4.12.2 de-bugging

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by ElAurens

Happens to the Spitfire and P 40 with some regularity, more so in the P40s.

The props never come off, but they will seize the engine fairly quickly.

I assumed that was just a "special effect" of critical damage to the crankcase, since realistically it takes more than just a few seconds for the crankshaft to heat to the point that it fails. But, yeah, the "whine of death" is one of my least favorite sounds to hear when flying a P-40 or a Spit.

At least you get a warning with those planes. With the Bf-109, the first warning you get that your engine is dead is a shut-down propeller blade in front of you.

[Pursuivant]

Tonight's fighter abuse features the Hurricane Mk I vs. the Ace Wellington III squadron.

Notable features of craptastic damage modeling include both elevator and rudder control hits despite the fact that none of the bullets got anywhere near any part of the elevator and/or rudder controls! To hit any part of the elevator or rudder controls, the four bullets which hit the leading edges of the horizontal stabilizer assembly would have had to punch through several layers of aluminum and then wipe out the cables and pulleys for both elevators and the control rods and pulleys for the rudder. The only problem is that those assemblies are directly below the vertical stabilizer, where none of the bullets hit, and that the control rods for the rudder and the cables and pulleys for the elevators are in different places!

Just to clarify, we're talking about hits by .303 bullets at 150-250 m ranges; so no explosive effects, and a bullet that's not particularly likely to shatter or tumble.

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/attachm...1&d=1404019896

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/attachm...1&d=1404020213

The serious oil and coolant leaks from just one bullet to the radiator and 3 bullets to to the engine are just bonuses.

In general, it seems to be far too easy to get control surface hits against just about any plane in IL2. Given that most early WW2 planes used metal cables to control the surfaces and only a close hit by explosives or a direct hit by a bullet could knock them out, it seems like sloppy damage modeling that they occur so often.

I also seems strange that direct damage to control surfaces doesn't reduce control authority, and that direct hits to control surface hinges don't have the ability to make individual control surfaces lock, move in just one direction, or flutter randomly.

There also doesn't seem to be any progressive loss of control authority due to hydraulic system damage to planes with hydraulic or hydraulic assisted controls.

Finally, AI crew seem far too ready to bail out of planes with any sort of control damage, despite the fact that losing rudder authority, and possibly even elevator authority, doesn't make a plane unflyable. At the very least, AI crews which lose rudder control, and possibly horizontal stabilizer control, should try to fly back to friendly territory before they bail out.

[Pursuivant]

Bonus tonight; two rounds of fighter abuse, with the second victim being the Yak-9UT. The damage is from that immortal Ace Wellington III squadron, with their crazy accurate tail gunners, shooting from 150-250 m.

Two things pop out for crappy damage modeling on this plane, bonus points if you can catch them both.

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/attachm...1&d=1404023815

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/attachm...1&d=1404023815

You win if you detected a distinct lack of engine damage to the notably fragile VK-107 engine despite it being filled with holes (Hint to TD: a P-40, Spitfire or Bf-109 would be a glider given the same amount of damage), and damage to the rudder controls despite any plausible hits to the joystick, cable runs or control cranks in the first screenshot.

In the second screenie, you win if you noticed damage to the pilot's leg despite a) the bullets that could have inflicted the damage having to penetrate the engine and forward firewall first, b) missing the pilot's leg!

The hit to the aileron controls in the second screenshot was just, conceivably, maybe possible, since two bullets hit the trailing edge of the starboard wing in approximately the same place where the aileron control cables would run. The idea of a bullet about 9mm in diameter perfectly intersecting with a braided metal cable of about the same diameter to sever it is highly unlikely, but in combat anything can happen!

Of course, it's only due to the magic of IL2's damage modeling that our unfortunate Yak pilot lost control to both ailerons despite cable hits to just one of them! Had this been a real Yak-9, he would have had one aileron cable that fluttered randomly, and another one that still responded to his control.

[majorfailure]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Finally, AI crew seem far too ready to bail out of planes with any sort of control damage, despite the fact that losing rudder authority, and possibly even elevator authority, doesn't make a plane unflyable. At the very least, AI crews which lose rudder control, and possibly horizontal stabilizer control, should try to fly back to friendly territory before they bail out.

IMHO AI should try to asses the damage and consider flying to friendly territiory in these situations, given the plane is still controlable enough.
Maybe even try to land with rudder or aileron gone.

