4.13 development update discussion and feedback

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by IceFire

I know what you mean with this but I think this would be useful in cases where the gun has actually jammed (perhaps due to overheating or reliability issues) which isn't in IL-2 1946 right now. The guns jammed is really because the gun mechanism or the barrel was "destroyed".

I agree that there's really no good way to realistically model gun damage in IL2, largely because it would have to dynamically track ammo in ammo trays. Given the work that would entail, it would be effort better spent to model fuel transfer and dynamic CoG.

The second issue I mentioned is a bit more doable, since occasionally you'll get a gun jam result without damage, especially if you shoot in a high G turn. To my mind, that indicates a simple stoppage which could potentially be cleared.

IL2 doesn't model gun stoppage due to gun overheat. You can hold down the trigger all day (at least with unlimited ammo) and the guns will keep shooting.

What IL2 could possibly do, although it would require lots of DM work, is distinguish between the gun and feed mechanisms and the ammo supply. Once you've got that modeled, you can then have three types of gun hits: "Gun destroyed," "delayed gun destroyed" or "jam."

Gun destroyed represents an unfixable hit to the gun or ammo feed mechanisms which instantly renders the weapon unusable.

Delayed gun destroyed represents damage to ammunition or ammo feed mechanisms which will make the gun stop working at some point in the future. Basically, you lose some percentage of your remaining ammo, or the gun stops working after x more seconds of shooting. There might be a small chance that you could unjam such a problem.

Jam represents a simple stoppage, or a damaged bullet which can be fixed by recharging the guns.

While it might not be best practice, the quick(ish) and dirty method of getting more accuracy in gun hits would be to just assign percentages to each kind of hit, perhaps based on bullet type.

For example, a hit by a heavy MG bullet might have a 60% chance of a gun destroyed result, 35% chance of delayed gun destroyed, an 5% chance of stoppage, while a light MG bullet might have a 40% chance of gun destroyed, 25% chance of delayed gun destroyed and 35% chance of stoppage. No actual data for any of these things, though, I'm making up numbers here.

Originally Posted by IceFire

So what we'd need first is reliability type things (length of firing duration, heating, etc.) implemented and then another mechanism to unjam them.

A bit of research shows that the problem of overheating is actually hugely overrated - at least for WW2 and later aircraft weapons. I know that this is contrary to popular wisdom, but bear with me.

Realistically, an airplane just doesn't carry enough ammo for the barrel to overheat to the point where it destroys the barrel. Machine gun manuals since WW2 are pretty consistent that you can shoot for up to a minute on full auto before you need to change the barrel. But, most aircraft only carry enough ammo for 5-30 seconds of full auto fire. So, in most cases, you don't have enough ammo to overheat the gun. (That said, for optimum barrel life, gunners tried to keep their bursts short - 2-3 seconds normally, 6-9 seconds maximum.)

Second, the steel used to make the barrels is designed to stay tough at up to thousands of degrees C, and there actually isn't enough energy generated by the bullets and propellants to melt the barrel. There's a huge difference between abusing the gun to the level that the barrel needs to be replaced and abusing it to the point that you blow up the gun or physically melt the barrel.

As an example:

[IceFire]

Interesting. I had always read about how pilots were told to fire in short bursts... not because it was better for aiming but for the barrels themselves. Maybe it was for preserving them over service use rather than in combat stoppage... I don't know.

Anyways, I think it's good and interesting stuff to think about.

[stugumby]

Primary cause of mg stoppages is failure to extract,then failure to feed. M2 50 cal is known to heat up and rip the rim off the cartridge case, bolt goes back case gets rim ripped away and fails to extract. Next cartridge is already removed from link and gets shoved into hole from previous casing stuck in chamber. Now fails to feed,you can try to recharge but not gonna work since rimless brass can't be extracted. Will need ruptured casing tool and remove barell to fix.
M2 fires from a closed not open bolt.

[KG26_Alpha]

I have asked many times for Mg's and cannon to be modeled more historically, after the bomb loadouts were messed about with the fighters weapons were never "corrected" you can currently unload all mg's with no penalty.

Cheers

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by KG26_Alpha

I have asked many times for Mg's and cannon to be modeled more historically, after the bomb loadouts were messed about with the fighters weapons were never "corrected" you can currently unload all mg's with no penalty.

Cheers

Probably a lot of time spent on the bombing features that were heavily requested. Not as many people think about the gunnery.

