielded five fighter types (Ms406, D.520, Mb151, C.714, Curtiss Hawk) and had many more under development and production, such as the Arsenal Vg33. For bombers, it was even worse: Amiot 143 and 340, Bloch 131, 175 and 210, Breguet 693, Farman F222 and 223, Loire Nieuport LN401, Lioré et Olivier Leo 451, plus Douglas DB7 and Martin Baltimore…

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by sniperton

This has something to do with the fact that France surrendered after 4 weeks, a very short timespan for French planes to see combat on the allied side.

To be fair to the French, the Armee de l'Air held its own against the Luftwaffe, but ultimately was defeated because the French Army and the BEF couldn't stand against the Blitzkrieg.

There's plenty of fun flight simming to be had with "what if" campaigns where the German advance hadn't been quite so swift or well-managed, and/or where the French had sorted out their logistical and labor relations problems sooner. That would allow for longer campaigns, or campaigns where players can fly French aircraft that were only produced in limited numbers or which were still on the drawing board in early 1940.