And keep testing the DM's - explains a lot of strange things happening.
(I always thought in an IL-2 you were invulnerable to machinegun fire. Till recently got shot&wounded by a Bf110 gunner. )

[Pursuivant]

I finally got a chance to abuse the P-38, specifically the P-38H.

Thanks to TD's recent rework of this plane, it DM actually isn't that bad, although it is still far too vulnerable to control and machine gun hits.

There are no gaps between the armor glass and the armor plate - if a .303 bullet hits the armor glass, it gets stopped. If it hits armor plate, it gets stopped.

Fuel tank hits by single rifle caliber bullets actually seal after 30-60 seconds. Hits by multiple rifle caliber bullets in the same place will quickly cause a fire, but that's not unreasonable if one of the bullets is explosive or incendiary.

The engine damage model looks good - a bullet that hits the oil cooler or radiator will cause a leak, bullets that come close but miss don't. Once a leak starts, you get several minutes of flying time before overheat, and about 5 minutes of flying time before the engine starts to really suffer. You lose some power due to engine hits, but not much. It seems like it takes a LOT of damage to make an engine stop cold.

If anything, engine durability is a bit too generous; more along the lines of the P-39 than the P-40. But, at least you can lose power and actually damage the engine due to overheating, unlike the P-39.


But, here are the problems.

Control hits - like many planes in the game they are too easy to achieve, and can occur even when bullets don't hit anyplace close to control runs.

The only way I can explain it is that the game doesn't take the presence of full fuel tanks into account when determining bullet trajectories. That is, it counts fuel tanks as "empty space" rather than being filled with liquid which will slow or stop a bullet.

Likewise, the game doesn't take into account that there are layers of aluminum between a hit to the leading edge of the wing and the trailing edge, which might slow a small caliber bullet or a bit of shrapnel, or make it shatter.

Machine Gun Hits - At face value, it seems like good damage modeling to have any hit to the P-38's guns cause a jam. There's a lot of guns and ammo packed into the P-38's nose, and no armor plate in front of them or to the side, so any bullet hitting that area is likely to cause some sort of problem.

But, most of that space is taken up with ammunition. That means that there's a fair chance you'll get just one or two rounds of ammunition that are damaged by the passing bullet. This might cause an immediate jam the bullet deforms the feed chutes or ammo containers sufficiently that the bullets can't advance, but it's more likely to just create a dud bullet which will cause a jam at some time in the future.

So, for just about any hit to ammo runs by shrapnel and small caliber bullets, there should be the possibility of a) immediate stoppage/dead gun, b) unfixable stoppage after X amount of the gun's remaining ammo is fired, c) fixable stoppage after X amount of gun's remaining ammo is fired.

Hits by big bullets, explosions, and large pieces of shrapnel should create a very high chance of immediate unfixable stoppage, but with a tiny chance of the other two possibilities.

Edit: There's also two more options:

d) No effective damage. That is, the bullet hits some part of the bullet feed mechanisms or magazines which aren't currently occupied by ammunition, or otherwise manages to pass through the vital area without doing any serious damage. For example, if you shoot 50% of your ammo, and then you get a machine gun hit, the game currently treats it identically to a hit on the ammunition before you fired a shot, even though there's a 50% chance that the bullet actually just hit empty space.

e) Bang! Some sort of ammo explosion. This is extremely unlikely, even for cannon shells, but it could happen. To complicate fuel fires for tanks close to ammunition magazines, there's also the possibility of a fire causing bullets or shells to "cook off" - exploding due to heat.

A final problem which appears to be unique to the P-38 is that you can get machine gun hits for guns which have already been knocked out. That is, if both your starboard MG get hit, and you get a third bullet into a starboard machine gun, the DM counts it as a hit to a port-side machine gun!

Supercharger Hits - IL2 doesn't model supercharger damage. The P-38's turbocharger is mounted on top of the engine, with a very vulnerable flywheel protected by just an aluminum deflector and a tiny bit of armor plate on the inner side of the engines - mostly designed to keep flywheel blades from hitting the pilot. I got a few hits which realistically would have really wrecked the supercharger.

Engine Control Hits: The P-38, like other multi-engined planes had cable runs to the engine, which control things like radiator louvers, prop pitch and throttle. They're right behind the reserve fuel tanks in the inboard wing and are ripe targets for damage to the wing. But, IL2 doesn't model such things.