There's still the issue of a half dozen weapons not actually having been modeled. The Japanese aircraft are the worst in this respect... the two very different Type 99 cannons (99-1 and 99-2) are both represented by the MG-FF/M in code. The Type 89 machine guns are either a Vickers K or a MG17 depending on the aircraft. It's not even consistent... for the longest time the Ki-43-II had Browning .50cals with yellow tracers instead of the very same Ho-103 machine gun that the earlier Ki-43 and other Japanese Army aircraft had.

That all blows my mind They really coded Pacific Fighters in a hurry with little research. Some Russian types were badly setup too... those have been fixed thankfully.

[przybysz86]

One item that just came to me while playing.

There is no axis control for "Left engines" and "right engines"
I can control each engine separately - that is fine in 2-engin birds but in PE-8 i cannot really trim yaw by putting slight difference in power to one side.

I can do this by mapping "select lef/right/all engines" to buttons/keys and I do so. Beacuse of this inability to control left/right power via axis multi throttle controls is useless for me and I do not plan to invest in throttle quadrant just to be used on 1-2 planes (+B24 in future).

I prefer to keep second throttle to set pitch insetad.

[Pfeil]

Originally Posted by przybysz86

One item that just came to me while playing.

There is no axis control for "Left engines" and "right engines"

Is this what you're looking for?

Originally Posted by 4.11 Guide

Smart Axis
Dual throttle has turned out to be little problematic if player has only two throttles and plane
has more than two engines. Normally if player has dual throttle, he has power 1 and power 2
mapped and old power (all) axis unmapped. If player wants to fly plane with more engines
that two, he needs to go to controls menu and map one of the throttle axis to the old power
axis which controls all engines.
When the smart axis feature is enabled and user has only power 1 & 2 mapped and plane has
four engines, the power 1 handles both left side engines and power 2 both right side engines.
With three engine planes, the center engine gets average value of both levers. Prop pitch
works similar way.
To enable this feature, add following in conf.ini under [rts] section.
[rts]
UseSmartAxis=1

[TinyTim]

Originally Posted by IceFire

Probably a lot of time spent on the bombing features that were heavily requested. Not as many people think about the gunnery.

There's still the issue of a half dozen weapons not actually having been modeled. The Japanese aircraft are the worst in this respect... the two very different Type 99 cannons (99-1 and 99-2) are both represented by the MG-FF/M in code. The Type 89 machine guns are either a Vickers K or a MG17 depending on the aircraft. It's not even consistent... for the longest time the Ki-43-II had Browning .50cals with yellow tracers instead of the very same Ho-103 machine gun that the earlier Ki-43 and other Japanese Army aircraft had.

That all blows my mind They really coded Pacific Fighters in a hurry with little research. Some Russian types were badly setup too... those have been fixed thankfully.

It's been and still is a mess, I concur. To mention one more glaring inaccuracy - Ki-45 historically carried a Ho-3 20mm cannon, but in the sim Ho-5 is modelled in its place. The difference between the two is something like the difference between Mk108 and 103: 20 x 94 (84.5 g) vs 20 x 125 (164 g).

Luckily a fix for this is mentioned in 4.13.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by TinyTim

It's been and still is a mess, I concur. To mention one more glaring inaccuracy - Ki-45 historically carried a Ho-3 20mm cannon, but in the sim Ho-5 is modelled in its place. The difference between the two is something like the difference between Mk108 and 103: 20 x 94 (84.5 g) vs 20 x 125 (164 g).

Luckily a fix for this is mentioned in 4.13.

Good catch. I didn't know about that one but I'm sure the guy who put together the Ki-45 clearly did but it took some extra time to get the gun sources into place I imagine.

I've been hunting for reliable information on the Type 99-1 and 99-2 but no luck.

[Plane-Eater]

Originally Posted by stugumby

Primary cause of mg stoppages is failure to extract,then failure to feed. M2 50 cal is known to heat up and rip the rim off the cartridge case, bolt goes back case gets rim ripped away and fails to extract. Next cartridge is already removed from link and gets shoved into hole from previous casing stuck in chamber. Now fails to feed,you can try to recharge but not gonna work since rimless brass can't be extracted. Will need ruptured casing tool and remove barell to fix.
M2 fires from a closed not open bolt.

The main concerns with prolonged bursts aren't barrel damage (although dumping the entire belt isn't great for the barrel), it's runaway guns in closed-bolt weapons like the M2. The chamber heats up enough that when the next cartridge is fed into place, it overheats and fires without the hammer dropping, which cycles the weapon and causes another round to feed, which fires... you get the idea.

The Korean-era P-51 pilots manual explains burst lengths and runaway gun heat issues.