Here are pictures of the carnage:

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/attachm...1&d=1404087241

The obligatory picture of long-range sniper shots by the Ace Wellington III gunners. Two hits, two machine guns down. Typically, flying the P-38 as an interceptor results in your losing half your guns in the first few attack runs!

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/attachm...1&d=1404087241

Same flight a few seconds later. Notice a bit of engine damage to the port engine, but also another couple of bullets in the nose that took out another machine gun. The problem is, none of those bullets could have taken out the remaining two starboard machine guns, or their ammo reservoirs!

So, still 300 m out on my first attack run and I've lost 3/4 of my machine guns!

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/attachm...1&d=1404087241

Same attack run, closer in. Crummy screenshot due to a pilot kill. Unless you go straight in at an enemy bomber the P-38 is a flying coffin because the gunners not unreasonably aim directly at the plane's center of mass; which is the cockpit.

Mind you, I'm not complaining about the PK, which I think was fair. I chose this one because I think it illustrates how easy it is to get control hits. None of the bullets came anyplace close to hitting the control runs. (Damage to the nose would have had to penetrate 1/4 to 3/8 inch - 6-10 mm - of armor plate to hit the rudder pedals or rudder pedals in the cockpit.) Furthermore, the P-38 has twin rudders, and virtually all of the damage is to plane's port side.

Realistically, assuming that just one cable run was severed, you'd get just the port side rudder fluttering or jammed, but the starboard rudder might still work. It would have to be remarkable luck or skill for less than a dozen .303 bullets to completely disable the plane's rudder control!

[Tempest123]

"Control hits - like many planes in the game they are too easy to achieve, and can occur even when bullets don't hit anyplace close to control runs."

Totally agree about this on more than a few planes, single bullets taking out ailerons and rudders etc. Hitting exactly the cable or rod would be possible but rare, probably more common to have Flak damage the sheet metal and jam the control surface.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Tempest123

Totally agree about this on more than a few planes, single bullets taking out ailerons and rudders etc. Hitting exactly the cable or rod would be possible but rare, probably more common to have Flak damage the sheet metal and jam the control surface.

Furthermore, there are exactly ZERO places on your average WW2 airplane where a single bullet - even a big one - can simultaneously wipe out rudder, ailerons and elevators, yet it happens occasionally in IL2.

You also bring up another control damage option I forgot to mention - limited range of motion for damaged control surfaces.

Currently, you have loss of control surfaces, complete loss of control of control surfaces, and partial loss of authority from control surfaces. But, you don't have limited range of motion from damaged controls, such as a rudder that you can only turn right, or which only travels through 50% of its full arc when turned to the right.

[western0221]

4.12 made a new great function, multi-turret tanks.
I'm glad in this implement.

Today's bug report is T-35 tank's weapon parameters.
T-35 has 5x turrets and in 4.12 they all work.
But thier parameters are not correct.
T-35's armaments were
- 1x 75mm cannon
- 2x 45mm cannon
- 2x 7.62mm machine-gun
in historical.
In 4.12.2 , all 5x turrets are set as 75mm cannon.
Please remap armaments.

[Tempest123]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Furthermore, there are exactly ZERO places on your average WW2 airplane where a single bullet - even a big one - can simultaneously wipe out rudder, ailerons and elevators, yet it happens occasionally in IL2.

You also bring up another control damage option I forgot to mention - limited range of motion for damaged control surfaces.

Currently, you have loss of control surfaces, complete loss of control of control surfaces, and partial loss of authority from control surfaces. But, you don't have limited range of motion from damaged controls, such as a rudder that you can only turn right, or which only travels through 50% of its full arc when turned to the right.

Yup, I would like to see the instant disabling effect (which is a little arcade IMHO unless the whole surface is blown off) replaced with degrees of limited movement, i.e 20% to 70% (or whatever) of total movement through the full range of motion to simulate damaged surfaces.

[Pursuivant]

I finally got a chance to abuse the P-38, specifically the P-38H.

Thanks to TD's recent rework of this plane, it DM actually isn't that bad, although it is still far too vulnerable to control and machine gun hits.

There are no gaps between the armor glass and the armor plate - if a .303 bullet hits the armor glass, it gets stopped. If it hits armor plate, it gets stopped.

Fuel tank hits by single rifle caliber bullets actually seal after 30-60 seconds. Hits by multiple rifle caliber bullets in the same place will quickly cause a fire, but that's not unreasonable if one of the bullets is explosive or incendiary.

The engine damage model looks good - a bullet that hits the oil cooler or radiator will cause a leak, bullets that come close but miss don't. Once a leak starts, you get several minutes of flying time before overheat, and about 5 minutes of flying time before the engine starts to really suffer. You lose some power due to engine hits, but not much. It seems like it takes a LOT of damage to make an engine stop cold.

If anything, engine durability is a bit too generous; more along the lines of the P-39 than the P-40. But, at least you can lose power and actually damage the engine due to overheating, unlike the P-39.


But, here are the problems.

Control hits - like many planes in the game they are too easy to achieve, and can occur even when bullets don't hit anyplace close to control runs.

The only way I can explain it is that the game doesn't take the presence of full fuel tanks into account when determining bullet trajectories. That is, it counts fuel tanks as "empty space" rather than being filled with liquid which will slow or stop a bullet.

Likewise, the game doesn't take into account that there are layers of aluminum between a hit to the leading edge of the wing and the trailing edge, which might slow a small caliber bullet or a bit of shrapnel, or make it shatter.

Machine Gun Hits - At face value, it seems like good damage modeling to have any hit to the P-38's guns cause a jam. There's a lot of guns and ammo packed into the P-38's nose, and no armor plate in front of them or to the side, so any bullet hitting that area is likely to cause some sort of problem.

But, most of that space is taken up with ammunition. That means that there's a fair chance you'll get just one or two rounds of ammunition that are damaged by the passing bullet. This might cause an immediate jam the bullet deforms the feed chutes or ammo containers sufficiently that the bullets can't advance, but it's more likely to just create a dud bullet which will cause a jam at sometime in the future.

So, for just about any hit to ammo runs by shrapnel and small caliber bullets, there should be the possibility of a) immediate stoppage/dead gun, b) unfixable stoppage after X amount of the gun's ammo is fired, c) fixable stoppage after X amount of gun's ammo is fired.

Hits by big bullets, explosions, and large pieces of shrapnel should create a very high chance of immediate unfixable stoppage, but with a tiny chance of the other two possibilities.

A final problem which appears to be unique to the P-38 is that you can get machine gun hits for guns which have already been knocked out. That is, if both your starboard MG get hit, and you get a third bullet into a starboard machine gun, the DM counts it as a hit to a port-side machine gun!

Supercharger Hits - IL2 doesn't model supercharger damage. The P-38's turbocharger is mounted on top of the engine, with a very vulnerable flywheel protected by just an aluminum deflector and a tiny bit of armor plate on the inner side of the engines - mostly designed to keep flywheel blades from hitting the pilot. I got a few hits which realistically would have really wrecked the supercharger.

Engine Control Hits: The P-38, like other multi-engined planes had cable runs to the engine, which control things like radiator louvers, prop pitch and throttle. They're right behind the reserve fuel tanks in the inboard wing and are ripe targets for damage to the wing. But, IL2 doesn't model such things.

Here are pictures of the carnage:

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/attachm...1&d=1404087241

The obligatory picture of long-range sniper shots by the Ace Wellington III gunners. Two hits, two machine guns down. Typically, flying the P-38 as an interceptor results in your losing half your guns in the first few attack runs!

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/attachm...1&d=1404087241

Same flight a few seconds later. Notice a bit of engine damage to the port engine, but also another couple of bullets in the nose that took out another machine gun. The problem is, none of those bullets could have taken out the remaining two starboard machine guns, or their ammo reservoirs!

So, still 300 m out on my first attack run and I've lost 3/4 of my machine guns!

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/attachm...1&d=1404087241

Same attack run, closer in. Crummy screenshot due to a pilot kill. Unless you go straight in at an enemy bomber the P-38 is a flying coffin because the gunners not unreasonably aim directly at the plane's center of mass; which is the cockpit.

Mind you, I'm not complaining about the PK, which I think was fair. I chose this one because I think it illustrates how easy it is to get control hits. None of the bullets came anyplace close to hitting the control runs. (Damage to the nose would have had to penetrate 1/4 to 3/8 inch - 6-10 mm - of armor plate to hit the rudder pedals or rudder pedals in the cockpit.) Furthermore, the P-38 has twin rudders, and virtually all of the damage is to plane's port side.

Realistically, assuming that just one cable run was severed, you'd get just the port side rudder fluttering or jammed, but the starboard rudder might still work. It would have to be remarkable luck or skill for less than a dozen .303 bullets to completely disable the plane's rudder control!